A Few Ideas: Item Decay, Gear, and Weapon Tuning. Yay or Nay?

  • #61
    Quote from Bleu42

    Quote from maka

    Quote from Game Over

    Quote from maka

    Quote from VTurth

    Quote from maka

    Quote from VTurth

    I wasted to much gold on crafting, I finally ended up crafting something worth keeping and stashed it away. Now it just sits there. One day I noticed my friend could use it and forgot it was crafted. So, it just sits there still.

    I don't understand why anything needs to be BOA. :(


    Uhm....because the BoA recipes have the potential to be better than anything you can ever loot from monsters? Seems pretty obvious to me.


    Pretty obvious to you maybe. But its far from obvious to me.

    Potential to be better does not mean will be better. Like I said have some decent gear crafted, but most of its been garbage. And what I have left over I don't use, I can't even give it away to friends.

    I don't like being told what I can and can't do with MY stuff. :(


    That's the price we have to pay for uber-powerful recipes. There's no way we'd have these recipes if the product could be sold. They're just too powerful.


    @Bagstone: I get what you're saying, but I just don't see it happening. I guess we'll see (in a loooong time).

    @Stellar: stellar post. +1



    So the reason the items have to be bind on account is because the item is to powerful?

    Since everyone can go out and craft as much as they like (or can afford) everyone has the chance to get the uber items at some point, the item is uber but if it was sold from the AH it would still be uber the only diffrence is the way a player gets hold of the item.

    How good or powerful the item is makes no diffrence, just means you get lucky or not and if it's good and you don't need it u can't sell it.


    Nope. You have to play the game to be able to craft these, due to the Demonic Essence requirement. It's a reaction to the heavy AH use. You could say that their power is a reward for not using the AH to get your gear. If it wasn't BoA, it would defeat that purpose; it would just be another item turned into AH-fodder.


    Exactly. It's a reward for actually playing the game. (minus those damn bots!)


    Sounds more like a punishment to me... But, what ever you say. :D
  • #62
    I agree with BoA in theory, but I'm still enjoying self found more than AH use.

    I mainly wanted to chip and point a few things out about the current crafting system though. If you're an AH user, flipping or lucky enough to sell decent gear, then you'll have plenty of gold to craft with and can easily line up 100+ crafts to roll through when you like. Farming DEs isn't too bad, and you can easily buy the other mats you need from the AH. These people don't always need the crafted items though, and for most, it's a small upgrade that's serving as an effective gold sink.

    For self found players crafting should be more useful. It should be a means to help upgrade the gear you've not been lucky to find yet (which I believe was the original intention of crafting). Unfortunately, by playing self found your gold supply is considerably lower (assuming no AH at all). No selling gems or random yellows, no selling crafting mats. No legendary to sell for multiple millions, but the chances are that you'll need that for the upgrade anyway. Not to mention, gearing up self found to be efficient farming in MP1 takes longer and the orange lasers are few and far between anyway, meaning even less for amulet crafts.

    With that said, I'd also like to say that I don't like the original idea of item decay for all the reasons people have already gone over, but mainly because I think it will punish us honest hard working folk too much. It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's one that will be effective enough to fix the many problems.

    The suggestion for changing the way the AH works by removing the buyout and adding fair deals (by Stellar I think) sounded very interesting. IMO, the AH itself needs a change to fix a lot of things. Even if I'm enjoying self found, I still think the AH needs to be fixed so I might find interest in my AH using account again.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #63
    People really only have jumped on the item decay idea of the 3 ideas I mentioned. Some liked it, many didn't. Let me share some of my original motivation behind the idea. Like someone else mentioned, BoA is coming to D3, what the developers and CM's have been saying along with the fansites, its not hard to see the big neon lights spelling out "Bound to Account" invading our eyes, gears, and Diablo series. I'm not a fan of BoA. Its a lazy mechanic. Not looking back, looking forward: My idea is not based on the current loot system. Its based on what I believe the new system will look like and I would want it introduced in the new system when the new items come out in the expansion. Its not meant to effect the current gear because when the new gear comes out, everything currently will be made worthless anyway. Every online economy goes through this when an xpac is released. This was for a fresh start in the xpac. I suppose I should have clarified this so we didn't have to keep looking in the past. Item decay is meant as a counter to BoA which I don't like but I know its coming. I don't mind crafted BoA, but I don't want to farm and loot BoA.

    I have only seen a few people mention other ideas, would like to hear more opinions on them.

