After getting my Wiz to the point where I have very good items all around, the incentive to keep grinding just to get the same item with a marginally better role is losing its appeal, especially when their is no chance to benefit my alts. I want to gear my barb, but he's so awful and slow that it's a chore rather than fun and the fact that I can facerole high torments with my wiz means that I usually get frustrated with the barb and go back to farming with my wiz.
I would support some element of change in the smart loot system. An on/off switch seems a little too immersion killing, I like the fact that Diablo is relatively simple and you don't have to 'set it up' like some mod tool in fallout. But, just simply skewing it so it's a reasonable mix i.e. 80% smart/20% none-smart or 70/30 would be acceptable by most, I feel.
I feel another issue for me at least is the fact that I have invested a ridiculous amount of gold and time, enchanting and crafting for my wiz to push him down a certain build path with high elemental damage. I don't necessarily want to effectively start that journey again from scratch, when I already have a powerful toon that I should be able to use to speed up the process somewhat.
TLDR: There should be some synergy. Having a powerful main should be able to benefit your alts.
The only reason why anyone would be in favor of this is that they want to play on their main and gear up all of their alts.
You already get 15% drops that are not smart loot technically. I got an IK helm on my wiz, got a zuni mojo on my barb, got Jade gloves on my dh.
You don't have any direct influence on what your drops will be nor should you have any in my opinion. this is just one step closer to other suggestions like picking your own loot table and farming towards a specific item or being able to craft class specific set items.
I know you guys think that there are no cons and that this is just another way to give the player more freedom but in my opinion it's just a lame way to cater towards the players who are feeling unlucky most of the times unjustifiably.
You want crusader gear? then play your crusader. Or just play your main long enough and you will eventually get good drops for your alts.
In practice, this suggestion will indirectly shorten the lifespan of the game.
As I previously said in my post, a lot of people misunderstand the entire context behind the criticism that we've been passing since beta.
The problem some of us seem to have (and I feel like I'm talking for ruksak and some others too) regarding smart loot isn't the BoA aspect (that's actually a feature meant to solve another issue - third party trading), it's how often it triggers and how much of a nuisance to anyone it is.
It's not just that, it's a feature that outright attacks the core of the game - true random drops. And the fact that it got implemented with such an insanely high trigger chance. I could be wrong, but what it feels like is that Smart Loot (triggers) accounts for 80%+ of our drops when I check my inventory after it's full. We went from a fully randomized system to one that holds our hands that much?
I'm ok with the concept and what it's meant to accomplish, and I think it's probably good for Legs/Sets to be highly affected by it, but it's just a placebo effect. It's meant for people to feel slightly better about their drops, without realizing that when it comes to rolling the dice, winning "small" prizes hardly matters. People are still going to complain they didn't get a Set roll (which is what really matters in RoS), or that they Set rolled like crap (as most of mine did, except for the Tal's chest). Those are the rolls that really matters, and you can't hold people's hands on everything. It's particularly bad design how it's a "hidden" system (not shown in the tutorial or anywhere in the game).
Anyways, this seems quote worthy...
In fact, if you hate smart loot so much and want a way out, here it is: find friends/clan mates of the class you want to gear up and play with them. My demon hunter actually has quite decent gear already because I just play frequently with Demon Hunters. There are ways to get around smart loot.
The fact that a suggestion like that even makes sense (from a gameplay perspective) seems highly, highly problematic for me. "Ways to get around"? At its core Diablo was about hunting items, and I have to "get around" a system to find an item for one of my followers or for my Barbarian? Because said system triggers all the time, instead of sometimes? I just can't compute that.
As I said, I do like Smart Loot. Don't get me wrong!!! I think most of us really like it. I just think it needs some heavy tweaking to not hinder a core part of the game, and most importantly not to create a precedent for all future loot-drop systems (both in D3 or in any random-loot based game).
Oh, and ruksak got what I meant about the poll. I guess I should've explained my perspective better there =]
In practice, this suggestion will indirectly shorten the lifespan of the game.
