crimson plague of toads is going to be my favorite spell on release when i hit lvl 14.
169% exploding frogs for less mana than poison dart, lawl.
Wouldn't RoT still be more efficient?
RoT isnt available until level 51..... so ill be using exploding frogs until then lol.. and it also depends on the radius of it and the radius of how big the toads explode. they most likely will just kill everything directly around each toad. but idk how big RoT will be. hope they come out with a demo video for it. also the build i plan to use for leveling is a close combat thorny build so crimson frogs will be better for my build anyways
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Ya see...this is the main reason why I (and probably many others) dislike the new rune system.
I won't be able to use the skill I want until I basically reach Hell mode.
Ya see...this is the main reason why I (and probably many others) dislike the new rune system.
I won't be able to use the skill I want until I basically reach Hell mode.
exactly! no one should have to wait 51 or 60 levels just to test out one skill they want. its a lot more fun using it while leveling up anyways. one skill that may be fun while leveling up may be useless for farming so u wont ever bother using it at all once your max. with all the rage on the main forums about this i think within 2-3 weeks we will see another patch changing it. (hopefully)
the runes are in random order. its not like all skill runes go from alabster to obsidian like on the calculator. 4 spells of the WD has the crimson as the first rune and one had alabaster and one had obsidian. its very random
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Imagine 4 WDs in a group at level, say, 20 before the patch.
They would be breezing through everything. Even one WD in a group would be noticeable for all the damage.
The WD would then experience hedgehogs dilemma, & mf alone.
NOT BLIZZARD's VISION. They want you to come together & fight minions together (not kidding).
WD arguably has great cc &.lots of survivability. A lot of people will group together to mf & such..
WD are meant to be a supportive class.
The WD feeling like the highest-dps class as well, simply could not happen.
This slows down the WD killing speed a bit, but they're still amazing.
The WD has pets & survivability to play alone, & the tools to make them wonderful in a group.
In the long run, this was needed.. Perhaps, inevitable.
Hopefully haunt looks better down the line for solo play, though.
Ya see...this is the main reason why I (and probably many others) dislike the new rune system.
I won't be able to use the skill I want until I basically reach Hell mode.
exactly! no one should have to wait 51 or 60 levels just to test out one skill they want. its a lot more fun using it while leveling up anyways. one skill that may be fun while leveling up may be useless for farming so u wont ever bother using it at all once your max. with all the rage on the main forums about this i think within 2-3 weeks we will see another patch changing it. (hopefully)
the runes are in random order. its not like all skill runes go from alabster to obsidian like on the calculator. 4 spells of the WD has the crimson as the first rune and one had alabaster and one had obsidian. its very random
...and it's not even like the skills you unlock are going to be all that "amazing".
Remember in D2 when you reached level 30 and unlocked that 'signature/OP' skill? (Frozen Orb, Poison Nova, WW, etc)
Ya see...this is the main reason why I (and probably many others) dislike the new rune system.
I won't be able to use the skill I want until I basically reach Hell mode.
exactly! no one should have to wait 51 or 60 levels just to test out one skill they want. its a lot more fun using it while leveling up anyways. one skill that may be fun while leveling up may be useless for farming so u wont ever bother using it at all once your max. with all the rage on the main forums about this i think within 2-3 weeks we will see another patch changing it. (hopefully)
the runes are in random order. its not like all skill runes go from alabster to obsidian like on the calculator. 4 spells of the WD has the crimson as the first rune and one had alabaster and one had obsidian. its very random
...and it's not even like the skills you unlock are going to be all that "amazing".
Remember in D2 when you reached level 30 and unlocked that 'signature/OP' skill? (Frozen Orb, Poison Nova, WW, etc)
ya exactly... the skill u unlock at lvl 51 isnt any better then the one you unlock at lvl 14. so the fact that you have to unlock them in a certain order is absurd. obviously the runes shouldnt increase in power because then everyone would only use the end runes. but making them pickable would solve all the QQ/rage about the new system and make mostly everyone happy. i REALLY hope they implement this and soon. if they say 'we did what we did because bla bla were not changing it' its going to suck...
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
I hoping for an iteration where you simply level and select the skill and then the rune you'd like to unlock for that skill, so those who are diving into the game knowing the build they want to run don't need to wait to 60 to use it.
That said, Blizzard is getting very close to crunch time and final polish I doubt they'll revisit the rune system until after the game goes gold, unfortunately.
Zombie Charger does less, Haunt does 350% now and its a supportive dps ability not a spam ability, under those circumstances many DoT abilities outdamage Splinter Darts, as they should.
