Jerks -nerds or not- have always been in video games. especially online ones because of anonymity. I do agree that it is more prevalent now, but online gaming is also more popular.
Typically that kind of behavior only shows up in competitive games though. A prime example of this is in the fps, DoTA or LoL community.
Jerks exist anywhere and everywhere, the target group doesn't change that
I totally agree with you, but am I wrong in thinking that online communities are more hostile today because it's now socially acceptable for anyone to play videogames?
I probably shouldn't have specified "jocks" because they should not be associated with jerks and bullies. It was a generalization on my part from my personal experiences.
Early quote but heh.
You're totally right. I played a free to play MMO back around 2002. There was open world PvP and you dropped gear. You could steal from people trading because they had to drop stuff on the ground.
Yet I've never had a more engaging MMO experience with RP-ing folks and respecting people. Were there jerks, sure, a few of them.
But compared to today? Hah. The MMO communities of today have absolutely -nothing- in common with the old days.
Kids and immaturity has invaded the internet over the years and now... well... you have this. I'm not blaming kids here, there are pleasant and respectful kids to play with. But nerdy kids was all we had back then and they were more respectful. Now, bullies, assholes and all their neighbor think its all "cool". Not good.
I'm talking about MMOs but its quite similar in a lot of other games, though MMOs were hit the worst.
I think it's more just that people in general have become more hostile, than just video games being more casual and therefore inviting rude people into them.
The things kids say nowadays would certainly get you a beating if you said them when I was a kid.
Thats ridiculously true. And we're only in our very early 20.
Take me back 10 years. That little school had bullies sure, and we're in a very remote place, not in a big city. It was NOTHING like it is today.
Jesus christ the way girls are dressed at 10, and the things you can hear coming from those mouths, especially the boys...
I'm ashamed, frankly. I'd be genuinely scared to have children and send them there. What is happening to the children, I ask you.
But then there are parents retarded enough to put a computer with internet in the room of a 10 year old child.
Sometimes I just hope its me growing up and noticing these things, and that they didn't just get worse. Sadly, my mother agrees with me. Things -are- getting worse...
There have always been jerks online, but it seems like the internet has gotten more abrasive as it goes on. But I think that's because the maturity level of the latest generation just seems kind of off to me. I look at kids these days and try to decide if I was like that when I was a kid. Pretty sure I wasn't. But part of it too might just be looking back on it with nostalgia like your first car. It was a piece of crap, but when you think back on it, all you remember is the good things.
I also find it interesting that you say games have gotten less cooperative and more competitive. I find there are more games these days with co-op options than there were when I first started gaming. Although to be fair that was on arcade machines which are inherently competitive.
Being lazy isn't the same as being casual, being lazy is the same as being bad, and it's hard to be nice or kind to bads, because in truth bads are being rude to everyone they run into by expecting everyone to carry them.
I don't really agree with this attitude at all. Maybe the person just doesn't know where to look up the information or even know they're doing anything wrong. Not everyone plays games at the same skill level. It's very easy to lose patience with people, I understand. But it's just as easy to offer them help. If they don't want it or act rude for being offered help then that's the point I give up on them.
I think communities have become increasingly less patient. And I have to say it's definitely the theme-park style MMO that has taken over lately that has caused this. WoW being the main culprit. Instant Queue's for PVP and PVE content (well...a bit of a wait for DPS) has made it far too easy to just throw a tantrum when things aren't going as planned and drop group for another one 30 seconds later. Building up your reputation and infamy on a server is gone. No one knows anyone basically. Server rivalry is gone other than "realm 1st."
Before cross-server PVP, I knew everyone I was fighting just about. It was sweet revenge when I killed the rogue that always camped me on the Theramore Docks. I knew the people I was fighting with and we had great tactics to win our battlegrounds. We had a queue formed for who was next in line to boost up to Grand Marshall.
Once LFG and PVP queue's came in, all of that was destroyed for convenience and instant satisfaction. I'll agree I was one of the people that enjoyed it at the beginning. But if I had known the game would never be the same after that point I would have just dropped my subscription then and there.
Of course... since WoW is so successful, everyone else tries to copy the same theme-park style. Which is pretty much an instant "no thanks" from me lately. D3 is different because I have a group of 3 friends we'll be clearing the game together with. And for my alts I can try to play with folks from the site here.
TL;DR I agree with OP. The community has changed for the worse.
OP, I totally feel you. While jerks do indeed exist everywhere, it seems to be getting really out of hand lately in some games. Although I guess that's just totally related to the increased number of gamers overall.
There were plenty of jerks in the "nerd" communities, since... well forever.
