The [Non-Constructive/Conspiratorial] Rant Posts: What do you think?

Poll: What do you think about the non-constructive rant threads?

Non-constructive Rants and the Community

What do you think about the non-constructive rant threads? - Single Choice

  • I can't stand to read these forums anymore. 21.6%
  • They are not neessary or healthy for the community. 59.8%
  • They are necessary and healthy for the community. 18.6%
  • #45
    Quote from Daemaro

    How do you guys feel about just general more enforcement of thread derailing? That way if there was a thread discussing a good or bad aspect of the game specifically and someone came in to just drop their opposing view for no real reason you could report that. For example is a whole thread is discussing how the current MF system isn't working well, discussing how to improve it, and someone just comes in to say "It works great. What's broke doesn't need fixing." Or if there was a thread discussing things people like about an upcoming patch and someone came in just to say "I don't like any of it, the game is still bad."


    That sounds like a very even-handed solution.

    Quote from Daemaro

    This would however mean that threads like "Things I hate about the game." containing nothing more than "MF sucks, loot sucks, bosses suck." would be allowed and people would have to stay out of that and not derail it, so that gets messy.


    I don't see a problem with that because threads like that are going to come about. The issue is not their existence, but their proliferation. Having a thread 30 pages long where people verbally joust over some esoteric view of the franchise is fine. Having that contest played out in a dozen threads in several subforums is where it begins to detract from the value of the forums.

    Quote from Daemaro

    I'm here to make the forums a more pleasurable place for everyone to visit, (within reason) so don't be afraid to state what you want, or if you feel it might be taken wrong and derail the thread, feel free to PM me with ideas as well. I think most people at this point see there is something wrong, we're all just once again trying to find the line.


    I never doubt your commitment to the forums and I agree we're simply at the point in time where the problems are visible, but an egalitarian solution requires time and effort to met out.
  • #46
    Quote from proletaria


    On topic, no whine posts are not helpful but we need to be aware of subtlety and not pass out labels to everyone who ever found something not to their liking


    I appreciate the attempts that most of you are making here to be diplomatic, but I don't think there's an attempt here to silence opposition or label anyone who isn't 100% satisfied with the game as undesirable. With that said, I think we should not be overly hesitant to apply such a label where it fits. We should not be gracious and lend the benefit of the doubt to the extent that the most obnoxious persons have free reign to essentially spam the forums.

    First and foremost we have a community here which is brought together over the enjoyment of Diablo 3. While we are behooved to listen to critics and hear the most of what everyone has to say without a filter, we are not doing ourselves any favors by letting an atmosphere of incendiary posting take over and drown out the positive guides, debates, and discussions which most of us come here for.
    That was not intended to be directed at you saying that was something you were doing or pushing for. I whole heartedly agree that when shown that someone has little to no interest in discourse but simply spewing vitriol then by all means moderate away.
    Quote from Daemaro

    How do you guys feel about just general more enforcement of thread derailing? That way if there was a thread discussing a good or bad aspect of the game specifically and someone came in to just drop their opposing view for no real reason you could report that. For example is a whole thread is discussing how the current MF system isn't working well, discussing how to improve it, and someone just comes in to say "It works great. What's broke doesn't need fixing." Or if there was a thread discussing things people like about an upcoming patch and someone came in just to say "I don't like any of it, the game is still bad."

    Those statements are not really trolling, because they may actually feel that way, but they're derailing the thread into a negative place.

    I do understand the great importance of somewhere to discuss your current problems with the game, as well as somewhere to talk about how you like the game, and just general discussion threads. It seems like a lot of the time though we get crossover with people sort of derailing threads though.
    And frankly I think that is all we could ask of you, its a fine line but there are people who take the extreme views on either side of a debate that simply hate any stance or preference that isn't their own...and yes those are the posts/people that probably should be removed
  • #48
    Honestly, whatever comes of it, I think it's pretty cool that you'd talk with us in public about it. That's a lot more than most would do.

