Hehe, Razer. I really appreciate your efforts and others as well, Krauser and Zellogs. But how many times can we say the same thing to people who act with emotion over and over again? They want Diablo 3 to be Diablo 3 all over again because it makes them giddy. Instead of facing facts that Diablo 2's economy was messed up from the get-go and I'm 100% positive that wasn't Blizzard's intention at all. We can only hope that a Blizzard dev will understand the ramifications if they don't implement some kind of system.
lol NP, bro. It's my pleasure to argue for something I truly believe in. You know what, I'm just glad to know that some of the people in this thread aren't working for Blizzard! I'm confident the Blizzard team will know how to regulate the economy.
You did not answer my question, though. -_-'
How do you justify, flavor-wise (in retrospect, this is a term from MtG, so that is probably why you did not understand), BoE?
Basically, under what logic makes equipment untransferable? Not why, as in why it should be like that, but why, as in why would it work like that.
Stop reading here if you understand what I am asking.
If you still do not understand, an analogy would be something like: Why does a butterfly fly?
Answer A = What you are giving me, something like - it is easier for the butterfly to survive.
Answer B = Scientific explanation, stuff like inertia and crap like that.
What I'm asking for is the the Anser B.
You did not answer my question, though. -_-'
How do you justify, flavor-wise (in retrospect, this is a term from MtG, so that is probably why you did not understand), BoE?
Basically, under what logic makes equipment untransferable? Not why, as in why it should be like that, but why, as in why would it work like that.
Stop reading here if you understand what I am asking.
If you still do not understand, an analogy would be something like: Why does a butterfly fly?
Answer A = What you are giving me, something like - it is easier for the butterfly to survive.
Answer B = Scientific explanation, stuff like inertia and crap like that.
What I'm asking for is the the Anser B.
Uhh....not quite sure what you're asking so could you clarify you're question by picking one of these: Are you asking how BoE works, or why it would be needed in the economy?
Uhh....not quite sure what you're asking so could you clarify you're question by picking one of these: Are you asking how BoE works, or why it would be needed in the economy?
Neither.
I'm asking why it would exist. Logically. This is a bad reason, but something on the lines of "the great auroura's curse bound equipment to the hero, forever dooming it to his possession unless that person sells it..." Basically, the scientific/logical explanation for why it is what it is. To me, neither BoE nor BoP makes sense in that manner.
Only some of the extremely high end items should be BoE/BoP, but not all of them. If they did that a little value might actually return to gold.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I have seen what the darkness hides."
"A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise; and the man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan."
- Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton (1803 - 1873)
Disclaimer : Please do not come into this thread to flame or make incessant claims that this will not be Diablo at all with these new systems. Do not claim it is a copy of World of Warcraft just because of this idea. Many games to this day borrow ideas from others. There are no "original" games anymore, only original concepts. Even Diablo 1 and 2 were worlds of difference when D2 added new things and even then, the "hardcore" fans would whine that it wasn't "Diablo."
If you really did play Diablo 2 over B.net at all then you know the economy sucked because of the myriad of uniques everyone had. Even I had four mules packed with high-end runes and gear and I had one mule carrying specifically Windforces, Eaglehorns, Stormshields, and Grandfathers.
When a game's item, like in Diablo 2, never had to be destroyed or sold because there was no reason to, then the economy will blow. If you can just keep muling or stashing or trading HIGH-END uniques over and over again, even after using them, then it becomes Diablo 2 in terms of trading / economy all over again.
Gold has no value in Diablo 2 whatsoever, only to repair your gear. When I used to frequent the trade channels and I hear, "40 SoJs for a .08 Windforce!! WHISPER ME NOW!!" it became quite clear that the economy went to crap.
Blizzard has to, and I strongly emphasize this because then it will be Diablo 2's economy again, implement some sort of way to stop the influx and retainment of high-end uniques to be able to be traded over and over again. And I believe a BoP (for certain universal items, like maybe a +20 attribute amulet ^_^) would help deter the economy from going to crap.
Now, with the Bind on Equip system, one would still be able to trade high-end uniques but once it is equipped, it becomes yours forever and cannot be traded. This will at least let a spellcaster who picks up a Mace +2 to sell to a warrior class without problems. I'm not saying that this will stop all items from becoming currency (hello, SoJs and runes) but it will at least stop the economy from going to crap.
You want a system like that? Go play WoW.
The great thing about the Diablo series is that it didn't feel like working grinding for items. It was fun and enjoyable. If you got a super duper most excellent awesome item, used it and then wanted to reroll....you didn't have to go farm for that item again or pray that a rare similar to it would drop.
The BoP and BoE system is one of things I disliked about WoW to begin with. I came from EQ where you could reuse items that YOU SPENT TIME getting.
