1300 dps is working as intended 2h have never had significantly more dps than 1 nor should they. They have high alpha damage and slow attack speed. It has nothing to do wit's why they are bad ATM. The reason why they are bad is that they only role 4 primary stats and a socket is also a primary stat. So after it has roled say dex and % damage and elemental damage and a socket your don't get much better. No room for life on hit or crit etc.
2Handers absolutely must be significantly better than 1handers to be even considered by players. Why, you might ask? Because they have to make up for(in Monk/Barbs case): Either a shield or more commonly... 15% ias, 200-400 primary stat, an extra gem slot (+11%+ damage to elites or +100%-110% crit hit damage). They do make up for the stat, but 15% ias AND an extra gem slot is MASSIVE. In the case of Witch doctor & Wizard it has to make up 220 average damage(on a 1.6s weapon, ~350 dps) for an average offhand. I know jack about demon hunter gearing, so I won't comment on their bows vs xbow vs 1h crossbows.
15% IAS and an Extra gem slot. Up to 350-400 DPS(base), 10% crit as well as flavor. These are the two things you give up to go 2h. At the very least, 2H should be seeing 1600-1700 base DPS, and EVEN THEN they may not be optimal, due to gems. (We're seeing 1300-1400 DPS 1Hs with gem slots and 300+ primary stat on top of the end rolls. Two of these are equivalent of ~1610 DPS. Couple 100% crit hit damage, and you've got a lot to make up here.)
So Yes, 2Hs should have a significant advantage over 1Hs. Otherwise there is no reason to use a 2H except in niche builds, and even in those it may be seen as disadvantageous over simply using a 1h with a shield. I can't even fathom when a 2.0 rolled 2H can ever be even considered on a witch doctor or Wizard, due to how powerful offhands are.
Blizzard also agrees with this, as can be seen by crafted items. *spoilers*:
1300 dps couldnt be true this is a joke... i got blackguard with 1400 dps and my thunderfury 1250 and wkl 950 dps and im still getting 26% more dmg and this wkl is crap... this cant be true 1400 dps isnt 2h dmg wise when you can get 1h with 1400 dps aswell doesnt make sense and how do you know thats what they meant? and on top of that if they increase the max dmg the dps of the wep should be higher so why its still rolling this 1000-1400 dps? and i saw another post explaining the math of 2h weps and its wrong it should roll around 1300-1600 im pretty sure the bug still aint fixed other 2h are worthless other than very very very specific build that must use 2h which still be useless since 2h suck
I Think that's technically better than a 1h, although I'd need a CTRL+ screenshot for comparison, because It doesn't seem to be factoring in the almost double damage increase thanks to the +Arcane. Think about it. Your range isn't 1170-1408 its actually 2055-2475 which averages about 2265 DPS. This is all speculation of course , if that's how the weapons handle damage which is how I assumed they worked. Could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, although I see no reason why this isn't how it works.
Ill give it a go sometime tonight and see how it does
Been playing for a bit and 2h weapons don't seem to have changed at all.
Friend got a Manticore that still has less dps than a Danetta's Revenge (1h xbow) he got few days ago.
Don't forget that 2-handers are generally better for cooldown and dot based abilities since those only use weapon damage and don't factor in weapon attack speed or IAS. Unless I'm wrong?
Don't forget that 2-handers are generally better for cooldown and dot based abilities since those only use weapon damage and don't factor in weapon attack speed or IAS. Unless I'm wrong?
That, I think, is basically the problem. The UI makes such a big deal about DPS, which isn't actually a terribly useful stat. With a 2H, you're sacrificing the 15% IAS boost from DW, the +dmg stats from a non-weapon OH and the protection of a shield for... something? In theory, that something is harder-hitting spenders. However, the sheet DPS doesn't factor that in at all, and the UI makes it hard to tell exactly how much harder your spenders will hit for. To keep things balanced, 2h weapons should be able to roll equal stats to any combination of 1H/OH equipment... but for their base damage, it's not so clear. Given that they're slower, their spenders will intrinsically hit harder than 1H weapons already, so their DPS advantage over 1H weapons doesn't actually need to be much at all for their total damage output (which is the only stat that matters) to stay competitive.
Perhaps the UI also needs to present a stat showing how much damage the average weapon hit does, factoring in everything but attack speed, as that gives a better indication of how hard spenders will hit.
Perhaps the UI also needs to present a stat showing how much damage the average weapon hit does, factoring in everything but attack speed, as that gives a better indication of how hard spenders will hit.
The UI really needs to show "weapon damage" which amounts to DPS minus attack speed and crit chance/damage. It's a much more useful statistic for making certain choices, honestly.
