So, I've been playing a lot of Diablo 2 in the last week or so and I could not help but ponder on some of the monsters that I encountered. Then suddenly, when viciously ravaging a tidy and almost peaceful encampent of terrified Fallen, I realised that there is perhaps an inconsistency in their backstory. Yeah, that's me all over, while beating the crap out of demons I meditate upon their history. Anyway, let's take a look at what D3 page says about fallen.
They served as Azmodan's hands, performing acts that he would not, could not involve himself in. They were the instrument of Azmodan's first failed attempt to usurp power from Diablo and his brothers, and after that failure, the fallen were subjected to the full wrath of Diablo. They were twisted into small, ridiculous imps, in contrast to their previously powerful forms. Moreover, if they expected Azmodan to reverse their condition, they were sadly mistaken. The infuriated Azmodan held them responsible for the Prime Evils' continued reign, and so he left the fallen in their new bodies, where their degradation would serve to amuse him for all eternity. Their failure provided him with the information he required to succeed in dethroning Diablo and his brothers - the event now known as the "Dark Exile" - but that fact did nothing to soften his heart toward the fallen.
As we learn from Izual in D2, the Prime Evils have in fact masterminded their own exile into Sanctuary. The whole Dark Exile was a ruse. The Prime Evils and angels have IIRC sworn that they will not directly battle over Sanctuary and thus Prime Evils played themselves as being unwillingly banished there (therefore not breaking their oath). I cannot remember where I read that last part though so I might be wrong. Anyway, if the Dark Exile was a trick as we know it was, and Belial and Azmodan therefore didn't really battle with the Prime Evils (as true bloody battles over Hell would only tip the balance of power in Heaven's favour), the Lesser Evils merely acted everything out. Why then would Diablo then punish the Fallen for doing their part when they were following his orders or simply fitting his plans? If he did it merely to complete the illusion, why then would he or Azmodan not transform them back into their true forms once the Dark Exile was underway and nothing could stop it? The Prime Evils were risking everything, even themselves during the Exile. Why would they risk the success of their plan by weakening their own armies in this way. It would have been much easier to take over Sanctuary when you have zounds of massive demons watching your back. Imagine what a swarm of Pit Lords would be able to do to Sanctuary, compared to a swarm of Fallen.
The Dark Exile itself is a bit confusing as one doesn't know how much of it holds true and what is just lies and tricks of the demons. What is your take on this?
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A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head!
There are ways a loremaster could rationalize this contradiction. It can be something like Azmodan planning to actually take over hell, while pretending to take over hell in the absence of the three. I mean, I'm guessing he saw their powers severely weakened once they entered Sanc, and maybe it takes time for them to recover once they re-enter Hell.. Azmodan and his crew could try to usurp and defeat the three. Either while they are weakened in Sanctuary, or just as they re-enter, still weakened and in need of recovery.
Something like that.
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"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
The Dark Exile itself is a bit confusing as one doesn't know how much of it holds true and what is just lies and tricks of the demons. What is your take on this?
I really wouldn't sweat it - it is obviously just half-digested Tolkien made after the game.
Anyway, if the Dark Exile was a trick as we know it was, and Belial and Azmodan therefore didn't really battle with the Prime Evils (as true bloody battles over Hell would only tip the balance of power in Heaven's favour), the Lesser Evils merely acted everything out.
This is where you went wrong. The Dark Exile was not a massive secret plan that everyone in Hell knew about. Only the Three knew about it; according to Azmodan and everyone else, they really were fighting an honest war and they really were winning it.
This is where you went wrong. The Dark Exile was not a massive secret plan that everyone in Hell knew about. Only the Three knew about it; according to Azmodan and everyone else, they really were fighting an honest war and they really were winning it.
Therefore there is no contradiction.
Oh, I see. But Hell must be nuts then. I mean the Great Conflict, the ultimate battle of survival between Heaven and Hell has always been balanced and nobody seemed to be able to hold domination for long. And then Prime Evils simply decide to get all Hell's inhabitants to fight one another and suffer countless losses...and after reclaiming Hell for themselves, they twist Azmodan's elite guard, a bunch of powerful demons, into those tiny little pests. That's what I call risky :biggrin: I'm surprised Heaven didn't win there and then.
BTW, since we now know the fallen are/used to be Azmodan's personal army (which we didn't know in D2) it might be possible that Azmodan will be the Act I boss, since fallen appear there quite a bit but nowhere else as far as we know. Uh, maybe at least one good bit of info that can come out of this thread :biggrin:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head!
This is where you went wrong. The Dark Exile was not a massive secret plan that everyone in Hell knew about. Only the Three knew about it; according to Azmodan and everyone else, they really were fighting an honest war and they really were winning it.
Therefore there is no contradiction.
Oh, I see. But Hell must be nuts then. I mean the Great Conflict, the ultimate battle of survival between Heaven and Hell has always been balanced and nobody seemed to be able to hold domination for long. And then Prime Evils simply decide to get all Hell's inhabitants to fight one another and suffer countless losses...and after reclaiming Hell for themselves, they twist Azmodan's elite guard, a bunch of powerful demons, into those tiny little pests. That's what I call risky :biggrin: I'm surprised Heaven didn't win there and then.
BTW, since we now know the fallen are/used to be Azmodan's personal army (which we didn't know in D2) it might be possible that Azmodan will be the Act I boss, since fallen appear there quite a bit but nowhere else as far as we know. Uh, maybe at least one good bit of info that can come out of this thread :biggrin:
I assume heaven has its own plans. They saw that the three entered sanctuary and could not totally ignore this. I'm sure there were some attacks but they failed. They probably wanted to know what the three were up to.
