I don't see why this has to be a court case between PvP'ers and PvM'ers, especially since Diablo is a PvE-centric game. If you haven't accepted that it's a PvE game, good luck to you.
No game in history without PvP in its release has ever become an E-Sport, period.
Thats not really true tho... just look at WoW as it was designed for PvE and did not have any PvP support when it was released, look what happend.
IDK apparently, according to some posters here. You would NEVER want to do both of those things at once, hell even according to Blizzard.
I agree with you 100% though.
Due to the design of the game, you shouldn't ever do both at once... nope. Its the way the game is designed and it plays out very well so far.
Well good that you think it plays out very well so far. Me and the other guy and a few others feel it played out pretty well in Diablo1-2.
Opinions are great eh?
Well good that you think it plays out very well so far. Me and the other guy and a few others feel it played out pretty well in Diablo1-2.
Opinions are great eh?
Diablo 1-2 did work alright for its time. Unfortunately that was 12~ years ago. Games and gaming has evolved, you obviously have not evolved with it. Honestly, I'm quite confident that the average player wouldn't want to play with you at all... so I think Blizzard is doing the right thing reducing the incentives for more gamers like yourself. ^-^
Long time player first time poster ... years of D2 and WoW. Didn't actually play any competitive PvP into any of them, it's not my style i just PvE/PvM. I do understand some of u just want to PvP and support you untill a specific point: the point where PvP interracts with PvM directly or indirectly.
Directly via assholes griefers that joined random publics to PK just because they can do so, just because they had faster reactions or skills than the average joe and had to show off theyr epeen somehow. I really am happy that Blizz decided to take out Hostility.
Indirectly trough nerfs/buffs/whine/whatever. Arena ... it will happen and of course there will be players who consider a class OP compared to other. 3v3 and that barbarian keeps leaping/stuning/chasing your wizard ass and when he reaches u he 1-2 shot kills u .... "OMG Blizz NERF baba !!!!" And since Blizz made a bad habbit out of listening to players demands, it will happen [yes, it`s a bad habbit i`ve seen enough of it in WoW, and i played that game since vanilla] and barbarian gets longer CDs, lower dmg etc. This is when your PvP affects my PvM ... hell, i want barbarian to be OP if needed compared to other classes because i need him to bash on monsters and i`m sure the AI will not whine/complain about that. I don`t know how well ballanced or not was D2, really don`t care if an amazon could take out 3 druids or w/e, the game was made as no-brainer, a pure hack&slash... you pick up a sword and start banging on the enemy monsters. Let it be this way ... you want to PvP then do it like u did back then.
I am all on for PvP'ers and theyr need to prove themselves to ... something. If it makes u happy i hope Blizz gives you ladder, rankings or specific tittles or even make your character glow pink for that matter. As long as it does not affect PvM in any way then ... whatever floats your boats fellow PvPers.
And for the asshole "PvP player" who joined games and "i`m gonna wtfpwn you noob, just because you are a noob and don`t deserve to live" i really am feeding on your tears and whines now [there's a few of them on these forums]. I feel proud of Blizz that took away your "my virtual dick is bigger" toy.
Haha you are in for a surprise. They didn't take away the "my virtual dick is bigger" toy at all. They might of took some steam off of it but it will always be in any online game.
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
Haha you are in for a surprise. They didn't take away the "my virtual dick is bigger" toy at all. They might of took some steam off of it but it will always be in any online game.
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
Nerfing happened many times in D2, so you're wrong. Nerfing has already happened in D3. Its called game balance, it happens.
Haha you are in for a surprise. They didn't take away the "my virtual dick is bigger" toy at all. They might of took some steam off of it but it will always be in any online game.
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
Nerfing happened many times in D2, so you're wrong. Nerfing has already happened in D3. Its called game balance, it happens.
Really? Nerfing how? The 1.10 patch? Oh wow...1 patch, and was that because of PvP? How much nerfing came from PvP buddy? How many tears were shed from PvP nerfing buddy?
