That's ethics. He made the wrong decision about how to get the money. But in any case, those are human ethics. Those would not apply to a god. Ethics do not apply to a god if omnipotent because it is the one that makes the rules.
Evil is most likely (if it exists) merely the absence of a divine good.
Oh and the whole Mary thing is not far-fetched if you put it into perspective. Which should be relatively easy. Religious people believe in a higher being that can do anything (insert countless impossible tasks of the bible) so Mary being a virgin is merely the will of God. It's not that hard to understand really.
But we should really get back on topic now. This is not the place for this.
Did you just say if evil exists? lol
And I understand how Mary could have birthed Jesus according to religion but I just think it's incredibly ridiculous to believe in something so random and unproven by anyone. (It just makes you add more "faith")
The religion was not formed until after Jesus died so how could anyone know about his birth? They can't....
And "God" according to the bible has ethics. And if he made the rules, then what are they? Because I can do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
And I understand how Mary could have birthed Jesus according to religion but I just think it's incredibly ridiculous to believe in something so random and unproven by anyone. (It just makes you add more "faith")
The religion was not formed until after Jesus died so how could anyone know about his birth? They can't....
And "God" according to the bible has ethics. And if he made the rules, then what are they? Because I can do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it.
Evil is a concept that may not actually exist. That's why I said that. Confused still?
There's nothing ridiculous at all about faith. It's a natural human tendency that effects a lot in life. We have faith in evolution and science the same way we have faith in religions. Is evolution a theory? Yes but we usually over look a few problems and commonly believe it as fact. That is faith. You might say yes, but we have proof. Wrong, we have evidence that could connect with the idea of evolution. Just because of (insert evolution example), does not prove the theory. Does ANY of this stop the entire science community from accepting it as fact? I should think not. In conclusion on that point, faith is a very strong psychological tool that can bring people to believe just about anything.
How could anybody know about the birth of Jesus? Well once again, it's a matter of faith. If the bible is true, if Yahweh is the father of Jesus and set into motion all the events of the bible and inspired those writers why is it hard to believe that they were given knowledge from god about the actual birth process of Jesus?
On a side note, before any of it was a religion, the bible was just a number of different books that documented what people believed to be history at the time. So lets avoid using the word religion with the book interchangeably.
Those rules of ethics are codes set in the bible. The idea is that we are created in the image of God so God gave us the rules that he himself follows and values. At least thats the general idea that you get when you read it.
God said this is good and this is bad so follow it. This statement is a little more open ended. From a philosophical point God doesn't have to follow any rules at all. According to the bible we were made in his image but he chose to do many things that are forbidden for us to do. So really, for God there is no such thing as doing wrong. For example, if you made a videogame and can program all the rules. It would be impossible to cheat if your the one programming it. You decide what is right and what is wrong, therefore whatever you say and do, goes. So statements about whether a god could exist on the basis of fallibility is really a narrow viewed point from a logical and philosophical perspective.
Just let me know what doesn't make sense. I'm being lazy and not typing out everything that I SHOULD type out because it would take quite some time. I'm just hoping I can skip through some of it and you will still understand. Ask me to elaborate on any point and I'll do my best.
Thanks for making this thread by the way. Hopefully we can have intelligent discussions. I will let you know now, when debating this type of stuff I ONLY take a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint because I find the other outlets such as science and religion far too restricting and cannot be used to sway anybody and will result in a useless debate.
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-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Are you inferring that evil is only things such as the devil and demons and such, or that it is murder and rape and other things?
I like your "rules" argument. I have nothing against it.
And for the faith part. Science does have it's fair share of faith, you make a very valid argument. But, with science, everything has at least some form of hard evidence which reinforces the idea which requires faith. Such as evolution. There have been new species in our recent history which proves that every animal was not created at the same time by a "God". Also, there was a moth in Europe which changed color(from light to dark) over a short time period because of the industrial revolution and it's smog.
Religion is solely based on faith, that is the difference.
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Ya I agree totally. I wasn't trying to make a point about the faith in science, I was merely using it as an example of another facet of where we use faith.