Also a lot of people forget that using a 2her lowers your APS, which in some cases is a good thing. Particularly for channeled abilities that drain your resources, if you use a 2her, you need lower resource generation to sustain your attack. Being able to channel Ray of Frost, Disintegrate, Cloud of Bats, Rapid Fire, Tempest Rush ad infinatum not only allows you to gear differently and use different passives (potentially increasing DPS or survivability).
Let me get this straight. I haven't really played for a few days due to homework, but from what I get from it all is the problem people are having is that 2Handers have significantly less Sheet DPS than 1H + OH or DW. But they gain an increase per hit which can sometimes equate to better shots for certain skills? The bug is that they were rolling 1H damage stats? or that the + damage stat was/is lower than expected?
Second question, why does the DPS seem to NOT factor in the Elemental or physical + Damage affix when calculating DPS. The one someone showed earlier seemed to almost DOUBLE its damage when you factored in the Elemental damage it had on it.
Third question, would a change in the way skills show damage be warranted to fix this problem that people are having with 2Handers? and by Change how they show damage I mean instead of saying Frozen Orb does 450% damage( Made up number don't know the exact) it should say Frozen Orb deals 111002-150000 Damage? Would this allow players to more clearly see the change a 2Hander could do to help them?
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Let me get this straight. I haven't really played for a few days due to homework, but from what I get from it all is the problem people are having is that 2Handers have significantly less Sheet DPS than 1H + OH or DW. But they gain an increase per hit which can sometimes equate to better shots for certain skills? The bug is that they were rolling 1H damage stats? or that the + damage stat was/is lower than expected?
Second question, why does the DPS seem to NOT factor in the Elemental or physical + Damage affix when calculating DPS. The one someone showed earlier seemed to almost DOUBLE its damage when you factored in the Elemental damage it had on it.
Third question, would a change in the way skills show damage be warranted to fix this problem that people are having with 2Handers? and by Change how they show damage I mean instead of saying Frozen Orb does 450% damage( Made up number don't know the exact) it should say Frozen Orb deals 111002-150000 Damage? Would this allow players to more clearly see the change a 2Hander could do to help them?
I've ALWAYS hoped that they would go this route; Show the actual damage range on skills. They can still show the weapon % dmg sure, but having both would be best.
However, I see an instant problem they would run into; Skills that don't just damage once. It's going to be a tad cluttered to convert say cluster arrows, which has a base attack, then has little grenades that pop out. But It's still do-able. I've never really liked the "deals 200% weapon damage" way they went about it. I'd rather see "Deals 320k-560k damage".
Let me get this straight. I haven't really played for a few days due to homework, but from what I get from it all is the problem people are having is that 2Handers have significantly less Sheet DPS than 1H + OH or DW. But they gain an increase per hit which can sometimes equate to better shots for certain skills? The bug is that they were rolling 1H damage stats? or that the + damage stat was/is lower than expected?
Second question, why does the DPS seem to NOT factor in the Elemental or physical + Damage affix when calculating DPS. The one someone showed earlier seemed to almost DOUBLE its damage when you factored in the Elemental damage it had on it.
Third question, would a change in the way skills show damage be warranted to fix this problem that people are having with 2Handers? and by Change how they show damage I mean instead of saying Frozen Orb does 450% damage( Made up number don't know the exact) it should say Frozen Orb deals 111002-150000 Damage? Would this allow players to more clearly see the change a 2Hander could do to help them?
I've ALWAYS hoped that they would go this route; Show the actual damage range on skills. They can still show the weapon % dmg sure, but having both would be best.
However, I see an instant problem they would run into; Skills that don't just damage once. It's going to be a tad cluttered to convert say cluster arrows, which has a base attack, then has little grenades that pop out. But It's still do-able. I've never really liked the "deals 200% weapon damage" way they went about it. I'd rather see "Deals 320k-560k damage".
I partially agree with you. But if I understand correctly, this will make the process to "one build rules all" much much faster, and that is not something the devs really want. If you can see the number directly, it probably wouldn't take much time to figure quickly what skills are the best. I mean, D2 shows numbers (for Soc anyway), and it doesn't take too much wit to figure out what the best combination of skills are. Now in D3, with all these funky numbers, and hidden numbers, it is far less clear what the best path is. That is my take on the topic.
This is essentially moot though with D3, In d2 only a handful of builds were 'viable' whereas in D3 almost all builds, barring some that don't really have any damage modifiers or damaging attacks, are 'viable'. SO to say that they'd find the 1 build rules them all quicker, is not really relevant. Sure there are always going to be builds that straight up do better, but at least in Diablo 3 the margin at which they do is significantly smaller.
