Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
Okay I haven't played Beta so I'm not 100% on any of this, it's just what I've read off the internet. But here's just some stuff I've noticed. In Diablo 3, you can't add attributes (strength, vitality, intelligence etc). The attributes just get added automatically, correct? And with skills, you can't level skills up (like level 20 skeletons in D2). You can only get the skill once, and then add runes if you want to make it stronger. After realizing all this, I realized that there is hardly ANY customization in D3 at all. It's really limited. Someone said on another website that at level 13, practically everyone's wizards are exactly the same. Attributes the same, skills the same (because you can now just re-choose and swap skills whenever you want). The only way to customize your character is through items and runes. Doesn't all this kind of suck? I mean it makes the game way more boring. I'd really love to make a Melee Wizard or something, but if we can't control the attributes, it makes it much harder to have unique heroe builds.
What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
Fail #1: Posting on something you read about on a forum.
Fail #2: Posting on something you have no experience with.
Just saying... There are a gazillion threads on this matter posted throughout the official Diablo Forums (haven't really seen many here, thank god) that will make your head explode, therefore I see no reason to rehash it here.
Start working on a build using the talent calculators and you'll understand where all the customization went.
Like you, I am bummed that we lost stat/talent points but the rune system works very well and allows for a lot more options in a build. I wish we had stats in addition to the current system, but I never get everything I want
Hmm thanks for all posts! Helped me understand things a bit better. Fair enough, the customization of D3 isn't as bad as I said in first post.. but I'll still miss the stat point system.
Just the idea of 'respecs' doesn't really fit well in a fantasy setting, especially one that is trying to immerse you. How is it that I know all these skills, but need to pay money to 'relearn' them? Whacko. While the current iteration doesn't solve that problem entirely, I think it sits better in a story environment more than simply running to town, dropping a bunch of gold on an NPC and 'relearning' your skills while having to permanently sacrifice others.
There are countless topics and many blue responces on the topic...
Those links helped heaps.. I watched the youtube videos on why attribute and skill points were removed. Makes alot of sense now.
Just wondering - what's the deal with respecs? In D3 will it be possible to just re-choose your skills whenever you want, for free, instantly? Or do you need to pay for respec? Or is that not even in the game?
There are countless topics and many blue responces on the topic...
Those links helped heaps.. I watched the youtube videos on why attribute and skill points were removed. Makes alot of sense now.
Just wondering - what's the deal with respecs? In D3 will it be possible to just re-choose your skills whenever you want, for free, instantly? Or do you need to pay for respec? Or is that not even in the game?
You can swap skills anytime you want. With that said, it would be in your best interests to experiment and try to come up with a favored 'build' due to once you hit Inferno, they will be introducing the Nephalem's Valor buff. This is a buff that adds Magic and Gold find to your character every time you kill champs or elites. It will stay on your character until you swap skills, at which point, it will dissipate. So again, it is in your best interest to work towards a build, instead of trying to diversify too much.
I think that there will be far more customization in terms of variety of play styles, because all of the skills will be useful.
However, I will also miss having red boxes pop up at the next level and adding stats (even though everyone chose the same stats), and I agree that if you're talking about D3 lacking modifiers that permanently alter your character, there are none.
i can understand how the more hardcore players miss the permanence of their builds, but for someone like myself who doesn't have the time to constantly reroll characters, i love how flexible the new system is. it's great to find, for example, a great 2H sword for my barb, and be able to switch my skills around to benefit from the better/different stats on that weapon. and once you do that, the char plays totally different, imo keeping the gameplay very fresh. and that's only with 4 skills at a time, a fraction of the skills/runes, no legendary/set items, or socketable items, etc... There will be plenty of customization.
100% agree with Kildeer888. In reality there wasn't actually that much choice, just the appearance of having it; not dissimilar to pre-MoP talents. Hopefully MoP ones don't fall in the same category eventually.
Why do people want stats? Most went to vitality anyway, some into dex, enough for gear in strength and none at all in energy. That was how 99% of stats in builds were distributed. I fail to see the customization in that. Maybe because D2 never had any at all, however people are fooled to believe that there was. I guess people like clicking those 5 times each level (+1 for skill points).
EDIT: stat points in D2 were so boring anyway, almost nothing happened when you distributed them.
Oh how I love posts like yours.
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
Just because something didn't work in D2 doesn't mean it couldn't work in D3.
IMVHO, if it's broken then fix it, don't just throw it away
Exactly. I can live with the D3 mechanics and systems. They work and they work good. My opinion is that the D2 systems tweaked correctly would work even better though.
Im not sure if its nostalgia, or everyone was just high all the time, but D2 had basically no good customizing at all. 90% of the skills were useless in high level hell mode runs, as well as useless for any pvp. Everyone basically juat maxed out one high level skill and every high end class was exactly the same.
Why do people want stats? Most went to vitality anyway, some into dex, enough for gear in strength and none at all in energy. That was how 99% of stats in builds were distributed. I fail to see the customization in that. Maybe because D2 never had any at all, however people are fooled to believe that there was. I guess people like clicking those 5 times each level (+1 for skill points).
