anyone else feels that the fact that Nephalem Valor is lost when you change build is counter productive on their idea of eploring many builds for different packs/boss? because I was enjoying changing build when I was leveling because those spell weren't good for that or that pack, or for this particular boss etc...
for example I liked using Multishot w/ Fire at Will on my DH for normal mobs, it cleared huge pack of mobs in record time, but agains't bosses like Diablo where kiting is a must and AOE less useful, I switch it to sentry, but lvl 60 you can't really do that without losing the NV buff, I would like to be able to change build liek when I was leveling especially in inferno where you don,t know on wich crazy affixe you,re gonna fall next, some build might be good agains't a particular pack, but crappy agains't an other.
anyway just wanted to share that and see if i'm the only one feeling that way
The idea is that it requires you to find a versatile build in the end game, that is good for regular monsters, bosses, and elite packs. Plus it encourages a fast paced playstyle without stopping to change skills between fights. Without it, there really wouldn't be builds. It would just be all skills all the time, which is less challenging.
Or you could go for an all-round mf/dps gear and not worry about Nephalem Valor. Although the guaranteed rare/rares on bosses is quite big to overlook.
Playing in a team kinda helps with using a "not awesome" spec for some things but quite awesome in others, though.
The idea is that it requires you to find a versatile build in the end game, that is good for regular monsters, bosses, and elite packs. Plus it encourages a fast paced playstyle without stopping to change skills between fights. Without it, there really wouldn't be builds. It would just be all skills all the time, which is less challenging.
There would still be builds. All the buff causes is cookie cutter builds. There are not builds that you can use to kill everything, unless you have amazing gear. Without the amazing gear, trying to gear up, fighting very hard combos causes it to become very frustrating and boring at times. I would rather a cooldown to promote "builds," but even that is counter-productive. Being able to change my spec and keep the buff, so that I can actually beat a combination, would make me feel more accomplished (in-game) and make it more fun.
I definitely still experiment with builds even with the NV buff. But rather than my "build" being for one fight, I set it at the start of my game session, play for 15-60 minutes with it and see how it goes. If, with it, I can get 5 NV stacks, yay! If not, try a new one!
The cookie cutter builds at the moment are definitely the best starting point, but I think a lot of that is how rather undergeared most of us, so whatever build lets us do well in Inferno, we stick with. As people get more gear I think you'll see more crazy experimental builds. I personally really want to do a 2Hed highly offensive monk, I think I'm only 2billion gold worth of gear from doing it too!
I wouldn't mind being able to change runes without losing it. But Changing skills dropping it, I'm fine with.
This... or rune-switching making you lose one stack. I think the current system pushes people too much towards finding a single 'rigid' build, rather than one that viable because of its versatility.
I think if they could get some good middle ground, like switching runes wouldn't cancel it, or maybe you're allowed a switch right after killing an elite/champion pack.
But overall, I like the idea. It forces people to come up with builds that work against most things, instead of switching on the fly for w/e their against, thus removing almost all "builds" from the game.
I wouldn't mind being able to change runes without losing it. But Changing skills dropping it, I'm fine with.
since on most skills one-2 runes are useful that won't really change a thing i'd make the stacks going down like to 2-3 when changing build the first time then to 0 when doing it again and LOCK THE GODAMN ACTION BAR, really no reason to have it unlock anyway since you can't drag an drop skills like in wow... what's the point of having it unlocked then?
also switching passive shouldn't make you loose your stacks IMO
thing is I can't have anything else then Blizzard/venom hydra/mirror image/teleport/energy armor/magic weapon since I need a build for EVERY POSSIBLE POSSIBILITY so i need to be able to kite, hit and still avoid being one shot let's face it there aren't a whole lot of viable builds already, if you want to stack NV your choice is drastically reduced even more, since you need a build viable for every combination of affixes while being possible to beat the boss with it too...
also I like the idea on cooldown when changing skills, but put them independent of use, I mean, it's ok we can,t change skills whenever we want, but IMO the cooldown shouldn't keep us from using that skill, it's not so bad on Normal/NM/Hell, but in inferno the CD is really long... meaning you have to go back to town otherwise it's way to long before you can even use it...
I don't support "no penalty" for changing runes at level 60. And also it feels wrong to me that we can die and the NV stack isn't affected (unless you wipe for 30 minutes and it times out).
Just throwing an idea out there, maybe instead of increasing the cost of repairs (or in addition to), they just make it drop 1x NV stack when you die? And changing a rune also just drops one stack instead of resetting it and requiring 5 more packs to stack it again? Rewards those with skill/gear who can kill packs without dying, penalizes the graveyard zergers and provides more flexibility to change runes on the fly (but still with some small penalty).