    My biggest objection, of late, has been topics which seem to have no real purpose other than to start a fight. I don't know how to exactly articulate what I mean. Like I mentioned before, a lot of it comes down to the fact that "Diablo is Broken" just immediately comes off as more stand-offish than "Things I Dislike about Diablo." One seems to have room for discussion and rationale, the other seems really set-in-stone that the game is a steaming pile of dogshit.

    I truly worry about individual posts in threads a lot less. They're easy to report. And the report feature does put some of the onus on us forumgoers to help police the community. We're all sort of the "neighborhood watch" so to speak. But the whole threads, I find that a bit more perturbing and irritating. Much of my frustration centers around re-hashing stuff for the 23rd time that we already hashed out 22 times over the course of two weeks back a month ago, if that makes sense.

    I don't know exactly how to moderate that because I happen to be a pretty big proponent of free speech myself. I just, I don't know... I'm also a proponent of tact.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #50
    Quote from shaggy

    I don't know exactly how to moderate that because I happen to be a pretty big proponent of free speech myself. I just, I don't know... I'm also a proponent of tact.


    We can have it both ways. There are sub-forums already labeled for off-topic and general discussion.
  • #51
    imho, if you want to whine, there's a perfectly good forum full of whining at http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/

    I would love to see a D3 which enforced something similar to Elitist Jerks' "no whining" rule. If you want to discuss, discuss. If you want to theorycraft, theorycraft. If you want to whine.. gtfo, nobody wants to read it.
  • #52
    I think most people are just venting their rage on the official forums and that makes sense because its the forum of the company that actually released the product. Forums like this aren't going to attract whiners so poll is fairly pointless. Basically, you are asking ppl who like and play the game enough to discuss strategy if they don't like whiners and tbh I'm surprised the poll shows any opposition at all. Also, I think its fair to point out its not just haters, internetz lawyers, forum professors, inscutible walls of text, and fanbois, but CMs and MVPs spewing technicolor troll vomit all over the place. What really sucks is that people get banned for trolling for bringing up legitimate concerns while the MVPs can act like total morons at any given time and the CMs put up awesome cat posts for your viewing pleasure. Official forums are ran by trolls for trolls. True story.

    TL;DR I choose option #3
  • #53
    Theres like 4 people on the first page of this thread who say such succient things in this thread, but in other threads, they do exactly what they are decrying in this thread, attacking the poster, and generally just jump in straight down people's throats for disagreeing with them.

    I mean the poll alone in this thread, its troll-tastic.

    You either agree with the poll, or you are wrong, the wording alone, its troll 101.
  • #54
    Well ignore the poll then and just express your feelings on the threads in a post. The amount of arguing, flaming, and trolling I'm seeing lately obviously something needs to change so I'm giving the community the chance to influence what change is made because at the end of the day it's for you guys anyways.
  • #55
    I just think take a harder line on thread deraillers.
    And repeat topics should be redirected or merged with existing ones, even the D3 is broken topics, because, although negative, they prompt discussion, and thats what these boards are for. The people claiming this site used to be better are using the same "D2 rose tinted glasses logic" argument they spew out in every single one of these threads unprompted.
    Totally agree I quit threads should be insta-deleted.

    Theres a number of posters in this thread alone, who when disagree with a topic, don't jump in and discuss, they jump in and flame, and then 2 posts later they say close the thread its been derailed, and they are in here claiming its all QQ posts and they need to be closed.
    Yet in this thread they are perfectly reasonable, and capable of intelligent discussion, I just wish they could bring this approach to all threads, even those with opinions they disagree with.

    People need to accept some people love this game, others hate it and others think its ok. The threads reflect this in their content and diversity.
  • #56
    Quote from Zergie

    I mean the poll alone in this thread, its troll-tastic.

    You either agree with the poll, or you are wrong, the wording alone, its troll 101.


