After reading the topic in the Wizard sub-forum about the Familiar spell, I began to ponder.
Will the pets scale properly? The Familiar, Ancients, Mongrels AND the Gargantuan?
I really haven't seen or heard any word on this. I think the primary reason they haven't touched it is due to them not having primarily tested Nightmare/Hell yet.
Clearly they will want this feature in, but how well it will be done is...well....necessary to know.
Any chance Sixen will be askin' them buggers about this?
There's some discussion on this in the Witch Doctor forum ( http://www.diablofans.com/topic/25447-summon-scaling/ ). I'm hoping yes, because there seem to be traits (at least for the Witch Doctor) that affect summon health/damage in addition to pets scaling with skill points and runes. Also, if you check out some of the Witch Doctor fire zombie dogs in one of the PvP videos, you'll notice that they all have 299 HP, while actual class characters have 800-1000 HP, suggesting that they do scale effectively.
There's some discussion on this in the Witch Doctor forum ( http://www.diablofans.com/topic/25447-summon-scaling/ ). I'm hoping yes, because there seem to be traits (at least for the Witch Doctor) that affect summon health/damage in addition to pets scaling with skill points and runes. Also, if you check out some of the Witch Doctor fire zombie dogs in one of the PvP videos, you'll notice that they all have 299 HP, while actual class characters have 800-1000 HP, suggesting that they do scale effectively.
I suppose that's true. It's just that they would need to be slightly more beefy and deal slightly more damage in order to be effective at all in Hell.
I mean, I can understand scaling with PvP. Those being a separate set of skills and all. I was more worried about how they'd hold up against monsters. I wouldn't mind knowing about the gargantuan. Haven't heard anything abou him, and he's meant to be tanky.
...scaling with PvP. Those being a separate set of skills and all.
...?
I was under the impression that skills are not being tailored to balance PvP, and I don't know what you mean by a separate set of skills for PvP mode. Perhaps I'm just out of the loop or misread your post.
Common sense tells me they will scale properly based on PVE. I also believe that runes will change the summoning game a bit too (mana effiency, changing damage types, maybe adding stats like health and armor to pets...) but i guess we'll just have to wait and see.
...scaling with PvP. Those being a separate set of skills and all.
...?
I was under the impression that skills are not being tailored to balance PvP, and I don't know what you mean by a separate set of skills for PvP mode. Perhaps I'm just out of the loop or misread your post.
They've said many many times that there will be two sets of skills. A PvE set and a PvP set. That way they can balance both sets for their respective uses.
...scaling with PvP. Those being a separate set of skills and all.
...?
I was under the impression that skills are not being tailored to balance PvP, and I don't know what you mean by a separate set of skills for PvP mode. Perhaps I'm just out of the loop or misread your post.
They've said many many times that there will be two sets of skills. A PvE set and a PvP set. That way they can balance both sets for their respective uses.
I believe its more like, same set of skills but they will have different properties in the arena than the normal game. So when you go into arena the tooltip will read respectively to that. Such as taking less/more resources, less/more dmg, longer/shorter cooldown etc etc
Seems like a semantic issue. Most people would not call firebomb scaled for damage in PvP a different skill than firebomb in PvE - it's just firebomb scaled for PvP. However you think about it, my guess is that with Blizzard trying to make all the skills viable and with all of the traits that enhance summons, they will be viable throughout the game (in PvE).
Seems like a semantic issue. Most people would not call firebomb scaled for damage in PvP a different skill than firebomb in PvE - it's just firebomb scaled for PvP. However you think about it, my guess is that with Blizzard trying to make all the skills viable and with all of the traits that enhance summons, they will be viable throughout the game (in PvE).
Normally I would agree with you, but I'm relatively sure during one of the Q&A's or interviews Mr. Wilson had stated two separate skills.
The reason I personally say it's two separate skills, is that it would be 500% easier in the coding.
To just simply scale the abilities to work differently in the arena, it would require quite a bit of code for each individual skill.
If they just used two skill-sets, they could have each individual skillset operate off the same parameters they would have been using for each individual skill.