Hungry Bats + Passive can counter Splinter Darts, but so could Splinter Darts + Passive put it back on top, so only Hungry Bats + Pierce + Vermin can actually full outdamage Splinter and you're giving up 2 passives to pull it off, nevermind the fact we don't know how it actually functions unfortunately.
I'm not sure why you're so adamant about Splinter Darts being bad, especially when you're using out-dated information in your arguements.
You are the one who wanted to talk about PURE single target dps...So what if you have to use 1 extra passive, for PURE single target dps hungry bats are better.
You looked at un-runed zombie charger.....with any rune it should outdmg poison dart. And even if it doesnt, who cares? Its still WAY WAY better in most situations...who cares if it does 5% less dmg?
Poison dart is king of jack and shit, and jack left to hang out with the Firebats.
You might have more updated information, but they don't make you take an IQ test to get into beta.
I think its kind of funny the loopholes you will jump through to try to not seem dumb. I called you out on bad information, and you bring up some BS argument about pure dps. I even prove that wrong, and now all thats left is ad hominem.
Sad, truly sad.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Uhh w/o comparing skills, how do you choose which to pick? Flip coins? Sry, but the people who care about making good builds have to compare skills to theorycraft properly.
Right, so tell me how comparing skills outside of a build is properly theorycrafting?
I wrote: "a little comparing may be worth doing but let's not stretch it too far, they are very different skills, each useful in different situations and, most important, each suits a different gamestyle."
I just wanted to point out that comparing single skills is useful to evaluate their efficiency but to understand how useful a skill will be in a build you have to do a more complete evaluation.
Sorry if my previous post was not clear, hope my position is more comprehensible now.
@Ellixmaji
Agree on what people is trying to figure, I just wanted to point out that there is not a "best solution" without a context nor a solution that suits each different gamestyle. Hope this time I expressed myself better
Yes there are some synergies between skills, but not a ton. Most skills stand on their own merit.
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One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
You looked at un-runed zombie charger.....with any rune it should outdmg poison dart. And even if it doesnt, who cares? Its still WAY WAY better in most situations...who cares if it does 5% less dmg?
Poison dart is king of jack and shit, and jack left to hang out with the Firebats.
Zombie Charger doesn't have range, though. I don't think it can target enemies farther than 20 yards. Imho they are two different kind of abilities.
zombie charger can hit more then 1 target at close range for 205% each. and runed i can do a lot more but its slow. psn dart is more of a long ranged dps but goes a lot faster
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
zombie charger can hit more then 1 target at close range for 205% each. and runed i can do a lot more but its slow. psn dart is more of a long ranged dps but goes a lot faster
I think i'm just going to stick to Firebats, but i'll have to recalculate DPS and damage per mana. We'll see when the game comes out. The fact that Firebats is a frontal cone is really a big plus factor, especially since you won't have time to perfectly aim the zombie, which seems to have a pretty small hitbox (but i'll have to take a look again to it).
I have an old love for the big frog, but at the moment, i don't see me taking it.
ya firebats is one of my fav spells too for the great dmg and low mana cost of the runed versions. i may use it for my close combat thorny pet build. but the exploding bullfrogs seem pretty tempting and you get them early. the frogs are cheap enough to be infinite but firebats is only like 6 more mana.
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Thank you OP for your detailed update. Not in beta, just trying to follow all these "adjustments" to the class I chose as my main.
Looking at Haunt (Consuming Spirit) is that 2 health return or 2%? It doesn't seem like 2 health would be that great (unless these abilities scale with level), considering the classes should have a large HP pool at higher levels. Even an ability like Leeching Beasts takes a severe hit in it's healing ability due to the lowered pet output. I just hope these abilities are tested and adjusted to scale and balance with the higher health levels.
I have read from some testers that the WD is still very strong in beta, however I think that largely has to do with the runes (3 shot dart and jumping spiders). I am more concerned with higher levels and how these changes will scale and or be effective. There are some drastic changes, which leads me to believe that maybe equipment later on might bring some of the abilities back up to prenerf levels.
Again, all this is speculation from a non tester and again thanks for the post.
Thank you OP for your detailed update. Not in beta, just trying to follow all these "adjustments" to the class I chose as my main.
Looking at Haunt (Consuming Spirit) is that 2 health return or 2%? It doesn't seem like 2 health would be that great (unless these abilities scale with level), considering the classes should have a large HP pool at higher levels. Even an ability like Leeching Beasts takes a severe hit in it's healing ability due to the lowered pet output. I just hope these abilities are tested and adjusted to scale and balance with the higher health levels.