    And, yet, less than a week ago there was a hate-Blizzard thread with a very similar poll. I surely don't remember you speaking up about that. Oddly enough that thread got locked because after a few pages some guy who just wanted to rag on Blizzard, after getting clarification from Daemaro on what "civil discussion" entailed, went right back to being belligerent.

    At the end of the day, it's still a fansite, and therefore we shouldn't expect to be swimming through post after post about how Jay Wilson is a total fuckbag or Blizzard is a money-hungry corporation trying to rape us all to get grandma's social security checks, or how everything Blizzard North makes is the second coming of Christ and the only way to make a good game is to hire them and beg them to rename Torchlight 2 to Diablo 3.

    I'm not saying that negative opinions shouldn't be voiced; as I said I'm a strong proponent of freedom of speech. But there is simply something off about people who claim to hate the game, refuse to play it, quit two months ago.... but still come to a fansite to tell us how shitty our game is.

    I quit Guild Wars several years ago. I didn't understand the game, I couldn't get into it. I have never gone to a Guild Wars site, let alone a Guild Wars fansite, to tell them just how stupid I think the game is. Why? Because unless I'm going to propose some changes that would keep me interested in the game, what point is there? I can have a small degree of respect for the people who like the game, can't I? Isn't it more productive, as a whole, for me to give feedback for a game I plan on playing? To involve myself in something I do in fact care about?

    If D3 is broken and cannot be fixed, if D3 is a humongous failure... if that is how you feel, isn't it appropos to just move on? Isn't the whole problem centered directly around people who claim they quit the game but are still here trolling the shit out of people who play the game?

    Just as an example. I've disagreed with Maka probably 85 bajillion times about the AH. I do not agree with his position on that topic at all, and I think that's pretty well-known. But I don't think Maka is a troll, and I don't think that Maka is bringing down the "quality" of these forums. Why? Because he doesn't preface every post with "my friends and i all quit 6 weeks ago" or "this game sucks because everyone is quitting" or "d3 is dead." So while I very much disagree with his opinion on one facet of the game, I do not feel that he's expressing said opinion in a manner that's outright detrimental to the community at all.

    And therein lies the difference. I could name 10, 20, 30 people whose militant and antagonistic hatred are detrimental to the community. The whole "Blizzard is too Obvious" thread takes the cake for that right now. If you want to quit D3 to play GW2, fuckin great shit for you! But why are you still on this forum talking shit about Blizzard? Why is it too much to ask that people just move on in a semi-dignified manner and not this "I'm leaving but I'm breaking everything on the way out the door" approach? Is that really too much to ask?

    EDIT
    To a certain extent it's similar to me going to shop for a chainsaw, and I go to Sears and talk with a person there about what products they have for sale. For some reason I decide their prices are far too high and I tell the salesperson that I'm never shopping there again. But on my way out I decide to take a baseball bat and break a dozen pieces of merchandise and go to everyone I see shopping telling them that Sears sucks balls and that they're retards for shopping there. That's not rational behavior and we really shouldn't be forced to accept it.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #57
    Possible idea (don't know if this has been mentioned earlier as I only skimmed the 3 pages of posts):

    Make a new sub-forum for the negative things about Diablo (and move any posts that fit the category into the forum)? That way people who want to discuss things they don't like can talk about it there and people who don't want to (or don't not like anything about the game) can just avoid that forum.

    This way the rest of the forums should hopefully have a more "positive" atmosphere :)

    This is coming from someone who reads the forums a lot but doesn't post often :) I love the game and honestly don't have many if any problems with it, but the community is starting to annoy me (people just saying AMG DIABLO SO BROKEN and then everyone saying it just because someone else said it and then huge chunks of the gaming community just thinking it's a bad game because most of the hype is negative - I even have a couple of friends that don't play it because they believe the game "sucks" and when I ask them why they just say "everyone thinks it, it's broken" (not a very good reason to not play of course, "following the herd", but it happens)).
  • #58
    @Vanyali, I've considered that in the past but I'm pretty sure that much negativity focused in one place would just draw arguing and trolling en masse and it would be even more of a pain to make the mods read through page after page of negative posts to stop the arguing.