From a design stand-point, it makes much more sense to use sets. ^.^ Hope that clears it up.
We're literally talking about a difference between...a thousand lines of coding versus fifty.
Edit: I'll look for a source now. I'm pretty sure I heard once in one of the interviews that they would use separate sets. It only makes sense from a coding standpoint. If they don't do it that way they're....inefficient..
Ah I see what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking about it from the player's standpoint - to me, what you're describing would look like the same skills I have in PvE, just scaled for PvP. So for the firebomb example from a player's standpoint: visually it would look the same as it did in PvE and it would have the same effect, but maybe it would do less damage. In terms of the code though, this would be treated as a different skill, yeah?
Ah I see what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking about it from the player's standpoint - to me, what you're describing would look like the same skills I have in PvE, just scaled for PvP. So for the firebomb example from a player's standpoint: visually it would look the same as it did in PvE and it would have the same effect, but maybe it would do less damage. In terms of the code though, this would be treated as a different skill, yeah?
It would be the same skill (description and all) but it would be a separate version. So yes ^.^. It would be a different skill, yet the same skill and it would still show up to the player as the regular skill. In fact the player would have no way to tell!
Ah I see what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking about it from the player's standpoint - to me, what you're describing would look like the same skills I have in PvE, just scaled for PvP. So for the firebomb example from a player's standpoint: visually it would look the same as it did in PvE and it would have the same effect, but maybe it would do less damage. In terms of the code though, this would be treated as a different skill, yeah?
It would be the same skill (description and all) but it would be a separate version. So yes ^.^. It would be a different skill, yet the same skill and it would still show up to the player as the regular skill. In fact the player would have no way to tell!
I agree. For all intents and purposes, they'd be two entirely different skills, likely with different effects and cooldowns. It could be a bit confusing for players, though. How would we know how skills behave in PvP? How would we get through PvM if good PvP skills' counterparts are useless in PvM?
Rushing, of course, but that probably isn't what the developers are designing the game for. This line of thinking is primarily why I questioned what you're stating as fact that I've yet to see a source for. I know I've seen a few threads with posters suggesting this as a solution to PvP balancing, but I can't recall ever reading a Blizzard statement saying it's actually true.
I'm not saying this because I want to be an asshole and refute your argument for nothing but being wrong. I just want to ensure that I have my facts straight, since it would be very unfortunate if I was misinformed writing an article on this in the future. I'm wrong about a lot of things and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
Sure is a lot of mice in here
We should start a club We used to have user-made club groups in vBulletin, but then we switched to IPBoard and that functionality is now gone
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Ah I see what you're saying. I guess I'm thinking about it from the player's standpoint - to me, what you're describing would look like the same skills I have in PvE, just scaled for PvP. So for the firebomb example from a player's standpoint: visually it would look the same as it did in PvE and it would have the same effect, but maybe it would do less damage. In terms of the code though, this would be treated as a different skill, yeah?
It would be the same skill (description and all) but it would be a separate version. So yes ^.^. It would be a different skill, yet the same skill and it would still show up to the player as the regular skill. In fact the player would have no way to tell!
I agree. For all intents and purposes, they'd be two entirely different skills, likely with different effects and cooldowns. It could be a bit confusing for players, though. How would we know how skills behave in PvP? How would we get through PvM if good PvP skills' counterparts are useless in PvM?
Rushing, of course, but that probably isn't what the developers are designing the game for. This line of thinking is primarily why I questioned what you're stating as fact that I've yet to see a source for. I know I've seen a few threads with posters suggesting this as a solution to PvP balancing, but I can't recall ever reading a Blizzard statement saying it's actually true.
I'm not saying this because I want to be an asshole and refute your argument for nothing but being wrong. I just want to ensure that I have my facts straight, since it would be very unfortunate if I was misinformed writing an article on this in the future. I'm wrong about a lot of things and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
Sure is a lot of mice in here
We should start a club We used to have user-made club groups in vBulletin, but then we switched to IPBoard and that functionality is now gone
I completely understand that, considering your position within the community.
I am still looking for the videos that I thought I heard them say these things in.