Haha you are in for a surprise. They didn't take away the "my virtual dick is bigger" toy at all. They might of took some steam off of it but it will always be in any online game.
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
Nerfing happened many times in D2, so you're wrong. Nerfing has already happened in D3. Its called game balance, it happens.
Long time player first time poster ... years of D2 and WoW. Didn't actually play any competitive PvP into any of them, it's not my style i just PvE/PvM. I do understand some of u just want to PvP and support you untill a specific point: the point where PvP interracts with PvM directly or indirectly.
Directly via assholes griefers that joined random publics to PK just because they can do so, just because they had faster reactions or skills than the average joe and had to show off theyr epeen somehow. I really am happy that Blizz decided to take out Hostility.
Indirectly trough nerfs/buffs/whine/whatever. Arena ... it will happen and of course there will be players who consider a class OP compared to other. 3v3 and that barbarian keeps leaping/stuning/chasing your wizard ass and when he reaches u he 1-2 shot kills u .... "OMG Blizz NERF baba !!!!" And since Blizz made a bad habbit out of listening to players demands, it will happen [yes, it`s a bad habbit i`ve seen enough of it in WoW, and i played that game since vanilla] and barbarian gets longer CDs, lower dmg etc. This is when your PvP affects my PvM ... hell, i want barbarian to be OP if needed compared to other classes because i need him to bash on monsters and i`m sure the AI will not whine/complain about that. I don`t know how well ballanced or not was D2, really don`t care if an amazon could take out 3 druids or w/e, the game was made as no-brainer, a pure hack&slash... you pick up a sword and start banging on the enemy monsters. Let it be this way ... you want to PvP then do it like u did back then.
I am all on for PvP'ers and theyr need to prove themselves to ... something. If it makes u happy i hope Blizz gives you ladder, rankings or specific tittles or even make your character glow pink for that matter. As long as it does not affect PvM in any way then ... whatever floats your boats fellow PvPers.
And for the asshole "PvP player" who joined games and "i`m gonna wtfpwn you noob, just because you are a noob and don`t deserve to live" i really am feeding on your tears and whines now [there's a few of them on these forums]. I feel proud of Blizz that took away your "my virtual dick is bigger" toy.
Haha you are in for a surprise. They didn't take away the "my virtual dick is bigger" toy at all. They might of took some steam off of it but it will always be in any online game.
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
I was just expecting your reply ... u are the typical "PvP player" in my post. Nerfing will happen you are too ignorant to see that most of the WoW community is slowly crawling to D3. They whined and complained about WoW and PvP untill it has been reduced to what it is today. U think the new players community will understand what u describe as a chess match ? [btw in chess everyone has the same pieces both in strenght and numbers whereas rock-papper-scissors it doesn't ... you fail your own argument].... i`m expecting more tears
I guess there is no such thing as mind games like in chess. Ok, Diablo is like Street Fighter, or any good fighter at that. There are variables, and there are mind games, there is spacing, ect. I wouldn't expect you to understand any of this because I am sure you are one of those players who think gear is end all be all Diablo PvP and that is ok, they made a spot for you in D3 and that is great.
Don't have to worry about nerfs and buffs because Blizzard already said they don't care, and also I guess it really takes rocket science to code the skill to work differently in PvP to where if they ever did nerf or buff, it would have absolutely nothing to do with PvM. Damn..the salt, it tastes good.
If you are a "pro" PvP player and want you and your team to become a "star team" and win money then you need to win games. To be able to win games you need to be able to compete with your opponent. To be able to fight FAIR with your opponent you need rules and balance between the classes. If there is no balance we will start to see 3v3 Barb teams (for example). To prevent this we need to balance the game. If you balance the game if will have a huge effect on the PvE side of the game. As the Diablo series is known to be a PvE grinding game, then this is a big issue.
IF Blizzard can balance a PvP system without affecting the PvE aspect then there is no problem what so ever. But since there is no such thing in thier biggest game (WoW) then how can we expect this in Diablo 3?
