they are down to 70ish mil now, since how easy it was to roll the thing (crit mod and socket guaranteed, as well as high dex/int mod)
important thing is this:
the website tooltip is actually wrong, it took the average damage on that poison mod
AND one of the random mods can be another tier14 damage mod LOL
Yes, the best manticore isn't the 2 socket one, but rather one that's 1600+ dps with 1 socket, 100% crit dmg, 10% attack speed, 200 dex.
remember the 100% crit dmg only translates to 15000 dps if you have a high high base. each 100 dps on the weapon produce up to 5000 dps
So a high end manticore makes all ranged weapons obsolete.
a low end one makes THE best crossbow game obsolete (i was looking at friend's hellion that was 1367 dps (all physical), socket, 97% crit dmg and wow, that thing will worth nothing in a day or two, holy crap.
ok..so the best imagineable range weapon ingame is a legendary..and what exactly is wrong with that?
Well, nothing and everything. Legendaries should be "capable" of being so esteemed. However, we don't want to start Legs going in the direction of Rune Words. That being, a select few STOMPING all other items. Were this to occur it would be an unmitigated itemization disaster.
ok..so the best imagineable range weapon ingame is a legendary..and what exactly is wrong with that?
Well, nothing and everything. Legendaries should be "capable" of being so esteemed. However, we don't want to start Legs going in the direction of Rune Words. That being, a select few STOMPING all other items. Were this to occur it would be an unmitigated itemization disaster.
I was worried about this earlier as well. I'm starting to think they might have messed up a few legendaries roll ranges.
An item with guaranteed sockets, str, and say crit chance having a crit dmg range from 150-200% means that even the lowest roll possible already makes it better than 99% of the rares out there.
Still, the ship has sailed now (and it has based on community feedback) and all we can do is wait to see where we'll get. There's no way to know really, because D2 had such a different economy and player base. We can only hope
ok..so the best imagineable range weapon ingame is a legendary..and what exactly is wrong with that?
Well, nothing and everything. Legendaries should be "capable" of being so esteemed. However, we don't want to start Legs going in the direction of Rune Words. That being, a select few STOMPING all other items. Were this to occur it would be an unmitigated itemization disaster.
I was worried about this earlier as well. I'm starting to think they might have messed up a few legendaries roll ranges.
An item with guaranteed sockets, str, and say crit chance having a crit dmg range from 150-200% means that even the lowest roll possible already makes it better than 99% of the rares out there.
Still, the ship has sailed now (and it has based on community feedback) and all we can do is wait to see where we'll get. There's no way to know really, because D2 had such a different economy and player base. We can only hope
Have you seen the two-hander rares with 1600+ LoH yet? A friend said he saw one with 2k+ but I cannot confirm that.
Curious if any 2 hand Legs have this sort of LoH range?
You have it wrong. A Manticore with a socket and weapon % damage roll is the best xbow in the game.
So basically if it rolls High poison damage (286-667), 50% weapon damage, 11% attack speed, 100% crit damage, 200 dex AND 2 sockets, you have the most insane crossbow ever.
The only reason why it is the best item in the game now and beats rares is because it can have 2 sockets and roll weapon % damage over and above the already insane base stats. Is it a bad thing? I don't think so. A perfectly rolled rare will still compete. Just a perfectly rolled Manticore will be better. An ilvl 63 legendary crossbow being best in slot? Not the worst thing to happen to this game.
Apparently that's what most people want. Legendaries better than other items, as rune words were in D2.
Hmmm....yeah...no
Can't say that would be good at all. I feel Legs should have a very specific utility/application, something unique about them. And in accordance with making them viable, a high range comparable with any rare in the game. Rares should be just random as shit with comparable ranges to Legs.
With PvP coming up, I don't want there to be "required" gear, and said gears being only a handful of choices (Enigma, Exile, Fortitude etc).
The only reason why it is the best item in the game now and beats rares is because it can have 2 sockets and roll weapon % damage over and above the already insane base stats. Is it a bad thing? I don't think so. A perfectly rolled rare will still compete. Just a perfectly rolled Manticore will be better. An ilvl 63 legendary crossbow being best in slot? Not the worst thing to happen to this game.
They're going to have to extend dual socs to other weaps eventually, I assure you they will. I would like to see them do this with shields and helms. The addition of other gems/jewels to place in these sockets would create a vastly superior customization to the game than what is currently in place.