If I put in my time to play the game and get items, I do not want to be forced into doing it again. Those items are mine and I want to be able to freely trade them between my characters and to other characters for items they might have that I want.
The good news is that Blizzard wouldn't put such a system into D3. They know the players of the Diablo series do not want a system like it. Plus, the Diablo series in no way supports such a system. It's a hack and slash and the fun about the game is to click, kill, and loot.
It's easy and though repetitive...it still retains its replay value...unlike WoW.
I'm 99% confident that we won't have to worry about Blizzard doing something so retarded...but if they did....that would be the icing on the cake. Many players can look the other way when it comes to the graphics, but when you start fucking with the game play...you're going to piss off a ton more and bullshit game mechanics like that in D3 will be a deal breaker for a good majority.
Holy shit, if they add a BoE or BoP system, or any rolling system, I will not be buying Diablo 3.
Do NOT cater this action oriented game series to WoW players because they're too slow to click on an item before someone else does.
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"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
Holy shit, if they add a BoE or BoP system, or any rolling system, I will not be buying Diablo 3.
Do NOT cater this action oriented game series to WoW players because they're too slow to click on an item before someone else does.
Oh, they've already catered to WoW players in the loot system.
Every player gets there own specific loot drops. So what you see on your screen that drops...only you can loot it. No more intense click fests for uber uniques.
Oh, they've already catered to WoW players in the loot system.
Every player gets there own specific loot drops. So what you see on your screen that drops...only you can loot it. No more intense click fests for uber uniques.
From what I understand, that's only for certain loot.
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"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
The BoP and BoE system is one of things I disliked about WoW to begin with. I came from EQ where you could reuse items that YOU SPENT TIME getting.
quick question on this small part of your post. while i am not at all in favor of there being a BoP system, im not entirely against a BoE system if done correctly as i stated much earlier in this discussion. my question is like you said you want to use items that "you spent time getting." with the way the D2 economy is set up, most people dont use anything they find (except for the early on items when your a low level), it is mostly items other people have found or duped. wouldnt you rather find that super unique item and have it actually be worth something? not have to find 40 of them for there to actually be any value to it.
i stated in an earlier post in this thread, if blizzard implemented a respec option, you wouldnt have to reroll characters, granted some people would just because... but with a respec option you can make one barb, and respec him whenever instead of having to roll 10 barbs just to get the last one right. with a BoE system, and not everything has to be BoE.. just super rare stuff, i personally think it would help the items to retain some value.
do i think blizzard would do this to diablo 3? highly doubtful, but i wouldnt be terribly upset if they did, as long as it was done correctly.
quick question on this small part of your post. while i am not at all in favor of there being a BoP system, im not entirely against a BoE system if done correctly as i stated much earlier in this discussion. my question is like you said you want to use items that "you spent time getting." with the way the D2 economy is set up, most people dont use anything they find (except for the early on items when your a low level), it is mostly items other people have found or duped. wouldnt you rather find that super unique item and have it actually be worth something? not have to find 40 of them for there to actually be any value to it.
I use a lot of rares/uniques leveling up. It's nice to then use those again if I make an alt. And also...just because I found that super unique...doesn't mean 40 other people won't have it. They'll still have it...they just wouldn't be able to trade it if there was a BoP or BoE system. And who is to say I won't want to use that same unique leveling another character? I don't want to be pigeonholed by some crap loot system like WoW in D3.
Quote from "moonshine" »
i stated in an earlier post in this thread, if blizzard implemented a respec option, you wouldnt have to reroll characters, granted some people would just because... but with a respec option you can make one barb, and respec him whenever instead of having to roll 10 barbs just to get the last one right. with a BoE system, and not everything has to be BoE.. just super rare stuff, i personally think it would help the items to retain some value.
BoE is a horrible idea. There are so many varying uniques and rares with stats that maybe one at the moment is nice, but you find something new that is better, then you're stuck with this good item that can't be traded or passed down to another char. Take rings/ammys for instance. Those can be used by any class pretty much. I have a sorce who has a real nice ring, but then I find a better one and equip it. Now I want to make a necro and I want to use the ring I no longer use on him...o...wait...I can't cuz it's BoE.
Quote from "moonshine" »
do i think blizzard would do this to diablo 3? highly doubtful, but i wouldnt be terribly upset if they did, as long as it was done correctly.
I agree that it's highly doubtful it will happen...however...i think if they did they'd lose a lot of players because that kind of system has no place in a hack and slash and fans are already pissed about the graphics...which can be somewhat looked past...but a BoE/BoP system...that's just asking for trouble.
Oh yeah, where did you hear this? Link please. Also, what certain loot?
If by "certain" loot you're talking about all uniques...then that still sucks.
No link, but I believe it pertains to class specific loot.
Again I'm not sure on this, so I too would like further details on this 'custom loot'.