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By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
1. It is possible to use the powers of the Worldstone. (Inarius for example).
2. The Prime Evils planned their own exile so they could corrupt the Worldstone and take advantage of its powers.
3. They would thereby get enough power to reclaim their status ín Hell and defeat Heaven.
4. This would explain why the Prime Evils aren't nearly equally powerful in D2. Mephisto is weakened by staying in Sanctuary (similar to Tyrael's inability to stay for too long). Diablo returns to Hell and is therefore more powerful. Baal manages to corrupt the Worldstone and thereby increases his own power beyond Diablo's.
Did the Prime Evils know about the worldstone, or where it is? Baal has learned of the Worldstone by possessing Tal Rasha but I'm not sure the Evils knew about the Worldstone and it's location beforehand. If they knew only a part then they are damn smart...what were the chances that Baal would be imprisoned in Tal Rasha and not some other Horadric mage who didn't know about the stone?
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A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head!
4. The Soulstones were the instrument for the Three to retain a large portion of their powers or even increase them, so their stay has no reducing effect on their powers since they have managed to corrupt the soulstones.
Wow. I was never really sure what benefit the Evils had from the soulstones in their possession but this makes perfect sense! You learn something new every day it seems.
Of course they knew about the worldstone. They knew everything about it since The Sin War.
Oh, ok. I vaguely remembered from D2 that Baal was somehow aided by Tal Rasha's knowledge of Sanctuary and I think it was somehow related to the Worldstone. Guess I was wrong :biggrin:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head!
Well considering that a lot of the monsters and enviornments in D3 have a whole page of lore on the site, I don't think its going to be a problem in the future. But the past Diablo games definitely didn't do much as far as story goes. Thats why they made the books canon, to give themselves material other than the Worldstone being destroyed. They certainly seem to be more dedicated to story than in the previous games, but either way we won't really know how deep it is until we play it. I don't think there will be as many blatant contradictions/confusions like in the manuals of the previous games.
They served as Azmodan's hands, performing acts that he would not, could not involve himself in. They were the instrument of Azmodan's first failed attempt to usurp power from Diablo and his brothers, and after that failure, the fallen were subjected to the full wrath of Diablo. They were twisted into small, ridiculous imps, in contrast to their previously powerful forms. Moreover, if they expected Azmodan to reverse their condition, they were sadly mistaken. The infuriated Azmodan held them responsible for the Prime Evils' continued reign, and so he left the fallen in their new bodies, where their degradation would serve to amuse him for all eternity. Their failure provided him with the information he required to succeed in dethroning Diablo and his brothers - the event now known as the "Dark Exile" - but that fact did nothing to soften his heart toward the fallen.
As we learn from Izual in D2, the Prime Evils have in fact masterminded their own exile into Sanctuary. The whole Dark Exile was a ruse. The Prime Evils and angels have IIRC sworn that they will not directly battle over Sanctuary and thus Prime Evils played themselves as being unwillingly banished there (therefore not breaking their oath). I cannot remember where I read that last part though so I might be wrong. Anyway, if the Dark Exile was a trick as we know it was, and Belial and Azmodan therefore didn't really battle with the Prime Evils (as true bloody battles over Hell would only tip the balance of power in Heaven's favour), the Lesser Evils merely acted everything out. Why then would Diablo then punish the Fallen for doing their part when they were following his orders or simply fitting his plans? If he did it merely to complete the illusion, why then would he or Azmodan not transform them back into their true forms once the Dark Exile was underway and nothing could stop it? The Prime Evils were risking everything, even themselves during the Exile. Why would they risk the success of their plan by weakening their own armies in this way. It would have been much easier to take over Sanctuary when you have zounds of massive demons watching your back. Imagine what a swarm of Pit Lords would be able to do to Sanctuary, compared to a swarm of Fallen.
The Dark Exile itself is a bit confusing as one doesn't know how much of it holds true and what is just lies and tricks of the demons. What is your take on this?
Something like that.
-Thomas Jefferson
I really wouldn't sweat it - it is obviously just half-digested Tolkien made after the game.
This is where you went wrong. The Dark Exile was not a massive secret plan that everyone in Hell knew about. Only the Three knew about it; according to Azmodan and everyone else, they really were fighting an honest war and they really were winning it.
Therefore there is no contradiction.
BTW, since we now know the fallen are/used to be Azmodan's personal army (which we didn't know in D2) it might be possible that Azmodan will be the Act I boss, since fallen appear there quite a bit but nowhere else as far as we know. Uh, maybe at least one good bit of info that can come out of this thread :biggrin:
I assume heaven has its own plans. They saw that the three entered sanctuary and could not totally ignore this. I'm sure there were some attacks but they failed. They probably wanted to know what the three were up to.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
Wow. I was never really sure what benefit the Evils had from the soulstones in their possession but this makes perfect sense! You learn something new every day it seems.
Oh, ok. I vaguely remembered from D2 that Baal was somehow aided by Tal Rasha's knowledge of Sanctuary and I think it was somehow related to the Worldstone. Guess I was wrong :biggrin:
Thanks, Air. If people have fun with it, so be it, but obsessing over the lore in a game like this is really a little odd.
Execly.
And lore is one of the many important things that separate Diablo from games like Torchlight. Diablo w/o flavor = fail.
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