I agree that casual duels and such should be implemented and specific hostile hosted games.
I don't play GW at a high level, but they seem to of balanced PvP and PvM completely separately. We arn't asking for esports, and if you are a "pro" PvP'er then you should be playing Fighting games or RTS. The community does a fine job of handling Diablo PvP and they haven't cried for buffs or nerfs yet so no point in starting now. Also in that case if it does happen, like I said GW does it, why can't Diablo?
All of you arguing about relative PvM vs PvP player numbers: Blizzard *knows* the numbers. They own the service, and can look at logs for any time period they want for how many dueled, how many ran X boss, etc.
If PvP (real PvP, not griefers forcing it on people who didn't want PvP) was as important to D2 as some of you think, Blizzard would have come up with a different plan than they have. Your importance to D3 is not nearly as high as you seem to think, with the plan Blizzard is using now.
Having said that, I'm fine with them adding the arenas for you, but I'm not in favor of hostility in the open world.. You can have a hostile area to play in, and I'm sure the PvP patch will have that.
Going back to D2's forced hostility model would mean the end of D3, imo.
All of you arguing about relative PvM vs PvP player numbers: Blizzard *knows* the numbers. They own the service, and can look at logs for any time period they want for how many dueled, how many ran X boss, etc.
If PvP (real PvP, not griefers forcing it on people who didn't want PvP) was as important to D2 as some of you think, Blizzard would have come up with a different plan than they have. Your importance to D3 is not nearly as high as you seem to think, with the plan Blizzard is using now.
Having said that, I'm fine with them adding the arenas for you, but I'm not in favor of hostility in the open world.. You can have a hostile area to play in, and I'm sure the PvP patch will have that.
Going back to D2's forced hostility model would mean the end of D3, imo.
Diablo 1-2 did work alright for its time. Unfortunately that was 12~ years ago. Games and gaming has evolved, you obviously have not evolved with it. Honestly, I'm quite confident that the average player wouldn't want to play with you at all... so I think Blizzard is doing the right thing reducing the incentives for more gamers like yourself. ^-^
What like starcraft2, WoW, and other Blizzard-released games in this time period you mention? Players like us exist in communities like this for the express reason that all the blizz games leading up to this point have had and grown the player vs player community. We are the minority without feeling like the minority, because we are the "hardcore" who want a challenge and we know blizzard's pvm game by now. Out gear the opponent, beat the script gimmick a couple of times and it's yours to faceroll in the future. Then what, farm gear for the sake of having better gear? That's cool but it gets old, and so we quit and go to a different game which has infinite replayability for our liking.
Anyone who has played the beta a lot, and quit or took serious time away because there was no point to continue playing for better itmes and there was nothing new to experience should understand what I'm talking about.
The sad thing is, *like in this topic, I have made (2) topics with ideas taken even from across the isle so that the "PvM Player"'s experience will be left alone and people started arguing about resources and even turned on their own ideas for sad reasons like "people are too stupid/greedy, they will just want more and then ruin other people's experience in the end" (more or less), and for the simple sake of arguing then start playing social f'cking politics acting like victims of verbal-hostility when they finally egg people on too far while being uncompromisable just wasting the time of people who are actually trying to get something accomplished in the only place on the forums where that type of talk belongs, in the PvP forums.
With that said this thread is different. This thread is going nowhere and had no chance even from the first post because of the topic title containing "vs". Upon reading the title people came into this thread, ignored the OP for the most part, and started geting angry and declaring what side they were on, seeking out like-minded player's attention. I think you have a lot of good points, but they are being ignored by most of the people posting here, as usual.
Also I'd gladly play with or against someone like adon or vlad. The only things that kept wow and d2 charming for me WAS the open world hostility environment. I'm not suggesting that happen in open public games for d3, but I was a part of that pvp community where the mentality is basically "what's up" not "my gear score is so high I killed a dragon". I'd like to note that I vaguely remember playing against them a decade ago in d2 when I was a lot more childish and quick to anger, and despite that and because of it I'd much rather play with them than someone who can't handle having their manhood questioned.
