beLIEve - I tried to say that in such a way as it wasn't accusatory. I'm not claiming that moderators are the bad guy, "The Man" or anything like that. It's just that a forum moderator's job is to maintain a reasonably peaceable forum, that's simply how it is and in doing their job they will necessarily have to side with the majority.
I was only pointing out that it's one more reason why it's so difficult for someone whose opinion isn't that of the majority to be heard. It's all too easy to take the route which is thousands of years old - label and thus dehumanize those who disagree with the majority (in this case, by calling us "trolls") so that it's easier to take the next step and tell us that we're worthless and that our opinions shouldn't even be heard. Hence my above reference to censorship in countries like DPRK.
My username is actually Daemaro (found on the red bar) beLIEve is my title, anyways~
Right. I agree. But right now the clear majority isn't "we don't want any negative threads" it's more of "we don't want extremist threads" and also people not wanting posts that derail a discussion to one side or the other.
I was only pointing out that it's one more reason why it's so difficult for someone whose opinion isn't that of the majority to be heard.
Absolutely not true in the least. The only way one's voice here is silenced is to have their post deleted. In all the myriad threads where opinions were on display about blizzard, the game, and the problems therein, I can't recall a single post being removed that wasn't an obligatory ad-hominem attack against another poster, completely devoid of other content.
It's all too easy to take the route which is thousands of years old - label and thus dehumanize those who disagree with the majority (in this case, by calling us "trolls") so that it's easier to take the next step and tell us that we're worthless and that our opinions shouldn't even be heard. Hence my above reference to censorship in countries like DPRK.
Trying to walk the fine line between civil discussion and inflammatory word-battles is anything but easy. What is easy; however, is to over-generalize and derail an otherwise fruitful discussion.
Its amazing how the QQ about the QQ'ers, is more rude and stupid than the actual QQ about the game.
Are you talking about this thread, and in particular the original poster? Are you saying that the posts by the OP in this thread are "rude and stupid"?
If that is not what you are talking about, then I have to suggest that your comments are not applicable to this thread.
I do think that this thread is rude, basically trying to shut people up. The game has many problems including alot of missing content, no end game, broken leveling/skill system resulting in no character pernamence or uniqueness, and broken item game which forces people to use auction house. These are just the problems with game mechanics, many people think the story is awful and hate the art design but these things are more subjective. Fixing these system would require several major overhauls like patch 1.04 Its not just a couple of trolls trolling, it is a popular opinion if not an outright consensus. Many "famous" players commented on this inluding Kripperian, the Force Strategy guys, and the guy who designed the original Diablo (see latest diablo inc news).
I understand that threads discussing all this are frustrating to some, and some of the threads are less than constructive. The way to make them go away is to fix Diablo 3. Item game will hopefully be fixed 1.04, after this they can patch PvP and hopefully more missing content, after they can create a viable endgame, and lastly overhaul character creation to allow for character pernamence and uniqueness. When all this is finished we will have the game that should have been 1.00 and will be ready for an expansion pack. Until all this is done, the threads will not go away.
But right now the clear majority isn't "we don't want any negative threads" it's more of "we don't want extremist threads" and also people not wanting posts that derail a discussion to one side or the other.
It's actually more the case of "we don't want mile-long walls of text that we are expected to read just to find out that you're upset". Present your opinions short and simple. If you can't, people are just going to ignore them. Or worse, they're going to troll you without even reading beyond the first few sentences. That's the way the Internet works. Don't give us trollbait.
What is easy; however, is to over-generalize and derail an otherwise fruitful discussion.
You seem to be the expert. After all, without your acidic and unnecessary replies my post would have probably gone unnoticed. So thanks for helping me to highlight the issues with this game and with the marginalization of those not on the Blizzard Bandwagon. It's the first nice thing you've done for me, and I appreciate it
I understand that threads discussing all this are frustrating to some, and some of the threads are less than constructive. The way to make them go away is to fix Diablo 3. Item game will hopefully be fixed 1.04, after this they can patch PvP and hopefully more missing content, after they can create a viable endgame, and lastly overhaul character creation to allow for character pernamence and uniqueness. When all this is finished we will have the game that should have been 1.00 and will be ready for an expansion pack. Until all this is done, the threads will not go away.