    So far it seems like a lot of people favor closing the "I quit. D3 is worst game of the year, all year, every year." and then punish people from both sides negative and positive for going into an "opposing" thread and derailing/trolling/flaming in it. A lot of topics could also be merged. We've sort of stayed away from putting a lot of red tape like that down because it inhibits discussion in some areas, but it's becoming pretty clear there's no way around expecting people to act reasonable without a little more firmness in some cases.

    Keep up the good feedback. :)
  • #59
    Censorship is never the answer. People who think it is are hilariously stupid at best, and extremely dangerous at worst.

    Whenever you try to suppress natural human tendencies, it simply ends up building up and then exploding, making a bad situation worse. Hasn't the fact that priests can't stop raping young boys taught you people anything? ^_^

    If you can't deal with what somebody is saying, it says more about you than about them. Wake up. Just look at all the religious fanatics around the world who murder people for saying things they deem heretical...

    Some countries which employ heavy censorship include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, North Korea and China... Notice any trends among those nations?
  • #60
    Quote from Zergie

    I mean the poll alone in this thread, its troll-tastic.

    You either agree with the poll, or you are wrong, the wording alone, its troll 101.


    I've taken pains to edit the OP several times now in order to please those who thought it was biased. A person of your questionable posting history should know better than to accuse me of trolling when it's clear I have been working with the community to use this post in a constructive manner.

    Quote from Bilge

    Censorship is never the answer.

    Some countries which employ heavy censorship include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, North Korea and China... Notice any trends among those nations?


    I trust you realize that comparing a video game forum to a third world dictatorship completely invalidates any point you might have had?
  • #61
    Quote from proletaria

    I trust you realize that comparing a video game forum to a third world dictatorship completely invalidates any point you might have had?

    Only to someone unwilling to discuss the issue and allow other points of view.

    To everyone else, I'm discussing censorship, which is very much on-topic in this thread.
  • #62
    Quote from Bilge

    Only to someone unwilling to discuss the issue and allow other points of view.

    To everyone else, I'm discussing censorship, which is very much on-topic in this thread.


    Are you not familiar with hyperbole?

    There is a reason discourse in congress goes nowhere, because one side compares the other to Hitler, then the next to Stalin.

    You cannot simply lump appropriate levels of moderation under the banner of censorship and claim that all posts should be afforded equal protection under the (non-existent) internet law. If there were absolutely no moderation here the forums would be filled to the brim with gold seller spam.

    You've taken what is shaping up to be a fruitful debate and turned it into a polarized censorship vs. non censorship ultimatum.
  • #63
    Quote from proletaria

    Quote from Bilge

    Only to someone unwilling to discuss the issue and allow other points of view.

    To everyone else, I'm discussing censorship, which is very much on-topic in this thread.


    Are you not familiar with hyperbole?

    There is a reason discourse in congress goes nowhere, because one side compares the other to Hitler, then the next to Stalin.

    You cannot simply lump appropriate levels of moderation under the banner of censorship and claim that all posts should be afforded equal protection under the (non-existent) internet law. If there were absolutely no moderation here the forums would be filled to the brim with gold seller spam.

    You've taken what is shaping up to be a fruitful debate and turned it into a polarized censorship vs. non censorship ultimatum.

    All I'm noticing about your stance is that it takes the spotlight completely off of Blizzard and the bad design issues which have sparked this spate of dissatisfied threads in the first place. Attacking the symptoms of a problem is make-work; the problem won't go away until you dig into its cause(s).
  • #64
    Maybe you're getting the wrong impression of whats being discussed here. It's not whether or not someone can make a thread with valid complaints and have or look for ways to improve it, its the threads that are simply "Game sucks." with no direction. The ones that provide no room for discussion.