In practice telling people "if you want X loot then play Y class" will shorten the lifespan of the game even faster than allowing people to choose their own destiny.
The more decisions that are sponsored by Big Brother the less-interactive the game actually becomes. Having to mostly-reboot the item hunt every time you hop on a new character only serves as a carrot on a stick for so long. It's like rolling alts in WoW.... sounds good in practice, becomes tedious in reality. I'm sure people will claim that getting one free level 90 character in WoW will "shorten the lifespan of the game" but that's pretty ignorant of how boring it is to level your 8th, 9th, or 10th alt to 90.
At some point you're just going through the SAME FUCKING MOTIONS over and over again regardless of the class of your character. Forcing people to do that when they don't want to isn't going to increase longevity for those people. It's just going to get them to ragequit and move on out of boredom.
You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Trying to force people to do shit they don't want to do is even LESS fruitful than squeezing a giant boulder and demanding a quart of blood.
I wasn't specifically talking about the time it takes you to level up alts. More like, all the times where you will get smart loot drops that are not upgrades for you. Without smart loot, in theory, you would have more gear for more classes in a shorter time since you will be finding less of the same items that are not an upgrade for you when playing the same class. Now, i can see how this can be a con too but when you mostly play in groups, it actually works out really well unless everyone are already fully geared on all of their characters.
I don't think that wow is a good comparison because you can't level up a character in 2 hours like in d3. Also, in d3 there is almost no reason at all why would you reroll the same class twice. Maybe just female barb if you really care about a couple of frames lost on the male's leap animation.
Smart loot was intoruced to counter extreme cases because of the boa system. Now that people are already geared up they want to turn it off... It just doesn't work that way, i'm sorry but it sounds stupid.
Wonder if everyone who pressed no knows what they are voting for. Turning off smart loot will not only help gear up alts but will help with solo players to get gear for their followers. Trying to get my enchantress geared with a crusader is not fun haha. Hopefully something like this gets added in.
Hmm, i have to admit that now that you compare this to d2's MF sorc i am kinda swayed. I mean, it was fun to have this one character that you geared up specifically for MF runs and used it to get the gear for the rest of your characters.
I can see how turning off the smart loot could be nice but it's hard to believe blizz will implement such a thing. Maybe a whole revamp to magic find is needed before they even think about changing the smart loot because as far as we are concerned, smart loot and the 85-15 ratio could have deeper implications that we are not aware of.
Maybe the introduction of a new game mode where in it, smart loot is turned off could be a better approach. Something like a different kind of rifts or maybe even make the loot from the caches totally random.
The fact that a suggestion like that even makes sense (from a gameplay perspective) seems highly, highly problematic for me. "Ways to get around"? At its core Diablo was about hunting items, and I have to "get around" a system to find an item for one of my followers or for my Barbarian? Because said system triggers all the time, instead of sometimes? I just can't compute that.
The fact that some people might want a "way to get around" Smart Loot should be indicative of the fact that it's NOT a one-size-fits-all option.
Smart Loot, as applied to followers, is obviously less-than-ideal. My WDs enchantress has nice gear. His scoundrel has significantly worse gear. Why should that be so? It's completely illogical. Why have followers if we need alts to gear them up? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
It's to the point that I basically ignore my followers gear unless they're the same main stat as the character I'm playing because it's too damned tedious. NOT FUN.
Smart loot doesn't bother me too much. I played my crusader for close to 200 hours and saved legendary items that my crusader didn't need for my barb. As soon as he hit 70 he was decked out in gear and easily doing t2. The only way I really feel like I am getting screwed is when I level a class to 70 and I don't already have one at 70 with that main stat. For instance my wizard is 70 but has like no gear. Once Ive played her for some time and have legendary items drop that I don't need, I can toss those towards a WD.