We're not talking about constructive threads though, or talking about "shutting people up". A thread can shed negative light on a game mechanic and still be constructive. This is more about the posts and threads that are just negative to be negative and offer no solution to the issues.
We can't "fix" the game. The best the people who have complaints can hope for is to construct a civil thread with a lot of good alternative ideas to the problem you see. The nonconstructive negative posts also hinder your efforts at legitimately getting something changed for what you feel is the better. Right now some of the negative threads are just absurd and offer no way to change the game. Things like "Blizzard made D3 to promote WoW". That's fine if it's your opinion, but it goes against the core userbase of the forum who care about the game in one way or another and are either happy with the game or actually want to seriously discuss things that can be changed for the betterment of the game.
This isn't targeted at constructive posts at all, more just the baseless accusation posts or the posts that are simply statements and offer no discussion.
Just trying to get a feel for what most of the more active users(readers, and posters) want to see.
You seem to be the expert. After all, without your acidic and unnecessary replies my post would have probably gone unnoticed. So thanks for helping me to highlight the issues with this game and with the marginalization of those not on the Blizzard Bandwagon. It's the first nice thing you've done for me, and I appreciate it
You made a comparison to third world countries, of course my response was going to be sarcastic. In what way were you using that to highlight issues with the game? Marginalizing is not the point of this thread, but your replies have done a lot to illustrate my point, so I must say: the pleasure has been all mine.
Right now some of the negative threads are just absurd and offer no way to change the game. Things like "Blizzard made D3 to promote WoW". That's fine if it's your opinion, but it goes against the core userbase of the forum who care about the game in one way or another and are either happy with the game or actually want to seriously discuss things that can be changed for the betterment of the game.
Well said, indeed.
There needs to be some sense of "this can be fixed" or "perhaps this is a way this can be fixed" because this IS a fansite and we SHOULD be interested in the success of the game. People who are interested in the success of the game aren't ones who are routinely spreading such ill will.
You can see it even in this thread. One person with absolutely ridiculous comparisons to North Korea (even after previous posts with the same comparisons have been deleted in the past) is still repeatedly going off-topic to bash Blizzard, bash D3, etc. in a thread that's not even about D3, but about these forums.
That's exactly what people are sick of. Why does everything have to be derailed by accusations of people apologizing for Blizzard? This thread isn't about Blizzard. Fuck, this thread isn't about D3. It's about Diablofans.com. Yet, ever since a certain somebody posted we have barely been talking about that. We keep having to pull the discussion back on-topic. We have to keep dealing with people not reading the thread and saying that it's just about Blizzard fanboys wanting to censor people.
Just look at how many times Daemaro has had to ask us to remain on topic in the past two pages.
Just look at how many times Proleteria and Daemaro have attempted to remind people that this is not about removing criticisms from the board or even squelching negative opinions.
This is a microcosm of the forums. The *communication* is at a low because people are not reading and comprehending, they are just posting. If everyone were comprehending the contents of this thread there wouldn't be repeated attempts to keep things on-topic and there wouldn't be so many attempts to continue to clarify the nature of the discussion.
This is EXACTLY one of the things that people are complaining about. Purposefully derailing threads after it's been warned not to is ignorant, especially in a thread like this where we, as members of this community, are given the opportunity to actually help shape the framework in which we operate. Instead of taking that opportunity for what it is (which is much more than most online communities get) we're busy pedantically arguing the meaning of the word "is" instead of taking the opportunity to shape our future.
If we can't all have meaningful discussion in THIS thread then where is the hope to have it in other threads?
As a privately-run forum aimed at fans of Diablo3, I think there's an obligation on the part of participants to respect the fact that (most) people are here precisely because we like the game, and want to talk about it, and the mods have a legitimate mandate to facilitate that end.
There's a certain entertainment value to be had from attempting to disabuse people of certain unfacts (D3 took 11 years to make, Jay Wilson was solely responsible for all bad decisions, etc) or from attempting to dismantle conspiratorial narratives (all Blizzard cares about is the RMAH, D3 is the worst game ever)... but honestly, it's like eating a whole bucket of KFC. It might feel good while you're doing it, but you feel horrible afterwards and vow never to do it again (until mmmmmm... dat smell).