    As for that fast trade idea. God please don't let them do that mess. The first time I have a hardcore death because I am getting AH spam, I'm rage quitting. I really don't want to have to be prohibited from farming because I just posted an item on the AH. I put it on the AH so I didn't have to be hasselled and do the dance. If I wanted to do the dance I would be in trade chat or posting gear in the trade forums. It would be nice if they would have "trade" as game type instead of just brawling, monster slaying, and key warden. Even nicer is if they had a dedicated area for up to 10 people to hang out with their chars where trading, dueling,and chatting was done. Add a pvp gear vendor and boom, a sense of community is born.
  • #64
    Quote from VTurth

    Quote from Bleu42

    Quote from maka

    Quote from Game Over

    Quote from maka

    Quote from VTurth

    Quote from maka

    Quote from VTurth

    I wasted to much gold on crafting, I finally ended up crafting something worth keeping and stashed it away. Now it just sits there. One day I noticed my friend could use it and forgot it was crafted. So, it just sits there still.

    I don't understand why anything needs to be BOA. :(


    Uhm....because the BoA recipes have the potential to be better than anything you can ever loot from monsters? Seems pretty obvious to me.


    Pretty obvious to you maybe. But its far from obvious to me.

    Potential to be better does not mean will be better. Like I said have some decent gear crafted, but most of its been garbage. And what I have left over I don't use, I can't even give it away to friends.

    I don't like being told what I can and can't do with MY stuff. :(


    That's the price we have to pay for uber-powerful recipes. There's no way we'd have these recipes if the product could be sold. They're just too powerful.


    @Bagstone: I get what you're saying, but I just don't see it happening. I guess we'll see (in a loooong time).

    @Stellar: stellar post. +1



    So the reason the items have to be bind on account is because the item is to powerful?

    Since everyone can go out and craft as much as they like (or can afford) everyone has the chance to get the uber items at some point, the item is uber but if it was sold from the AH it would still be uber the only diffrence is the way a player gets hold of the item.

    How good or powerful the item is makes no diffrence, just means you get lucky or not and if it's good and you don't need it u can't sell it.


    Nope. You have to play the game to be able to craft these, due to the Demonic Essence requirement. It's a reaction to the heavy AH use. You could say that their power is a reward for not using the AH to get your gear. If it wasn't BoA, it would defeat that purpose; it would just be another item turned into AH-fodder.


    Exactly. It's a reward for actually playing the game. (minus those damn bots!)


    Sounds more like a punishment to me... But, what ever you say. :D

    Quote pyramid crits forum user for over 9 thousand damage :P

    Carry on now :D

    And sorry, I'm kinda against any "item decay" system. For the same reasons already presented. If anything, we need an "item buff" system, where the Mystic buffs a specific roll on your item to its max value requiring a ton of gold and specific materials.
  • #65
    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    People really only have jumped on the item decay idea of the 3 ideas I mentioned. Some liked it, many didn't. Let me share some of my original motivation behind the idea. Like someone else mentioned, BoA is coming to D3, what the developers and CM's have been saying along with the fansites, its not hard to see the big neon lights spelling out "Bound to Account" invading our eyes, gears, and Diablo series. I'm not a fan of BoA. Its a lazy mechanic. Not looking back, looking forward: My idea is not based on the current loot system. Its based on what I believe the new system will look like and I would want it introduced in the new system when the new items come out in the expansion. Its not meant to effect the current gear because when the new gear comes out, everything currently will be made worthless anyway. Every online economy goes through this when an xpac is released. This was for a fresh start in the xpac. I suppose I should have clarified this so we didn't have to keep looking in the past. Item decay is meant as a counter to BoA which I don't like but I know its coming. I don't mind crafted BoA, but I don't want to farm and loot BoA.

    I have only seen a few people mention other ideas, would like to hear more opinions on them.

    As for that fast trade idea. God please don't let them do that mess. The first time I have a hardcore death because I am getting AH spam, I'm rage quitting. I really don't want to have to be prohibited from farming because I just posted an item on the AH. I put it on the AH so I didn't have to be hasselled and do the dance. If I wanted to do the dance I would be in trade chat or posting gear in the trade forums. It would be nice if they would have "trade" as game type instead of just brawling, monster slaying, and key warden. Even nicer is if they had a dedicated area for up to 10 people to hang out with their chars where trading, dueling,and chatting was done. Add a pvp gear vendor and boom, a sense of community is born.


    What's the difference with the current pop-ups "item x got sold". It also distracts you from playing and might get you killed in hardcore.

    There's also an easy fix for that problem: just a simple popup saying "Received new fast trade offer" without any details so you don't have to further read anything. The moment you received a FT offer there could be a 15-20min delay in the timer to increase the AH cut %. So you have plenty of time to finish your current game and go check the offers before you start new run. Or drop the idea of increasing AH cut altogether and just make a FT offer expire after 30 min. So you don't have to worry about the increasing AH cut at all.

