If you don't want this thread closed then stay on topic and be polite to one another.
Thank you.
I changed the thread title, maybe that will help.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
How does a link to splinters prove or disprove anything? I already corrected the OP.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
If you want to compare DPS between skills of different classes, you gotta run a time similations including resource costs and regen, not simply compare DPS. In my spread sheet the character with biggest single target DPS is an wizard (ray of frost / spectral blades).
also the reason why Wiz takes 20% more time to kill leoric is because you're using Arcane Orb, an spell that is not quite good to kill bosses. Do it with ray of frost, you will see you will get even faster times then other classes.
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
If you want to compare DPS between skills of different classes, you gotta make a time similation including resource costs and regen. the fatc is, Wizard's can use his spenders muc more frequently then other classes can use theirs.
also the reason why Wiz takes 20% more time to kill leoric is because you're using Arcane Orb, an spell that is not quite good to kill bosses. Do it with ray of frost, you will see you will get even faster times then other classes.
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear!
The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
If you want to compare DPS between skills of different classes, you gotta make a time similation including resource costs and regen. the fatc is, Wizard's can use his spenders muc more frequently then other classes can use theirs.
also the reason why Wiz takes 20% more time to kill leoric is because you're using Arcane Orb, an spell that is not quite good to kill bosses. Do it with ray of frost, you will see you will get even faster times then other classes.
Simulators would work best, but its not the only way. You can use simplified versions of a simulator to get good ideas about where things stand. This game is nowhere near as complicated as WoW.
I was working on a wizard simulator til they started changing things way too much for me to bother updating it a long time ago. I will likely fix it back up later.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
I am talking about RIGHT NOW.
No I can't predict the future, how perceptive of you. But I don't believe that Blizzard is a god, and I have to have unconditional faith in them either.
The wizards dmg output is terrible atm in the beta, far below the other classes, and if these skills don't get changed it will be that way on release too.
The problem I have with this is that you don't even know how much damage the wizard does RIGHT NOW. The beta does not reflect their internal builds, and they don't make any particular effort to have things at all balanced for the released beta builds. The only information you have is that at some point, for some reason, someone at Blizzard wanted to know what the Wizard would be like at the damage levels you're seeing. Basing a whole "sky is falling" reaction with no real foundation to stand on just seems like a waste of time.
I agree with OP. History of the wizard has been nerf, nerf, nerf. For a while it was about -30% per patch. Gave me a sense that Blizzard lost sight of what the class was all about.
Wizard should be pew, pew, BOOM. Now they're ting, ting, pew.
Against easy trash they are fine, but the wizard is pathetic (compared to the other classes) against bosses and elites.
The problem I have with this is that you don't even know how much damage the wizard does RIGHT NOW. The beta does not reflect their internal builds, and they don't make any particular effort to have things at all balanced for the released beta builds. The only information you have is that at some point, for some reason, someone at Blizzard wanted to know what the Wizard would be like at the damage levels you're seeing. Basing a whole "sky is falling" reaction with no real foundation to stand on just seems like a waste of time.
Based on that logic we should never provide feedback. Even if there is something imbalanced after release Blizzard's internal version (i.e., Patch #1) could have already fixed the problem so we shouldn't say anything, right?
Thread is not a troll. Guy was watching one you tube video where it was shown. But blizzard is trolling us so don't worry. They give us what they want to test. They want us to test some spell mechanics, they overpower it and see what ppl say. They do other tricks, too to test the game. Don't think even for a second they use beta testers to balance this game. Sigh.
I'm so confused. How can you ALREADY be comparing dps when not all of the spells / runes are out yet?! Your argument is fundamentally flawed from the ground up, because not all the pieces are there to the puzzle. Now sure when the game goes live everyone and their mother will be posting about why 'their' class isn't the best. But this is beta.
Another thing that could have been considered while lowering the Wizard's damage is PvP. You can't have the Wizard be able to frontload tons and tons of damage, because then you'd have to offset that by having them drop like a sack of potatoes when they take damage.