Smart Loot, as applied to followers, is obviously less-than-ideal. My WDs enchantress has nice gear. His scoundrel has significantly worse gear. Why should that be so? It's completely illogical. Why have followers if we need alts to gear them up? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
It's to the point that I basically ignore my followers gear unless they're the same main stat as the character I'm playing because it's too damned tedious. NOT FUN.
I agree with this though. Id love for blizzard to make followers account wide.
My main gripe with smartloot is that its about 95% effective, its not 100% and i do run into the oddball drops once in awhile still...you would think they would of coded this system to be 100%, i mean if its a script or something internal, and work 95% of the time (maybe even closer to say 98%) then it kinda makes no sense, because rng isnt really involved?
Example: on my dh i run a lot of farming runs, hours on end, of all the rings and what not i get (i get tons of rings) almost all are dexterity, but i do still occasionally get a int one or str, specifically i did a bunch of act 1 bounties on normal last week, and my first ROTG (or whatever its called) was a str one, even though i was on my dh...i had to farm it again, 2nd one was also str, so i gave to my barb, 1st one to my crusader, so finally after doing act 4 bounty caches, for 2 days, i get my dex one for my dh...so unless that ring just rolls random mainstat...its odd
Once in awhile i'll get 2handers on my wizard with str or vice versa, like my crusader getting a dex mainstat etc...these dont occur very often, but its just weird they occur at all, not sure if the system is way complicated? or not complicated enough? Wouldn't it make logical sense, to just base it on mainstat of the toon you are on, therefore 100% always getting gear with that stat? why they allow even the 1-5% chance to roll other stats is just weird
Rather than turning off smartloot i think they could implement something else entirely, what if all legendaries dropped and had wizard int mainstat, ok so you drop into stash, and log on your barbarian, now that leg switches to str? I know you can swap mainstats with enchanting, but that in my opinion is a waste of a enchant, generally you want to enchant a socket or crit or something useful, mainstat on a weapon should just be a gurnateed thing
So basically instead of farming multiple versions of the same legendary, because you happened to get a dex cindercoat, but need said cindercoat on your wizard, sure currently you'd just have to farm another one on your wizard...but i kinda wish it was more swap friendly
The only downside is that you cant really swap +skill mods, for example, a int 2h weapon drops that you want on your crusader, but it also has +arcane orb damage, ok so if what i was saying, that when you log your crusader on and use that weapon, int automatically becomes str, but it would still have arcane orb, so pretty useless, although...there's always enchanting, so either way i guess you going to have to enchant any leg u find to make it fit the right character
some would argue that by making all gear shareable like that, cuts down gameplay because now you simply farm 1 perfect rolled item (ie cindercoat) and then just swap to a toon that needs it, on one hand its ease of convience, but it also means less farming, less random roll/chance that many people love to do, finding a dex cindercoat, on a dh that isnt even have a fire build, or finding a dex cindercoat and knowing u can just toss it over to your wizard, i like that idea, but its not without its drawbacks
I'd actually prefer to go the other way. I'd like to turn smart-loot up to 100%. I only play Wizard. I just don't like the other classes so getting any item for another class is instantly salvaged.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And may the odds be ever in your favour. Emmo#2406
An even better feature would be to choose the active mode of Smart Loot, for example I'm playing as my Wizard but I'd like to hunt for some Barbarian gear, so I un-tick the Wizard in the Smart Loot panel and I tick the Barbarian on.
I voted "yes" we should be able to turn smart loot off; but I would not support the sort of system you just described. I think that's making it a bit too easy and gifting people a bit too much gear.
The fact that a suggestion like that even makes sense (from a gameplay perspective) seems highly, highly problematic for me. "Ways to get around"? At its core Diablo was about hunting items, and I have to "get around" a system to find an item for one of my followers or for my Barbarian? Because said system triggers all the time, instead of sometimes? I just can't compute that.
The fact that some people might want a "way to get around" Smart Loot should be indicative of the fact that it's NOT a one-size-fits-all option.