Do this with rares (dual socs) and they will not have any trouble competing with Legs.
Have you seen the two-hander rares with 1600+ LoH yet? A friend said he saw one with 2k+ but I cannot confirm that.
Curious if any 2 hand Legs have this sort of LoH range?
I was pretty sure those affix buffs only affected 2-handed meele weapons (axes, staves, maces, daibos), and not 2 handed ranged weapons (bows/crossbows). I could be wrong, though.
My point still somewhat stands, though; let me try to explain it. Took a quick look to try and find an example. Let's see the new Ouroboros:
Crit chance from 7-7.5%, that's almost BiS for an amulet iirc. If it was something like 5-8%, it would still be pretty amazing. Then 1 of 3 magic properties (these are main stats), 130 to 149. That's only a 19 stat variation, almost to the point where it doesn't matter (I doubt people would pay 10 million more for an extra 10 STR), to me personally that actually hurts the itemization game. It could be something like 120-170, and then you would have a significant randomization there.
The 2 other random magic properties would still make it amazing or somewhat crappy, so I guess the randomization is still there, but I wish they had been a little more conservative with the whole "random unique stats" (range) that the item can have.
Can't we just stop the grandstanding and... carry on grinding in peace?
Player feedback is key to striking a balance. When the developers (including the lead dev) are espousing their opinion that at launch there was no itemization balance, and currently there may still be issues going forth, I'd say calm, reasonable critique is ESSENTIAL in getting D3 to where we all know it can be.
Have you seen the two-hander rares with 1600+ LoH yet? A friend said he saw one with 2k+ but I cannot confirm that.
Curious if any 2 hand Legs have this sort of LoH range?
I was pretty sure those affix buffs only affected 2-handed meele weapons (axes, staves, maces, daibos), and not 2 handed ranged weapons (bows/crossbows). I could be wrong, though.
My point still somewhat stands, though; let me try to explain it. Took a quick look to try and find an example. Let's see the new Ouroboros:
Crit chance from 7-7.5%, that's almost BiS for an amulet iirc. If it was something like 5-8%, it would still be pretty amazing. Then 1 of 3 magic properties (these are main stats), 130 to 149. That's only a 19 stat variation, almost to the point where it doesn't matter (I doubt people would pay 10 million more for an extra 10 STR), to me personally that actually hurts the itemization game. It could be something like 120-170, and then you would have a significant randomization there.
The 2 other random magic properties would still make it amazing or somewhat crappy, so I guess the randomization is still there, but I wish they had been a little more conservative with the whole "random unique stats" (range) that the item can have.
Very well said, and all good points.
Speaking of RMP (random props), I just found a Devil Tongue sword hours ago. It provided an upgrade for my Monk and I like it....but the RMP's were 40ish vita and 40ish int........ohhhh I got boned. But I like it that way. If those RMP's had been LoH/Crit/IAS etc....I'd be sexing my keyboard still, as I type (which would be difficult I admit). Click the link in my siggy and take a peak at it.
I like the idea of having the random properties. But you still need the base stats to not fluctuate too much or you have the problem we had before 1.0.4, where legendaries were simply anything but.
The chances to roll weapon % damage AND a socket on a Manticore is very very rare considering all the random properties in game that can roll on a weapon.
The simple fact that legendaries are pretty rare (don't look at the auction house, look at your own game experience) it makes sense that they are as powerful as they are now. Are you going to roll the best legendary possible? I doubt it and that's a good thing. As long as its not terrible and relatively useful, everyone (mostly) is happy.
Yes, the best manticore isn't the 2 socket one, but rather one that's 1600+ dps with 1 socket, 100% crit dmg, 10% attack speed, 200 dex.
You can't get 1600 DPS+ with Manticore: Maxdamage on Manticore (33 min or maxdam is not calculated in here, best Manticore would have 50%ed and a socket or dex) is 1414.895 while Maxdam for a rare Xbow (Max phys. dam, 50%ed, 200 dex, 1.22 Attacks per second, socket, 100% crit) is 1643.34.