They'll still have reasonable damage, comparable to other classes. The thing is, they'll have defensive capabilities too, so they don't die.
And if anyone's thinking "Well no one should ever get to a Wizard due to slows, stuns, etc., so it's okay for them to be fragile," there will be unavoidable damage in PvM and PvP. Barbarians will get in your face and tear you up.
Based on the Beta builds, I was taken aback at the mobility and damage output of the Demon Hunter compared to the Wizard. I wouldn't go around making claims like this until the game is released and we see how the class works. For all we know a semi skilled Wizard could go several pulls without barely taking any damage.
Based on the Beta builds, I was taken aback at the mobility and damage output of the Demon Hunter compared to the Wizard.
That's interesting, because in a few other threads I've read today people have been disappointed with the Demon Hunter's damage and putting Wizard in a pretty good spot damage-wise.
Unless I misread your post and you were saying that Demon Hunter was surprisingly low compared to Wizard in regards to damage and mobility.
I'm thinking everyone is just seeing different things due to gear and playstyle, perhaps.
Based on the Beta builds, I was taken aback at the mobility and damage output of the Demon Hunter compared to the Wizard.
That's interesting, because in a few other threads I've read today people have been disappointed with the Demon Hunter's damage and putting Wizard in a pretty good spot damage-wise.
Unless I misread your post and you were saying that Demon Hunter was surprisingly low compared to Wizard in regards to damage and mobility.
I'm thinking everyone is just seeing different things due to gear and playstyle, perhaps.
No, those were beta 14 threads Now it's different game. I wonder who is gonna get OP in beta 16, haha. Stop people, this thread is nonsense.
I find this post very interesting since I plan on playing Wizard first. I think that some serious flags have been raised -- things that I didn't really even think about. I think that it's about time we start comparing classes (as we get nearer to release). It's not too late for changes, and there are valuable points to be made.
However, OP, I don't know how you got some of the numbers you got. Hungering Arrow 200-300% damage? Huh?
Edit: There is a lot more to look at than just damage %'s though. Seeing the Wizard low compared to other ranged classes is interesting though.
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Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
This is an joke, you're ignoring resource costs, how the resource behave and the AoE/range of skills.
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Wizards recovers 10 per second, thats more then twice. If wizard uses similar skill (Arcanot Familiar) he reachs 12 per second.. If he picks astral Presense, he reachs 14 AP per second, doubling the DH's amount.
Theres no comparison, DH hatred are far more limited then an wizard's AP. You can throw items in the mix, but wizards have items to buff too, it's moot point.
Wizard's spell cycles are much faster then the WD and DH one, thats why he have "weaker" spell. Because his "strong" spells are much more frequent.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear! The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
c =(1000-20*1.5)/(140-20*1.5) = 8.88 casts
Thats without any mana return skills as well.
I don't have any idea what those calculations represents. WD's maximun mana pool is 740 and he has an constant 20 mana per second regen at all levels.
He can cast 5.3 bears with his full mana (740/140). However his mana regen is super low compered to wiz. While an wiz takes 3.5 seconds to fully recover the AP used in casting Arcane Orb, the Which Doctor takes 7 seconds to recover the mana spent in the zombie bears.
Also you're assuming the WD casts 3 bears, each one dealing 236% weapon damage (for a total of 708%!). Thats much problably NOT the case because you don't know if the same bear can hit a target twice and you don't know how the bears behave etc... Sure, if WD are able to cause 708% weapon damage in area using only 140 mana thats plain simple OP.
In this case it's not the wizard whos too weak. It's the WD, particulary, his Zombie Bear skill, whos too strong. 708% is the kind of damage that only appears in skill with 30 seconds or more of cooldown, NO WAY he will be able to use that as standard spell. It would make Wd stronger then any other class in the game and force him to use only this skill because it is at least 4 times better then any other skill available in the game.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
I'm not taking gear and spec in consideration because gear and specs are at dispoosal of all 5 classes. It's moot point. If an DH can triple his hatred gen with gear, theres no reason to think the wiz can't do the same thing.