And yes, I was referring to evil as something supernatural. I don't think there is any other way to describe it honestly. I think evil implies something worse than natural good. To me there is definitely something unnatural about it. And if there is no God then in my opinion there is no evil, or true ethics. What I mean by that is that there are tons of moral rules set forth by tons of cultures. All of them have different rules. Socially they exist yes, but on a grand scale they really don't mean a thing. In other words, if we are only here for 90 years out of a time span that is infinite and honestly non existent since we as humans created "time", then whatever we do has no real meaning. I could go kill a baby and it wouldn't be "bad". Socially of course it would, but that is because our culture's ethics are based upon religion. Nor do I believe we have a natural (natural in the sense of nature versus nurture) inclination of good or bad. We may think we do, but really it is the influence of religious ethics or culture ethics that are based off of religion anyway. But then again, I have not taken any courses on psychology or studied the ethics of societies with no religion or religious influence, if any exist (I'm thinking like small tribal communities).
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
There's nothing ridiculous at all about faith. It's a natural human tendency that effects a lot in life. We have faith in evolution and science the same way we have faith in religions. Is evolution a theory? Yes but we usually over look a few problems and commonly believe it as fact. That is faith. You might say yes, but we have proof. Wrong, we have evidence that could connect with the idea of evolution. Just because of (insert evolution example), does not prove the theory. Does ANY of this stop the entire science community from accepting it as fact? I should think not. In conclusion on that point, faith is a very strong psychological tool that can bring people to believe just about anything.
I'm going to avoid getting into the bulk of the conversation, but I would like to point out some specifics I disagree with in this particular paragraph even if it isn't especially relevant to the overall topic.
I would consider faith to mean believing in something despite a lack of evidence. As such, one doesn't need to rely on faith to consider evolution to be true. Faith is only needed when dealing with something that cannot be studied via evidence(i.e. god, FSM, invisible pink unicorn, etc.). Faith is a natural human tendency, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a good one.
The other point I'd like to make is also just about differing use of terms. I would not consider evolution to be a theory. At this point, I think we have sufficient evidence to show that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and can classify it as a fact or law, as we do gravity for example.
And I know I said I was going to stay out of the rest, but I'd also like to state that I agree with Umpa's point about evil being an idea, not a tangible thing that truly "exists". Good and evil are purely defined by cultures and they cannot be said to exist unless first given a functional definition for that culture/situation.
"but that is because our culture's ethics are based upon religion"
Umpa65, you have this backwards. Religion is based on culture's ethics, meaning that even without the knowledge of religion in any form, the human brain knows that the death of a human is a bad thing. You see this in Island cultures which have no real knowledge of religion but still maintain the same set of core morals which almost every human on earth can agree with, which are, the seven sins.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
"but that is because our culture's ethics are based upon religion"
Umpa65, you have this backwards. Religion is based on culture's ethics, meaning that even without the knowledge of religion in any form, the human brain knows that the death of a human is a bad thing. You see this in Island cultures which have no real knowledge of religion but still maintain the same set of core morals which almost every human on earth can agree with, which are, the seven sins.
Not true. Those island cultures always have their own religion. And often times cannibalism is a big part of their beliefs. To them it's ok to kill or sacrifice when in other cultures it is wrong. If you can give a specific example of an island culture with no religion at all and still have the same beliefs as other people based on the 7 deadly sins then I would be more than open to hearing it.
Stoaster, I would love ot get into it about evolution but this is not the place. If you would like to make a thread about it I could tare evolution apart for you and and show you that indeed faith is a huge part of science
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
No one can prove if God does or does not exist. It takes faith to believe in Him. Personally, I think that if there's no God, then everything we do, and our very existence is absolutely and utterly meaningless. I refuse to believe that death is the end, making life just a meaningless trek.
No one can prove if God does or does not exist. It takes faith to believe in Him. Personally, I think that if there's no God, then everything we do, and our very existence is absolutely and utterly meaningless. I refuse to believe that death is the end, making life just a meaningless trek.
I agree 95%. I think if there is no god, we can still create meaning for ourselves. It's still meaningless but then personal perspective is all that matters so if you create meaning for yourself then there ya go. But I know what you mean though. However, lets hope this thread yields more discussion than "I think god exists!!!" "Oh ya well I dont so there!"