And to wrap it up let me say this. The public queue system creates assholes as bad as the griefers I hear about so often, they are basically closet-griefers. Why? Because there is no real consequence for skrewing around with people or not carrying your weight etc. What are they going to do, kick you out of a game if they notice you're not playing to their liking? There's nothing to stop people from being self-proclaimed elitist prick "bullies" either, or joining up with 2 friends and just griefing people out of games once the kick feature is added. Back when wow was a same-server community you had to be nice to people and earn people's respect. There were rivalries like nothing that exists today even in the arena over battlegrounds and territorial disputes and guilds. But what happened when they added cross server and later added pick up group queues cross server? The communities died and everyone became something of an asshat. You didn't need to be well liked, you just need to click a button and you're in. Your gear not good enough from a quick inspection, see ya later. Also the content got dumbed down enough, even the end game content, so that it was puggable by a group of completely random players. Back in vanilla and in TBC raiding was freaking hard, but carried soooooo much more gratification when you finally triumphed. That's gone now. The game is a joke in every aspect. You aren't being social by queuing into public quests, you're just looking for things to move around your screen like pets independent from you and hoping for a quick clear for exp and a bunch of convenient, easy to get loot (not too different from the queue system in wow nowadays). Are you seriously going to drop that epic chest piece you found to some complete random kid who's jerking off in the game? No, you're going to save it for someone worth your time or sell it yourself. With that said Diablo is not wow, but the fact remains that there is no real noteworthy consequence for being an ahole in d3 all the same, and I expect nothing more from the people playing in public games together. People ninja'd crap all the time in wow, and you could even roll on it and see every little thing that dropped. 999/1000 times people are going to keep anything of value they find themselves. If you were playing with actual friends however, it'd be a different story.
The few custamizable options that were suggested sounded extremely pleasent, I doubt blizzard will find it profitable to create them but it would be awsome indeed..
Blizzard already has the data and knows how important (or not) PvP was to D2. They've made D3's PvP accordingly. /thread.
there's no data telling what incentives a certain player had for doing a baal run... they've made D3's PvP based on what they think we'll be satisfied with and what's convenient for them.
Bingo. Yea there were ton of baal games, ton of leveling games, ton of trade games...to what end? To be better at PvM...not from my extensive experience.
I feel Diablo 3 is aimed more at PvM currently rather than PvP (not because PvP isnt being launched on release) and feel it will show a similar following like D2. On release of D2 PvP was almost nonexistent at the start as everyone was trying to level up and magic find items to try out different characters and builds. But once item's and runes began to circulate, D2 quickly moved to trading/character builds. After that the PvP community emerged in a storm, as almost an endless amount of builds were quickly tried and tested. There was a huge PvP community in D2 with each ladder season in its height of popularity. Granted there were still lots of people who played it only for PvM.
But alas, sadly Diablo 3 in my own opinion will revolve around PvP. PvM will be balanced around PvP. I hope to God I am wrong but I feel it will be just like WoW.
1. Class A becomes OP in PvP
2. People rage on forums because their class isnt FOTM
3. Everyone Rerolls to FOTM
4. Blizz finally puts a patch/hotfix out to address the skill/class
5. PvP FOTM class QQ about nerf in PvP
6. PvM'ers QQ about nerf to PvM
Its a vicious cycle. I mean hell for those of you who played WoW know. A perfect example of above was the most recent cata, Blood Death Knights with Vengeance stacking and Death strike. I knew how to kite/take off vengeance stacks to kill them easy, but a majority of "casuals" who didnt know would just complain on forums. Rogue mace stuns, Druid Shapeshifts, Warrior charges, Mortal Strike PreWrath, SL-SL Lock, Death strike, Frost Mages, the list goes on and on. This argument doesnt only apply to D3 it will always apply to any game that has a PVP/PVM component as long as the game creaters are updating there will always be changes to skills/mechanics to balance things out. Blizzard will always listen to the fans (although many will argue it doesnt seem like it). If there is enough public outcry for something, Blizzard will more than likely change/fix it to keep their fanbase happy otherwise it would be a marketing disaster for the franchise or any other future game franchises.