Don't let nostalgia get in the way of reality. If you never encountered a nerd jerk, you probably didn't have a have a very fulfilling life as a gamer.
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Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
There were plenty of jerks in the "nerd" communities, since... well forever.
Don't let nostalgia get in the way of reality. If you never encountered a nerd jerk, you probably didn't have a have a very fulfilling life as a gamer.
As a past "jock" type who never hurt a fly I can definitely agree with this...lol. Then again, I was a female jock, and have been ridiculed most of my young life for supposedly being a lesbian or having man-hands or whatever unoriginal crap the pretty girls came up with that day so maybe I have a different attitude than the typical male jock. I have never been about swinging my dick (if you will) in others' faces, in game or out.
Honestly, I think part of the online community issues have some root in the new generation of what I like to call the "uber-nerds", who feel online gaming is solely their domain. I'm not sure where this ridiculous sense of entitlement came from, but it's all over WoW, especially for those who play on RP servers. I swear, the first time I make mention of my fantasy football team or the Detroit Tigers or UFC, some people get pissy and feel that I'm gloating. No, I just like to be able to carry on a conversation that doesn't entirely revolve around the game I'm currently playing!!! Considering I used to be one of those people who could play WoW 40+ hours a week, it was nice to discuss something else on occasion. But if it ever strayed outside typical nerdy conversation, I was suddenly snooty or even unlikable.
Lets face it, it's not cool to be normal (whatever that means) anymore. Everyone has to be one extreme or the other, and those of us who dwell in the middle get "the treatment" just like everyone else. It's part of the reason I have withdrawn from MMO's almost entirely. There are good people out there, whether they are nerds or jocks or somewhere in between, I just lack the patience to sort through all the muck to find those good people anymore.
I think hostility in video games has nothing to do with an expanding audience, and everything to do with internet culture as a whole. Trolling is a very easily accessible form of bullying, and sadly bullying is a standard byproduct of modern culture.
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I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
I honestly don't care when people rage and flame in games (Hon, Lol, Dota, WoW) because i know im always pulling my own weight in those games, WHILE im having fun. If someone feels like raging and blaming me for being the cause of a loss, i ignore it (almost) completely. My point is, i dont understand why so many people feel so hurt / take things so personally in a GAME. No matter WHAT people write, just ignore it?
I'm with you, I just ignore it. I think the main point of the post however is that once upon a time, a not so very long time ago, you just didn't see it/have to deal with it half as much as you do now. And then the discussion of why/when/how it changed and if it's really changed all that much.
I posted earlier in the thread that I do agree that things have definitely changed for the worse. Someone mentioned internet culture contributing to this kind of bullying which I agree with. The nameless-ness and faceless-ness of it all empowers all kids/teen/adults. The internet and online gaming acts as a medium for cathartic release of pent up frustrations. After all it's really easy to be an asshole to someone when there is no possible negative repercussions like meeting you at the bike racks after school or de-pantsing you in PE class or keying your car. It gives people new levels to compete with one another and offers a different arena where it doesn't matter how old or smart or athletic you are, and lets face it, no one cheers for the nice guy...
Back in my WoW times I did some pvp from time to time. I was not really good at it ( I sucked ) there are times where i would get squished but I came back because I was having fun. A friend of mine who I will be playing D3 with ( we use to play WoW together) will be my follower for D3. He said "we may die... a lot... no like a lot" because of us having fun. pulling big group we cant do. pull a boss because " it seemed like a good idea at the time." Just having fun with it.
Agree with the OP. What did go wrong? There are probably a lot of reasons, but I see 3 important ones.
- I'm "only" in my early 30's, going to sound like an old fart but let's face it, there is definitely something wrong with the teenagers these days. I know it's a clichee, I know this is exactly what every generations is saying about the next one, since the ancient greece actually! (Platon, if i remember right, is talking about it lol) but I don't think i'm wrong when I say there is something wrong with the "kids these days..".
- WoW. Before WoW the online gaming scene was mostly a nerd-only thing. I loved the scenes of both L2 and FFXI early days. Very demanding mmorpgs that were NOT forgiving if you couldn't play well with other. You HAD to be able to socialize. Also communities were made of older geeks. Lots of geeks in their 20's, working/studying computers. No 14 year olds brats. Blizzard realized a shitload of money could be made with mmorpgs as long as you make it a bigger gaming niche. Therefore making it accessible to much younger people, and not only the good old geeks. And this is when shit hits the fan because Blizzard showed all mmorpgs editors what was the way to go down to make a LOT more money. Ever since, all the mmorpgs released in the west was aiming at the largest possible audience, hence all the kiddos..