In the end, though, this isn't some general-purpose internet arena that is obliged to welcome all comers, and which exists for the primary purpose of enabling trolls and intransigent scrappers. When someone starts a "What was Blizzard thinking..." thread and they're looking for possible insights into game design, or a good-natured bitchfest about some stupid aspect in an otherwise pretty good game (Arcane Descrator Frozen FireChains Burning Constructs dafuq??) that's fine. Exchange will ensue, and it'll probably be good. But when it's a purely rhetorical question from someone just looking for a fight and/or affirmation, I just don't see the point in letting it live. It'll turn into a toxic puddle of ad-homs and nit-picking over semantics before you can say "Let us cleanse it from this land", and the whole thread will proceed with a tedious inevitability.
As for spurious railing against censorship... I don't want to see goatse, Kirk/Mudd slashfic or long rambling discussions about whether or not Tom Bombadil is a metaphor for a possible JRRT mushroom habit. Feel free to censor those, and nuke the occasional blatant troll thread along with it. Long live the moderators.
True freedom can only be achieved when we have rules. Absolute freedom (and that includes freedom of speech) is anarchy. Trust me, you wouldn't wanna see anarchy in an internet forum (or anywhere), that's why there are moderators and "rules" to be enforced. That's one thing that people who even consider what we're talking about as being censorship don't seem to understand.
Every now and then, you see the obvious troll, poking others with statements on issues that have been discussed to death (and on topics which the troll himself participated before) and usually trying to bait everyone into flaming him. These are the types of guys who we're talking about here, and locking/deleting those threads won't really harm anyone.
The problem with allowing these kinds of users run rampant on the forums is how much they overshadow good topics. We've had great topics after launch, some funny, some with nice ideas (like that one about positive affixes, or the one about heroes and flags) fall behind in pages because in some weekends we had 8-10 whining threads in a row, all discussing the same thing.
The problem with allowing these kinds of users run rampant on the forums is how much they overshadow good topics. We've had great topics after launch, some funny, some with nice ideas (like that one about positive affixes, or the one about heroes and flags) fall behind in pages because in some weekends we had 8-10 whining threads in a row, all discussing the same thing.
Title insulting/inflammatory: check
Rehashing old gripes without adding anything new: check
Griping about things that are actually going to be fixed either tomorrow or next week: check
Non-constructive: check
Just another example of the swill that buries decent discussion. And a good job to Zero & Nuvian for stepping in and handling it quickly.
What is easy; however, is to over-generalize and derail an otherwise fruitful discussion.
You seem to be the expert. After all, without your acidic and unnecessary replies my post would have probably gone unnoticed. So thanks for helping me to highlight the issues with this game and with the marginalization of those not on the Blizzard Bandwagon. It's the first nice thing you've done for me, and I appreciate it
Look another snarky post to derail this thread. But look, nothing is done about it. No infraction, no ban, no deletion, nothing. Yet my post got deleted for pointing this out once already.
Because the thread is being derailed by someone pointing out his derailing. His post wasn't simply derailing, it was abrasive yes but there is a more important topic underneathe and when I go through sweeping up all the posts it would be removing a lot of him and proletaria talking and I don't like leaving gaps in threads like that or removing the last several posts letting a important thread sink to the bottom.
The arguing also ended there on its own, sometimes that's best as long as it isn't being perpetuated by outside comments or it goes too far as to be personal.
Don't derail by pointing out someone else is derailing.
So I don't know if anyone noticed or not but I wrote up a new section in the rules that should hopefully help in normal discussion (this whole Jay Wilson thing though is explosive and there's no real putting it out at the moment.)
This has actually been in place for a month or so now, just making it a little more transparent:
Warnings and Infractions
In general most offenses will either issue a one point infraction, though not limited to, or a warning which doesn't add to your infraction bar, it merely serves as a notification to you that it's not okay to continue the action and it is kept logged for staff to view when dealing with you in the future.
Automatic actions will be taken at certain amounts of infraction points:
Four points is a three day suspension.
Six points is a week suspension.
Eight points is a two week suspension.
Ten points is a permanent ban.
And this is more specific to what we've discussed in this thread.