    The current way the AH works is terrible, and for that reason I havent used it in 6 months or so apart from buying gems.

    I hate that for every item I want to put up for sale I have to waste a shitload of time filling in the affixes and numbers, scanning for similar items, seeing what's the lowest price. Then changing the numbers to 85% because else you don't find any similar items. It's like a job man. Seriously, it's not fun at all. And I'm not even talking about flipping yet, i'm just talking about putting your drops up for sale.

    WTS shift + click takes me 1 second instead of 3 minutes to put a item up for sale. A mediocre item in the AH is lost in thousands of similar items from the whole continent while with WTS x you got the attention of 100+ people in trade/general chat right away. You don't have to check any prices, losing time filling in affixes. The buyers will do it for you, come up with an offer and you can continue playing :D

    People think AH is easy mode but it's not. Not at all. It just takes away the need of social interaction when trading, what many people actually consider a bad thing as well.

    With the Fast Trade system it becomes much easier. Finish up your game. Check offer. "Does the price sound fair to me?". Accept/Decline. Done. Took you 10sec max to decide before you're in a new game again.

    Same with putting item for sale. Don't have to put in the affixes etc, because there is no buyout price you can check. All you have to do is decide "What's a fair starting bid?" put in the numbers click ok and done. No more 3+ min to check out what is the lowest buyout price on similar items...

    To comment on your idea#3:

    It requires the skill system to be balanced better in the first place. Then they also need to balance the new legendary items that affect skills with them, and then after that they have to balance it even further with your skill enhancement ideas.

    It would get too complex and impossible to balance is what I'm thinking. Don't really have anything else to say about it :D

    I'm sure there's a good idea in it, but I just really don't see it happening

    I agree though that different characters should feel special and have some different purpose. To motivate people making multiple characters. This has a really good effect on the trading economy as well cause it keeps a lot more items out of economy.

    And the freedom of the skill system kind of takes away the purpose of making alts. While in D2 for example, when I was locked in a skilltree, yea it sucked in some cases, but it also kept economy stable. Because in D3 many people have only a main character and don't play alts so they need only 1 set of gear that stays out of economy. But in D2 I had probably more than 30 characters, who all had a different purpose and a different spec. Requiring different gear with different stats.

    Not only did my 30+ chars in d2 keep 6x more items out of economy than my 5 chars in d3. They also kept a broader type of items out of economy, because different classes used different item affixes etc. There were no useless items in D2 and useless items didn't clutter up the trading interface. Think about it, there's billions of items on the AH that nobody wants. They only make it harder to find what you actually want. Requiring you to fill in all 6 affixes in the AH to find what you're looking for, and taking up a lot of your time in the process... :/

    We need more incentive to play more than 5 characters. Hell, a lot of people already need more incentive to play even more than 1 character. And for that reason account shared paragon system is actually a good idea, add stat allocation to that and there's even more difference between characters. That's really going in the right direction.
  • #66
    Quote from Stellar

    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    People really only have jumped on the item decay idea of the 3 ideas I mentioned. Some liked it, many didn't. Let me share some of my original motivation behind the idea. Like someone else mentioned, BoA is coming to D3, what the developers and CM's have been saying along with the fansites, its not hard to see the big neon lights spelling out "Bound to Account" invading our eyes, gears, and Diablo series. I'm not a fan of BoA. Its a lazy mechanic. Not looking back, looking forward: My idea is not based on the current loot system. Its based on what I believe the new system will look like and I would want it introduced in the new system when the new items come out in the expansion. Its not meant to effect the current gear because when the new gear comes out, everything currently will be made worthless anyway. Every online economy goes through this when an xpac is released. This was for a fresh start in the xpac. I suppose I should have clarified this so we didn't have to keep looking in the past. Item decay is meant as a counter to BoA which I don't like but I know its coming. I don't mind crafted BoA, but I don't want to farm and loot BoA.

    I have only seen a few people mention other ideas, would like to hear more opinions on them.

    As for that fast trade idea. God please don't let them do that mess. The first time I have a hardcore death because I am getting AH spam, I'm rage quitting. I really don't want to have to be prohibited from farming because I just posted an item on the AH. I put it on the AH so I didn't have to be hasselled and do the dance. If I wanted to do the dance I would be in trade chat or posting gear in the trade forums. It would be nice if they would have "trade" as game type instead of just brawling, monster slaying, and key warden. Even nicer is if they had a dedicated area for up to 10 people to hang out with their chars where trading, dueling,and chatting was done. Add a pvp gear vendor and boom, a sense of community is born.


