^^Aah, so you DO understand. To me, that's what the OP's point is all about: the game favours 'really high DPS/really low defences' over 'really low DPS/really high defences'.
And it's not true that Diablo has always favoured massive damage. Well, it is and it isn't. It's certainly more efficient to have really high damage, but OP is not concerned with efficiency. In D2 you could be the tankiest of the tanks and you'd still be able to win your fights (given enough gear and 'skill', of course). Enrage timers go against that.
That's the whole thing: the OP doesn't care about being efficient, and that's what nobody seems to get.
Oh, I get it.
I really do, a mechanic like Enrage timers can make super tanky builds and low damage builds completely unviable at higher levels.
Most people don't care/complain about it because they are happy to go to the higher damage builds/spec, because, as I mentioned, super high damage builds are popular and fun.
TBH, I practically forgot that Enrage timers even existed, I am aware that is because I have a high damage focus on my build. (Life leech/steal tank Barb)
My point really is that all mobs have a timer of sorts with the nv stacks.
It's a soft enrage.
Hard enrages like Kul's are to stop people from gy zerging or doing other cheesy tactics to get a kill.
It fights cheesy tactics with a cheesy tactic.
Different boss fights should have different mechanics to spice the game up.
If every fight is the same the game gets boring and stale. (EQ raiding for years was like this with some slight variations)
Every fight has something you need to avoid, or watch out for until you out gear it.
Enrage is a mechanic that you have to figure out how beat it.
In one fight we actually went over the time limit but between 2 cm wizards and stomp were able to actually kill him after the time period. (Cm wizards for me fall in the cheesy tactic range)
Again I personally prefer stacking debuffs or stacking dmg which is alot more fun to me then getting one shot.
Enrage as a mechanic is good, it keeps fights short and allows gear checks without them being the stupidity that was act 2 when the game came out.
@maka
tanking is not cheesy and unfortunately it is punished by enrage.
Cheesy tactics are things like z order exploitation (pathing)- and yes they exist in this game it's just not normally worth the time
Infinite stuns to me fall in this category (cm wizards)
I believe there was a video of 4 monks stun locking diablo as well, basically anything that lets you ignore boss mechanics and mindlessly follow a rotation.
@Meepro
Gy zerg would be in a 4 player game
You don't need defensive stats for siege and kulle, you would just need to be able to kite. They increased siege speed but it is still very doable.
The enrage stops people from running around in circles until siege dies to tornadoes, you have to go toe to toe and keep dps up on kulle at the same time. It changes the fight significantly.
The enrage is a mechanic that must be overcome.
Mechanics that make you stretch are good things.
yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like. You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet. I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.
D3 built around efficiency and killing faster for more gains. I don't understand why Blizzard wants to force this on everyone via enrage timers: they need to go.
If you want to be tanky and take 50 mins to kill something, that's your own perogative and it's not going to be an "iwin button" for anyone, in fact it's quite the opposite. That's 48 more minutes of not inflating the economy, so why would anyone be against it?
Siegebreaker takes dmg from Kulle's tornados? Cool, didnt know.
Still, nobody would start doing this if they removed the enrage. You would lose your stacks, you would be awfully inefficient. Even if a few people would do this... is it bad for you? Is it bad for anyone? Is it bad for them? I guess not if they're having fun.
I believe he was referring to WW Barb Sprint tornadoes.
yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like. You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet. I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.
I don't want them to do anything to make the game easier than it already is. Frankly, it needs more difficulty installed other than just the MP setting.
That being said, enrage timers seem out of place in Diablo games.
I agree. Enrage timers only put players in a box that is unnecessary. We should be encouraging build diversity (like slower builds with high EHP and low damage).
I don't want them to do anything to make the game easier than it already is. Frankly, it needs more difficulty installed other than just the MP setting.
That being said, enrage timers seem out of place in Diablo games.
I was talking about that with a friend of mine yesterday. WHat I would like is a menu option to play Pre-1.04 Diablo. Inferno was a brick wall for me then and it would be interesting to see how I could handle it now.
Cry as you might, they wont remove it, because it's fine. As Bashiok said once, stop trying to do content that's too hard for you.
Quoting Bashiok to prove a point is never a good idea. Im glad that sarcastic prick is no longer around the Diablo 3 community. He does have a point here though. I don't know why anyone plays MP10 (excluding farming keys), there's no point.
The only time I think enrage timers have made sense is when they are sort of a gating mechanism (dps check) to point out if you can't do this, you are not yet ready for the later content beyond this which will require you to be able to burst through the a future boss mechanics in a short amount of time. The enrage timers are there basically to indicate to you in a very firm way, "you are not yet prepared". Even those are artificial but at least they make sense from a game progression perspective. For example, if there were actual boss mechanics in D3 uber fights that required you to do x damage in y time AND if they put the enrage timer on the key wardens to indicate if you can't do this much dps here, you are not ready yet for the uber encounter these wardens give you access to, that would make some sense from a game play perspective. This is not the case however.