    I'm not attempting to silence people who are unhappy with the game, infact I'm trying to find this line to protect both sides rights more than now. That way if you make a thread for instance, saying you dislike some of the design choices they made as far as the control scheme goes, and you wish they'd change it. That, on the surface, is fine (we might start cracking down on duplicate threads, not sure yet.) but that's fine.

    It's just when someone would go to the extreme to say "Blizzard sucks, you can't rebind any controls." That really leaves no room for a conversatiion. It's at that point you're presenting it as a fact rather than your opinion. It's a statement not a discussion. (this of course is just a loose example, but I'm sure you can grasp what I mean, you seem pretty intelligent.)

    Keep up with the feedback! It's good to hear things from both sides.
  • #65
    Quote from Bilge

    All I'm noticing about your stance is that it takes the spotlight completely off of Blizzard and the bad design issues which have sparked this spate of dissatisfied threads in the first place. Attacking the symptoms of a problem is make-work; the problem won't go away until you dig into its cause(s).


    As I've mentioned in this thread already: the problem is not with leveling of criticism, but the repetition of a doomsday narrative and a level of antagonism brought against anyone who would argue with any degree of optimism. I don't think anyone in this community is not aware of the problems people have brought up with the game. There have been countless threads detailing the same story, the same issues, and the same solutions. Many of us who argue that the game is moving in the right direction have described our own faults with the game.

    None of us are at fault for ignoring the symptoms or encouraging others to ignore them; however, many are at fault for attempting to describe those symptoms as incurable diseases in their own right.
  • #66
    Quote from Bilge

    All I'm noticing about your stance is that it takes the spotlight completely off of Blizzard and the bad design issues which have sparked this spate of dissatisfied threads in the first place. Attacking the symptoms of a problem is make-work; the problem won't go away until you dig into its cause(s).


    Arguably this is one of the things this thread is directly about.

    This thread is about increasing the quality of discussion on these forums. Increasing the sound-to-noise ratio, so to speak. That includes NOT derailing things. This thread is not about Blizzard and there's no reason to even bring them into this particular discussion. This thread is not about who is to blame. This thread is about the people who use THIS forum and how to get away from what I like to refer to as "RMAH raped my grandmother" posts.

    We get that you hate Blizzard. There is no reason at all to inject it into this discussion because this discussion is about how to promote reasonable, adult, discussion on these forums and eliminate not only duplicate posting but posting simply for the sake of hearing yourself whine, etc.

    If this is a fansite then most posts, including the negative ones, should be aimed at IMPROVING the game that we're a fan of. It shouldn't be posts detailing how many of your homies quit the game unless that has some relevance to how to improve the game. If a person doesn't have direct suggestions as to how to improve the game their posts should still leave things in such a manner that others could say "yeah, I hear what you're talking about and I think this would go a ways to fix it."

    But we don't need posts saying how GW2 is going to rape faces and D3 is just for pedos, or how every last little function of the game is nothing more than a RMAH scheme so that Jay Wilson can purchase a gold-plated space shuttle, or multiple posts about how shitty Legendaries are after Blizzard said they'd begun working on addressing that very problem.

    We need to be forward-thinking. But so much of the discussion is, quite literally, crying over spilled milk. Instead of crying about it, since you can't un-do it, let's talk about getting a sponge and making the best out of a bad situation. If that's beyond someone then they really should take their negativity and find another game and forum to appease themselves.

    No matter what, no game appeals to everyone. The simple fact that a game doesn't appeal to you, though, isn't carte blanche to turn every thread into a "sky is falling" hand-wringing mess of animosity and pessimism.

    EDIT
    Just to be clear here.... my stance is that we're all FANS of the game, right? I simply would expect that we'd all behave as such. People who, say, are actively rooting for Blizzard to fail have no business here as an example. We are fans, we should want this franchise to succeed, therefore we should all be forward-thinking regardless of if we have a positive or negative opinion. We should be eager to propose quality solutions instead of tear things down just for the sake of ranting and raving.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
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