1600+ dps is only achievable with phys elemental damage on the weapon (enhanced damage works on physical damage but it is calculated a bit different:
Min dam: (Weapon base min dam + physical elemental mindam) * ed
Maxdam: ((Weapon base mindam + 1) + physcial elemtenal mindam + physical elemental maxdam) * ed
If Weapon base maxdam - Weapon elemental base mindam > Weapon base mindam than you get:
Maxdam: ((Weapon base maxdam - physical elemental mindam) + physical elemetnal mindam + physical elemental maxdam) * ed (this probably is the general formula that applies do the one above as well as weapon base maxdam can't get below weapon base mindam)
My brain esploded
It's good to see that the absolute best base damage possible still belongs to rares doesn't mean I'm ever gonna get one, though
What do you not understand about how Manticore rolls ?
+(143-286)–(334-667) Poison Damage
Increases Attack Speed by 10-11%
Critical Hit Damage Increased by 66-100%
One of 2 Magic Properties (varies)
+170-200 Intelligence
+170-200 Dexterity
+2 Random Magic Properties
Empty Socket
If those 2 random properties roll weapon % damage and a socket, you end up with a Manticore that has 2 sockets, poison damage and weapon % damage. The one socket is guaranteed, the second one is one of the 2 random properties.
Yes a perfectly rolled rare hellion with max min-max physical, max attack speed, max crit damage, a socket, max dex and max dex + vit roll will be better the chances of it happening are near impossible, which makes a Manticore with 2 sockets a much better item, on average.
Most Manticores have 950-1050 dps. I don't see the issue here. A rare can roll close to 1500 dps, 100 crit dmg and a socket too.
the issue here is that
manticore is a legendary and always guaranteed those mods. Even the 200 int/dex mod is guaranteed, and does not get below 150 or something.
So eventually we will see every DH and their mothers all using manticore, just different gear level and get different end dps out of them. Some will shoot them over 2/s, some will be 1.8 and we call those noobs.
Main problem with that, that I see, is it kills weapon choices.
hand crossbows will never get to 1/2 the dmg, and that bit of attack speed advantage (and let's consider LOH too) will not make it a choice to put down the core and pick up 2 godly handcrossbows, never a choice. While we at there, this thing can get godly amount of LoH as well.
And the guys questioning my math, please check AH for highest dps manticore. This thing will get above 1600 (with the fixed mods, 200 dex, socket and 100% crit dmg) 4show. Yes, sure sure.
And yes, it is a possibility to get a high end bow or crossbow, but not this highend.
Like I mentioned in the original post, I have friends that are using 1350 dps+ bows and xbows with high crit dmg mod and sockets, I'm using almost 1300 dps bow with 60ish crit, socket and attack speed. They are out there, yes, but none of them will ever beat the high end manticores, and it will be (is) much much easier to obtain a high end manticore.
Just look at, for example, legacy skull grasp having crit dmg or attack speed mod. The chance to drop a end game manticore is not less than that, and everybody (and their mothers) had a skull grasp. Hell, my mom does, for real, lol.
So if it stays like this, by the time pvp, all the DH will be using this thing. Only difference will be that scrubs will be shooting at 1.8, and well geared guy would be going at 2.1.
meh, a good bow beats everything in the long run (wf<3)
as far as i know, the random rolling another elemental dmg mod is with this thing only, i could be wrong
but either way, having only 1 random mod on the WF, and not a guaranteed socket meant it's never going to be that good, in term of dps.
WF is going to be an utility weapon. In group games, someone shooting 2.5 with a WF can be very annoying to take down, and he can allow his teammate to free dps to extends. Say 4v4 pvp, 2 guys with 50% WF and 2 with manticore, I'd like to see anyone (or team) get into range of that group.
not able to check the AH (since server is down), I'm having second thought of the dmg range of manticore.
I saw one that was close to 1400 dps, with socket, dex, crit dmg %. It was right before they closed servers down so I didn't get a good look at the mods and how it got there, assumed it had another damage mod.
However, looking at the site, I think that thing could of gotten a % mod
So 50% of 501 (lowest base of hellion) is 250, add that to 1180 (assuming such is highest base dps) we get 1430
that's potentially 1430 with 2 sockets, 200 dex, and 100% native crit, still CRAZY ASS BITCH
^
I think you forgot to divide by 1.22 for base damage.