EDIT: stat points in D2 were so boring anyway, almost nothing happened when you distributed them.
Oh how I love posts like yours.
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
If the majority of people were posers as you call them, where is the customization? 90% of people didn't customize then.... And why? Because there were very few viable builds in D2 and the ones that were viable required said distribution of stat points.
"I know it's harsh but that's the truth". This actually put a smile on my face (and thanks for that - it's been a boring day and I needed cheering up :)). Please don't be "harsh" on me mr strange man on the internet. My psyche can't handle you being "harsh" on me.
/sarcasm (for those and probably you Adon, who didn't catch it). Get over yourself man, my world will go on and I know I'm right - math doesn't lie.
Ha, no good viable builds? I can make a viable build with any character and succeed at high level without using "top tier" skills easily.
I believe this is talked about in Doomscream's links, but I'll put a short version here with how I see it.
To the OP, the reason they removed stat points is primarily because they migrated them to Gems which now can really define your character. Unlike D2 where gems were not very useful, tended to get hoarded and, when runes were introduced rarely used to fill sockets, the new gems will dramatically change stat points and allow you to distribute stat points as you like. With this improvment to gems, they felt stat distribution was weak and redundant on a per level basis.
They also perfer using items because items are expected to, and can be changed. Contrast with stats-by-level which were more punishing for no reason. Some people will claim that now stat decisions are meaningless because they are relatively easily changed, but there is a cost to changing gems (unsocketing, combining, and socketing all cost gold at the jewler IIRC) and choosing to spec your character the way you want is precisely what D2 seemed to have (I feel it only seemed to have it, but did not acually have it. YMMV) the difference is that we are told that this system actually works as intended. If stat distribution in D2 was not meaningless (many people felt it was including the devs) then (assuming Blizz delivers on their promises) stat distribution in D3 will definately not be meaningless.
As for Skills, there are more of them without runes (I took the liberty of adding passives in both D2 and D3), the runes add variation (even if that variation is not 5x it is definately over 2x) all skills are viable for end game (unlike D2 were there were skills that were not, ex. firebolt) and whoever said all lvl 13 anything in the beta were identical was missinformed or lying. just open Beta weekend proved that to anyone paying attention. Skill points were just a way of selecting which skills you want and making them viable at end game. Now that all skills are viable you get to choose what skills you want to use without the tedious second step of repetitive clicking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Like the devs have been saying for a long time now (and this applies to WoW as well), there is true choice, and there is the illusion of choice.
If you are given talent trees and stat points to choose within, and there are 100,000 possible combinations, that seems like a lot of choices. However, if 99,998 of those combinations will result in a sub par character, is that really a choice? No, you have two real choices.
This is how it was in D2 (I made the numbers up obviously), and this is how it currently is in WoW. You look up a spec and click click click until you fill out the tree. You aren't making real decisions, you are copying theorycrafters and veteran players who have already analyzed each option for you.
In D3 you do have many possible combinations of skills, and it is on you to decide which work best for you. I'm sure some combinations will be sub-optimal, but far fewer than in D2. It comes down to how you like to play, which is great.
So we agree that atribute points dont really affect gameplay in D2, right? And i for one can't think of anyway attribute points would benefit gameplay in D3 either... can anybody help here, because i know that if they improve the gameplay, i want them in the game.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
Supposedly they are useful for characters now. Each character can increase damage significantly (1% per point dealing with point values ine the 200 range on individual items), vitality significantly at 10 HP per point, etc., etc. Now one thing I am concerned about is that each stat also adds to a type of defense (str=Armor; dex=Dodge; int=resistance; vit=Health Pool) so I don't know how that will work out in terms of choice viability. Will a character be more of a glass cannon if they focus on their primary stat and more of a tank if they spread points out evenly? or will the choice be Primary stat or Vitality and the other 2 don't matter? or some other outcome that I haven't come up wit yet? Lets hope that its not the second one at least...
In short they do matter, but how much each one matters for each class is up for debate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
In D3 all stat points have some use to all characters, be it Str on a Wiz increasing armour or Int on a Barb increasing resistances. As is, if I want to create a 'tank' barb I have to rely on items to do so. Why can I not create the character I want with stat point distribution and then 'round off the edges' with items? If I choose to make a Vit heavy build on my character I can then compensate if I feel the need, with items that do more damage or have Str on. If I choose to make a Str heavy Barb with limited points in Int for res, Dex for dodge and Vit for health pool and make more of a 'reckless beserker' approach, then why can't I?
Say I choose to make a shield block Barb and decide I don't care for dodge chances, then why would I ever want a point in Dex?
You can do this, the 60 points you get in Dexterity won't matter when compared to the 120 points you get from 1 gem out of who knows how many. As I said before the Stats were just moved
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
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What do you guys think? If I've got some stuff wrong, please explain how it all works (and how customization is in fact very good, if that's the case?)
Fail #1: Posting on something you read about on a forum.