For example, I kill 4 packs and have 4xNV stacks. I decide to change my build so I change several skills/runes in 1 go, and my stacks are decremented by 1 to 3 stacks. I then die once on the next pack I face once, and my stack is decremented again to 2. Kill that pack and then another 2, get up to 5 stacks. If I die 3 times to the same champion pack, my stack is decremented 3 times.
I suspect this will be really unpopular but I'm hoping to be surprised. There needs to be some risk to dying and some penalty for rune swapping. I think this type of penalty would make me more cautious about dying, but also make me less worried about changing runes if I feel like an adjustment is required.
I'm perfectly fine with curent system. This way you can't counter elite packs/bosses, you need to find optimal build working for different situations.
To say that current system limits amount of viable builds is wrong - skill disbalance ruins is what forces ppls into narrow path with little choices. Take WD - half/runes skills are bad design, 30% are inferior to other 20% and most are stuck with more or less similar builds. When Blizzard will look into class/skill/rune balance gameplay will get more interesting.
anyone else feels that the fact that Nephalem Valor is lost when you change build is counter productive on their idea of eploring many builds for different packs/boss? because I was enjoying changing build when I was leveling because those spell weren't good for that or that pack, or for this particular boss etc...
That is actually the opposite of what they wanted, i have no idea what gave you that impression.
They didn't want people to change their build every time they meet a pack, that is one of the reason they didn't make some monsters immune to a specific spell type, so people wouldn't have to respec for an encounter.
They want to reward players that stick to their build and use "skill" to overcome difficult encounters.
They want to reward players that stick to their build and use "skill" to overcome difficult encounters.
Yeah, I think thats what jay said on the interviews before the game was released. Changing builds/gear all the time is not meant to be optimal and I bet there will be some nerf to changing to mf gear at some point.
Yep, i bet that they will do some changes to how that works in the next patch, probably NV buff loss upon gear change.
I'm fine with this system. If anything I would make it a bit 'stricter' - you lose some (5%) of the NV buff each time you die or when you change equipment.
considering in inferno death is inevitable, also considering we sometimes die 4-5 times maybe even more to kill a pack due to every affixes being possible with any mobs/affixes that makes some pack virtually impossible (try a shielding mob in act 2 where they keep on going underground, you can't hit them underground, they emerge, their shield is up, then you kite, they return underground, eventually the enrage timers comes into play...) that would be a bad idea IMO
Neph's Valor is only contributing to cookie cutter builds as strongly as it is right now because the skills aren't particularly well balanced with one another and because mob damage is so high. With 1.03, the damage will be toned down somewhat which will open a few more build options. After 1.1, it'll probably shake out to different cookie-cutter builds, but more of them. I'd expect future balance patches to continue to increase the number of viable builds as time goes on.
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...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
I'm fine with this system. If anything I would make it a bit 'stricter' - you lose some (5%) of the NV buff each time you die or when you change equipment.
considering in inferno death is inevitable, also considering we sometimes die 4-5 times maybe even more to kill a pack due to every affixes being possible with any mobs/affixes that makes some pack virtually impossible (try a shielding mob in act 2 where they keep on going underground, you can't hit them underground, they emerge, their shield is up, then you kite, they return underground, eventually the enrage timers comes into play...) that would be a bad idea IMO
Their goal is to get it so that no one graveyard zergs, and that play style is counter productive, so I hope they don't make changes based on the idea that "well, everyone dies 4-5 times on a pack, so..."
Neph's Valor is only contributing to cookie cutter builds as strongly as it is right now because the skills aren't particularly well balanced with one another and because mob damage is so high. With 1.03, the damage will be toned down somewhat which will open a few more build options. After 1.1, it'll probably shake out to different cookie-cutter builds, but more of them. I'd expect future balance patches to continue to increase the number of viable builds as time goes on.
But that's less to do with NV, and more to do with the incredibly powerful mobs in Inferno. And I image there will always be the "best" set of cookie cutter builds, but hopefully we'll get to the point where it's more than two or three.
It's one of the best things they added to D3 and working as intended... clearing content (instead of boss farming) which can lead to finding random events or dungeons I haven't come across yet.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
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for example I liked using Multishot w/ Fire at Will on my DH for normal mobs, it cleared huge pack of mobs in record time, but agains't bosses like Diablo where kiting is a must and AOE less useful, I switch it to sentry, but lvl 60 you can't really do that without losing the NV buff, I would like to be able to change build liek when I was leveling especially in inferno where you don,t know on wich crazy affixe you,re gonna fall next, some build might be good agains't a particular pack, but crappy agains't an other.
anyway just wanted to share that and see if i'm the only one feeling that way
Playing in a team kinda helps with using a "not awesome" spec for some things but quite awesome in others, though.