Taking only the base stats as basis for our analysis, you can cleary see the wizard uses his spenders with much higher frequency. The most expensive ability for the wizard is meteor and it takes 6 seconds to recover all the resource spend there.
The most expansive WD spell is Locust Swarm and he takes entire 19 seconds to recover the mana back. DH takes 12.5 seconds to recover the hatred spend in Cluster Arrow (less if he have targets to use his generators, still you're wasting time using an "weak" generator ability while the wiz can fuctionaly spam arcane orbs non stop).
Wizard uses his strong spells far more frequent then any other class, thats an fact. His not weaker then other classes. He can kill boss as fast as other classes just pick the damn ray of frost skill or arcane turrent.
either way im still rollin' wiz. why? cuz of dat archon. besides things can only get better...i mean look at the monks doesnt that make you feel better already?
Im sure a lot of things will change once people are level 60 and have some decent gear. You can't call how classes will perform throughout the entire game based on 13 levels and ~2hours of content.
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its a fucking troll thread, are you blind?
lock it already for fucks sake he made the thread solely to troll. how do you people tolerate this shit at all?
Thank you.
I changed the thread title, maybe that will help.
Epicurus
It wont help. you demanded proof I gave a link, you ignored it. You continue to tote your made up weapon % dmgs as proof with 0 links or evidence
This is a fucking troll thread, moderators refuse to lock these threads for some unknown reason.
Epicurus
Cluster Arrow costs 50 hatred. A DH can only casts two. I know meteor costs 60, however Arcane Power comes back incredibly fast while hatred don't. This is also the reason why DH's hatred generators are so freaking strong, because he have to spam then much more commonly.
The same works for zombie bears. 3 zombie bears and the WD's mana is done. And his mana takes quite a while to go back. Not to mention zombie charge is a incredibly slow spell and has very short range.
If you want to compare DPS between skills of different classes, you gotta run a time similations including resource costs and regen, not simply compare DPS. In my spread sheet the character with biggest single target DPS is an wizard (ray of frost / spectral blades).
also the reason why Wiz takes 20% more time to kill leoric is because you're using Arcane Orb, an spell that is not quite good to kill bosses. Do it with ray of frost, you will see you will get even faster times then other classes.
THIS.
FOR THE LOVE OF ANYTHING, CLOSE THIS THREAD
I did not ignore this, I specifically made a paragraph about this.
50 Hatred for cluster arrow
60 Arcane power for Meteor
Depending on skills and gear you could potentially match the wizards resource regeneration.
4 hatred /sec + Bat companion = +3 Hatred per second.
Now consider generators. The Wizard has to use a rune to get resources, and its a laughable amount often times like +1 or +2. The DH gets from 3-8 depending on which spell/rune.
3 zombie bears?!? He could cast like 9 with some decent gear!
The ability to front load that much dmg is insanely good, and he can still cast cheap spells like splinters.
c =(1000-20*1.5)/(140-20*1.5) = 8.88 casts
Thats without any mana return skills as well.
Simulators would work best, but its not the only way. You can use simplified versions of a simulator to get good ideas about where things stand. This game is nowhere near as complicated as WoW.
I was working on a wizard simulator til they started changing things way too much for me to bother updating it a long time ago. I will likely fix it back up later.
The Wizard can't use his spenders much more frequently. Thats just flat out false. It would be very dependent on gear and spec, and even then I would argue that it would likely favor the DH and WD. For example, the elemental arrow on the DH can be casted and casted near indefinitely. Hell, there is a whole DH thread dedicated to making builds without using generators at all.