And Bleu they could say somethings like Cluster arrow hits explodes for an initial damage of 1k-2k then releases three grenades each dealing 1k-2k on hit. Or something similar, I don't think this would be a major problem.What I do see as a problem is the % it's not feasible for someone to sit and calculate out their damage per hit based on a percentage, and my other problem is + damage affix not factoring into the DPS of the weapon!. It's a huge part of getting extra damage!
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No they dont need to be significantly better they need to be on par. The DPS is fine to be the same as 1h as 2h have really high alpha damage which makes them really good for CD abilities. But 2h need more stats it will make the items more interesting and will be a viable option. 2 Sockets and 4 additional primary stats and 3 secondary something like that.
PS. It so stupid that we have to throw away any weapon without a socket -.- screw gems.
Exactly this.
Which one do you think you would prefer:
1.5k dps + 800 primary stat + 800 vit + 200% crit damage + 40% elemental damage
or 1.6k dps + 400 primary stat + 400 vit + 100% crit damage + 20% elemental damage
Blizzard is nerfing 2handers to the ground... just check level 70 legendary recipes. 24x 1handers and off-handers recipes, ZERO 2handers...
I'm fine with 1handers + offhand that both roll perfectly are better then one 2hander that rolled perfectly, cause it's a lot easier to get... but it should still be in the same ballpark, and viable for specs that focus on CD skills.
You quoted a post that was responding to my post and you completely skipped everything I said?
There are 2Hs, and they are substantially better than the 1hs. EVEN THOSE are being criticized by some players about being too weak, but I feel t hey're either on par or pretty damn close to what 2Hs should be. 2Hs are viable in RoS. They might not be optimal, I feel they could use a ~3-5% boost for that, but they're definitely in a good place.
Also, in the post you quoted, there is a crafted legendary two-handed mighty weapon in it. Unless you're assuming a two-handed mighty weapon is one-handed, I'd say we have craftable 2Hs.
I see your point. I was just trying to say that without showing the actual number, it would make people thinking twice before replacing items - instead of the straight forward larger number is good.
I am also not exactly certain if such improvement on quality of life justify the cost/time/resource that it would take at this point of time.
I don't think it's even necessary to show "1k-2k" ranges, just replace "450% weapon damage" with "1.5k damage", calculated from all relevant factors (i.e. everything but weapon speed). I mean, most of us could probably say what the approximate DPS of our main's weapon is, because the game shows it to us in a big bold font, but I bet not many could say what the average damage is. That's incredibly relevant information that is still not directly given in the UI.
This problem is compounded by 2.0 giving us a red/grey/green %damage metric on gear tooltips, which actually only pertains to sheet DPS, so we're encouraged by the game itself to gravitate towards high sheet DPS even though doing so could lower our actual DPS by a sizeable margin.
Having said all that, though, this could well be a case where 99% of the player base doesn't actually care about optimizing DPS, they just go with what looks cool, and the rest of us actually have the info we need, it's just a bit of a pain to crunch the numbers.
It shouldn't be a pain to crunch numbers though. That info is important and should be laid out directly in front of us. Especially when it drives the masses towards a specific item set. In this case it drives all players to play with 1H + OH or DW, which excludes a large majority of items, that Blizzard wants us to use. If they're not good enough people will just bitch and complain about not getting good drops, even though they're getting perfectly fine 2Handed weapons. This will then spur them to make 2Handers more powerful, or they'll end up giving them the boot and lower their percentage to drop based on players wants. Providing players with an easily communicable stat that can show players how much better they could be with a 2Hander in certain situations is extremely important in ensurign that players feel like their drops are still worth something.
I'm not advocating for such increases that we have to use 2 handers, but a slight damage buff over 1Handers + offhand is reasonable to ask, and I'd ask they directly use the +Damage weapon affix when calculating damage range and DPS, and make damage ranges visible.
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I would be ok with something simple, say if you mouse over "Damage" in your character sheet it breaks it down into Weapon Damage, Attacks per Second, Crit Chance, and Crit Damage.
Obviously if you aren't planning on casting a given ability more than once a second (such as any cooldown and most DoTs), then IAS and attack speed in general is irrelevant. I think that a lot of people assume that skills are doing x% of the damage stat in their char sheet when that isn't the case.