- The internet in general. Not only WoW is to blame. Once uppon a time, 15-20 years ago, the interwebz was pretty much a geek only area. And then, surely it became mainstream, attracting not only the usually well behaving, smart and educated nerd but everyone and their mothers.. Its like someone above me said, the "troll generation", 4chan etc..
tl;dr: I hate WoW, it was better before because nerds are "better people", dumb people/douches should be kept away from the interwebz and i'm an old fart that thinks there is something wrong with the kids the days!
I think hostility in video games has nothing to do with an expanding audience, and everything to do with internet culture as a whole. Trolling is a very easily accessible form of bullying, and sadly bullying is a standard byproduct of modern culture.
That's all it is, it is not an age thing. There are plenty of 'older' people that are complete scumbags as well. Myself I am 30, still have fun playing WoW and many other games, I just play with friends and avoid many of the more social aspects of the game(s). Anonymity makes people behave like angry spoiled children. Now don't get me wrong, occasionally I'll play a game where a group of us (Read: Whole team) do immature things (Within the game world) to have fun, just generally play the game the wrong way (Random grenades, trick shots, etc) but I don't ever go in trying to ruin another persons enjoyment of said game.
Having more people playing games has made them better, whether you believe it or not. Developers have more money and man-power to bring new ideas into their games. The problem is the assholes are just louder than the good guys.
When I was a child I played many online games (SWG PreCU was my favorite)
Lol, this struck me as hilarious. I thought this was going to be a post from an old timer like me thats been playing MMOs since before The Realm online in 1995, but it's from a relative newbie to online gaming.
Let me clue you in. From the days of MUDS, The Realm Online, and Ultima Online, there have ALWAYS been tools in online games, and there always will be.
I can remember spending hours in Ultima Online being griefed by morons at the bank trying to PK me for my bank vault, or a group of thugs corpse camping me and trying to extort gold in order to recover my body.
The simple fact is that people are people regardless of the medium you encounter them in.
As the years have passed and videogames have become a more casual thing
Actually, you're wrong.
Video games have been permeated by the same nasty pool of hardcore gamers. THEY are the jerks (not that a casual can't be a jerk, but casuals are usually stuck in Bronze league and Normal mode).
When games first came out, they were played by normals. People who got excited by games and played for fun. And they could get good at them, too. Then they got taken over by elitist jerks who play 24/7, read guides, cookie cutter builds, exploit the game, and beat up anyone who doesn't play like them. They consider you an idiot if you don't know how to play the game according to a ruleset or if you do not rush like mad. I would never encounter such an attitude from a casual because a casual is busy figuring out the game for themselves.
Don't beat up on the casuals. They're largely invisible. But the casuals and hardcores are basically squishing out the normal player because taking stuff in moderation has always been kinda rare.
Maybe it's because games are more competitive than cooperative today.
This is closer to the truth. And especially with the rise of multiplayer over single player you get a bigger pool and with bigger pools you have more thrash. Particularly MMORPG's suffer from this because they're so multiplayer-oriented. And that's why I don't really see the appeal of DII multiplayer and never did.
Games stopped being for fun, they started being for e-peen growth. This exact thing happened to sports long, long, long ago. Sports used to be for exercise and fun, people made it into paid entertainment.
You can see it all over this forum, all this talk about world firsts, about how "only hardcore players should get gear", about PK. Back in "my" day you'd never even hear about such stupidity as freaking neglecting food, job, school, SO, exercise, etc., for a game. Game was something you did for fun. Yeah, you could play for 3 hours straight and be excited about it. But you don't play 48 hours straight and sit on hot pockets. Something is wrong with that. Something is wrong with world firsts. And I don't care how judgmental that makes me sound. You people need to get off from wherever you are and get back to the ground. And don't tell me you're special because you're kinda everywhere.
I think you'll find better communities on HC, because yet again people are kinda doing something else over there. It does have its own share of "it's not hardcore without Hostile!" idiots, but overall I found HC communities superior to SC communities across the board. That's where I'll be.
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Typically that kind of behavior only shows up in competitive games though. A prime example of this is in the fps, DoTA or LoL community.
You're totally right. I played a free to play MMO back around 2002. There was open world PvP and you dropped gear. You could steal from people trading because they had to drop stuff on the ground.
Yet I've never had a more engaging MMO experience with RP-ing folks and respecting people. Were there jerks, sure, a few of them.
But compared to today? Hah. The MMO communities of today have absolutely -nothing- in common with the old days.
Kids and immaturity has invaded the internet over the years and now... well... you have this. I'm not blaming kids here, there are pleasant and respectful kids to play with. But nerdy kids was all we had back then and they were more respectful. Now, bullies, assholes and all their neighbor think its all "cool". Not good.