I'm in school for programming, and from what I know so far, it would be inefficient like I said.
If they didn't handle it with entirely different skill sets, they'd have to handle each skill individually. This would take much much longer, and with them being Blizzard, I don't think they want that kind of slop if it can be done in a much cleaner fashion.
My example will not be done in coding, but just a rough outline to show you what I mean.
Mongrel Skill
A: PvE Skill
I:Trigger PvE Skill in PvE Game
II: Effects
III: Description
B: PvP Skill
I: Trigger PvP Skill in PvP game
II: Effects
II: Description
Whereas they could module it in this fashion:
Witch Doctor PvE
*Trigger PvE skill for PvE game
A) Mongrel
I: Effect
II: Description
Firebats
I: Effect
II: Description
Witch Doctor PvP
A) Mongrel
I: Effect
II: Description
When you look at this you might not see much difference. Remember that each skill would double in content. This would make scrolling through the list and finding bugs much more difficult. The reason for this is the amount of coding needed to trigger which skillset is active. If they do it individually for each skill, there will be a trigger for each skill. The difference is basically 5 lines of coding versus....125 respectively. That's just to TRIGGER the skills on the PvE or PvP side. With 5 lines of coding, it's a lot harder to mess up. You can read through it a lot easier.
With the PvE/PvP modules as I was stating...it'd be a lot easier to find the bugs. If you had a PvE set and a PvP set, assuming the PvP set was one big module (for the sake of quarantining bugs to a specific section of the game), you would know where to look. Even for a sake of balancing you could just go straight to the PvP or PvE set.
So with just triggers, they've cut down on 120 lines of coding. That's...not too much, but it is a fair bit. With the skills placed in their respective fields - PvE or PvP - they can be balanced and looked at separately. The thing you guys don't understand is how much of a pain in the ass it is to fix bugs in coding. For one spell, they have to have the code to use the sound file, the animation file, models, etc., not to mention the effects, the rune effects, the title, the description, etc. It's a crap ton of coding, and where they can make their life easier they will.
That was added for clarification as to why they would go about doing it in a manner such as that.
I will look for the video at this point though.
Edit: I completely respect your position and I do not want conjectures to be taken as factual. If anything I would encourage you to make a news article just covering the pros and cons of both sides. Basically just ensuring others that PvP will NOT be affecting PvE, if anything.
They've said many many times that there will be two sets of skills. A PvE set and a PvP set. That way they can balance both sets for their respective uses.
They've said many many times that there will be two sets of skills. A PvE set and a PvP set. That way they can balance both sets for their respective uses.
Best news ever.
I'd look at them as versions.
I think it may have actually been a rather old interview where he stated that....Anybody have any ideas?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Will the pets scale properly? The Familiar, Ancients, Mongrels AND the Gargantuan?
I really haven't seen or heard any word on this. I think the primary reason they haven't touched it is due to them not having primarily tested Nightmare/Hell yet.
Clearly they will want this feature in, but how well it will be done is...well....necessary to know.
Any chance Sixen will be askin' them buggers about this?
I suppose that's true. It's just that they would need to be slightly more beefy and deal slightly more damage in order to be effective at all in Hell.
I mean, I can understand scaling with PvP. Those being a separate set of skills and all. I was more worried about how they'd hold up against monsters. I wouldn't mind knowing about the gargantuan. Haven't heard anything abou him, and he's meant to be tanky.
If they didn't scale, WDs wouldn't be able to reach hell mode.
...?
I was under the impression that skills are not being tailored to balance PvP, and I don't know what you mean by a separate set of skills for PvP mode. Perhaps I'm just out of the loop or misread your post.
They've said many many times that there will be two sets of skills. A PvE set and a PvP set. That way they can balance both sets for their respective uses.
You sure? It'd technically be two sets of skills then if I'm not mistaken.
Normally I would agree with you, but I'm relatively sure during one of the Q&A's or interviews Mr. Wilson had stated two separate skills.
The reason I personally say it's two separate skills, is that it would be 500% easier in the coding.
To just simply scale the abilities to work differently in the arena, it would require quite a bit of code for each individual skill.