Off-topic/Derailing/Hijacking
Sometimes discussion steers threads into a different direction than the original post. That is fine. What is not fine is purposely entering a thread and steering it in a different direction to derail it. If you enter a thread about how great kittens are and start telling everyone kittens are terrible and puppies are better, that is derailing. On the same line of thinking though, if you enter a thread about how bad a puppy is and you wish it would stop making messes in the floor and someone comes in and says puppies are fine you're a moron, that's also not okay.
Remember to not take part and report it instead, it will keep you out of trouble.
Because the thread is being derailed by someone pointing out his derailing. His post wasn't simply derailing, it was abrasive yes but there is a more important topic underneathe and when I go through sweeping up all the posts it would be removing a lot of him and proletaria talking and I don't like leaving gaps in threads like that or removing the last several posts letting a important thread sink to the bottom.
The arguing also ended there on its own, sometimes that's best as long as it isn't being perpetuated by outside comments or it goes too far as to be personal.
Don't derail by pointing out someone else is derailing.
So I don't know if anyone noticed or not but I wrote up a new section in the rules that should hopefully help in normal discussion (this whole Jay Wilson thing though is explosive and there's no real putting it out at the moment.)
This has actually been in place for a month or so now, just making it a little more transparent:
Warnings and Infractions
In general most offenses will either issue a one point infraction, though not limited to, or a warning which doesn't add to your infraction bar, it merely serves as a notification to you that it's not okay to continue the action and it is kept logged for staff to view when dealing with you in the future.
Automatic actions will be taken at certain amounts of infraction points:
Four points is a three day suspension.
Six points is a week suspension.
Eight points is a two week suspension.
Ten points is a permanent ban.
And this is more specific to what we've discussed in this thread.
Off-topic/Derailing/Hijacking
Sometimes discussion steers threads into a different direction than the original post. That is fine. What is not fine is purposely entering a thread and steering it in a different direction to derail it. If you enter a thread about how great kittens are and start telling everyone kittens are terrible and puppies are better, that is derailing. On the same line of thinking though, if you enter a thread about how bad a puppy is and you wish it would stop making messes in the floor and someone comes in and says puppies are fine you're a moron, that's also not okay.
Remember to not take part and report it instead, it will keep you out of trouble.
So you admit he is derailing then accusing me of derailing while taking no action against him for derailing while you delete my post. GG.
This is what the entire thread is about. You guys don't DO anything about this stuff. Why send in a report ticket when it never goes anywhere? In this case I would rather point it out since I see you posting here a lot. That way other people get to see you not take action. Bilge has been posting his hatred for D3 on these forums since I started posting here yet I haven't seen you do much of anything about it, and he isn't the only one.
Why abide by the rules, why be civil, why care about hurting others feelings, why worry about posting constructively when there are no repercussions? By Bilge's post he obviously doesn't care. Every reply from him has been a derail and abusiveness, yet nothing is done about it and you tell me I am derailing by pointing it out. I am not at all derailing, I am pointing out that while we are talking about ways to make this forum better you have people derailing it and being abusive while you are talking about being more severe against people derailing and being abusive. If you think I am really derailing this thread I welcome you to permanently ban me. Honestly, if you think I am derailing then I don't want to be a part of this community and would welcome the ban because that would mean you really have no clue how to moderate a forum.
Because the thread is being derailed by someone pointing out his derailing. His post wasn't simply derailing, it was abrasive yes but there is a more important topic underneathe and when I go through sweeping up all the posts it would be removing a lot of him and proletaria talking and I don't like leaving gaps in threads like that or removing the last several posts letting a important thread sink to the bottom.
The arguing also ended there on its own, sometimes that's best as long as it isn't being perpetuated by outside comments or it goes too far as to be personal.
Don't derail by pointing out someone else is derailing.
So you admit he is derailing then accusing me of derailing while taking no action against him for derailing while you delete my post. GG.
This is what the entire thread is about. You guys don't DO anything about this stuff. Why send in a report ticket when it never goes anywhere? In this case I would rather point it out since I see you posting here a lot. That way other people get to see you not take action. Bilge has been posting his hatred for D3 on these forums since I started posting here yet I haven't seen you do much of anything about it, and he isn't the only one.