I got around 541 for base dps
and yeah, even by your calculation, we talking about 1420 + 600 dps (from 300% critdmg, that's a very small number, for most people it would be 700+) + 200 dex (which is like 60-70 dps )
so the max dps equivalent of this thing is probably close to 2100 dps, if not above
vs. on a rare crossbow, it gets to 1800. And on a bow, maybe 1700
20% better than best weapon seen (for example, athene's "old" crossbow), and on him, probably about 25% improvement
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important thing is this:
the website tooltip is actually wrong, it took the average damage on that poison mod
AND one of the random mods can be another tier14 damage mod LOL
Yes, the best manticore isn't the 2 socket one, but rather one that's 1600+ dps with 1 socket, 100% crit dmg, 10% attack speed, 200 dex.
remember the 100% crit dmg only translates to 15000 dps if you have a high high base. each 100 dps on the weapon produce up to 5000 dps
So a high end manticore makes all ranged weapons obsolete.
a low end one makes THE best crossbow game obsolete (i was looking at friend's hellion that was 1367 dps (all physical), socket, 97% crit dmg and wow, that thing will worth nothing in a day or two, holy crap.
Well, nothing and everything. Legendaries should be "capable" of being so esteemed. However, we don't want to start Legs going in the direction of Rune Words. That being, a select few STOMPING all other items. Were this to occur it would be an unmitigated itemization disaster.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
An item with guaranteed sockets, str, and say crit chance having a crit dmg range from 150-200% means that even the lowest roll possible already makes it better than 99% of the rares out there.
Still, the ship has sailed now (and it has based on community feedback) and all we can do is wait to see where we'll get. There's no way to know really, because D2 had such a different economy and player base. We can only hope
Have you seen the two-hander rares with 1600+ LoH yet? A friend said he saw one with 2k+ but I cannot confirm that.
Curious if any 2 hand Legs have this sort of LoH range?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
So basically if it rolls High poison damage (286-667), 50% weapon damage, 11% attack speed, 100% crit damage, 200 dex AND 2 sockets, you have the most insane crossbow ever.
The only reason why it is the best item in the game now and beats rares is because it can have 2 sockets and roll weapon % damage over and above the already insane base stats. Is it a bad thing? I don't think so. A perfectly rolled rare will still compete. Just a perfectly rolled Manticore will be better. An ilvl 63 legendary crossbow being best in slot? Not the worst thing to happen to this game.
Hmmm....yeah...no
Can't say that would be good at all. I feel Legs should have a very specific utility/application, something unique about them. And in accordance with making them viable, a high range comparable with any rare in the game. Rares should be just random as shit with comparable ranges to Legs.
With PvP coming up, I don't want there to be "required" gear, and said gears being only a handful of choices (Enigma, Exile, Fortitude etc).
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
They're going to have to extend dual socs to other weaps eventually, I assure you they will. I would like to see them do this with shields and helms. The addition of other gems/jewels to place in these sockets would create a vastly superior customization to the game than what is currently in place.
Do this with rares (dual socs) and they will not have any trouble competing with Legs.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Amen to that.
My point still somewhat stands, though; let me try to explain it. Took a quick look to try and find an example. Let's see the new Ouroboros:
Crit chance from 7-7.5%, that's almost BiS for an amulet iirc. If it was something like 5-8%, it would still be pretty amazing. Then 1 of 3 magic properties (these are main stats), 130 to 149. That's only a 19 stat variation, almost to the point where it doesn't matter (I doubt people would pay 10 million more for an extra 10 STR), to me personally that actually hurts the itemization game. It could be something like 120-170, and then you would have a significant randomization there.
The 2 other random magic properties would still make it amazing or somewhat crappy, so I guess the randomization is still there, but I wish they had been a little more conservative with the whole "random unique stats" (range) that the item can have.
Player feedback is key to striking a balance. When the developers (including the lead dev) are espousing their opinion that at launch there was no itemization balance, and currently there may still be issues going forth, I'd say calm, reasonable critique is ESSENTIAL in getting D3 to where we all know it can be.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Very well said, and all good points.
Speaking of RMP (random props), I just found a Devil Tongue sword hours ago. It provided an upgrade for my Monk and I like it....but the RMP's were 40ish vita and 40ish int........ohhhh I got boned. But I like it that way. If those RMP's had been LoH/Crit/IAS etc....I'd be sexing my keyboard still, as I type (which would be difficult I admit). Click the link in my siggy and take a peak at it.