I have read from some testers that the WD is still very strong in beta, however I think that largely has to do with the runes (3 shot dart and jumping spiders). I am more concerned with higher levels and how these changes will scale and or be effective. There are some drastic changes, which leads me to believe that maybe equipment later on might bring some of the abilities back up to prenerf levels.
Again, all this is speculation from a non tester and again thanks for the post.
Runes that provide healing scale as you level fortunately. I've yet to determine if they're also based on max health as well, as without that being the case the more tanky builds wouldn't see much use out of them.
Zombie Charger does less, Haunt does 350% now and its a supportive dps ability not a spam ability, under those circumstances many DoT abilities outdamage Splinter Darts, as they should.
Hungry Bats + Passive can counter Splinter Darts, but so could Splinter Darts + Passive put it back on top, so only Hungry Bats + Pierce + Vermin can actually full outdamage Splinter and you're giving up 2 passives to pull it off, nevermind the fact we don't know how it actually functions unfortunately.
I'm not sure why you're so adamant about Splinter Darts being bad, especially when you're using out-dated information in your arguements.
You are the one who wanted to talk about PURE single target dps...So what if you have to use 1 extra passive, for PURE single target dps hungry bats are better.
You looked at un-runed zombie charger.....with any rune it should outdmg poison dart. And even if it doesnt, who cares? Its still WAY WAY better in most situations...who cares if it does 5% less dmg?
Poison dart is king of jack and shit, and jack left to hang out with the Firebats.
You might have more updated information, but they don't make you take an IQ test to get into beta.
I think its kind of funny the loopholes you will jump through to try to not seem dumb. I called you out on bad information, and you bring up some BS argument about pure dps. I even prove that wrong, and now all thats left is ad hominem.
Sad, truly sad.
Zombie Charger has one rune that increases its damage, by ~4%. You may not know this but Zombie Charger has an extremely small hit box, is the slowest projectile in the game, and might also be the shortest ranged one on top of that. Not to mention it's an ability that can't be spammed due to its mana cost. It's a great skill for a very specific type of build.
We don't know how Hungry Bats fuctions. We don't know the quantity of bats per 1 second window, whether they home *on target* or seek the closest target, which could make it unwieldy. We also don't know if the channel will be modified by attack speed, which Splinter Darts are. Many variations could see the use of Hungry Bats change its functionality, let along that outside of Crimson, Firebats has a reletively short range. Which could be quite dangerous on the upper difficulties. As I recall you infered that Poison Dart would be not of much use in higher difficulties, but then go on to say that giving up 2 passives to make a skill able to out damage it proves your point? In Inferno Jungle Fortitude and Bad Medicine will almost assuredly be in most builds, and keeping as much distance between you and your target will likely be a very good idea to prolong your life.
Of course channeled spells are influenced with increased atk speed....otherwise they would all be crap at high gear levels.
You are really grasping at straws ya know. If you like the poison dart thats fine, they did buff it up and make it viable now...but dont go off and say its the king and the best, cuz its not true.
PS: Zombie dogs are not bad either...idk wtf you are smoking, but people will read that crap and prob believe it. They are meatshields, they always were...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Of course channeled spells are influenced with increased atk speed....otherwise they would all be crap at high gear levels.
You are really grasping at straws ya know. If you like the poison dart thats fine, they did buff it up and make it viable now...but dont go off and say its the king and the best, cuz its not true.
PS: Zombie dogs are not bad either...idk wtf you are smoking, but people will read that crap and prob believe it. They are meatshields, they always were...
Their runing options are all now very bad, were as before they had some really interesting and powerful choices. Hell, every build I made used to take Zombie Dogs just for Soul Link. Zombie Handler took a big time nerf, they're much worse off now than they were, we can atleast say that. Whether they will be good in Inferno I think we all kind of assume they will be relatively mandatory, but who knows. I think Blizzard went off the deep end with them.
Edit: As far as channeled speeds and attack speed, I think they are affected but I haven't been able to prove it yet. The only thing that can survive a spurt of Firebats from my WD is the Skeleton King and there isn't a frenzy shrine there to help me out.
In addition there could be some uses to channeled spells being locked in at 1 second, either for balancing reasons (Because honestly I'll use Crimson Firebats over practically every skill) or to help out big slow 2 handers that you might happen across / craft (Obviously the preferred set up is the Knife/Wanga Doll for the inborn mana regen they usually sport in addition to the bonus damage on the Wangas. But you can't control if you find a two-hander with great stats and dps over your current set up.