Epicurus
The problem I have with this is that you don't even know how much damage the wizard does RIGHT NOW. The beta does not reflect their internal builds, and they don't make any particular effort to have things at all balanced for the released beta builds. The only information you have is that at some point, for some reason, someone at Blizzard wanted to know what the Wizard would be like at the damage levels you're seeing. Basing a whole "sky is falling" reaction with no real foundation to stand on just seems like a waste of time.
Wizard should be pew, pew, BOOM. Now they're ting, ting, pew.
Against easy trash they are fine, but the wizard is pathetic (compared to the other classes) against bosses and elites.
Based on that logic we should never provide feedback. Even if there is something imbalanced after release Blizzard's internal version (i.e., Patch #1) could have already fixed the problem so we shouldn't say anything, right?
They'll still have reasonable damage, comparable to other classes. The thing is, they'll have defensive capabilities too, so they don't die.
And if anyone's thinking "Well no one should ever get to a Wizard due to slows, stuns, etc., so it's okay for them to be fragile," there will be unavoidable damage in PvM and PvP. Barbarians will get in your face and tear you up.
Unless I misread your post and you were saying that Demon Hunter was surprisingly low compared to Wizard in regards to damage and mobility.
I'm thinking everyone is just seeing different things due to gear and playstyle, perhaps.
No, those were beta 14 threads Now it's different game. I wonder who is gonna get OP in beta 16, haha. Stop people, this thread is nonsense.
However, OP, I don't know how you got some of the numbers you got. Hungering Arrow 200-300% damage? Huh?
Edit: There is a lot more to look at than just damage %'s though. Seeing the Wizard low compared to other ranged classes is interesting though.
Wizards recovers 10 per second, thats more then twice. If wizard uses similar skill (Arcanot Familiar) he reachs 12 per second.. If he picks astral Presense, he reachs 14 AP per second, doubling the DH's amount.
Theres no comparison, DH hatred are far more limited then an wizard's AP. You can throw items in the mix, but wizards have items to buff too, it's moot point.
Wizard's spell cycles are much faster then the WD and DH one, thats why he have "weaker" spell. Because his "strong" spells are much more frequent.
I don't have any idea what those calculations represents. WD's maximun mana pool is 740 and he has an constant 20 mana per second regen at all levels.
He can cast 5.3 bears with his full mana (740/140). However his mana regen is super low compered to wiz. While an wiz takes 3.5 seconds to fully recover the AP used in casting Arcane Orb, the Which Doctor takes 7 seconds to recover the mana spent in the zombie bears.
Also you're assuming the WD casts 3 bears, each one dealing 236% weapon damage (for a total of 708%!). Thats much problably NOT the case because you don't know if the same bear can hit a target twice and you don't know how the bears behave etc... Sure, if WD are able to cause 708% weapon damage in area using only 140 mana thats plain simple OP.
In this case it's not the wizard whos too weak. It's the WD, particulary, his Zombie Bear skill, whos too strong. 708% is the kind of damage that only appears in skill with 30 seconds or more of cooldown, NO WAY he will be able to use that as standard spell. It would make Wd stronger then any other class in the game and force him to use only this skill because it is at least 4 times better then any other skill available in the game.
I'm not taking gear and spec in consideration because gear and specs are at dispoosal of all 5 classes. It's moot point. If an DH can triple his hatred gen with gear, theres no reason to think the wiz can't do the same thing.
Taking only the base stats as basis for our analysis, you can cleary see the wizard uses his spenders with much higher frequency. The most expensive ability for the wizard is meteor and it takes 6 seconds to recover all the resource spend there.
The most expansive WD spell is Locust Swarm and he takes entire 19 seconds to recover the mana back. DH takes 12.5 seconds to recover the hatred spend in Cluster Arrow (less if he have targets to use his generators, still you're wasting time using an "weak" generator ability while the wiz can fuctionaly spam arcane orbs non stop).
Wizard uses his strong spells far more frequent then any other class, thats an fact. His not weaker then other classes. He can kill boss as fast as other classes just pick the damn ray of frost skill or arcane turrent.