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I believe that without a god that life can still be meaningful and fulfilling. I think it is naive to think otherwise.
My personal belief is that our purpose on earth is only to make yourself (firstly) and as many other people as possible as happy as you can possibly make them.
Why try and satisfy a higher powers wishes when you can focus on improving the life of yourself and the people around you?
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
Have you ever heard of Utilitarianism because you just quoted it basically?
Ideal Utilitarianism- An action is right if and only if the net amount of intrinsic value it brings into the world is at least as great as the amount that any other action would produce in the situation
When it says "right" and "intrinsic value" it is referring to the ultimate good which is happiness.
But anyway. You missed Mephisto's point. He is not saying that life is meaningless to us individually. He is saying as a whole, there is no greater meaning.
To answer your last question. If one chooses to believe in a god such as the Christian one then by their code they are selflessly satisfying the higher being because doing so produces the greatest amount of good, by their standards of course. That is why.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yes I understood Mephisto and the "greater good" theory created by religion. All I'm saying is that religion creates an unrealistic sense of greater meaning, when the Utilitarianistic view creates a real greater meaning. I see it as the pay it forward kind of thinking, if you make even one persons life better than that person in turn will make another persons life better and so on. Therefor creating a greater meaning, which is world peace. I believe if everyone had this same view, no one could possibly be against one another. But of course the problem arises that not everyone will accept this view.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
There are older gods then the greek gods. Religion was created to control the population and it allowed the first rulers claim either the gods told him to that or that he is the god on earth until he needs to go and be replaced by the next one in line.
I think the first religion started in Egypt or Mospotamia(Iraq)
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And I understand how Mary could have birthed Jesus according to religion but I just think it's incredibly ridiculous to believe in something so random and unproven by anyone. (It just makes you add more "faith")
That's a funny thing to say. Obviously anyone who doesn't have the same paradigm as you would say the same thing about what you believe.
The religion was not formed until after Jesus died so how could anyone know about his birth? They can't....
It was written in prophecies in the Old Testament. Funny fact here that is often overlooked: Jesus was a Jew. Christianity did not exist until his ministry began, and was not called Christianity until long after his death.
And "God" according to the bible has ethics. And if he made the rules, then what are they? Because I can do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it.
If we're assuming a modern Christian viewpoint, they would be the entire Bible, and you are free to make whatever choices you want, but it is assumed you would be punished in an afterlife.
Weird, never heard of that before. A lot of things were cut out that were considered not canon before the actual "Bible" was "finished". Even today people add stuff to it, take out stuff, etc. based on what they want to believe about it.
There was no "original" Bible. That was the first Unless you are talking about the Tora, which was Jewish. Song of Solomon is kind of kinky, though, if you've ever read it.
The religion was not formed until after Jesus died so how could anyone know about his birth
I find you full of crap on this point. Because even during the time in which Jesus walked this Earth, He said that he was the "way, truth, light, no one comes to the Father except through me." So the "religion" of believing in Jesus as Messiah was around even during his life.
This was the foundation of the Christian faith that Jesus himself passed onto his disciples and told them to share this with the rest of the world. It wasn't until after Jesus' death that the first church started.
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That's a funny thing to say. Obviously anyone who doesn't have the same paradigm as you would say the same thing about what you believe.
You didn't really make an argument...
And the things I believe in have at least a smidgen of proof or evidence behind them, that is all I'm saying.
Can't you be logical and think that the story of the Virgin Mary was created to supplement the "holiness" of Jesus himself?
@Nektu, you are right, I was not specific enough with what I was trying to say. The basis of the religion was alive during his life but Christianity as we know it today was developed far after his death.
Side note:
Christianity is a CASH COW!!!! It is the WoW of the real world....... When you could pay for your entrance to heaven back in the dark ages is when Christianity became ultimately corrupt and drifted away from the core values which Jesus had devoted his life to.
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
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Did you just say if evil exists? lol
And I understand how Mary could have birthed Jesus according to religion but I just think it's incredibly ridiculous to believe in something so random and unproven by anyone. (It just makes you add more "faith")
The religion was not formed until after Jesus died so how could anyone know about his birth? They can't....
