Has any one else ever thought what if the so called "Good" is actually the "Bad" people and the so called "Evil/Bad" people are could actually be the "Good" people?
Well i know i have.. What if the angels are just trying to keep the human race back from realizeing certain things.. What if they are keeping secrets from us to make us think that "Hell" is a place of great evil, What if they are keeping secrets from us to make us think that "Demons" are "Bad"..
If you feel anything on this subject anything at all please don't heisatate to post :thumbsup:
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
Since it's been the demons that have been killing so many humans in the Diablo universe, I'd have to say there's a certain flaw in the theory. But that doesn't mean that the 'heavenly forces' and angels aren't evil badasses in disquise
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Quote from "KonataX" »
lol it can still easily be a ranger since who said you cant shoot arrows at melee distance xD
Quote from "Archie" »
The Barbarian is from Arreat, a very cold snowy mountain top, but they are much tougher than normal humans, so they don't need warmth.
Quote from "Archie" »
Where are Barbarians originally from? Sumeria, or more specifically Mesopotamia, AKA Europe. Think the Alps and the Pyrenees
basically most peoples description of good comes from holy. and holy somewhat comes from god. (i hate using a christian idea for this but its really the only way) mainly a bunch of people who put the bible together said that christianity is the good. well that was there opinion. how do we know that its bad???
lol just the other day i was thinking of what if hell was actually the word for heaven. and vice versa.
basically most peoples description of good comes from holy. and holy somewhat comes from god. (i hate using a christian idea for this but its really the only way) mainly a bunch of people who put the bible together said that christianity is the good. well that was there opinion. how do we know that its bad???
lol just the other day i was thinking of what if hell was actually the word for heaven. and vice versa.
its good to see a few ppl that actually agree with me lol.. and yes thats a very good point man how are we to actually know.. good point man i hope to hear more
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
What you think of as good might be evil, but what I think of good is good. Everyone has their own opinion about what is good and evil so in my mind I’m the only one that is right. I guess my answer shouldn’t have been "NO" but more of "it depends on how you look at it".
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"The most tragic thing about religion is that evangelical people who have such a degree of blind faith, who do and believe terrible things because they are sold as the will of God. Unfortunately this is almost half of America and leads to such things as electing George Bush, twice..."
What you think of as good might be evil, but what I think of good is good. Everyone has their own opinion about what is good and evil so in my mind I’m the only one that is right. I guess my answer shouldn’t have been "NO" but more of "it depends on how you look at it".
Good point man.. and thats exactly what im looking for in this thread.. is peoples opinions on this subject lol.. i just want to know what people think lol >.> :thumbsup:
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
I think it is hard to say who is evil and who is good, it always depends on the eye of the reveiver, I mean it depends on one's likes and dislikes, sure there is a big conception that evil is bad, because of murder and such, but you also have to view the good example *good* police who still kill.
I lol'd when I read this. Just wanted you to know^_^
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Quote from "KonataX" »
lol it can still easily be a ranger since who said you cant shoot arrows at melee distance xD
Quote from "Archie" »
The Barbarian is from Arreat, a very cold snowy mountain top, but they are much tougher than normal humans, so they don't need warmth.
Quote from "Archie" »
Where are Barbarians originally from? Sumeria, or more specifically Mesopotamia, AKA Europe. Think the Alps and the Pyrenees
The problem with this is people can't all just say everything is good, because everyone's ideals would be conflicting. For instance, a rapist can't say that a Christian is good as well as himself/herself (though I really doubt a rapist would consider them self good, based on the basic morals most people accept from the time they are able to think), and likewise a Christian couldn't consider a rapist good. Their ideas on sexual purity contradict each other. (I only used Christian in this example because I couldn't think of another sect of people that have a moral law specifically forbidding rape- I'm sure there are others, but I'm very tired and can't think of any that explicitly state it.)
And if you think about it, on the religious level, you can't consider one Christian to be good and the others bad, or one bad and the others good (referring to a single religion, and more specifically a single denomination within that religion), because all people within the same religion (and/or denomination) would follow the same principles, and would also have to be evil. That same principle can apply to any religion. It's an all-or-nothing-type deal. Not that anyone raised this topic, but I thought it was an interesting thought.
Andulien had a very good point, too. Good and bad hasn't always and isn't always based on morals- it can be based on strength.