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"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
If, and that's a big if, Blizz did throw in BoE's, they better be linked to an account, not a specific toon. Same with BoP's, but I hope they don't use BoP.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "I have seen what the darkness hides."
"A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise; and the man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan."
- Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton (1803 - 1873)
I don't like the idea. Again, same as the character specific items thread, it's what makes Diablo unique. Done with an item? Sweet-- pass it on.
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Long, long time Diablo fan; short, short time with DiabloFans. USEast D2 Ladder/1.13 Beta: Accnt = ChezPizmo USEast WCIII Ladder: Accnt = TeeheeSprinkles A cool, unrelated video; "Dude Bids 420 on Price is Right" ("420, Bob") "I'm nasty, I'm old and a little bit ornery; I look like Patrick Stewart and sound like Sean Connery." Patch 1.13 = (click here)
Is a BoP/BoE style economy really the wisest choice for a none-mmo rpg? Sure wow has a more robust trade economy but it has significant downsides. The problem with a gold based economy system such as WoWs is that the gold system is designed as a quick medium of exchange for a huge variety of goods, from weapons to armor, to potions, to plans, to pets, to food, to worthless doohickies. In the MMO setting it's fine, in a regular rpg, it's a hassle. Any WoW player recognizes how much of a grind getting gold can be. Quite a few high level items are completely unattainable without several days of gold grinding. Constant, repetitive daily quest in Sunwell, hours of running around fields looking for ore to sell, ect are all the driving force of the player economy. That's ok for WoW, but for a regular rpg, lots of players would likely want a focus other than gold farming.
Also WoW has implemented an efficient auction house system that allows a few hundred players to quickly exchange goods quickly and efficiently. There's no such system in Diablo II and one would likely be needed to deal with currency exchanges in III. It's so much easier to simply trade items, than to advertise/hope for a buyer of an item you have, sell it for currency, then turn around and start asking for someone to sell what you want for a price you want.
Inflation might do more harm to players than good. There will always be business moguls in any game that features any sort of economy. The cost of high quality items will be high, in all likely hood high enough that the item won't be affordable without either grinding or saving for a while. This controls the item flow somewhat, but by only limiting high priced items to people willing to put in hard grinds for the cash. But the side effect always seems to be those less devoted to financial pursuits in many mmo's find themselves more and more strapped for cash as levels progress. In alot of ways this makes many mmo task simulated work designed to simply save up enough gold to buy an item so you can have slightly more fun. Sure finally getting the item is fun, but gold grinds are just tolerable in mmo's. Requiring such a system in a game like Diablo just doesn't sound right. And honestly seeing item values deflated in a non-mmo doesn't bother me in the least bit, accessibility to a wider audience is more important.
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lol NP, bro. It's my pleasure to argue for something I truly believe in. You know what, I'm just glad to know that some of the people in this thread aren't working for Blizzard! I'm confident the Blizzard team will know how to regulate the economy.
How do you justify, flavor-wise (in retrospect, this is a term from MtG, so that is probably why you did not understand), BoE?
Basically, under what logic makes equipment untransferable? Not why, as in why it should be like that, but why, as in why would it work like that.
Stop reading here if you understand what I am asking.
If you still do not understand, an analogy would be something like: Why does a butterfly fly?
Answer A = What you are giving me, something like - it is easier for the butterfly to survive.
Answer B = Scientific explanation, stuff like inertia and crap like that.
What I'm asking for is the the Anser B.
Uhh....not quite sure what you're asking so could you clarify you're question by picking one of these: Are you asking how BoE works, or why it would be needed in the economy?
I'm asking why it would exist. Logically. This is a bad reason, but something on the lines of "the great auroura's curse bound equipment to the hero, forever dooming it to his possession unless that person sells it..." Basically, the scientific/logical explanation for why it is what it is. To me, neither BoE nor BoP makes sense in that manner.
"I have seen what the darkness hides."
"A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise; and the man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan."
- Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton (1803 - 1873)
You want a system like that? Go play WoW.
The great thing about the Diablo series is that it didn't feel like working grinding for items. It was fun and enjoyable. If you got a super duper most excellent awesome item, used it and then wanted to reroll....you didn't have to go farm for that item again or pray that a rare similar to it would drop.
The BoP and BoE system is one of things I disliked about WoW to begin with. I came from EQ where you could reuse items that YOU SPENT TIME getting.
If I put in my time to play the game and get items, I do not want to be forced into doing it again. Those items are mine and I want to be able to freely trade them between my characters and to other characters for items they might have that I want.
The good news is that Blizzard wouldn't put such a system into D3. They know the players of the Diablo series do not want a system like it. Plus, the Diablo series in no way supports such a system. It's a hack and slash and the fun about the game is to click, kill, and loot.
It's easy and though repetitive...it still retains its replay value...unlike WoW.
