after 14 hours of debate, at around 4:00 AM, here in Argentina the Senate approved (33 against 27 and 3 abstentions) a modification to our Civil Code that allow now for people of the same gender to marry... until today the law required for couples to get married to be heterosexual (or at least man and women), this law also grants the right for married gay couples to adopt kids as a coulpe, before this gay people could adopt but only as single parents...
this way Argentina becomes the first country in Latin America to legally accept gay marriage wich, in my opinion is a reason to be proud of my country... I understand it this way: Last night I went to bed in a country that discriminated gay people, and I woke up in a more democratic nation XD
anyway, I wanted to share this with you and see what do you think about this...
I know this might be a sensitive topic so please be respectful when stating your opinion.....
Leonardo DeVinci was a little bit gay, how can I not be a fan?
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I'm not a religious person, but marriage is part of religion imo. Aside from that it's really nothing special, you can promise each other you'll stay together without having to get married. Really, it's just a symbol of love. The love itself is what's important. People tend to forget that. Anyway, seeing as the bible is against gays, they shouldn't even WANT to get married. Let them live together instead...
well, actually is not just for love actually, at least here (I have no idea how this thing is in other countries)
there are many economic, inheritance, patrimony, personal obligations, alimony, social security and a lot of other benefits that comes with marriage... it's not just a contract to legalize love...
well, actually is not just for love actually, at least here (I have no idea how this thing is in other countries)
there are many economic, inheritance, patrimony, personal obligations, alimony, social security and a lot of other benefits that comes with marriage... it's not just a contract to legalize love...
Yup, all of these things have to do with marriage. This is why these "other" types of marriage-like contracts do NOT satisfy the gays. It's kind of weird because the US is based off of Christianity, but it's not supposed to mix church and state. And yet, what are they doing? Telling us that the bible says no to gays. Gay marriages should be legalized to acquire the same benefits as everyone else that are married, and those other social contracts just isn't the same! You cannot fill in your same-sex partner for the "spouse" field for official government forms! They won't let you. Even if you have every social contract available. There's not just that, but all types of other legal situations like visitation rights, inheritance, emergencies, there's a LOT of stuff related to marriages.
:/ On a side note, I didn't know these forums were run on Curse. New forum name it is!
well, actually is not just for love actually, at least here (I have no idea how this thing is in other countries)
there are many economic, inheritance, patrimony, personal obligations, alimony, social security and a lot of other benefits that comes with marriage... it's not just a contract to legalize love...
Ah. Well in the Netherlands you can get all the benefits of marriage without having to get married by signing a contract that says you're living together. They should do that for gays. But yeah, if that's not possible, let them get married I guess? Just not in church lol. And if a priest refuses to marry you, don't complain about it. It's in his right to do that imo. Find another one.
no, the debate here wasn't about getting married in church... just the civil marriage... of course all the churches here complained about this law, but is just a about civil rights (you know, state and church division and that stuff)
and here's different, you can't make a contract to have marriage benefits because our law considers family as an institution of public interest, hence we can't modify family rights by contract, only by law...
But Helfeather, don't you think this is a problem with those forms rather than a problem with marriage not being allowed for gays? Change the forms, I say..
It's not an issue of seperating government and church, it's an issue of a law specifically meant for religious people being used by non-religious people because there's nothing likewise for them.
It's not a problem with the forms, because on the state and federal levels they don't recognize two same-sex people as a married couple even if it WAS legal to get married. Same-sex marriage was allowed for a few months here in California, but it was voted on again and removed. However, the same-sex marriages that took place between the few months that you could get married, are still technically married according to state. However, federal level tells them that they aren't married, and therefore do not get some of the federal level benefits of being married.