And, swaying away from the moral issue at question here, other trends that are good or bad can be interesting to look at, too. I mean, during the Baroque era of music, a lady or gentleman being obese was considered "fashionably good/ sexually good/attractive" because it signified the person's wealth. Now we know better, and it's the opposite. Or at least I think we know better... I hope so... ?
And I didn't choose either in the poll because 1) it's public and anyone can see who answered what, which could be bad if people decide to start hounding people (yes, it happens) and 2) I haven't really made a decision on the topic yet for myself.
This is kind of a random place for this thread, though. Why didn't you just put it in the off-topic section so that more people would view/reply to it?
Oh no, I don't think I could be offended by that. 1) It was a good read and 2) I don't really have positions on anything yet.
Ah, and if anyone was wondering, the reason I used the baroque music era as a reference is because I couldn't think of the actual date-type thing for the time frame I was thinking of. I'm probably wrong, though I do remember reading, though, that at some point that was a fact.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this will make sense, but eh.
If you accept everything as good in essence (which I don't think is the issue at debate here, but I still want to add this), then you have no morals or standards (besides everything being good in nature), and thus cannot say someone is wrong for doing anything, and must say that they're right for anything they do. Therefore, if you take that position, you cannot say someone is wrong for saying that there is absolute good and absolute evil, and would be forced to say that they're right (along with everyone else.) But then, if they're right, you're wrong. And if you're wrong, there's absolute good and evil. And if they're right, then everything else must be wrong in reference to good and evil besides their point of view. Erm... I think I'm confusing myself...
Now that I think of it, I was blurring the distinction between "right" and "good". Right means correct in relation to any standard. Good is only correct in relation to moral values... I think?
well i see that i leave for a while and i come back to a very good discussion going on in here lol xD.. well im glad that you guys are voiceing your opionins that is defiantly the main reason i made this thread..
I'm sorry i didn't put this into the "Off topic" portion im just starting back up on this so i gotta relearn a bunch of stuff >.>..
i myself do believe in a "Good" and "Evil concept but im not to sure on which is which sometimes.. im going to go back to the D2 theme here.. how are we suppose 2 truly know that the so called "Demons" aren't actually trying to liberate the humans from some kind of hold that the angels could have on them? I'll stop at that because i can't think of much else right now >.> lol
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
Ah so the main reasoning here that you want to start is how do we know if evil in Diablo is really evil, and if Diablo himself was not just sitting having tea there in hell, while the Necromancer comes running in and trying to kill him thought he is suppose to be the good guy.
Did I kind of hit your question right there??
hahaha!! thats good stuff man.. but ya thats kinda what im getting at but the topic it kind of got onto was good as well lol.. man i laughed at that xD.. i wonder if D was just having tea though >.> :thumbsup:
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
Well, since this is a Diablo site, why don't we use the game universe as our reference for our various arguments?
I think it's wrong to diminish human life. Period. Why? Well, if you're an evolutionist, you're denying the fact that every species is striving to become the dominate species. If we kill ourselves, how the hell are we going to stay the dominate species? If your a Christian, well, it's a law (with the exception of war to counter unchristian rule or laws, but that isn't what the thread is about .) If you're the average no-nonsense guy that doesn't get in to this stuff, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like killing someone, unless you're some kind of psychopath. It's just natural, really. You don't just kill people unless you're a psycho.
So, because of the preceding paragraph, I believe this: The Prime Evils and all of demonkind is evil because they pose a direct and/or indirect threat to the growth and perseverance of humankind.
Now, here's the tricky part: Is it good to kill a living thing that is killing humans?
Now, generally I value human life over that of animals ( note that I said "life" and not "comfort", which should never be confused.) However, demons seem to be both animal-like (in that they are mostly based on instinct, not rational thought) and also can maintain a "thinking" mind, which would be characteristic of a human, and not an animal (there is a little debate here, but generally, this holds true.) So, I cannot put all demons in the same category as animals, and thus could not be justified in my mind with killing them to prevent the deaths of fellow humans.
So from here I would stem to: Is it good to kill another human that is killing other humans?
My answer here is yes.
My reasoning is this: One death is better than more than one death carried-out by the one doing the primary killing.
The primary killer is the human killing other humans, and the secondary killer is the killer of the primary killer. So, the secondary killer would be acting as a sort of anti-virus to the primary killer- by killing the primary killer the secondary killer is preventing the spread of death on a larger scale than that of simply killing the primary killer.