Again these are all my own opinion.
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Thats not really true tho... just look at WoW as it was designed for PvE and did not have any PvP support when it was released, look what happend.
I agree with you 100% though.
Due to the design of the game, you shouldn't ever do both at once... nope. Its the way the game is designed and it plays out very well so far.
Opinions are great eh?
Yup, whether they're right or wrong. They sure are great.
Diablo 1-2 did work alright for its time. Unfortunately that was 12~ years ago. Games and gaming has evolved, you obviously have not evolved with it. Honestly, I'm quite confident that the average player wouldn't want to play with you at all... so I think Blizzard is doing the right thing reducing the incentives for more gamers like yourself. ^-^
PvP'ers who do not come from WoW don't cry nerfs. Never have in D2 and won't in D3. It is a chess match and a rock paper scissor game, nerfing isn't required.
Nerfing happened many times in D2, so you're wrong. Nerfing has already happened in D3. Its called game balance, it happens.
Don't have to worry about nerfs and buffs because Blizzard already said they don't care, and also I guess it really takes rocket science to code the skill to work differently in PvP to where if they ever did nerf or buff, it would have absolutely nothing to do with PvM. Damn..the salt, it tastes good.
If PvP (real PvP, not griefers forcing it on people who didn't want PvP) was as important to D2 as some of you think, Blizzard would have come up with a different plan than they have. Your importance to D3 is not nearly as high as you seem to think, with the plan Blizzard is using now.
Having said that, I'm fine with them adding the arenas for you, but I'm not in favor of hostility in the open world.. You can have a hostile area to play in, and I'm sure the PvP patch will have that.
Going back to D2's forced hostility model would mean the end of D3, imo.
Nicely said, +1.
What like starcraft2, WoW, and other Blizzard-released games in this time period you mention? Players like us exist in communities like this for the express reason that all the blizz games leading up to this point have had and grown the player vs player community. We are the minority without feeling like the minority, because we are the "hardcore" who want a challenge and we know blizzard's pvm game by now. Out gear the opponent, beat the script gimmick a couple of times and it's yours to faceroll in the future. Then what, farm gear for the sake of having better gear? That's cool but it gets old, and so we quit and go to a different game which has infinite replayability for our liking.
Anyone who has played the beta a lot, and quit or took serious time away because there was no point to continue playing for better itmes and there was nothing new to experience should understand what I'm talking about.
The sad thing is, *like in this topic, I have made (2) topics with ideas taken even from across the isle so that the "PvM Player"'s experience will be left alone and people started arguing about resources and even turned on their own ideas for sad reasons like "people are too stupid/greedy, they will just want more and then ruin other people's experience in the end" (more or less), and for the simple sake of arguing then start playing social f'cking politics acting like victims of verbal-hostility when they finally egg people on too far while being uncompromisable just wasting the time of people who are actually trying to get something accomplished in the only place on the forums where that type of talk belongs, in the PvP forums.
With that said this thread is different. This thread is going nowhere and had no chance even from the first post because of the topic title containing "vs". Upon reading the title people came into this thread, ignored the OP for the most part, and started geting angry and declaring what side they were on, seeking out like-minded player's attention. I think you have a lot of good points, but they are being ignored by most of the people posting here, as usual.
Also I'd gladly play with or against someone like adon or vlad. The only things that kept wow and d2 charming for me WAS the open world hostility environment. I'm not suggesting that happen in open public games for d3, but I was a part of that pvp community where the mentality is basically "what's up" not "my gear score is so high I killed a dragon". I'd like to note that I vaguely remember playing against them a decade ago in d2 when I was a lot more childish and quick to anger, and despite that and because of it I'd much rather play with them than someone who can't handle having their manhood questioned.