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15% IAS and an Extra gem slot. Up to 350-400 DPS(base), 10% crit as well as flavor. These are the two things you give up to go 2h. At the very least, 2H should be seeing 1600-1700 base DPS, and EVEN THEN they may not be optimal, due to gems. (We're seeing 1300-1400 DPS 1Hs with gem slots and 300+ primary stat on top of the end rolls. Two of these are equivalent of ~1610 DPS. Couple 100% crit hit damage, and you've got a lot to make up here.)
So Yes, 2Hs should have a significant advantage over 1Hs. Otherwise there is no reason to use a 2H except in niche builds, and even in those it may be seen as disadvantageous over simply using a 1h with a shield. I can't even fathom when a 2.0 rolled 2H can ever be even considered on a witch doctor or Wizard, due to how powerful offhands are.
Blizzard also agrees with this, as can be seen by crafted items. *spoilers*:
2Hhttp://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/war-of-the-dead 1H http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/utars-roar
EDIT: Never mind, missed the 2H link as it wasn't showing up as a link.
Friend got a Manticore that still has less dps than a Danetta's Revenge (1h xbow) he got few days ago.
And may the odds be ever in your favour.
Emmo#2406
Perhaps the UI also needs to present a stat showing how much damage the average weapon hit does, factoring in everything but attack speed, as that gives a better indication of how hard spenders will hit.
Also a lot of people forget that using a 2her lowers your APS, which in some cases is a good thing. Particularly for channeled abilities that drain your resources, if you use a 2her, you need lower resource generation to sustain your attack. Being able to channel Ray of Frost, Disintegrate, Cloud of Bats, Rapid Fire, Tempest Rush ad infinatum not only allows you to gear differently and use different passives (potentially increasing DPS or survivability).
Let me get this straight. I haven't really played for a few days due to homework, but from what I get from it all is the problem people are having is that 2Handers have significantly less Sheet DPS than 1H + OH or DW. But they gain an increase per hit which can sometimes equate to better shots for certain skills? The bug is that they were rolling 1H damage stats? or that the + damage stat was/is lower than expected?
Second question, why does the DPS seem to NOT factor in the Elemental or physical + Damage affix when calculating DPS. The one someone showed earlier seemed to almost DOUBLE its damage when you factored in the Elemental damage it had on it.
Third question, would a change in the way skills show damage be warranted to fix this problem that people are having with 2Handers? and by Change how they show damage I mean instead of saying Frozen Orb does 450% damage( Made up number don't know the exact) it should say Frozen Orb deals 111002-150000 Damage? Would this allow players to more clearly see the change a 2Hander could do to help them?
However, I see an instant problem they would run into; Skills that don't just damage once. It's going to be a tad cluttered to convert say cluster arrows, which has a base attack, then has little grenades that pop out. But It's still do-able. I've never really liked the "deals 200% weapon damage" way they went about it. I'd rather see "Deals 320k-560k damage".
And Bleu they could say somethings like Cluster arrow hits explodes for an initial damage of 1k-2k then releases three grenades each dealing 1k-2k on hit. Or something similar, I don't think this would be a major problem.What I do see as a problem is the % it's not feasible for someone to sit and calculate out their damage per hit based on a percentage, and my other problem is + damage affix not factoring into the DPS of the weapon!. It's a huge part of getting extra damage!
There are 2Hs, and they are substantially better than the 1hs. EVEN THOSE are being criticized by some players about being too weak, but I feel t hey're either on par or pretty damn close to what 2Hs should be. 2Hs are viable in RoS. They might not be optimal, I feel they could use a ~3-5% boost for that, but they're definitely in a good place.
Also, in the post you quoted, there is a crafted legendary two-handed mighty weapon in it. Unless you're assuming a two-handed mighty weapon is one-handed, I'd say we have craftable 2Hs.
I am also not exactly certain if such improvement on quality of life justify the cost/time/resource that it would take at this point of time.
This problem is compounded by 2.0 giving us a red/grey/green %damage metric on gear tooltips, which actually only pertains to sheet DPS, so we're encouraged by the game itself to gravitate towards high sheet DPS even though doing so could lower our actual DPS by a sizeable margin.
Having said all that, though, this could well be a case where 99% of the player base doesn't actually care about optimizing DPS, they just go with what looks cool, and the rest of us actually have the info we need, it's just a bit of a pain to crunch the numbers.
I'm not advocating for such increases that we have to use 2 handers, but a slight damage buff over 1Handers + offhand is reasonable to ask, and I'd ask they directly use the +Damage weapon affix when calculating damage range and DPS, and make damage ranges visible.
Obviously if you aren't planning on casting a given ability more than once a second (such as any cooldown and most DoTs), then IAS and attack speed in general is irrelevant. I think that a lot of people assume that skills are doing x% of the damage stat in their char sheet when that isn't the case.