And "God" according to the bible has ethics. And if he made the rules, then what are they? Because I can do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it.
Evil is a concept that may not actually exist. That's why I said that. Confused still?
There's nothing ridiculous at all about faith. It's a natural human tendency that effects a lot in life. We have faith in evolution and science the same way we have faith in religions. Is evolution a theory? Yes but we usually over look a few problems and commonly believe it as fact. That is faith. You might say yes, but we have proof. Wrong, we have evidence that could connect with the idea of evolution. Just because of (insert evolution example), does not prove the theory. Does ANY of this stop the entire science community from accepting it as fact? I should think not. In conclusion on that point, faith is a very strong psychological tool that can bring people to believe just about anything.
How could anybody know about the birth of Jesus? Well once again, it's a matter of faith. If the bible is true, if Yahweh is the father of Jesus and set into motion all the events of the bible and inspired those writers why is it hard to believe that they were given knowledge from god about the actual birth process of Jesus?
On a side note, before any of it was a religion, the bible was just a number of different books that documented what people believed to be history at the time. So lets avoid using the word religion with the book interchangeably.
Those rules of ethics are codes set in the bible. The idea is that we are created in the image of God so God gave us the rules that he himself follows and values. At least thats the general idea that you get when you read it.
God said this is good and this is bad so follow it. This statement is a little more open ended. From a philosophical point God doesn't have to follow any rules at all. According to the bible we were made in his image but he chose to do many things that are forbidden for us to do. So really, for God there is no such thing as doing wrong. For example, if you made a videogame and can program all the rules. It would be impossible to cheat if your the one programming it. You decide what is right and what is wrong, therefore whatever you say and do, goes. So statements about whether a god could exist on the basis of fallibility is really a narrow viewed point from a logical and philosophical perspective.
Just let me know what doesn't make sense. I'm being lazy and not typing out everything that I SHOULD type out because it would take quite some time. I'm just hoping I can skip through some of it and you will still understand. Ask me to elaborate on any point and I'll do my best.
Thanks for making this thread by the way. Hopefully we can have intelligent discussions. I will let you know now, when debating this type of stuff I ONLY take a PHILOSOPHICAL viewpoint because I find the other outlets such as science and religion far too restricting and cannot be used to sway anybody and will result in a useless debate.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I like your "rules" argument. I have nothing against it.
And for the faith part. Science does have it's fair share of faith, you make a very valid argument. But, with science, everything has at least some form of hard evidence which reinforces the idea which requires faith. Such as evolution. There have been new species in our recent history which proves that every animal was not created at the same time by a "God". Also, there was a moth in Europe which changed color(from light to dark) over a short time period because of the industrial revolution and it's smog.
Religion is solely based on faith, that is the difference.
And yes, I was referring to evil as something supernatural. I don't think there is any other way to describe it honestly. I think evil implies something worse than natural good. To me there is definitely something unnatural about it. And if there is no God then in my opinion there is no evil, or true ethics. What I mean by that is that there are tons of moral rules set forth by tons of cultures. All of them have different rules. Socially they exist yes, but on a grand scale they really don't mean a thing. In other words, if we are only here for 90 years out of a time span that is infinite and honestly non existent since we as humans created "time", then whatever we do has no real meaning. I could go kill a baby and it wouldn't be "bad". Socially of course it would, but that is because our culture's ethics are based upon religion. Nor do I believe we have a natural (natural in the sense of nature versus nurture) inclination of good or bad. We may think we do, but really it is the influence of religious ethics or culture ethics that are based off of religion anyway. But then again, I have not taken any courses on psychology or studied the ethics of societies with no religion or religious influence, if any exist (I'm thinking like small tribal communities).
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I'm going to avoid getting into the bulk of the conversation, but I would like to point out some specifics I disagree with in this particular paragraph even if it isn't especially relevant to the overall topic.
I would consider faith to mean believing in something despite a lack of evidence. As such, one doesn't need to rely on faith to consider evolution to be true. Faith is only needed when dealing with something that cannot be studied via evidence(i.e. god, FSM, invisible pink unicorn, etc.). Faith is a natural human tendency, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a good one.