Why abide by the rules, why be civil, why care about hurting others feelings, why worry about posting constructively when there are no repercussions? By Bilge's post he obviously doesn't care. Every reply from him has been a derail and abusiveness, yet nothing is done about it and you tell me I am derailing by pointing it out. I am not at all derailing, I am pointing out that while we are talking about ways to make this forum better you have people derailing it and being abusive while you are talking about being more severe against people derailing and being abusive. If you think I am really derailing this thread I welcome you to permanently ban me. Honestly, if you think I am derailing then I don't want to be a part of this community and would welcome the ban because that would mean you really have no clue how to moderate a forum.
Did you even read what Daemaro posted? Do you understand what was said? I've highlighted the important parts that you seem to have not understood properly. The answer to your question is in his post there.
When 2 people are discussing a certain subject, and they eventually go slightly off topic or get a little abrasive, we don't just automatically delete all their posts in the thread (and sometimes by the time we see the off-topic posts, the conversation has already dies out, or both parties have reached an agreement), so there's no point in coming in and deleting 15 posts, specially when these contain things that actually matter to the discussion. Sometimes it's better to clarify the issue to the person than simply censoring him by deleting posts and leaving him in the dark (which is what happened here).
Now when a single third party, who's not involved in the discussion of those 2 in the first place, comes forward SOLELY to point out that an already dead argument is off-topic, with a single post that is abrasive in itself and serves absolutely no point in the discussion other then to point fingers, then we remove it. It's easy to decide to remove posts like yours, but removing whole conversations/discussions for the sake of enforcing a rule which has the purpose of trying to encourage discussions is not how forums work.
And just because someone is posting against D3 (as you said about Bilge's tendencies) that doesn't mean they will get their posts deleted all the time, as long as they're not attacking anyone personally (which happens a lot), derailing a thread about MF by talking that the elite affixes suck, or generally just obviously baiting others into flaming (trolling 101), their posts are legit and we won't censor that.
For the record, we receive lots of reports from you guys, and we look at all of them as impartially as possible. Sometimes what some of you consider to be obvious trolling is judged as just a slightly off-topic post or very slight flaming/sarcasm Just because everything you reported wasn't solved the way you wanted it doesn't mean we're not doing anything about these posts. Ask Proletaria (or anyone here) if all the reports he made became deleted posts.
There are also times where we leave a report open and wait for input from the rest of the staff, if the solution isn't clear cut for the moderator who sees it first. Sometimes we also don't agree on what's obvious trolling the community or just dumb posting from a new member. You have to take all that into account.
IIRC all the moderators are humans, and we are all different. What one will judge as abrasive flaming the other can judge as harmless emotional finger pointing. The rules are general guidelines, and they serve a purpose, do encourage discussion. When enforcing the rules actually hinders discussions, that's when we take a step back and tread more carefully.
Get real, folks, the diablo you all knew is dead, a few years ago i said right here in this forum that D3 had a pretty good chance of being blizzard first bust (i was flamed to death ofc), and what you know, its not even beta and its already looking that way.
Fact is deleting posts in threads is stupid. It serves little to no purpose except to hide things that don't deserve to be hidden. Infractions are there for a reason. When someone decides to be abusive, derails a topic intentionally, and just all out disrupts a thread or conversation you should be infracting them; not deleting posts unless there is a seriously valid reason to do so.
Once you infract someone for a certain post you should then be editing the post to add that the person was infracted and why so people know that this is a no no. Deleting the post instead does nothing to educate the other posters here. That's one of the biggest issues with the moderation here, you don't educate the posters and you expect them all to read your rules and guidelines (as if anyone ever does). Anyone who has served as a forum moderator should know this. It is moderation 101.
As to you saying "Just because someone posted against D3". Do I expect moderation on all anti-D3 posts? Of course not. But do I expect moderation on the anti-D3 posts that are nothing but inflammatory bullshit? Yes. Lets take Bilge for example. Go into his past posts and read some of his conspiracy theory crap from several weeks ago. I am pretty sure you as a moderators can go back farther than I can. That is the kind of garbage that needs infractions galore. Uneducated drivel by people who lack the intelligence to understand how and why companies make certain business decisions serves no purpose other than to incite other people who do not understand. All that does is make other people think "OMG EVIL EMPIRE OMG OMG" and you get multiple people spreading that garbage like the plague.