And to wrap it up let me say this. The public queue system creates assholes as bad as the griefers I hear about so often, they are basically closet-griefers. Why? Because there is no real consequence for skrewing around with people or not carrying your weight etc. What are they going to do, kick you out of a game if they notice you're not playing to their liking? There's nothing to stop people from being self-proclaimed elitist prick "bullies" either, or joining up with 2 friends and just griefing people out of games once the kick feature is added. Back when wow was a same-server community you had to be nice to people and earn people's respect. There were rivalries like nothing that exists today even in the arena over battlegrounds and territorial disputes and guilds. But what happened when they added cross server and later added pick up group queues cross server? The communities died and everyone became something of an asshat. You didn't need to be well liked, you just need to click a button and you're in. Your gear not good enough from a quick inspection, see ya later. Also the content got dumbed down enough, even the end game content, so that it was puggable by a group of completely random players. Back in vanilla and in TBC raiding was freaking hard, but carried soooooo much more gratification when you finally triumphed. That's gone now. The game is a joke in every aspect. You aren't being social by queuing into public quests, you're just looking for things to move around your screen like pets independent from you and hoping for a quick clear for exp and a bunch of convenient, easy to get loot (not too different from the queue system in wow nowadays). Are you seriously going to drop that epic chest piece you found to some complete random kid who's jerking off in the game? No, you're going to save it for someone worth your time or sell it yourself. With that said Diablo is not wow, but the fact remains that there is no real noteworthy consequence for being an ahole in d3 all the same, and I expect nothing more from the people playing in public games together. People ninja'd crap all the time in wow, and you could even roll on it and see every little thing that dropped. 999/1000 times people are going to keep anything of value they find themselves. If you were playing with actual friends however, it'd be a different story.
Blizzard already has the data and knows how important (or not) PvP was to D2. They've made D3's PvP accordingly. /thread.
I feel Diablo 3 is aimed more at PvM currently rather than PvP (not because PvP isnt being launched on release) and feel it will show a similar following like D2. On release of D2 PvP was almost nonexistent at the start as everyone was trying to level up and magic find items to try out different characters and builds. But once item's and runes began to circulate, D2 quickly moved to trading/character builds. After that the PvP community emerged in a storm, as almost an endless amount of builds were quickly tried and tested. There was a huge PvP community in D2 with each ladder season in its height of popularity. Granted there were still lots of people who played it only for PvM.
But alas, sadly Diablo 3 in my own opinion will revolve around PvP. PvM will be balanced around PvP. I hope to God I am wrong but I feel it will be just like WoW.
1. Class A becomes OP in PvP
2. People rage on forums because their class isnt FOTM
3. Everyone Rerolls to FOTM
4. Blizz finally puts a patch/hotfix out to address the skill/class
5. PvP FOTM class QQ about nerf in PvP
6. PvM'ers QQ about nerf to PvM
Its a vicious cycle. I mean hell for those of you who played WoW know. A perfect example of above was the most recent cata, Blood Death Knights with Vengeance stacking and Death strike. I knew how to kite/take off vengeance stacks to kill them easy, but a majority of "casuals" who didnt know would just complain on forums. Rogue mace stuns, Druid Shapeshifts, Warrior charges, Mortal Strike PreWrath, SL-SL Lock, Death strike, Frost Mages, the list goes on and on. This argument doesnt only apply to D3 it will always apply to any game that has a PVP/PVM component as long as the game creaters are updating there will always be changes to skills/mechanics to balance things out. Blizzard will always listen to the fans (although many will argue it doesnt seem like it). If there is enough public outcry for something, Blizzard will more than likely change/fix it to keep their fanbase happy otherwise it would be a marketing disaster for the franchise or any other future game franchises.
Again these are all my own opinion.