So, with all of that reasoning behind my thoughts, I conclude that it is good to kill demons, which kill others of my species, a lot of times just out of bloodlust.
It's simple, good and evil are feelings perceived from a specific frame of reference or if you prefer from a specific person, so the notions of good and evil are different from one subject to another. Angels can be seen as good protectors from one point of view, but they could also be seen as an oppressive source of authority from another (if you read the Sin War think about Inarius). Same goes for demons and other humans.
I really like your argument, and honestly do agree with that too, I couldn't have said it better myself.
But for the sake of argument, and for the sake of this Thread not being closed yet here is another thought to try to counter you argument.
Let's see if I can do that.
Well you brought up in the beginning that people are not killing because they want to be the dominant race, and it would be bad if we would be killing each other, because we want to be dominant.
Now let's get back to Diablo, since that is the main thing we are arguing about here right now.
Just take a look at all levels, are the demons killing each other? Are they hurting each other?
The clear answer has to be no. So then is the next point that you said, better kill one that many being killed. Well if you look at the main character, he is the one who is killing many thought on the otherhand the demons are just trying to kill this one, so that they will stay alive and trying to be dominant just like humans.
I know there is still the big argument about who is more intelligent, but let's take just for the sake of it, a little bit more than just the game. Demons have a mind of their own too, sure it might now be tremendously advanced, but if you think back a long time ago, humans were not that intelligent either.
My main question now is:
So how can we justify that the Demons are really the evil one's since like you said in your example, just like humans they just want to be the dominant race and therefore want to protect their race from any harm there may be.
Let take a simple other example out of the real life. Let's take mhhh a Lion.
Lion's are living with each other sometimes 10 or more I'm not sure but many together.
Now they are just living their normal live, but as their clan grows bigger and bigger, they will need more space, and do want to protect one another, because in the space they need, they want to be the dominant beings.
Now if a human were to intrude their territory, and would disturb them, may it be in any kind of way, the Lions are most likly to attack the human in order to protect the rest, because he see's a threat.
Now the big question again is, is the Lion now bad because is just is protecting its fellow lions and want to be safe and dominant in it's space.
Wouldn't sometimes even go as far as to say the human is bad, because he/she intruded the lions territory and desturbed the Lions?
Now the same in Diablo with the Demons and our Character and people, couldn't it be that they are the intruders in the demon world? Wasn't they who went down to hell to disturb the Lion Diablo in his territory?
So again the question what is good or bad?
Anyway, I'm sry to have to say that, but it is 00:38 here already so past midnight so I'll be going to bed now, and will return tomorrow to read your answer
wow very well thought out man.. you both have great detail to support your story.. and i must agree with you here.. thats a great example with the "Lion" trying to protect his territory from the invadeing "Humans"..
And to add more support to this claim, i say is it not the humans thats keep advanceing further and further into the demon world? the Demons ( that reside in hell/baals domian ) are happily staying in hell.. so why must we keep purseing the demons after we have "Protected" our "Territory"?
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You should not fear death but embrace it 4 death is a release from the pain that you suffer on earth..
First I'd like to say how wonderful it is that this is an intelligent argument so far and how happy I am to see everything so well thought out
Secondly, my argument:
The demons aren't staying in Hell, though- they're trying to make (quote) "Sanctuary a permanent outpost of Hell." Just look at the ending Act II cinematic.
The demons were encroaching on the Roque Encampment, Lut Gholein, Kurast, and Harrogath (Harrogath being the most obvious- it was beseiged.) The Pandemonium Fortress is probably the only exception.
So, the humans were protecting themselves from annihilation.
Edit--
And now that I think of it, the Pandemonium Fortress was established by Heaven, so it does not qualify as an encroachment by humans in to Hell.
There is no such thing as Good or Evil, but thinking makes it so.
~Shakespeare
Forget about demons, angels, religions or your ancestors, you're the only one who can find what's really good or evil in this world, but you mustn't forget that their are no wrong answers may it be yours or someone else's.
Quote from name="Death Sinner" »
And to add more support to this claim, i say is it not the humans thats keep advanceing further and further into the demon world? the Demons ( that reside in hell/baals domian ) are happily staying in hell.. so why must we keep purseing the demons after we have "Protected" our "Territory"?