And OMG, multiple threads galore on these forums. Seriously. How many topics about MF does one forum need? Reply to them, state they are repeat topics, link to the original topic, lock. GG.
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I was only pointing out that it's one more reason why it's so difficult for someone whose opinion isn't that of the majority to be heard. It's all too easy to take the route which is thousands of years old - label and thus dehumanize those who disagree with the majority (in this case, by calling us "trolls") so that it's easier to take the next step and tell us that we're worthless and that our opinions shouldn't even be heard. Hence my above reference to censorship in countries like DPRK.
Right. I agree. But right now the clear majority isn't "we don't want any negative threads" it's more of "we don't want extremist threads" and also people not wanting posts that derail a discussion to one side or the other.
Absolutely not true in the least. The only way one's voice here is silenced is to have their post deleted. In all the myriad threads where opinions were on display about blizzard, the game, and the problems therein, I can't recall a single post being removed that wasn't an obligatory ad-hominem attack against another poster, completely devoid of other content.
Trying to walk the fine line between civil discussion and inflammatory word-battles is anything but easy. What is easy; however, is to over-generalize and derail an otherwise fruitful discussion.
I do think that this thread is rude, basically trying to shut people up. The game has many problems including alot of missing content, no end game, broken leveling/skill system resulting in no character pernamence or uniqueness, and broken item game which forces people to use auction house. These are just the problems with game mechanics, many people think the story is awful and hate the art design but these things are more subjective. Fixing these system would require several major overhauls like patch 1.04 Its not just a couple of trolls trolling, it is a popular opinion if not an outright consensus. Many "famous" players commented on this inluding Kripperian, the Force Strategy guys, and the guy who designed the original Diablo (see latest diablo inc news).
I understand that threads discussing all this are frustrating to some, and some of the threads are less than constructive. The way to make them go away is to fix Diablo 3. Item game will hopefully be fixed 1.04, after this they can patch PvP and hopefully more missing content, after they can create a viable endgame, and lastly overhaul character creation to allow for character pernamence and uniqueness. When all this is finished we will have the game that should have been 1.00 and will be ready for an expansion pack. Until all this is done, the threads will not go away.
We're not talking about constructive threads though, or talking about "shutting people up". A thread can shed negative light on a game mechanic and still be constructive. This is more about the posts and threads that are just negative to be negative and offer no solution to the issues.
We can't "fix" the game. The best the people who have complaints can hope for is to construct a civil thread with a lot of good alternative ideas to the problem you see. The nonconstructive negative posts also hinder your efforts at legitimately getting something changed for what you feel is the better. Right now some of the negative threads are just absurd and offer no way to change the game. Things like "Blizzard made D3 to promote WoW". That's fine if it's your opinion, but it goes against the core userbase of the forum who care about the game in one way or another and are either happy with the game or actually want to seriously discuss things that can be changed for the betterment of the game.
This isn't targeted at constructive posts at all, more just the baseless accusation posts or the posts that are simply statements and offer no discussion.
Just trying to get a feel for what most of the more active users(readers, and posters) want to see.
Then you should re-read the OP and my follow-ups on the first and second page. I went out of my way to explain that this is not the case.
You made a comparison to third world countries, of course my response was going to be sarcastic. In what way were you using that to highlight issues with the game? Marginalizing is not the point of this thread, but your replies have done a lot to illustrate my point, so I must say: the pleasure has been all mine.
Well said, indeed.
There needs to be some sense of "this can be fixed" or "perhaps this is a way this can be fixed" because this IS a fansite and we SHOULD be interested in the success of the game. People who are interested in the success of the game aren't ones who are routinely spreading such ill will.
You can see it even in this thread. One person with absolutely ridiculous comparisons to North Korea (even after previous posts with the same comparisons have been deleted in the past) is still repeatedly going off-topic to bash Blizzard, bash D3, etc. in a thread that's not even about D3, but about these forums.
That's exactly what people are sick of. Why does everything have to be derailed by accusations of people apologizing for Blizzard? This thread isn't about Blizzard. Fuck, this thread isn't about D3. It's about Diablofans.com. Yet, ever since a certain somebody posted we have barely been talking about that. We keep having to pull the discussion back on-topic. We have to keep dealing with people not reading the thread and saying that it's just about Blizzard fanboys wanting to censor people.