Fail #2: Posting on something you have no experience with.
Just saying... There are a gazillion threads on this matter posted throughout the official Diablo Forums (haven't really seen many here, thank god) that will make your head explode, therefore I see no reason to rehash it here.
Like you, I am bummed that we lost stat/talent points but the rune system works very well and allows for a lot more options in a build. I wish we had stats in addition to the current system, but I never get everything I want
Those links helped heaps.. I watched the youtube videos on why attribute and skill points were removed. Makes alot of sense now.
Just wondering - what's the deal with respecs? In D3 will it be possible to just re-choose your skills whenever you want, for free, instantly? Or do you need to pay for respec? Or is that not even in the game?
You can swap skills anytime you want. With that said, it would be in your best interests to experiment and try to come up with a favored 'build' due to once you hit Inferno, they will be introducing the Nephalem's Valor buff. This is a buff that adds Magic and Gold find to your character every time you kill champs or elites. It will stay on your character until you swap skills, at which point, it will dissipate. So again, it is in your best interest to work towards a build, instead of trying to diversify too much.
However, I will also miss having red boxes pop up at the next level and adding stats (even though everyone chose the same stats), and I agree that if you're talking about D3 lacking modifiers that permanently alter your character, there are none.
Were characters in D2 at level 13 very different from each other?
Ok where do I start? First off you are severely wrong about D2 stats and builds. "Most" people did that build because they sucked to bad at the game to make their own and they just pose others.
Secondly, that build you stated is not required nor is it the only solution. You can easily play the game and have fun with 10+ skills and have like 160 str and 150 dex and rest in vita or energy with any class.
You fail to see the customization in that because you obviously were a poser and couldn't handle the game on your own. I know it is harsh, but that is the truth.
Now your argument that D2 stats didn't do much, I kinda agree with you to an extent. So instead of correcting that and making them useful why not just throw em all out because that is easier right?
To the OP, the reason they removed stat points is primarily because they migrated them to Gems which now can really define your character. Unlike D2 where gems were not very useful, tended to get hoarded and, when runes were introduced rarely used to fill sockets, the new gems will dramatically change stat points and allow you to distribute stat points as you like. With this improvment to gems, they felt stat distribution was weak and redundant on a per level basis.
They also perfer using items because items are expected to, and can be changed. Contrast with stats-by-level which were more punishing for no reason. Some people will claim that now stat decisions are meaningless because they are relatively easily changed, but there is a cost to changing gems (unsocketing, combining, and socketing all cost gold at the jewler IIRC) and choosing to spec your character the way you want is precisely what D2 seemed to have (I feel it only seemed to have it, but did not acually have it. YMMV) the difference is that we are told that this system actually works as intended. If stat distribution in D2 was not meaningless (many people felt it was including the devs) then (assuming Blizz delivers on their promises) stat distribution in D3 will definately not be meaningless.
As for Skills, there are more of them without runes (I took the liberty of adding passives in both D2 and D3), the runes add variation (even if that variation is not 5x it is definately over 2x) all skills are viable for end game (unlike D2 were there were skills that were not, ex. firebolt) and whoever said all lvl 13 anything in the beta were identical was missinformed or lying. just open Beta weekend proved that to anyone paying attention. Skill points were just a way of selecting which skills you want and making them viable at end game. Now that all skills are viable you get to choose what skills you want to use without the tedious second step of repetitive clicking.
But no one has ever told me what they are good for. I asure you blizzard must have gone thru this at some point and decided it wasn't any good for the game.
I know that if something is broken, you need to fix it, not discard it. But if something is useless, sometimes the best option is to discard it.
If you are given talent trees and stat points to choose within, and there are 100,000 possible combinations, that seems like a lot of choices. However, if 99,998 of those combinations will result in a sub par character, is that really a choice? No, you have two real choices.
This is how it was in D2 (I made the numbers up obviously), and this is how it currently is in WoW. You look up a spec and click click click until you fill out the tree. You aren't making real decisions, you are copying theorycrafters and veteran players who have already analyzed each option for you.
In D3 you do have many possible combinations of skills, and it is on you to decide which work best for you. I'm sure some combinations will be sub-optimal, but far fewer than in D2. It comes down to how you like to play, which is great.
Supposedly they are useful for characters now. Each character can increase damage significantly (1% per point dealing with point values ine the 200 range on individual items), vitality significantly at 10 HP per point, etc., etc. Now one thing I am concerned about is that each stat also adds to a type of defense (str=Armor; dex=Dodge; int=resistance; vit=Health Pool) so I don't know how that will work out in terms of choice viability. Will a character be more of a glass cannon if they focus on their primary stat and more of a tank if they spread points out evenly? or will the choice be Primary stat or Vitality and the other 2 don't matter? or some other outcome that I haven't come up wit yet? Lets hope that its not the second one at least...
In short they do matter, but how much each one matters for each class is up for debate.
You can do this, the 60 points you get in Dexterity won't matter when compared to the 120 points you get from 1 gem out of who knows how many. As I said before the Stats were just moved