If running for too long after demons is bad and you don't want to do something evil then stop being greedy and simply don't do it. Except if you got strings attached to your back, then by all means go you faithful.
Quote from "Magistrate" »
First I'd like to say how wonderful it is that this is an intelligent argument so far and how happy I am to see everything so well thought out
Secondly, my argument:
The demons aren't staying in Hell, though- they're trying to make (quote) "Sanctuary a permanent outpost of Hell." Just look at the ending Act II cinematic.
The demons were encroaching on the Roque Encampment, Lut Gholein, Kurast, and Harrogath (Harrogath being the most obvious- it was beseiged.) The Pandemonium Fortress is probably the only exception.
So, the humans were protecting themselves from annihilation.
Edit--
And now that I think of it, the Pandemonium Fortress was established by Heaven, so it does not qualify as an encroachment by humans in to Hell.
The ultimate goal of all demons is to destroyed all that is so that nothing will be, they are aiming at a future devoid of life or even anything.
The ultimate goal of all angels is preserve things as they are, so that in the end nothing will never happen again.
In my book their both evil, after all we live in a very chaotic universe.
(Except that the humans are just trying to stay alive and the demons are invading Sanctuary, the world of humans, to conquer it, and that humans are not venturing in to Hell to conquer it, but to kill Diablo, who is trying to accomplish the former. Mind you Diablo is not even the ruler of Hell- Belial is.)
Well i know i have.. What if the angels are just trying to keep the human race back from realizeing certain things.. What if they are keeping secrets from us to make us think that "Hell" is a place of great evil, What if they are keeping secrets from us to make us think that "Demons" are "Bad"..
If you feel anything on this subject anything at all please don't heisatate to post :thumbsup:
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
basically most peoples description of good comes from holy. and holy somewhat comes from god. (i hate using a christian idea for this but its really the only way) mainly a bunch of people who put the bible together said that christianity is the good. well that was there opinion. how do we know that its bad???
lol just the other day i was thinking of what if hell was actually the word for heaven. and vice versa.
its good to see a few ppl that actually agree with me lol.. and yes thats a very good point man how are we to actually know.. good point man i hope to hear more
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
-Obalobex
Good point man.. and thats exactly what im looking for in this thread.. is peoples opinions on this subject lol.. i just want to know what people think lol >.> :thumbsup:
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I lol'd when I read this. Just wanted you to know^_^
And if you think about it, on the religious level, you can't consider one Christian to be good and the others bad, or one bad and the others good (referring to a single religion, and more specifically a single denomination within that religion), because all people within the same religion (and/or denomination) would follow the same principles, and would also have to be evil. That same principle can apply to any religion. It's an all-or-nothing-type deal. Not that anyone raised this topic, but I thought it was an interesting thought.
Andulien had a very good point, too. Good and bad hasn't always and isn't always based on morals- it can be based on strength.
And, swaying away from the moral issue at question here, other trends that are good or bad can be interesting to look at, too. I mean, during the Baroque era of music, a lady or gentleman being obese was considered "fashionably good/ sexually good/attractive" because it signified the person's wealth. Now we know better, and it's the opposite. Or at least I think we know better... I hope so... ?
And I didn't choose either in the poll because 1) it's public and anyone can see who answered what, which could be bad if people decide to start hounding people (yes, it happens) and 2) I haven't really made a decision on the topic yet for myself.
This is kind of a random place for this thread, though. Why didn't you just put it in the off-topic section so that more people would view/reply to it?
Ah, and if anyone was wondering, the reason I used the baroque music era as a reference is because I couldn't think of the actual date-type thing for the time frame I was thinking of. I'm probably wrong, though I do remember reading, though, that at some point that was a fact.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this will make sense, but eh.
If you accept everything as good in essence (which I don't think is the issue at debate here, but I still want to add this), then you have no morals or standards (besides everything being good in nature), and thus cannot say someone is wrong for doing anything, and must say that they're right for anything they do. Therefore, if you take that position, you cannot say someone is wrong for saying that there is absolute good and absolute evil, and would be forced to say that they're right (along with everyone else.) But then, if they're right, you're wrong. And if you're wrong, there's absolute good and evil. And if they're right, then everything else must be wrong in reference to good and evil besides their point of view. Erm... I think I'm confusing myself...
Now that I think of it, I was blurring the distinction between "right" and "good". Right means correct in relation to any standard. Good is only correct in relation to moral values... I think?