There would still be builds. All the buff causes is cookie cutter builds. There are not builds that you can use to kill everything, unless you have amazing gear. Without the amazing gear, trying to gear up, fighting very hard combos causes it to become very frustrating and boring at times. I would rather a cooldown to promote "builds," but even that is counter-productive. Being able to change my spec and keep the buff, so that I can actually beat a combination, would make me feel more accomplished (in-game) and make it more fun.
The cookie cutter builds at the moment are definitely the best starting point, but I think a lot of that is how rather undergeared most of us, so whatever build lets us do well in Inferno, we stick with. As people get more gear I think you'll see more crazy experimental builds. I personally really want to do a 2Hed highly offensive monk, I think I'm only 2billion gold worth of gear from doing it too!
This... or rune-switching making you lose one stack. I think the current system pushes people too much towards finding a single 'rigid' build, rather than one that viable because of its versatility.
But overall, I like the idea. It forces people to come up with builds that work against most things, instead of switching on the fly for w/e their against, thus removing almost all "builds" from the game.
since on most skills one-2 runes are useful that won't really change a thing i'd make the stacks going down like to 2-3 when changing build the first time then to 0 when doing it again and LOCK THE GODAMN ACTION BAR, really no reason to have it unlock anyway since you can't drag an drop skills like in wow... what's the point of having it unlocked then?
also switching passive shouldn't make you loose your stacks IMO
thing is I can't have anything else then Blizzard/venom hydra/mirror image/teleport/energy armor/magic weapon since I need a build for EVERY POSSIBLE POSSIBILITY so i need to be able to kite, hit and still avoid being one shot let's face it there aren't a whole lot of viable builds already, if you want to stack NV your choice is drastically reduced even more, since you need a build viable for every combination of affixes while being possible to beat the boss with it too...
also I like the idea on cooldown when changing skills, but put them independent of use, I mean, it's ok we can,t change skills whenever we want, but IMO the cooldown shouldn't keep us from using that skill, it's not so bad on Normal/NM/Hell, but in inferno the CD is really long... meaning you have to go back to town otherwise it's way to long before you can even use it...
Just throwing an idea out there, maybe instead of increasing the cost of repairs (or in addition to), they just make it drop 1x NV stack when you die? And changing a rune also just drops one stack instead of resetting it and requiring 5 more packs to stack it again? Rewards those with skill/gear who can kill packs without dying, penalizes the graveyard zergers and provides more flexibility to change runes on the fly (but still with some small penalty).
For example, I kill 4 packs and have 4xNV stacks. I decide to change my build so I change several skills/runes in 1 go, and my stacks are decremented by 1 to 3 stacks. I then die once on the next pack I face once, and my stack is decremented again to 2. Kill that pack and then another 2, get up to 5 stacks. If I die 3 times to the same champion pack, my stack is decremented 3 times.
I suspect this will be really unpopular but I'm hoping to be surprised. There needs to be some risk to dying and some penalty for rune swapping. I think this type of penalty would make me more cautious about dying, but also make me less worried about changing runes if I feel like an adjustment is required.
To say that current system limits amount of viable builds is wrong - skill disbalance ruins is what forces ppls into narrow path with little choices. Take WD - half/runes skills are bad design, 30% are inferior to other 20% and most are stuck with more or less similar builds. When Blizzard will look into class/skill/rune balance gameplay will get more interesting.
They didn't want people to change their build every time they meet a pack, that is one of the reason they didn't make some monsters immune to a specific spell type, so people wouldn't have to respec for an encounter.
They want to reward players that stick to their build and use "skill" to overcome difficult encounters.
considering in inferno death is inevitable, also considering we sometimes die 4-5 times maybe even more to kill a pack due to every affixes being possible with any mobs/affixes that makes some pack virtually impossible (try a shielding mob in act 2 where they keep on going underground, you can't hit them underground, they emerge, their shield is up, then you kite, they return underground, eventually the enrage timers comes into play...) that would be a bad idea IMO
Their goal is to get it so that no one graveyard zergs, and that play style is counter productive, so I hope they don't make changes based on the idea that "well, everyone dies 4-5 times on a pack, so..."
But that's less to do with NV, and more to do with the incredibly powerful mobs in Inferno. And I image there will always be the "best" set of cookie cutter builds, but hopefully we'll get to the point where it's more than two or three.