See, here's the thing about the church and government thing. I know "marriage" is technically a religious thing, but there are so many religions that use the term "marriage" or have some form of marriage that is essentially the same thing. Say a couple that are atheists get married in some country like Thailand. They both come to the United States, and they're still considered a married couple. There's no religion check. People from different countries and religious backgrounds marry all the time, yet I see no problem with Christians saying they're not married. The government seems to think they're married too.
no, the debate here wasn't about getting married in church... just the civil marriage... of course all the churches here complained about this law, but is just a about civil rights (you know, state and church division and that stuff)
and here's different, you can't make a contract to have marriage benefits because our law considers family as an institution of public interest, hence we can't modify family rights by contract, only by law...
All of the churches, no matter where and in what country they are in, will complain about it. But you do have the exception to the rule where some priests or denominations or what have you, will perform the ceremony. That's where most court systems will step in. Here, you can get married by a judge. If the laws are changed for this to be legal, then the courts cannot deny them which would then be considered their right. Any law can be modified.
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no, the debate here wasn't about getting married in church... just the civil marriage... of course all the churches here complained about this law, but is just a about civil rights (you know, state and church division and that stuff)
and here's different, you can't make a contract to have marriage benefits because our law considers family as an institution of public interest, hence we can't modify family rights by contract, only by law...
All of the churches, no matter where and in what country they are in, will complain about it. But you do have the exception to the rule where some priests or denominations or what have you, will perform the ceremony. That's where most court systems will step in. Here, you can get married by a judge. If the laws are changed for this to be legal, then the courts cannot deny them which would then be considered their right. Any law can be modified.
I'm not sure I understand... are you saying that there might be a law to force churches to marry gay people??
if that's what you're saying I hope a law like that never gets even considered... otherwise religious freedom would be reduced to just a mere joke
No. Because here then it would take away the separation of church and state. I'm saying that if the church refuses, those couples can go straight to the court house and get married there.
If they were to force churches to perform the ceremony, a shit storm could occur from it.
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Imagine being a kid with 2 fathers... Your classmates won't be as understanding as the government.
I'm not religious, but marriage is one of the christian sacraments. And if the churchs disagrees, it shouldn't be allowed. At least name it differently.
So, option 2. Another legal figure, particularly one that doesn't allow them to adopt. Unless gay discrimination diminishes (which probably will after this law), you're just ruining a kid's life. I think that should be implemented on a 2nd stage when the waters are calmer.
2 same-sex caring parents will be better than a single heroin-addict one. Extreme comparison but perfectly relevant in our actual world where more people are becoming unwilling and irresponsible parents and their kids suffer as a result.
Sure kids will tease other kids, nothing new there. Depending on how the kid is raised and what he is made of, I guess he'll turn out to be a very open-minded and balanced individual or he'll just turn into a weak, whining, lay-the-blame-on-others asshole- the same as the one who is pretending to have turned into a criminal because his father refused to buy him a playstation when he was 8 and deprived him of enjoyment or having the same stuff as his other friends.
There are forms of marriage in every culture around the world and nearly every religion. Of course, like Christianity, most of them (well, all of them that I can think of) forbid or are not relevant to same-sex marriages, but I'd wager that's because marriage in all of its modern forms stems from the archaic need in agrarian (and other older forms) of society that demanded order and efficiency, not frivolous love, to get through the ages. Plus, if you go further back in to Christian history, into the age of the Church and when it would more appropriately be called Roman Catholicism, marriage was simply a business contract to better financial family lines. The notion of romanticism is a far more modern development.
So, all that to say...
Marriage, itself, is a modernly misinterpreted thing and, by its realistic definition, cannot include the union of anyone but a man and a woman not bound in love, although there's nothing against it happening, either.
However-
That doesn't mean that marriage can't be redefined. I think homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong, but if two guys really want to be together that much, better marriage than killing people, or a war, or any of the other things out there right now, right? Right.
And for the last time: MARRIAGE WAS NOT INVENTED BY CHRISTIANITY, WHAT WE OBSERVE TODAY IS NOT MARRIAGE IN THE SAME SENSE OF ITS DEFINITION BY THE CHURCH.