I'm talking about MMOs but its quite similar in a lot of other games, though MMOs were hit the worst.
Thats ridiculously true. And we're only in our very early 20.
Take me back 10 years. That little school had bullies sure, and we're in a very remote place, not in a big city. It was NOTHING like it is today.
Jesus christ the way girls are dressed at 10, and the things you can hear coming from those mouths, especially the boys...
I'm ashamed, frankly. I'd be genuinely scared to have children and send them there. What is happening to the children, I ask you.
But then there are parents retarded enough to put a computer with internet in the room of a 10 year old child.
Sometimes I just hope its me growing up and noticing these things, and that they didn't just get worse. Sadly, my mother agrees with me. Things -are- getting worse...
I also find it interesting that you say games have gotten less cooperative and more competitive. I find there are more games these days with co-op options than there were when I first started gaming. Although to be fair that was on arcade machines which are inherently competitive.
Jerks and 'nerds' are not mutually exclusive. This isn't an american high school movie.
I think it's a great thing that games are more socially acceptable. (definitely helps with girlfriends!)
The morals of society are going down the toilet. Not really anything to do specifically with computer games.
I don't really agree with this attitude at all. Maybe the person just doesn't know where to look up the information or even know they're doing anything wrong. Not everyone plays games at the same skill level. It's very easy to lose patience with people, I understand. But it's just as easy to offer them help. If they don't want it or act rude for being offered help then that's the point I give up on them.
I think communities have become increasingly less patient. And I have to say it's definitely the theme-park style MMO that has taken over lately that has caused this. WoW being the main culprit. Instant Queue's for PVP and PVE content (well...a bit of a wait for DPS) has made it far too easy to just throw a tantrum when things aren't going as planned and drop group for another one 30 seconds later. Building up your reputation and infamy on a server is gone. No one knows anyone basically. Server rivalry is gone other than "realm 1st."
Before cross-server PVP, I knew everyone I was fighting just about. It was sweet revenge when I killed the rogue that always camped me on the Theramore Docks. I knew the people I was fighting with and we had great tactics to win our battlegrounds. We had a queue formed for who was next in line to boost up to Grand Marshall.
Once LFG and PVP queue's came in, all of that was destroyed for convenience and instant satisfaction. I'll agree I was one of the people that enjoyed it at the beginning. But if I had known the game would never be the same after that point I would have just dropped my subscription then and there.
Of course... since WoW is so successful, everyone else tries to copy the same theme-park style. Which is pretty much an instant "no thanks" from me lately. D3 is different because I have a group of 3 friends we'll be clearing the game together with. And for my alts I can try to play with folks from the site here.
TL;DR I agree with OP. The community has changed for the worse.
Also, first post ever here....huzzah!!
Don't let nostalgia get in the way of reality. If you never encountered a nerd jerk, you probably didn't have a have a very fulfilling life as a gamer.
As a past "jock" type who never hurt a fly I can definitely agree with this...lol. Then again, I was a female jock, and have been ridiculed most of my young life for supposedly being a lesbian or having man-hands or whatever unoriginal crap the pretty girls came up with that day so maybe I have a different attitude than the typical male jock. I have never been about swinging my dick (if you will) in others' faces, in game or out.
Honestly, I think part of the online community issues have some root in the new generation of what I like to call the "uber-nerds", who feel online gaming is solely their domain. I'm not sure where this ridiculous sense of entitlement came from, but it's all over WoW, especially for those who play on RP servers. I swear, the first time I make mention of my fantasy football team or the Detroit Tigers or UFC, some people get pissy and feel that I'm gloating. No, I just like to be able to carry on a conversation that doesn't entirely revolve around the game I'm currently playing!!! Considering I used to be one of those people who could play WoW 40+ hours a week, it was nice to discuss something else on occasion. But if it ever strayed outside typical nerdy conversation, I was suddenly snooty or even unlikable.
Lets face it, it's not cool to be normal (whatever that means) anymore. Everyone has to be one extreme or the other, and those of us who dwell in the middle get "the treatment" just like everyone else. It's part of the reason I have withdrawn from MMO's almost entirely. There are good people out there, whether they are nerds or jocks or somewhere in between, I just lack the patience to sort through all the muck to find those good people anymore.
I'm with you, I just ignore it. I think the main point of the post however is that once upon a time, a not so very long time ago, you just didn't see it/have to deal with it half as much as you do now. And then the discussion of why/when/how it changed and if it's really changed all that much.