Another problem could be that most attacks have an in-born max attack speed because I don't believe I've seen an instance of animation clipping. So with channels not having an animation timer they could become massively imbalanced at high attack speeds.
Of course they did because the WD is meant to summon creatures as defense. Even blizz said the petless WD is a gimmick build, in which you are intentionally nerfing yourself.
The heal rune still seems like a nice choice to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Of course they did because the WD is meant to summon creatures as defense. Even blizz said the petless WD is a gimmick build, in which you are intentionally nerfing yourself.
The heal rune still seems like a nice choice to me.
9%WD -> 4.5% healing for the pet -> 2.25% Weapon Damage healing to you? I'd still take Indigo over that.
Of course they did because the WD is meant to summon creatures as defense. Even blizz said the petless WD is a gimmick build, in which you are intentionally nerfing yourself.
The heal rune still seems like a nice choice to me.
9%WD -> 4.5% healing for the pet -> 2.25% Weapon Damage healing to you? I'd still take Indigo over that.
unless you have good damage. 2.25% x 3 or x4 with the zombie handler passive. so 9% of your weapon dmg constantly healing you as they attack? ya thats awesome. people are really underestimating that rune. before when the indigo rune was 40% sure it was way better, now that its gimped to a mere 10% id much rather have the healing rune. also its healing them for double that so its keeping you both alive. VS just transfering 10% of your dmg to them and not healing either of you. and since the zombie handler passive got a 40% life nerf your probably going to need more healing for your dogs
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"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
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Wouldn't RoT still be more efficient?
RoT isnt available until level 51..... so ill be using exploding frogs until then lol.. and it also depends on the radius of it and the radius of how big the toads explode. they most likely will just kill everything directly around each toad. but idk how big RoT will be. hope they come out with a demo video for it. also the build i plan to use for leveling is a close combat thorny build so crimson frogs will be better for my build anyways
Ya see...this is the main reason why I (and probably many others) dislike the new rune system.
I won't be able to use the skill I want until I basically reach Hell mode.
exactly! no one should have to wait 51 or 60 levels just to test out one skill they want. its a lot more fun using it while leveling up anyways. one skill that may be fun while leveling up may be useless for farming so u wont ever bother using it at all once your max. with all the rage on the main forums about this i think within 2-3 weeks we will see another patch changing it. (hopefully)
the runes are in random order. its not like all skill runes go from alabster to obsidian like on the calculator. 4 spells of the WD has the crimson as the first rune and one had alabaster and one had obsidian. its very random
They would be breezing through everything. Even one WD in a group would be noticeable for all the damage.
The WD would then experience hedgehogs dilemma, & mf alone.
NOT BLIZZARD's VISION. They want you to come together & fight minions together (not kidding).
WD arguably has great cc &.lots of survivability. A lot of people will group together to mf & such..
WD are meant to be a supportive class.
The WD feeling like the highest-dps class as well, simply could not happen.
This slows down the WD killing speed a bit, but they're still amazing.
The WD has pets & survivability to play alone, & the tools to make them wonderful in a group.
In the long run, this was needed.. Perhaps, inevitable.
Hopefully haunt looks better down the line for solo play, though.
Yeah, & you're really bright.
...and it's not even like the skills you unlock are going to be all that "amazing".
Remember in D2 when you reached level 30 and unlocked that 'signature/OP' skill? (Frozen Orb, Poison Nova, WW, etc)
ya exactly... the skill u unlock at lvl 51 isnt any better then the one you unlock at lvl 14. so the fact that you have to unlock them in a certain order is absurd. obviously the runes shouldnt increase in power because then everyone would only use the end runes. but making them pickable would solve all the QQ/rage about the new system and make mostly everyone happy. i REALLY hope they implement this and soon. if they say 'we did what we did because bla bla were not changing it' its going to suck...
That said, Blizzard is getting very close to crunch time and final polish I doubt they'll revisit the rune system until after the game goes gold, unfortunately.
You are the one who wanted to talk about PURE single target dps...So what if you have to use 1 extra passive, for PURE single target dps hungry bats are better.
You looked at un-runed zombie charger.....with any rune it should outdmg poison dart. And even if it doesnt, who cares? Its still WAY WAY better in most situations...who cares if it does 5% less dmg?
Poison dart is king of jack and shit, and jack left to hang out with the Firebats.
You might have more updated information, but they don't make you take an IQ test to get into beta.
I think its kind of funny the loopholes you will jump through to try to not seem dumb. I called you out on bad information, and you bring up some BS argument about pure dps. I even prove that wrong, and now all thats left is ad hominem.