The other point I'd like to make is also just about differing use of terms. I would not consider evolution to be a theory. At this point, I think we have sufficient evidence to show that it has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt and can classify it as a fact or law, as we do gravity for example.
And I know I said I was going to stay out of the rest, but I'd also like to state that I agree with Umpa's point about evil being an idea, not a tangible thing that truly "exists". Good and evil are purely defined by cultures and they cannot be said to exist unless first given a functional definition for that culture/situation.
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"but that is because our culture's ethics are based upon religion"
Umpa65, you have this backwards. Religion is based on culture's ethics, meaning that even without the knowledge of religion in any form, the human brain knows that the death of a human is a bad thing. You see this in Island cultures which have no real knowledge of religion but still maintain the same set of core morals which almost every human on earth can agree with, which are, the seven sins.
Not true. Those island cultures always have their own religion. And often times cannibalism is a big part of their beliefs. To them it's ok to kill or sacrifice when in other cultures it is wrong. If you can give a specific example of an island culture with no religion at all and still have the same beliefs as other people based on the 7 deadly sins then I would be more than open to hearing it.
Stoaster, I would love ot get into it about evolution but this is not the place. If you would like to make a thread about it I could tare evolution apart for you and and show you that indeed faith is a huge part of science
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
No one can prove if God does or does not exist. It takes faith to believe in Him. Personally, I think that if there's no God, then everything we do, and our very existence is absolutely and utterly meaningless. I refuse to believe that death is the end, making life just a meaningless trek.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
I agree 95%. I think if there is no god, we can still create meaning for ourselves. It's still meaningless but then personal perspective is all that matters so if you create meaning for yourself then there ya go. But I know what you mean though. However, lets hope this thread yields more discussion than "I think god exists!!!" "Oh ya well I dont so there!"
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
My personal belief is that our purpose on earth is only to make yourself (firstly) and as many other people as possible as happy as you can possibly make them.
Why try and satisfy a higher powers wishes when you can focus on improving the life of yourself and the people around you?
Ideal Utilitarianism- An action is right if and only if the net amount of intrinsic value it brings into the world is at least as great as the amount that any other action would produce in the situation
When it says "right" and "intrinsic value" it is referring to the ultimate good which is happiness.
But anyway. You missed Mephisto's point. He is not saying that life is meaningless to us individually. He is saying as a whole, there is no greater meaning.
To answer your last question. If one chooses to believe in a god such as the Christian one then by their code they are selflessly satisfying the higher being because doing so produces the greatest amount of good, by their standards of course. That is why.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
No need to rant about random things not related to the discussion...
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think the first religion started in Egypt or Mospotamia(Iraq)
That's a funny thing to say. Obviously anyone who doesn't have the same paradigm as you would say the same thing about what you believe.
It was written in prophecies in the Old Testament. Funny fact here that is often overlooked: Jesus was a Jew. Christianity did not exist until his ministry began, and was not called Christianity until long after his death.
If we're assuming a modern Christian viewpoint, they would be the entire Bible, and you are free to make whatever choices you want, but it is assumed you would be punished in an afterlife.
I find you full of crap on this point. Because even during the time in which Jesus walked this Earth, He said that he was the "way, truth, light, no one comes to the Father except through me." So the "religion" of believing in Jesus as Messiah was around even during his life.
This was the foundation of the Christian faith that Jesus himself passed onto his disciples and told them to share this with the rest of the world. It wasn't until after Jesus' death that the first church started.
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You didn't really make an argument...
And the things I believe in have at least a smidgen of proof or evidence behind them, that is all I'm saying.
Can't you be logical and think that the story of the Virgin Mary was created to supplement the "holiness" of Jesus himself?
@Nektu, you are right, I was not specific enough with what I was trying to say. The basis of the religion was alive during his life but Christianity as we know it today was developed far after his death.
Side note:
Christianity is a CASH COW!!!! It is the WoW of the real world....... When you could pay for your entrance to heaven back in the dark ages is when Christianity became ultimately corrupt and drifted away from the core values which Jesus had devoted his life to.