Just look at how many times Daemaro has had to ask us to remain on topic in the past two pages.
Just look at how many times Proleteria and Daemaro have attempted to remind people that this is not about removing criticisms from the board or even squelching negative opinions.
This is a microcosm of the forums. The *communication* is at a low because people are not reading and comprehending, they are just posting. If everyone were comprehending the contents of this thread there wouldn't be repeated attempts to keep things on-topic and there wouldn't be so many attempts to continue to clarify the nature of the discussion.
This is EXACTLY one of the things that people are complaining about. Purposefully derailing threads after it's been warned not to is ignorant, especially in a thread like this where we, as members of this community, are given the opportunity to actually help shape the framework in which we operate. Instead of taking that opportunity for what it is (which is much more than most online communities get) we're busy pedantically arguing the meaning of the word "is" instead of taking the opportunity to shape our future.
If we can't all have meaningful discussion in THIS thread then where is the hope to have it in other threads?
There's a certain entertainment value to be had from attempting to disabuse people of certain unfacts (D3 took 11 years to make, Jay Wilson was solely responsible for all bad decisions, etc) or from attempting to dismantle conspiratorial narratives (all Blizzard cares about is the RMAH, D3 is the worst game ever)... but honestly, it's like eating a whole bucket of KFC. It might feel good while you're doing it, but you feel horrible afterwards and vow never to do it again (until mmmmmm... dat smell).
In the end, though, this isn't some general-purpose internet arena that is obliged to welcome all comers, and which exists for the primary purpose of enabling trolls and intransigent scrappers. When someone starts a "What was Blizzard thinking..." thread and they're looking for possible insights into game design, or a good-natured bitchfest about some stupid aspect in an otherwise pretty good game (Arcane Descrator Frozen FireChains Burning Constructs dafuq??) that's fine. Exchange will ensue, and it'll probably be good. But when it's a purely rhetorical question from someone just looking for a fight and/or affirmation, I just don't see the point in letting it live. It'll turn into a toxic puddle of ad-homs and nit-picking over semantics before you can say "Let us cleanse it from this land", and the whole thread will proceed with a tedious inevitability.
As for spurious railing against censorship... I don't want to see goatse, Kirk/Mudd slashfic or long rambling discussions about whether or not Tom Bombadil is a metaphor for a possible JRRT mushroom habit. Feel free to censor those, and nuke the occasional blatant troll thread along with it. Long live the moderators.
Every now and then, you see the obvious troll, poking others with statements on issues that have been discussed to death (and on topics which the troll himself participated before) and usually trying to bait everyone into flaming him. These are the types of guys who we're talking about here, and locking/deleting those threads won't really harm anyone.
The problem with allowing these kinds of users run rampant on the forums is how much they overshadow good topics. We've had great topics after launch, some funny, some with nice ideas (like that one about positive affixes, or the one about heroes and flags) fall behind in pages because in some weekends we had 8-10 whining threads in a row, all discussing the same thing.
Title insulting/inflammatory: check
Rehashing old gripes without adding anything new: check
Griping about things that are actually going to be fixed either tomorrow or next week: check
Non-constructive: check
Just another example of the swill that buries decent discussion. And a good job to Zero & Nuvian for stepping in and handling it quickly.
Look another snarky post to derail this thread. But look, nothing is done about it. No infraction, no ban, no deletion, nothing. Yet my post got deleted for pointing this out once already.
The arguing also ended there on its own, sometimes that's best as long as it isn't being perpetuated by outside comments or it goes too far as to be personal.
Don't derail by pointing out someone else is derailing.
So I don't know if anyone noticed or not but I wrote up a new section in the rules that should hopefully help in normal discussion (this whole Jay Wilson thing though is explosive and there's no real putting it out at the moment.)
This has actually been in place for a month or so now, just making it a little more transparent:
And this is more specific to what we've discussed in this thread.
So you admit he is derailing then accusing me of derailing while taking no action against him for derailing while you delete my post. GG.