I posted earlier in the thread that I do agree that things have definitely changed for the worse. Someone mentioned internet culture contributing to this kind of bullying which I agree with. The nameless-ness and faceless-ness of it all empowers all kids/teen/adults. The internet and online gaming acts as a medium for cathartic release of pent up frustrations. After all it's really easy to be an asshole to someone when there is no possible negative repercussions like meeting you at the bike racks after school or de-pantsing you in PE class or keying your car. It gives people new levels to compete with one another and offers a different arena where it doesn't matter how old or smart or athletic you are, and lets face it, no one cheers for the nice guy...
- I'm "only" in my early 30's, going to sound like an old fart but let's face it, there is definitely something wrong with the teenagers these days. I know it's a clichee, I know this is exactly what every generations is saying about the next one, since the ancient greece actually! (Platon, if i remember right, is talking about it lol) but I don't think i'm wrong when I say there is something wrong with the "kids these days..".
- WoW. Before WoW the online gaming scene was mostly a nerd-only thing. I loved the scenes of both L2 and FFXI early days. Very demanding mmorpgs that were NOT forgiving if you couldn't play well with other. You HAD to be able to socialize. Also communities were made of older geeks. Lots of geeks in their 20's, working/studying computers. No 14 year olds brats. Blizzard realized a shitload of money could be made with mmorpgs as long as you make it a bigger gaming niche. Therefore making it accessible to much younger people, and not only the good old geeks. And this is when shit hits the fan because Blizzard showed all mmorpgs editors what was the way to go down to make a LOT more money. Ever since, all the mmorpgs released in the west was aiming at the largest possible audience, hence all the kiddos..
- The internet in general. Not only WoW is to blame. Once uppon a time, 15-20 years ago, the interwebz was pretty much a geek only area. And then, surely it became mainstream, attracting not only the usually well behaving, smart and educated nerd but everyone and their mothers.. Its like someone above me said, the "troll generation", 4chan etc..
tl;dr: I hate WoW, it was better before because nerds are "better people", dumb people/douches should be kept away from the interwebz and i'm an old fart that thinks there is something wrong with the kids the days!
Having more people playing games has made them better, whether you believe it or not. Developers have more money and man-power to bring new ideas into their games. The problem is the assholes are just louder than the good guys.
Lol, this struck me as hilarious. I thought this was going to be a post from an old timer like me thats been playing MMOs since before The Realm online in 1995, but it's from a relative newbie to online gaming.
Let me clue you in. From the days of MUDS, The Realm Online, and Ultima Online, there have ALWAYS been tools in online games, and there always will be.
I can remember spending hours in Ultima Online being griefed by morons at the bank trying to PK me for my bank vault, or a group of thugs corpse camping me and trying to extort gold in order to recover my body.
The simple fact is that people are people regardless of the medium you encounter them in.
Video games have been permeated by the same nasty pool of hardcore gamers. THEY are the jerks (not that a casual can't be a jerk, but casuals are usually stuck in Bronze league and Normal mode).
When games first came out, they were played by normals. People who got excited by games and played for fun. And they could get good at them, too. Then they got taken over by elitist jerks who play 24/7, read guides, cookie cutter builds, exploit the game, and beat up anyone who doesn't play like them. They consider you an idiot if you don't know how to play the game according to a ruleset or if you do not rush like mad. I would never encounter such an attitude from a casual because a casual is busy figuring out the game for themselves.
Don't beat up on the casuals. They're largely invisible. But the casuals and hardcores are basically squishing out the normal player because taking stuff in moderation has always been kinda rare.
This is closer to the truth. And especially with the rise of multiplayer over single player you get a bigger pool and with bigger pools you have more thrash. Particularly MMORPG's suffer from this because they're so multiplayer-oriented. And that's why I don't really see the appeal of DII multiplayer and never did.
Games stopped being for fun, they started being for e-peen growth. This exact thing happened to sports long, long, long ago. Sports used to be for exercise and fun, people made it into paid entertainment.
You can see it all over this forum, all this talk about world firsts, about how "only hardcore players should get gear", about PK. Back in "my" day you'd never even hear about such stupidity as freaking neglecting food, job, school, SO, exercise, etc., for a game. Game was something you did for fun. Yeah, you could play for 3 hours straight and be excited about it. But you don't play 48 hours straight and sit on hot pockets. Something is wrong with that. Something is wrong with world firsts. And I don't care how judgmental that makes me sound. You people need to get off from wherever you are and get back to the ground. And don't tell me you're special because you're kinda everywhere.
I think you'll find better communities on HC, because yet again people are kinda doing something else over there. It does have its own share of "it's not hardcore without Hostile!" idiots, but overall I found HC communities superior to SC communities across the board. That's where I'll be.