Head... hurting... agh!
I'm sorry i didn't put this into the "Off topic" portion im just starting back up on this so i gotta relearn a bunch of stuff >.>..
i myself do believe in a "Good" and "Evil concept but im not to sure on which is which sometimes.. im going to go back to the D2 theme here.. how are we suppose 2 truly know that the so called "Demons" aren't actually trying to liberate the humans from some kind of hold that the angels could have on them? I'll stop at that because i can't think of much else right now >.> lol
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
hahaha!! thats good stuff man.. but ya thats kinda what im getting at but the topic it kind of got onto was good as well lol.. man i laughed at that xD.. i wonder if D was just having tea though >.> :thumbsup:
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
whats your point here man? lol go into detail?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I think it's wrong to diminish human life. Period. Why? Well, if you're an evolutionist, you're denying the fact that every species is striving to become the dominate species. If we kill ourselves, how the hell are we going to stay the dominate species? If your a Christian, well, it's a law (with the exception of war to counter unchristian rule or laws, but that isn't what the thread is about .) If you're the average no-nonsense guy that doesn't get in to this stuff, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like killing someone, unless you're some kind of psychopath. It's just natural, really. You don't just kill people unless you're a psycho.
So, because of the preceding paragraph, I believe this: The Prime Evils and all of demonkind is evil because they pose a direct and/or indirect threat to the growth and perseverance of humankind.
Now, here's the tricky part: Is it good to kill a living thing that is killing humans?
Now, generally I value human life over that of animals ( note that I said "life" and not "comfort", which should never be confused.) However, demons seem to be both animal-like (in that they are mostly based on instinct, not rational thought) and also can maintain a "thinking" mind, which would be characteristic of a human, and not an animal (there is a little debate here, but generally, this holds true.) So, I cannot put all demons in the same category as animals, and thus could not be justified in my mind with killing them to prevent the deaths of fellow humans.
So from here I would stem to: Is it good to kill another human that is killing other humans?
My answer here is yes.
My reasoning is this: One death is better than more than one death carried-out by the one doing the primary killing.
The primary killer is the human killing other humans, and the secondary killer is the killer of the primary killer. So, the secondary killer would be acting as a sort of anti-virus to the primary killer- by killing the primary killer the secondary killer is preventing the spread of death on a larger scale than that of simply killing the primary killer.
So, with all of that reasoning behind my thoughts, I conclude that it is good to kill demons, which kill others of my species, a lot of times just out of bloodlust.
It's simple, good and evil are feelings perceived from a specific frame of reference or if you prefer from a specific person, so the notions of good and evil are different from one subject to another. Angels can be seen as good protectors from one point of view, but they could also be seen as an oppressive source of authority from another (if you read the Sin War think about Inarius). Same goes for demons and other humans.
It's all relative.
wow very well thought out man.. you both have great detail to support your story.. and i must agree with you here.. thats a great example with the "Lion" trying to protect his territory from the invadeing "Humans"..
And to add more support to this claim, i say is it not the humans thats keep advanceing further and further into the demon world? the Demons ( that reside in hell/baals domian ) are happily staying in hell.. so why must we keep purseing the demons after we have "Protected" our "Territory"?
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Secondly, my argument:
The demons aren't staying in Hell, though- they're trying to make (quote) "Sanctuary a permanent outpost of Hell." Just look at the ending Act II cinematic.
The demons were encroaching on the Roque Encampment, Lut Gholein, Kurast, and Harrogath (Harrogath being the most obvious- it was beseiged.) The Pandemonium Fortress is probably the only exception.
So, the humans were protecting themselves from annihilation.
Edit--
And now that I think of it, the Pandemonium Fortress was established by Heaven, so it does not qualify as an encroachment by humans in to Hell.
Forget about demons, angels, religions or your ancestors, you're the only one who can find what's really good or evil in this world, but you mustn't forget that their are no wrong answers may it be yours or someone else's.
If running for too long after demons is bad and you don't want to do something evil then stop being greedy and simply don't do it. Except if you got strings attached to your back, then by all means go you faithful.
The ultimate goal of all demons is to destroyed all that is so that nothing will be, they are aiming at a future devoid of life or even anything.
The ultimate goal of all angels is preserve things as they are, so that in the end nothing will never happen again.
In my book their both evil, after all we live in a very chaotic universe.