IMO...the RMP's are ingenious.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
The chances to roll weapon % damage AND a socket on a Manticore is very very rare considering all the random properties in game that can roll on a weapon.
The simple fact that legendaries are pretty rare (don't look at the auction house, look at your own game experience) it makes sense that they are as powerful as they are now. Are you going to roll the best legendary possible? I doubt it and that's a good thing. As long as its not terrible and relatively useful, everyone (mostly) is happy.
It's good to see that the absolute best base damage possible still belongs to rares doesn't mean I'm ever gonna get one, though
+(143-286)–(334-667) Poison Damage
Increases Attack Speed by 10-11%
Critical Hit Damage Increased by 66-100%
One of 2 Magic Properties (varies)
+170-200 Intelligence
+170-200 Dexterity
+2 Random Magic Properties
Empty Socket
If those 2 random properties roll weapon % damage and a socket, you end up with a Manticore that has 2 sockets, poison damage and weapon % damage. The one socket is guaranteed, the second one is one of the 2 random properties.
Yes a perfectly rolled rare hellion with max min-max physical, max attack speed, max crit damage, a socket, max dex and max dex + vit roll will be better the chances of it happening are near impossible, which makes a Manticore with 2 sockets a much better item, on average.
the issue here is that
manticore is a legendary and always guaranteed those mods. Even the 200 int/dex mod is guaranteed, and does not get below 150 or something.
So eventually we will see every DH and their mothers all using manticore, just different gear level and get different end dps out of them. Some will shoot them over 2/s, some will be 1.8 and we call those noobs.
Main problem with that, that I see, is it kills weapon choices.
hand crossbows will never get to 1/2 the dmg, and that bit of attack speed advantage (and let's consider LOH too) will not make it a choice to put down the core and pick up 2 godly handcrossbows, never a choice. While we at there, this thing can get godly amount of LoH as well.
And the guys questioning my math, please check AH for highest dps manticore. This thing will get above 1600 (with the fixed mods, 200 dex, socket and 100% crit dmg) 4show. Yes, sure sure.
And yes, it is a possibility to get a high end bow or crossbow, but not this highend.
Like I mentioned in the original post, I have friends that are using 1350 dps+ bows and xbows with high crit dmg mod and sockets, I'm using almost 1300 dps bow with 60ish crit, socket and attack speed. They are out there, yes, but none of them will ever beat the high end manticores, and it will be (is) much much easier to obtain a high end manticore.
Just look at, for example, legacy skull grasp having crit dmg or attack speed mod. The chance to drop a end game manticore is not less than that, and everybody (and their mothers) had a skull grasp. Hell, my mom does, for real, lol.
So if it stays like this, by the time pvp, all the DH will be using this thing. Only difference will be that scrubs will be shooting at 1.8, and well geared guy would be going at 2.1.
as far as i know, the random rolling another elemental dmg mod is with this thing only, i could be wrong
but either way, having only 1 random mod on the WF, and not a guaranteed socket meant it's never going to be that good, in term of dps.
WF is going to be an utility weapon. In group games, someone shooting 2.5 with a WF can be very annoying to take down, and he can allow his teammate to free dps to extends. Say 4v4 pvp, 2 guys with 50% WF and 2 with manticore, I'd like to see anyone (or team) get into range of that group.
I saw one that was close to 1400 dps, with socket, dex, crit dmg %. It was right before they closed servers down so I didn't get a good look at the mods and how it got there, assumed it had another damage mod.
However, looking at the site, I think that thing could of gotten a % mod
So 50% of 501 (lowest base of hellion) is 250, add that to 1180 (assuming such is highest base dps) we get 1430
that's potentially 1430 with 2 sockets, 200 dex, and 100% native crit, still CRAZY ASS BITCH
I think you forgot to divide by 1.22 for base damage.
I got around 541 for base dps
and yeah, even by your calculation, we talking about 1420 + 600 dps (from 300% critdmg, that's a very small number, for most people it would be 700+) + 200 dex (which is like 60-70 dps )
so the max dps equivalent of this thing is probably close to 2100 dps, if not above
vs. on a rare crossbow, it gets to 1800. And on a bow, maybe 1700
20% better than best weapon seen (for example, athene's "old" crossbow), and on him, probably about 25% improvement