    What's the difference with the current pop-ups "item x got sold". It also distracts you from playing and might get you killed in hardcore.

    There's also an easy fix for that problem: just a simple popup saying "Received new fast trade offer" without any details so you don't have to further read anything. The moment you received a FT offer there could be a 15-20min delay in the timer to increase the AH cut %. So you have plenty of time to finish your current game and go check the offers before you start new run. Or drop the idea of increasing AH cut altogether and just make a FT offer expire after 30 min. So you don't have to worry about the increasing AH cut at all.

    The current way the AH works is terrible, and for that reason I havent used it in 6 months or so apart from buying gems.

    I hate that for every item I want to put up for sale I have to waste a shitload of time filling in the affixes and numbers, scanning for similar items, seeing what's the lowest price. Then changing the numbers to 85% because else you don't find any similar items. It's like a job man. Seriously, it's not fun at all. And I'm not even talking about flipping yet, i'm just talking about putting your drops up for sale.

    WTS shift + click takes me 1 second instead of 3 minutes to put a item up for sale. A mediocre item in the AH is lost in thousands of similar items from the whole continent while with WTS x you got the attention of 100+ people in trade/general chat right away. You don't have to check any prices, losing time filling in affixes. The buyers will do it for you, come up with an offer and you can continue playing :D

    People think AH is easy mode but it's not. Not at all. It just takes away the need of social interaction when trading, what many people actually consider a bad thing as well.

    With the Fast Trade system it becomes much easier. Finish up your game. Check offer. "Does the price sound fair to me?". Accept/Decline. Done. Took you 10sec max to decide before you're in a new game again.

    Same with putting item for sale. Don't have to put in the affixes etc, because there is no buyout price you can check. All you have to do is decide "What's a fair starting bid?" put in the numbers click ok and done. No more 3+ min to check out what is the lowest buyout price on similar items...

    To comment on your idea#3:

    It requires the skill system to be balanced better in the first place. Then they also need to balance the new legendary items that affect skills with them, and then after that they have to balance it even further with your skill enhancement ideas.

    It would get too complex and impossible to balance is what I'm thinking. Don't really have anything else to say about it :D

    I'm sure there's a good idea in it, but I just really don't see it happening

    I agree though that different characters should feel special and have some different purpose. To motivate people making multiple characters. This has a really good effect on the trading economy as well cause it keeps a lot more items out of economy.

    And the freedom of the skill system kind of takes away the purpose of making alts. While in D2 for example, when I was locked in a skilltree, yea it sucked in some cases, but it also kept economy stable. Because in D3 many people have only a main character and don't play alts so they need only 1 set of gear that stays out of economy. But in D2 I had probably more than 30 characters, who all had a different purpose and a different spec. Requiring different gear with different stats.

    Not only did my 30+ chars in d2 keep 6x more items out of economy than my 5 chars in d3. They also kept a broader type of items out of economy, because different classes used different item affixes etc. There were no useless items in D2 and useless items didn't clutter up the trading interface. Think about it, there's billions of items on the AH that nobody wants. They only make it harder to find what you actually want. Requiring you to fill in all 6 affixes in the AH to find what you're looking for, and taking up a lot of your time in the process... :/

    We need more incentive to play more than 5 characters. Hell, a lot of people already need more incentive to play even more than 1 character. And for that reason account shared paragon system is actually a good idea, add stat allocation to that and there's even more difference between characters. That's really going in the right direction.


    Again, I think that fast trade idea might sound good at first but the I really don't understand the purpose. Like you said, you can link in chat and do what you want. When an item is sold, I know there is nothing I have to do other than eventually then collect money. The fast trade idea has a timer, which forces us to leave game, and the action at the very least, (porting back to town in hc) to deal and dance with a transaction. By the way? Would that mean there is another little timer icon on my screen? How annoying would it be to start an end game quest, and get 2 stacks into a kew warden and then get this AH spam? Leave game, deal with it, start new game, get 2 more stacks and more AH spam. No, this idea would frustrate me to no end. Like I said, I put it on the AH so I didn't have to bother with it anymore. If you like the wheeling and dealing dances, we already have multiple forums for that.

    And so far this is just on the sellers side. Buyout makes the items available instantly. I rarely use the bid feature. Hear is an example. I'm leveling my hardcore monk this week. She is level 24 right now. She would probably be already 40ish if I had the gear for her. I am getting ready to face belial, so I wanted to gear up. Got on the AH and found some good buys, and bought them. About 4 pieces of gear total. 2 of them took 36 hours to make it to my completed stash. On the hc GAH? Bidding is ok at max level. But if I continued to play, by the time I got the gear, I would have leveled past it. I would have just placed it back on the AH and hope I could make a profit. Now imagine if that was an item I bid on and had to wait to see if I won it, then still had to wait 36 hours for gear. We're looking at half a week before I get the gear I got for a char I'm leveling. I could already be to 60 by that point.