This is what the entire thread is about. You guys don't DO anything about this stuff. Why send in a report ticket when it never goes anywhere? In this case I would rather point it out since I see you posting here a lot. That way other people get to see you not take action. Bilge has been posting his hatred for D3 on these forums since I started posting here yet I haven't seen you do much of anything about it, and he isn't the only one.
Why abide by the rules, why be civil, why care about hurting others feelings, why worry about posting constructively when there are no repercussions? By Bilge's post he obviously doesn't care. Every reply from him has been a derail and abusiveness, yet nothing is done about it and you tell me I am derailing by pointing it out. I am not at all derailing, I am pointing out that while we are talking about ways to make this forum better you have people derailing it and being abusive while you are talking about being more severe against people derailing and being abusive. If you think I am really derailing this thread I welcome you to permanently ban me. Honestly, if you think I am derailing then I don't want to be a part of this community and would welcome the ban because that would mean you really have no clue how to moderate a forum.
When 2 people are discussing a certain subject, and they eventually go slightly off topic or get a little abrasive, we don't just automatically delete all their posts in the thread (and sometimes by the time we see the off-topic posts, the conversation has already dies out, or both parties have reached an agreement), so there's no point in coming in and deleting 15 posts, specially when these contain things that actually matter to the discussion. Sometimes it's better to clarify the issue to the person than simply censoring him by deleting posts and leaving him in the dark (which is what happened here).
Now when a single third party, who's not involved in the discussion of those 2 in the first place, comes forward SOLELY to point out that an already dead argument is off-topic, with a single post that is abrasive in itself and serves absolutely no point in the discussion other then to point fingers, then we remove it. It's easy to decide to remove posts like yours, but removing whole conversations/discussions for the sake of enforcing a rule which has the purpose of trying to encourage discussions is not how forums work.
And just because someone is posting against D3 (as you said about Bilge's tendencies) that doesn't mean they will get their posts deleted all the time, as long as they're not attacking anyone personally (which happens a lot), derailing a thread about MF by talking that the elite affixes suck, or generally just obviously baiting others into flaming (trolling 101), their posts are legit and we won't censor that.
For the record, we receive lots of reports from you guys, and we look at all of them as impartially as possible. Sometimes what some of you consider to be obvious trolling is judged as just a slightly off-topic post or very slight flaming/sarcasm Just because everything you reported wasn't solved the way you wanted it doesn't mean we're not doing anything about these posts. Ask Proletaria (or anyone here) if all the reports he made became deleted posts.
There are also times where we leave a report open and wait for input from the rest of the staff, if the solution isn't clear cut for the moderator who sees it first. Sometimes we also don't agree on what's obvious trolling the community or just dumb posting from a new member. You have to take all that into account.
IIRC all the moderators are humans, and we are all different. What one will judge as abrasive flaming the other can judge as harmless emotional finger pointing. The rules are general guidelines, and they serve a purpose, do encourage discussion. When enforcing the rules actually hinders discussions, that's when we take a step back and tread more carefully.
On the official forums, that's a whole different story, non-constructive hardcore trashing is what made Blizzard know they had a big problem.
Once you infract someone for a certain post you should then be editing the post to add that the person was infracted and why so people know that this is a no no. Deleting the post instead does nothing to educate the other posters here. That's one of the biggest issues with the moderation here, you don't educate the posters and you expect them all to read your rules and guidelines (as if anyone ever does). Anyone who has served as a forum moderator should know this. It is moderation 101.
As to you saying "Just because someone posted against D3". Do I expect moderation on all anti-D3 posts? Of course not. But do I expect moderation on the anti-D3 posts that are nothing but inflammatory bullshit? Yes. Lets take Bilge for example. Go into his past posts and read some of his conspiracy theory crap from several weeks ago. I am pretty sure you as a moderators can go back farther than I can. That is the kind of garbage that needs infractions galore. Uneducated drivel by people who lack the intelligence to understand how and why companies make certain business decisions serves no purpose other than to incite other people who do not understand. All that does is make other people think "OMG EVIL EMPIRE OMG OMG" and you get multiple people spreading that garbage like the plague.
And OMG, multiple threads galore on these forums. Seriously. How many topics about MF does one forum need? Reply to them, state they are repeat topics, link to the original topic, lock. GG.