Anyway in D3, where they have already removed timers from just about everything (the quote was something like this is about "efficiency"), not sure why there are some exceptions left. If someone is having fun taking 20-30 minutes to kill an uber, have at it. It's not going to imbalance the economy or anything -- the rings are BoP.
Not in favor of them bein removed but would like to see a little more creativity in the exicution. Maybe have an added ability every 5 minutes or something that increases the difficulty but still allows for skill.
Ok so basically i refuse to use a cookie cutter build. Ya, im pretty sure i mentioned that in my 1st post.
It's not about using a cookie cutter build, it's about the need to score in an effort to win. You demand to be declared the victor after scoreless four quarters.
Haha. Man this analogy is awesome.
What I've found when my DPS is lacking, is that it's not even a gear problem usually, most of the time I can get a bit more damage output just by moving a few runes around. I don't even think you'd need to completely respec from your non-cookie cutter, just rethink it a bit.
Oh, I get it.
I really do, a mechanic like Enrage timers can make super tanky builds and low damage builds completely unviable at higher levels.
Most people don't care/complain about it because they are happy to go to the higher damage builds/spec, because, as I mentioned, super high damage builds are popular and fun.
TBH, I practically forgot that Enrage timers even existed, I am aware that is because I have a high damage focus on my build. (Life leech/steal tank Barb)
My point really is that all mobs have a timer of sorts with the nv stacks.
It's a soft enrage.
Hard enrages like Kul's are to stop people from gy zerging or doing other cheesy tactics to get a kill.
It fights cheesy tactics with a cheesy tactic.
Different boss fights should have different mechanics to spice the game up.
If every fight is the same the game gets boring and stale. (EQ raiding for years was like this with some slight variations)
Every fight has something you need to avoid, or watch out for until you out gear it.
Enrage is a mechanic that you have to figure out how beat it.
In one fight we actually went over the time limit but between 2 cm wizards and stomp were able to actually kill him after the time period. (Cm wizards for me fall in the cheesy tactic range)
Again I personally prefer stacking debuffs or stacking dmg which is alot more fun to me then getting one shot.
Enrage as a mechanic is good, it keeps fights short and allows gear checks without them being the stupidity that was act 2 when the game came out.
tanking is not cheesy and unfortunately it is punished by enrage.
Cheesy tactics are things like z order exploitation (pathing)- and yes they exist in this game it's just not normally worth the time
Infinite stuns to me fall in this category (cm wizards)
I believe there was a video of 4 monks stun locking diablo as well, basically anything that lets you ignore boss mechanics and mindlessly follow a rotation.
@Meepro
Gy zerg would be in a 4 player game
You don't need defensive stats for siege and kulle, you would just need to be able to kite. They increased siege speed but it is still very doable.
The enrage stops people from running around in circles until siege dies to tornadoes, you have to go toe to toe and keep dps up on kulle at the same time. It changes the fight significantly.
The enrage is a mechanic that must be overcome.
Mechanics that make you stretch are good things.
yet again stacking debuffs, increased attack speed, more dmg are the enrage mechanics I like. You still have a window where things are getting out of control but aren't out of control yet. I prefer those enrage mechanics over instant whipes.
Every minute past enrage gives a 10% increase in whatever, not a bad idea.
If you want to be tanky and take 50 mins to kill something, that's your own perogative and it's not going to be an "iwin button" for anyone, in fact it's quite the opposite. That's 48 more minutes of not inflating the economy, so why would anyone be against it?
I believe he was referring to WW Barb Sprint tornadoes.
Not THIS Barb.
Let's forward stuff to Blizzard.
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To show my support, I agree. They have no place in the game.
That being said, enrage timers seem out of place in Diablo games.
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I was talking about that with a friend of mine yesterday. WHat I would like is a menu option to play Pre-1.04 Diablo. Inferno was a brick wall for me then and it would be interesting to see how I could handle it now.
Quoting Bashiok to prove a point is never a good idea. Im glad that sarcastic prick is no longer around the Diablo 3 community. He does have a point here though. I don't know why anyone plays MP10 (excluding farming keys), there's no point.
Anyway in D3, where they have already removed timers from just about everything (the quote was something like this is about "efficiency"), not sure why there are some exceptions left. If someone is having fun taking 20-30 minutes to kill an uber, have at it. It's not going to imbalance the economy or anything -- the rings are BoP.
D3Progress: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/emberos-1608/Emberos/51824579
Haha. Man this analogy is awesome.
What I've found when my DPS is lacking, is that it's not even a gear problem usually, most of the time I can get a bit more damage output just by moving a few runes around. I don't even think you'd need to completely respec from your non-cookie cutter, just rethink it a bit.
Works great.
So ya... Enrage is fine with me now.
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