    As to the point of item decay, I feel its a much better alternative than BoA. With BoA, you don't even have the option to trade,sell, give or lend item. With Item decay, you would. As far as my 3rd idea, its close to what I think what will actually happen. Not weapon tuning, but having quest by the artisans to to gain mats and to use current mats to adjust an item to a bit better. Weapon tuning was a more advanced idea than that. I had what they are currently talking about as an idea last year. This conversation is a bit dated due to being a year old, but this whole idea with the mystic we have now looks a lot my blacksmith idea last year. http://www.diablofan...86#entry1002686

    As for you final point, players making alts. I have this idea floating around in my head for more incentives to play. We have achievement points. I've been keeping myself busy trying to get all the achievements. What if the achievement points actually unlocked new content? Instead of being a number no one cares about? Sure we would have to make new achievements for people to get inspired to play new chars. I really just been kicking the idea around and not really thought about it much though. I do have 8 of 10 chars to level 60. But my hightest paragon level is 51 or 52. My next highest is 16. The only ways for alts to become prolific is to make them unique from your main 5 chars. SC vs HC is not enough for most as many don't even want to try HC or don't have the internet or set up to feel safe enough to do it. Here are the 3 best ways to make alts more prolific. 1) Reaching max level with alts opens new content. 2)Add a choice and permament stats in end game content. Give us a few paths to chose. But nothing that can't be undone. Even D2 had respects built in. 3)Make some gear, character bound. Quest items that unlock certain powerful builds but you have to make a choice to which item/build you want to take. Being Diablo, i almost prefer random drop loot and maybe we have to do quest over and over until right loot drops for the build we want.
  • #67
    gold spam bump
  • #68
    Well yes, every solution to something always has at least one con. In case of the Fast trade idea, the con is that you can no longer instantly buyout entire gear. But I'd say there's at least as much people that consider this a pro as there are who think it's a con. People have been whining all the time how it sux that you can instantly buy 100% of your gear through AH. Well, this is actually a solution to that problem. But I agree that to many players this sounds like a bad thing.

    The question is if the pro's outweight the cons. I think they definitely do.

    But I have no illusions. This idea of mine is never gonna get implemented in D3. But I'm currently working for a indie company who's heavily in debate if they want to include an AH in their whole game design or not. The AH could be a really good thing in ARPG's. Blizzard was just the first to do it, and it failed because it was a leap in the unknown. Other companies now have the opportunity to identify the problems with it and design a better system from scratch. But it is not an easy task.

    As for achie points being spendable it is something that I've been thinking about a while ago as well. And I think it's not a good idea to make them spendable on something that makes your character more powerful or to unlock more content.

    That way you make the achievement system a must, and there's too many players who don't like achievement style content. Achievements are in all games meant as something optional. Not as one of the main content types.

    If they would wanna make achie point spendable the rewards should be cosmetic/collector based. Not power.

    The idea is already there, you get banner patterns etc for completing achies. Now they should just add more that you can buy with achie points, so you actually have the choice what you want to unlock first, and more people might be motivated to hunt for achies.

    I'm thinking:

    - dye unlocks
    - titles
    - transmog'ish stuff
    - token to change your characters gender
    etc


    They could however introduce repeatable achies that are in line with the main goal in D3 --> killing hordes of monsters.

    - Every 10 unique rare spawn mobs killed = 10 achie points
    - Every 10 events completed = 10 achie points
    - 5 Boss kills = 10 achie points
    - 500 mob massacre = 10 achie points

    Things like that. Then you also get achie points by just playing the game like everyone does. But you just get the rewards at a slower pace than people who are actively hunting special achievements. This way achiements still remain somewhat optional and they could add a few minor power rewards to it.
  • #69
    Yea, the achievement idea, I will be honest, not thought much on it. Just kick it around sometimes when I have idle thought.

    One other problem with fast trade is this. The auction houses experience their most use in the morning hours or in the evening hours. There is small window when people get up in the morning and check AH that its highly active. A much larger window of activity during evening. Other than that, the the AH gets some use but you could place fast trades and no one but bots are there to see them. Not only that, bots could easily be created to be used to fast bid up to a certain number. Could you really be able to handle the spam from 100 or so bots at one time? Fast trade just won't work in a game with lots of players and a lot of bots.
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