I'm 99% confident that we won't have to worry about Blizzard doing something so retarded...but if they did....that would be the icing on the cake. Many players can look the other way when it comes to the graphics, but when you start fucking with the game play...you're going to piss off a ton more and bullshit game mechanics like that in D3 will be a deal breaker for a good majority.
Do NOT cater this action oriented game series to WoW players because they're too slow to click on an item before someone else does.
To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells –
And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
- Excerpt from the Prophecies of the Final Day
Oh, they've already catered to WoW players in the loot system.
Every player gets there own specific loot drops. So what you see on your screen that drops...only you can loot it. No more intense click fests for uber uniques.
From what I understand, that's only for certain loot.
To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells –
And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
- Excerpt from the Prophecies of the Final Day
quick question on this small part of your post. while i am not at all in favor of there being a BoP system, im not entirely against a BoE system if done correctly as i stated much earlier in this discussion. my question is like you said you want to use items that "you spent time getting." with the way the D2 economy is set up, most people dont use anything they find (except for the early on items when your a low level), it is mostly items other people have found or duped. wouldnt you rather find that super unique item and have it actually be worth something? not have to find 40 of them for there to actually be any value to it.
i stated in an earlier post in this thread, if blizzard implemented a respec option, you wouldnt have to reroll characters, granted some people would just because... but with a respec option you can make one barb, and respec him whenever instead of having to roll 10 barbs just to get the last one right. with a BoE system, and not everything has to be BoE.. just super rare stuff, i personally think it would help the items to retain some value.
do i think blizzard would do this to diablo 3? highly doubtful, but i wouldnt be terribly upset if they did, as long as it was done correctly.
Oh yeah, where did you hear this? Link please. Also, what certain loot?
If by "certain" loot you're talking about all uniques...then that still sucks.
I use a lot of rares/uniques leveling up. It's nice to then use those again if I make an alt. And also...just because I found that super unique...doesn't mean 40 other people won't have it. They'll still have it...they just wouldn't be able to trade it if there was a BoP or BoE system. And who is to say I won't want to use that same unique leveling another character? I don't want to be pigeonholed by some crap loot system like WoW in D3.
BoE is a horrible idea. There are so many varying uniques and rares with stats that maybe one at the moment is nice, but you find something new that is better, then you're stuck with this good item that can't be traded or passed down to another char. Take rings/ammys for instance. Those can be used by any class pretty much. I have a sorce who has a real nice ring, but then I find a better one and equip it. Now I want to make a necro and I want to use the ring I no longer use on him...o...wait...I can't cuz it's BoE.
I agree that it's highly doubtful it will happen...however...i think if they did they'd lose a lot of players because that kind of system has no place in a hack and slash and fans are already pissed about the graphics...which can be somewhat looked past...but a BoE/BoP system...that's just asking for trouble.
No link, but I believe it pertains to class specific loot.
Again I'm not sure on this, so I too would like further details on this 'custom loot'.
To defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells –
And even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."
- Excerpt from the Prophecies of the Final Day
No BoE please. And no incredibly super uber unique items like in WoW where only mayb like 5 players in the top guilds out of the whole world can get.
"I have seen what the darkness hides."
"A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise; and the man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan."
- Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton (1803 - 1873)
USEast D2 Ladder/1.13 Beta: Accnt = ChezPizmo
USEast WCIII Ladder: Accnt = TeeheeSprinkles
A cool, unrelated video; "Dude Bids 420 on Price is Right" ("420, Bob")
"I'm nasty, I'm old and a little bit ornery; I look like Patrick Stewart and sound like Sean Connery."
Patch 1.13 = (click here)
Also WoW has implemented an efficient auction house system that allows a few hundred players to quickly exchange goods quickly and efficiently. There's no such system in Diablo II and one would likely be needed to deal with currency exchanges in III. It's so much easier to simply trade items, than to advertise/hope for a buyer of an item you have, sell it for currency, then turn around and start asking for someone to sell what you want for a price you want.
Inflation might do more harm to players than good. There will always be business moguls in any game that features any sort of economy. The cost of high quality items will be high, in all likely hood high enough that the item won't be affordable without either grinding or saving for a while. This controls the item flow somewhat, but by only limiting high priced items to people willing to put in hard grinds for the cash. But the side effect always seems to be those less devoted to financial pursuits in many mmo's find themselves more and more strapped for cash as levels progress. In alot of ways this makes many mmo task simulated work designed to simply save up enough gold to buy an item so you can have slightly more fun. Sure finally getting the item is fun, but gold grinds are just tolerable in mmo's. Requiring such a system in a game like Diablo just doesn't sound right. And honestly seeing item values deflated in a non-mmo doesn't bother me in the least bit, accessibility to a wider audience is more important.