(If you read through the rites a traditional priest reads (the whole thing, today they often skip over the unpleasant parts), you will be surprised how un-lovey it is, and how faith is no were stated as a requirement, only that the bond is acknowledged by God, assumed by cultural stringencies. IT IS A LEGAL DOCUMENT WRITTEN BY THE CHURCH. Nothing more.)
Apart from my opinion up there, I learned all of this in Literature in a Christian school. I'm not making this up.
On a closing note, isn't it nice that we're finally getting good threads again? And I'm pretty sure membership is picking up, too!
And for the last time: MARRIAGE WAS NOT INVENTED BY CHRISTIANITY, WHAT WE OBSERVE TODAY IS NOT MARRIAGE IN THE SAME SENSE OF ITS DEFINITION BY THE CHURCH.
Thank you! I've been thinking that while reading this whole thread waiting for someone to say this. Marriage is not Christian. Sure, marriage by a Christian Priest is Christian, but many different people can do it. Rabbis, Ship's Captains, Judges, etc...
I guess it's probably just where I'm from (Canada) but there is almost NO discrimination here (at least on the Urban West Coast) against people of different sexualities. Sure, there is some. Sometimes it even gets violent. But race is a much more volatile issue here, and it's not very volatile either.
Either way, I (and most people here, I think) have nothing against Gay Marriage or adoption. One of my best friends has two moms, and nobody I know thinks its weird. I think as long as both your parents love and care for you, that's all that really matters.
I agree with Jetrall about the adoption issue... besides I think is good for children to understand from an early age that differences exist in society and not everyone has the same family model...
on a side note, in here, the adoption law doesn't forbids a homosexual to adopt, it forbids (or used to...) a couple to share the custody, hence this modification protects better to the child as he/she gets more protection for being able to have two legal parents...
The only object I believe to be significant in marriage is its symbolization of love, that being said I do not find it to be a necessary event. It is an old outdated tradition that is walked all over, if two people love each other that is all that matters. To bind yourself to another person for any kind of benefits, with love being put aside, is a sick act in my opinion.
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Who am I to begrudge two people that love each other the right to be married. If it makes them happy go for it.
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Give, expecting nothing thereof. ------------ BoD - Come have some fun! Folks will always come and go, so enjoy them while they're meant to be in your life.
I disagree. If you were to ask anyone from the Evangelical Church, they'll tell you it bothers them.
So? I do a lot of stuff they don't like. Doesn't mean I can't do it. Doesn't mean I won't do it either. Honestly...Screw "The church".
Airandus you hate the bible? I doubt you really know too much about it. It's an invaluable book to our history and culture. You can't be christian and hate the bible.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
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this way Argentina becomes the first country in Latin America to legally accept gay marriage wich, in my opinion is a reason to be proud of my country... I understand it this way: Last night I went to bed in a country that discriminated gay people, and I woke up in a more democratic nation XD
anyway, I wanted to share this with you and see what do you think about this...
I know this might be a sensitive topic so please be respectful when stating your opinion.....
Leonardo DeVinci was a little bit gay, how can I not be a fan?
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
well, actually is not just for love actually, at least here (I have no idea how this thing is in other countries)
there are many economic, inheritance, patrimony, personal obligations, alimony, social security and a lot of other benefits that comes with marriage... it's not just a contract to legalize love...
:/ On a side note, I didn't know these forums were run on Curse. New forum name it is!
no, the debate here wasn't about getting married in church... just the civil marriage... of course all the churches here complained about this law, but is just a about civil rights (you know, state and church division and that stuff)
and here's different, you can't make a contract to have marriage benefits because our law considers family as an institution of public interest, hence we can't modify family rights by contract, only by law...
See, here's the thing about the church and government thing. I know "marriage" is technically a religious thing, but there are so many religions that use the term "marriage" or have some form of marriage that is essentially the same thing. Say a couple that are atheists get married in some country like Thailand. They both come to the United States, and they're still considered a married couple. There's no religion check. People from different countries and religious backgrounds marry all the time, yet I see no problem with Christians saying they're not married. The government seems to think they're married too.