Smart Loot, as applied to followers, is obviously less-than-ideal. My WDs enchantress has nice gear. His scoundrel has significantly worse gear. Why should that be so? It's completely illogical. Why have followers if we need alts to gear them up? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
It's to the point that I basically ignore my followers gear unless they're the same main stat as the character I'm playing because it's too damned tedious. NOT FUN.
I don't see this at all. I mean, woo, that's a good piece with Int on it, stick it in the stash and throw it on ANY enchantress later on any character. It's not like you even have to get out of your seat.
As for It being tedious to play an underpowered alt, that's what they are until you power em up. I mean, everyone says they can level one in an hour or two.To me that seems tedious, you know, it's the journey not the destination, blah blah blah. Besides, a 2 hour old lvl 70 IS gonna have crap gear unless you've been setting it aside IN your over stashed stash WHICH to me is a pain in the ass. No room...
I don't get the tedious, if you feel it's tedious, don't do it. The only twinking I really see with a high level is for same base stat or even a second of same class to try different gear out. -> because I'm too lazy to switch out builds on the same character, and lets face it, switching a build with same gear doesn't work anyway.
I like it the way it is. If I want another class up to speed, then do it, don't whine about it being so hard. It's just a game, you're not digging a ditch.
Truthfully, the quickest way around what everyone is complaining about, and it's a small group complaining, is to group with other classes, which IS a goal of the games development. Mixed classes playing together in almost all situations is stronger, it encourages more interaction, and balanced play.
Smart loot is already broken, I have found set pieces for my barb, I have found countless xbow, quivers, crusader gear. Yet I still havent completed my own zuni or jade set on my Witch Doctor. I know there is a % of smart loot not rolling but that is just a joke, how about we fix smart loot rather then turning it off.
What people think will happen: BiS legendaries and set items for their class will rain from the sky.
What will actually happen: Wizard set bracers with strength, + armour, LoH, increased pickup radius and plague toad cost reduction
Another person who didn't seem to understand the premise of the suggestion and the criticism that some people have regarding Smart Loot. Affix limitation has nothing to do with it (that's a core item design, not affected by a "trigger").
What will actually happen: Wizard set bracers with strength, + armour, LoH, increased pickup radius and plague toad cost reduction
You might want to understand what is, and isn't, smart loot. We've already covered it.
Multiple primary stats (str, dex, int) and class-specific items with the WRONG primary stats, are impossible to roll now and have nothing to do with smart loot. They're a fundamental part of the base way items roll. If you completely disabled smart loot it would still be impossible to get a hand crossbow with strength and disintegrate damage on it.
I would support some element of change in the smart loot system. An on/off switch seems a little too immersion killing, I like the fact that Diablo is relatively simple and you don't have to 'set it up' like some mod tool in fallout. But, just simply skewing it so it's a reasonable mix i.e. 80% smart/20% none-smart or 70/30 would be acceptable by most, I feel.
I feel another issue for me at least is the fact that I have invested a ridiculous amount of gold and time, enchanting and crafting for my wiz to push him down a certain build path with high elemental damage. I don't necessarily want to effectively start that journey again from scratch, when I already have a powerful toon that I should be able to use to speed up the process somewhat.
TLDR: There should be some synergy. Having a powerful main should be able to benefit your alts.
You already get 15% drops that are not smart loot technically. I got an IK helm on my wiz, got a zuni mojo on my barb, got Jade gloves on my dh.
You don't have any direct influence on what your drops will be nor should you have any in my opinion. this is just one step closer to other suggestions like picking your own loot table and farming towards a specific item or being able to craft class specific set items.
I know you guys think that there are no cons and that this is just another way to give the player more freedom but in my opinion it's just a lame way to cater towards the players who are feeling unlucky most of the times unjustifiably.
You want crusader gear? then play your crusader. Or just play your main long enough and you will eventually get good drops for your alts.
In practice, this suggestion will indirectly shorten the lifespan of the game.
As I previously said in my post, a lot of people misunderstand the entire context behind the criticism that we've been passing since beta.
The problem some of us seem to have (and I feel like I'm talking for ruksak and some others too) regarding smart loot isn't the BoA aspect (that's actually a feature meant to solve another issue - third party trading), it's how often it triggers and how much of a nuisance to anyone it is.
It's not just that, it's a feature that outright attacks the core of the game - true random drops. And the fact that it got implemented with such an insanely high trigger chance. I could be wrong, but what it feels like is that Smart Loot (triggers) accounts for 80%+ of our drops when I check my inventory after it's full. We went from a fully randomized system to one that holds our hands that much?
I'm ok with the concept and what it's meant to accomplish, and I think it's probably good for Legs/Sets to be highly affected by it, but it's just a placebo effect. It's meant for people to feel slightly better about their drops, without realizing that when it comes to rolling the dice, winning "small" prizes hardly matters. People are still going to complain they didn't get a Set roll (which is what really matters in RoS), or that they Set rolled like crap (as most of mine did, except for the Tal's chest). Those are the rolls that really matters, and you can't hold people's hands on everything. It's particularly bad design how it's a "hidden" system (not shown in the tutorial or anywhere in the game).
Anyways, this seems quote worthy...
The fact that a suggestion like that even makes sense (from a gameplay perspective) seems highly, highly problematic for me. "Ways to get around"? At its core Diablo was about hunting items, and I have to "get around" a system to find an item for one of my followers or for my Barbarian? Because said system triggers all the time, instead of sometimes? I just can't compute that.
As I said, I do like Smart Loot. Don't get me wrong!!! I think most of us really like it. I just think it needs some heavy tweaking to not hinder a core part of the game, and most importantly not to create a precedent for all future loot-drop systems (both in D3 or in any random-loot based game).
Oh, and ruksak got what I meant about the poll. I guess I should've explained my perspective better there =]
The more decisions that are sponsored by Big Brother the less-interactive the game actually becomes. Having to mostly-reboot the item hunt every time you hop on a new character only serves as a carrot on a stick for so long. It's like rolling alts in WoW.... sounds good in practice, becomes tedious in reality. I'm sure people will claim that getting one free level 90 character in WoW will "shorten the lifespan of the game" but that's pretty ignorant of how boring it is to level your 8th, 9th, or 10th alt to 90.
At some point you're just going through the SAME FUCKING MOTIONS over and over again regardless of the class of your character. Forcing people to do that when they don't want to isn't going to increase longevity for those people. It's just going to get them to ragequit and move on out of boredom.
You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Trying to force people to do shit they don't want to do is even LESS fruitful than squeezing a giant boulder and demanding a quart of blood.
I don't think that wow is a good comparison because you can't level up a character in 2 hours like in d3. Also, in d3 there is almost no reason at all why would you reroll the same class twice. Maybe just female barb if you really care about a couple of frames lost on the male's leap animation.
Smart loot was intoruced to counter extreme cases because of the boa system. Now that people are already geared up they want to turn it off... It just doesn't work that way, i'm sorry but it sounds stupid.
I can see how turning off the smart loot could be nice but it's hard to believe blizz will implement such a thing. Maybe a whole revamp to magic find is needed before they even think about changing the smart loot because as far as we are concerned, smart loot and the 85-15 ratio could have deeper implications that we are not aware of.
Maybe the introduction of a new game mode where in it, smart loot is turned off could be a better approach. Something like a different kind of rifts or maybe even make the loot from the caches totally random.
Smart Loot, as applied to followers, is obviously less-than-ideal. My WDs enchantress has nice gear. His scoundrel has significantly worse gear. Why should that be so? It's completely illogical. Why have followers if we need alts to gear them up? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
It's to the point that I basically ignore my followers gear unless they're the same main stat as the character I'm playing because it's too damned tedious. NOT FUN.
Example: on my dh i run a lot of farming runs, hours on end, of all the rings and what not i get (i get tons of rings) almost all are dexterity, but i do still occasionally get a int one or str, specifically i did a bunch of act 1 bounties on normal last week, and my first ROTG (or whatever its called) was a str one, even though i was on my dh...i had to farm it again, 2nd one was also str, so i gave to my barb, 1st one to my crusader, so finally after doing act 4 bounty caches, for 2 days, i get my dex one for my dh...so unless that ring just rolls random mainstat...its odd
Once in awhile i'll get 2handers on my wizard with str or vice versa, like my crusader getting a dex mainstat etc...these dont occur very often, but its just weird they occur at all, not sure if the system is way complicated? or not complicated enough? Wouldn't it make logical sense, to just base it on mainstat of the toon you are on, therefore 100% always getting gear with that stat? why they allow even the 1-5% chance to roll other stats is just weird
Rather than turning off smartloot i think they could implement something else entirely, what if all legendaries dropped and had wizard int mainstat, ok so you drop into stash, and log on your barbarian, now that leg switches to str? I know you can swap mainstats with enchanting, but that in my opinion is a waste of a enchant, generally you want to enchant a socket or crit or something useful, mainstat on a weapon should just be a gurnateed thing
So basically instead of farming multiple versions of the same legendary, because you happened to get a dex cindercoat, but need said cindercoat on your wizard, sure currently you'd just have to farm another one on your wizard...but i kinda wish it was more swap friendly
The only downside is that you cant really swap +skill mods, for example, a int 2h weapon drops that you want on your crusader, but it also has +arcane orb damage, ok so if what i was saying, that when you log your crusader on and use that weapon, int automatically becomes str, but it would still have arcane orb, so pretty useless, although...there's always enchanting, so either way i guess you going to have to enchant any leg u find to make it fit the right character
some would argue that by making all gear shareable like that, cuts down gameplay because now you simply farm 1 perfect rolled item (ie cindercoat) and then just swap to a toon that needs it, on one hand its ease of convience, but it also means less farming, less random roll/chance that many people love to do, finding a dex cindercoat, on a dh that isnt even have a fire build, or finding a dex cindercoat and knowing u can just toss it over to your wizard, i like that idea, but its not without its drawbacks
And may the odds be ever in your favour.
Emmo#2406
As for It being tedious to play an underpowered alt, that's what they are until you power em up. I mean, everyone says they can level one in an hour or two.To me that seems tedious, you know, it's the journey not the destination, blah blah blah. Besides, a 2 hour old lvl 70 IS gonna have crap gear unless you've been setting it aside IN your over stashed stash WHICH to me is a pain in the ass. No room...
I don't get the tedious, if you feel it's tedious, don't do it. The only twinking I really see with a high level is for same base stat or even a second of same class to try different gear out. -> because I'm too lazy to switch out builds on the same character, and lets face it, switching a build with same gear doesn't work anyway.
I like it the way it is. If I want another class up to speed, then do it, don't whine about it being so hard. It's just a game, you're not digging a ditch.
Truthfully, the quickest way around what everyone is complaining about, and it's a small group complaining, is to group with other classes, which IS a goal of the games development. Mixed classes playing together in almost all situations is stronger, it encourages more interaction, and balanced play.
Why would any game be designed that way?
This thread almost smells of RNG.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
i want to play a crusader...i dont have a foote.....i dont want to play crusader w/o a foote....either i gamble or play with another crusader atm....
if i could just have crusader smart loot instead...i can farm for foote on a charc thats more enjoyable to me than a non foote crusader
Another person who didn't seem to understand the premise of the suggestion and the criticism that some people have regarding Smart Loot. Affix limitation has nothing to do with it (that's a core item design, not affected by a "trigger").
Multiple primary stats (str, dex, int) and class-specific items with the WRONG primary stats, are impossible to roll now and have nothing to do with smart loot. They're a fundamental part of the base way items roll. If you completely disabled smart loot it would still be impossible to get a hand crossbow with strength and disintegrate damage on it.
Try to keep up.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?