If they just used two skill-sets, they could have each individual skillset operate off the same parameters they would have been using for each individual skill.
From a design stand-point, it makes much more sense to use sets. ^.^ Hope that clears it up.
We're literally talking about a difference between...a thousand lines of coding versus fifty.
Edit: I'll look for a source now. I'm pretty sure I heard once in one of the interviews that they would use separate sets. It only makes sense from a coding standpoint. If they don't do it that way they're....inefficient..
It would be the same skill (description and all) but it would be a separate version. So yes ^.^. It would be a different skill, yet the same skill and it would still show up to the player as the regular skill. In fact the player would have no way to tell!
I agree. For all intents and purposes, they'd be two entirely different skills, likely with different effects and cooldowns. It could be a bit confusing for players, though. How would we know how skills behave in PvP? How would we get through PvM if good PvP skills' counterparts are useless in PvM?
Rushing, of course, but that probably isn't what the developers are designing the game for. This line of thinking is primarily why I questioned what you're stating as fact that I've yet to see a source for. I know I've seen a few threads with posters suggesting this as a solution to PvP balancing, but I can't recall ever reading a Blizzard statement saying it's actually true.
I'm not saying this because I want to be an asshole and refute your argument for nothing but being wrong. I just want to ensure that I have my facts straight, since it would be very unfortunate if I was misinformed writing an article on this in the future. I'm wrong about a lot of things and I'm not ashamed to admit that.
We should start a club We used to have user-made club groups in vBulletin, but then we switched to IPBoard and that functionality is now gone
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I completely understand that, considering your position within the community.
I am still looking for the videos that I thought I heard them say these things in.
I'm in school for programming, and from what I know so far, it would be inefficient like I said.
If they didn't handle it with entirely different skill sets, they'd have to handle each skill individually. This would take much much longer, and with them being Blizzard, I don't think they want that kind of slop if it can be done in a much cleaner fashion.
My example will not be done in coding, but just a rough outline to show you what I mean.
Mongrel Skill
A: PvE Skill
I:Trigger PvE Skill in PvE Game
II: Effects
III: Description
B: PvP Skill
I: Trigger PvP Skill in PvP game
II: Effects
II: Description
Whereas they could module it in this fashion:
Witch Doctor PvE
*Trigger PvE skill for PvE game
A) Mongrel
I: Effect
II: Description
Firebats
I: Effect
II: Description
Witch Doctor PvP
A) Mongrel
I: Effect
II: Description
When you look at this you might not see much difference. Remember that each skill would double in content. This would make scrolling through the list and finding bugs much more difficult. The reason for this is the amount of coding needed to trigger which skillset is active. If they do it individually for each skill, there will be a trigger for each skill. The difference is basically 5 lines of coding versus....125 respectively. That's just to TRIGGER the skills on the PvE or PvP side. With 5 lines of coding, it's a lot harder to mess up. You can read through it a lot easier.
With the PvE/PvP modules as I was stating...it'd be a lot easier to find the bugs. If you had a PvE set and a PvP set, assuming the PvP set was one big module (for the sake of quarantining bugs to a specific section of the game), you would know where to look. Even for a sake of balancing you could just go straight to the PvP or PvE set.
So with just triggers, they've cut down on 120 lines of coding. That's...not too much, but it is a fair bit. With the skills placed in their respective fields - PvE or PvP - they can be balanced and looked at separately. The thing you guys don't understand is how much of a pain in the ass it is to fix bugs in coding. For one spell, they have to have the code to use the sound file, the animation file, models, etc., not to mention the effects, the rune effects, the title, the description, etc. It's a crap ton of coding, and where they can make their life easier they will.
That was added for clarification as to why they would go about doing it in a manner such as that.
I will look for the video at this point though.
Edit: I completely respect your position and I do not want conjectures to be taken as factual. If anything I would encourage you to make a news article just covering the pros and cons of both sides. Basically just ensuring others that PvP will NOT be affecting PvE, if anything.
I'd look at them as versions.
I think it may have actually been a rather old interview where he stated that....Anybody have any ideas?