Sad, truly sad.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Yes there are some synergies between skills, but not a ton. Most skills stand on their own merit.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
zombie charger can hit more then 1 target at close range for 205% each. and runed i can do a lot more but its slow. psn dart is more of a long ranged dps but goes a lot faster
ya firebats is one of my fav spells too for the great dmg and low mana cost of the runed versions. i may use it for my close combat thorny pet build. but the exploding bullfrogs seem pretty tempting and you get them early. the frogs are cheap enough to be infinite but firebats is only like 6 more mana.
Looking at Haunt (Consuming Spirit) is that 2 health return or 2%? It doesn't seem like 2 health would be that great (unless these abilities scale with level), considering the classes should have a large HP pool at higher levels. Even an ability like Leeching Beasts takes a severe hit in it's healing ability due to the lowered pet output. I just hope these abilities are tested and adjusted to scale and balance with the higher health levels.
I have read from some testers that the WD is still very strong in beta, however I think that largely has to do with the runes (3 shot dart and jumping spiders). I am more concerned with higher levels and how these changes will scale and or be effective. There are some drastic changes, which leads me to believe that maybe equipment later on might bring some of the abilities back up to prenerf levels.
Again, all this is speculation from a non tester and again thanks for the post.
Runes that provide healing scale as you level fortunately. I've yet to determine if they're also based on max health as well, as without that being the case the more tanky builds wouldn't see much use out of them.
Zombie Charger has one rune that increases its damage, by ~4%. You may not know this but Zombie Charger has an extremely small hit box, is the slowest projectile in the game, and might also be the shortest ranged one on top of that. Not to mention it's an ability that can't be spammed due to its mana cost. It's a great skill for a very specific type of build.
We don't know how Hungry Bats fuctions. We don't know the quantity of bats per 1 second window, whether they home *on target* or seek the closest target, which could make it unwieldy. We also don't know if the channel will be modified by attack speed, which Splinter Darts are. Many variations could see the use of Hungry Bats change its functionality, let along that outside of Crimson, Firebats has a reletively short range. Which could be quite dangerous on the upper difficulties. As I recall you infered that Poison Dart would be not of much use in higher difficulties, but then go on to say that giving up 2 passives to make a skill able to out damage it proves your point? In Inferno Jungle Fortitude and Bad Medicine will almost assuredly be in most builds, and keeping as much distance between you and your target will likely be a very good idea to prolong your life.
You are really grasping at straws ya know. If you like the poison dart thats fine, they did buff it up and make it viable now...but dont go off and say its the king and the best, cuz its not true.
PS: Zombie dogs are not bad either...idk wtf you are smoking, but people will read that crap and prob believe it. They are meatshields, they always were...
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Their runing options are all now very bad, were as before they had some really interesting and powerful choices. Hell, every build I made used to take Zombie Dogs just for Soul Link. Zombie Handler took a big time nerf, they're much worse off now than they were, we can atleast say that. Whether they will be good in Inferno I think we all kind of assume they will be relatively mandatory, but who knows. I think Blizzard went off the deep end with them.
Edit: As far as channeled speeds and attack speed, I think they are affected but I haven't been able to prove it yet. The only thing that can survive a spurt of Firebats from my WD is the Skeleton King and there isn't a frenzy shrine there to help me out.
In addition there could be some uses to channeled spells being locked in at 1 second, either for balancing reasons (Because honestly I'll use Crimson Firebats over practically every skill) or to help out big slow 2 handers that you might happen across / craft (Obviously the preferred set up is the Knife/Wanga Doll for the inborn mana regen they usually sport in addition to the bonus damage on the Wangas. But you can't control if you find a two-hander with great stats and dps over your current set up.
Another problem could be that most attacks have an in-born max attack speed because I don't believe I've seen an instance of animation clipping. So with channels not having an animation timer they could become massively imbalanced at high attack speeds.
The heal rune still seems like a nice choice to me.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
9%WD -> 4.5% healing for the pet -> 2.25% Weapon Damage healing to you? I'd still take Indigo over that.
unless you have good damage. 2.25% x 3 or x4 with the zombie handler passive. so 9% of your weapon dmg constantly healing you as they attack? ya thats awesome. people are really underestimating that rune. before when the indigo rune was 40% sure it was way better, now that its gimped to a mere 10% id much rather have the healing rune. also its healing them for double that so its keeping you both alive. VS just transfering 10% of your dmg to them and not healing either of you. and since the zombie handler passive got a 40% life nerf your probably going to need more healing for your dogs