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I'm not sure I understand... are you saying that there might be a law to force churches to marry gay people??
if that's what you're saying I hope a law like that never gets even considered... otherwise religious freedom would be reduced to just a mere joke
If they were to force churches to perform the ceremony, a shit storm could occur from it.
Recruiting for East Realm
Also recruiting for Sc2 on both EU and NA servers
Bod home Page
Recruiting for East Realm
Also recruiting for Sc2 on both EU and NA servers
Bod home Page
I'm not religious, but marriage is one of the christian sacraments. And if the churchs disagrees, it shouldn't be allowed. At least name it differently.
So, option 2. Another legal figure, particularly one that doesn't allow them to adopt. Unless gay discrimination diminishes (which probably will after this law), you're just ruining a kid's life. I think that should be implemented on a 2nd stage when the waters are calmer.
2 same-sex caring parents will be better than a single heroin-addict one. Extreme comparison but perfectly relevant in our actual world where more people are becoming unwilling and irresponsible parents and their kids suffer as a result.
Sure kids will tease other kids, nothing new there. Depending on how the kid is raised and what he is made of, I guess he'll turn out to be a very open-minded and balanced individual or he'll just turn into a weak, whining, lay-the-blame-on-others asshole- the same as the one who is pretending to have turned into a criminal because his father refused to buy him a playstation when he was 8 and deprived him of enjoyment or having the same stuff as his other friends.
So, all that to say...
Marriage, itself, is a modernly misinterpreted thing and, by its realistic definition, cannot include the union of anyone but a man and a woman not bound in love, although there's nothing against it happening, either.
However-
That doesn't mean that marriage can't be redefined. I think homosexuality is unnatural and therefore wrong, but if two guys really want to be together that much, better marriage than killing people, or a war, or any of the other things out there right now, right? Right.
And for the last time: MARRIAGE WAS NOT INVENTED BY CHRISTIANITY, WHAT WE OBSERVE TODAY IS NOT MARRIAGE IN THE SAME SENSE OF ITS DEFINITION BY THE CHURCH.
(If you read through the rites a traditional priest reads (the whole thing, today they often skip over the unpleasant parts), you will be surprised how un-lovey it is, and how faith is no were stated as a requirement, only that the bond is acknowledged by God, assumed by cultural stringencies. IT IS A LEGAL DOCUMENT WRITTEN BY THE CHURCH. Nothing more.)
Apart from my opinion up there, I learned all of this in Literature in a Christian school. I'm not making this up.
On a closing note, isn't it nice that we're finally getting good threads again? And I'm pretty sure membership is picking up, too!
Really like how? You mean they cannot reproduce?
Well it could be very well natural seeing that the world is tending towards overpopulation.
Just a question(no flame or anything)- Is a handicapped person also unnatural and therefore wrong?
Because they definitely are removed from the norm.
Thank you! I've been thinking that while reading this whole thread waiting for someone to say this. Marriage is not Christian. Sure, marriage by a Christian Priest is Christian, but many different people can do it. Rabbis, Ship's Captains, Judges, etc...
I guess it's probably just where I'm from (Canada) but there is almost NO discrimination here (at least on the Urban West Coast) against people of different sexualities. Sure, there is some. Sometimes it even gets violent. But race is a much more volatile issue here, and it's not very volatile either.
Either way, I (and most people here, I think) have nothing against Gay Marriage or adoption. One of my best friends has two moms, and nobody I know thinks its weird. I think as long as both your parents love and care for you, that's all that really matters.
on a side note, in here, the adoption law doesn't forbids a homosexual to adopt, it forbids (or used to...) a couple to share the custody, hence this modification protects better to the child as he/she gets more protection for being able to have two legal parents...
Folks will always come and go, so enjoy them while they're meant to be in your life.
So? I do a lot of stuff they don't like. Doesn't mean I can't do it. Doesn't mean I won't do it either. Honestly...Screw "The church".
Airandus you hate the bible? I doubt you really know too much about it. It's an invaluable book to our history and culture. You can't be christian and hate the bible.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged