this isnt fashion where its cool to wear 70's clothes again 40 years later. games EVOLVE and change. if everything needs to be old school lets all go play pong bro.
Yeah ... you are right that's why 75% of games released are FPS right? And thats why D3 is turning into a 3rd person shooter... oops i mean ARPG.
this isnt fashion where its cool to wear 70's clothes again 40 years later. games EVOLVE and change. if everything needs to be old school lets all go play pong bro.
But there's nothing new in swapping skills/weapons either. It's been here for decades in arcades and shooters.
this isnt fashion where its cool to wear 70's clothes again 40 years later. games EVOLVE and change. if everything needs to be old school lets all go play pong bro.
Its not evolution, that's for sure. Its removing or making it more simpler in game because they don't know how to do it right.
I think the best would be that in normal you can have free respect and all, but in nightmare and higher you should have free but limited number of respect. Or it should be paid by gold, more you respect more gold you will need for it.
this isnt fashion where its cool to wear 70's clothes again 40 years later. games EVOLVE and change. if everything needs to be old school lets all go play pong bro.
Its not evolution, that's for sure. Its removing or making it more simpler in game because they don't know how to do it right.
I think the best would be that in normal you can have free respect and all, but in nightmer and higher you should have free but limited number of respect. Or it should be paid by gold, more you respect more gold you will need for it.
I'm even fine with that... the extreme casuals aren't likely to make it past normal/nightmare.
You still have the choice of carrying the equivalent of a level 6 bash for the rest of your life, us who like experimentation, but don't enjoy the risk of destroying a character can now switch the skill. If those people want they can still carry that level 6 bash for the rest of that barb's life. It objectively it is 100% a fact that this system allows that second group you speak exactly the freedom they wish for. It allows the first group the same options they previously has by keeping the skills they originally choose. What it does not allow the first group who want to be stuck with whatever build they choose to gain the benefit of choosing a better build than the second group because the second group can change their skills. This new skill system doesn't affect the individual if you would like to punish yourself to a single unchangable build please do so, the rest of us will experiment and figure out what build we like.
People who are against easy and unlimited skill swapping don't want to punish themselves, they want a game where their decisions actually matter and good choices are rewarded. Under the current system you can pretty much have whatever you think are the 6 best skills and 3 best passives available for any given situation, but imagine if you actually had to consider if taking an AoE skill for faster trash killing or a stronger single-target skill for bosses would make your build more powerful? What if you had to decide if you wanted to pickup some defensive skills to make bosses easier (or even doable) at the cost of some killing speed on normal monsters? These were the sort of decisions that made the D2 skills system interesting (do you make a single-element sorc and rely on your merc or a party to kill immunes or do you make a tri-elemental sorc that can take anything out on her own, but kills more slowly?). Ultimately, its limitations that force a player to make meaningful decisions that make games interesting.
With that said, the addition of respecs in D2 was a great addition to the game. There's no reason to punish somebody for mis-clicking or even wanting to try a different playstyle. I like the idea of being able to try out new skills as you get them in D3, but by level 30 you have access to all the skills you ever will and should be able to start making some informed decisions at that point. Let's be generous and give players the opportunity to continue to experiment with their full set of choices through Nightmare, but then on Hell and Inferno make players commit to a build at least for the time they are in a single game. Perhaps something like allowing free skill swaps for the first 5 minutes after a player joins a game, but after that no more swapping is allowed until the next game. This would still be a far more liberal system than what D2 has, allowing people plenty of room to experiment, but would make those skill decisions meaningful enough to make them more interesting than they currently are.
Lets stop drinking the loop aid for a second. Experimentation and free skill swapping are not the same thing. Experiments are meant to be tests... NOT game flow. Blizzard could just as easily institute a training dummy or even mode, which while in the room you can freely skill swap in (until you leave and it reverts to your locked build).
Free skill swapping is no different than a shooter that only allows you to carry 2 guns at a time (except in D3 its 6 guns).
experimentation while playing the game is a lot more fun then a fukin training dummy room. terrible idea
skill swapping without penalty isn't fun... making builds that matter is alot better. skill swapping is a terrible idea.
Builds don't matter, though. They really don't. At the end of it all, you have your six abilities, and three passives, that you feel most comfortable playing with, and get the most enjoyment out of. If you find that your current build is inviable for a particular encounter, why should you be punished to correct that?
Why should someone be punished for being forced to switch out to abilities that they don't enjoy, just to complete an encounter they're struggling on, so that they can go be punished again in order to get back to the way they enjoy playing?
Yes - Yes you should. Like someone said in this thread already ... its like old school RPG elements. If you make a character that is specialized in one aspect you will have to work harder when you encounter a challenge for your specialization. Otherwise you can make a jack of all trades build that will allow you to have less weaknesses but less strengths.
You shouldn't have this easy button skill swapping bullshit. You shouldn't have this - Ah one champion i'll switch to single target nukes ... ah cool now a pack *30 second wait* now i'm switched to AOE. It Shouldn't be that easy...
I've played several ARPGS before where i screwed up my build... guess what i did... I paid a gold cost -respeced and now i'm cool. And you know what ... it still felt like character progression rather than picking up a gun in Halo.
So your reasoning is [That's the way it used to be]?
Taking an hour to download a picture was so much better, it made the image so much more vivid.
The trip was much more satisfying when it took three years by boat.
The information conveyed in his letter really meant a lot more. I'm glad it took two weeks to get here.
You could argue sentiment for the above, too. But the fact of the matter is that the world has evolved, and you'd be entirely dissatisfied you were subject to any of those scenarios. Traditional design doesn't make it better. You want to see that picture now, fly to your vacation spot, and call someone you want to talk to.
Ultimately, this game isn't about you. There are dramatically more gamers now than there has ever been, and many don't feel that masochistic design attaches them to their character. It's akin to appreciating your legs more after you've had them broken. You might appreciate them more, but it doesn't change the fact that you can't walk.
30 seconds is a lot of playtime. If you have access to the beta, I want you to try switching out your skills between every pull, and tell me how dreadfully boring it is to have to wait 30 seconds before you can play again.
Lets stop drinking the loop aid for a second. Experimentation and free skill swapping are not the same thing. Experiments are meant to be tests... NOT game flow. Blizzard could just as easily institute a training dummy or even mode, which while in the room you can freely skill swap in (until you leave and it reverts to your locked build).
Free skill swapping is no different than a shooter that only allows you to carry 2 guns at a time (except in D3 its 6 guns).
experimentation while playing the game is a lot more fun then a fukin training dummy room. terrible idea
skill swapping without penalty isn't fun... making builds that matter is alot better. skill swapping is a terrible idea.
See what i did there. I made a reply without any facts... dynamics or anything... just opinion. Like 95% of your replies.
Hitting a dummy has nothing to do with fighting a mob with certain affixes.... I so want to hit a training dummy for 2 hours trying to figure optimal DPS in a game where DPS has no bearing (I shouldn't have to explain that part, WoW does not equal D3).
Let’s stick with the gun analogy; you think shooting a brick wall monster with a pistol for 2 hours in an epic struggle is fun? Well I guess having that pistol since "level 1" was so dependent on character development; we might as well make it the only thing you can use.
Swapping skills without having to remake a character is fun, there let’s just rant about how we find different things fun for 50 posts and see where it goes. Seriously you like punishment and restrictions, I don't, just play HC mode without swapping ffs.
EDIT: To all the comments about let’s put in a limited amount respec after normal, how about you just don't swap and put limitations on yourself with having a system or someone else telling you how to play. By this logic were imposing factors that other people may not like when with the current system plus some moral obligations on your part nobody is harmed. Who cares if others swap doesn't mean you have to, damn why are people so sheep like now. If Blizzard told you to not kill people in real life to play their games would you need that incentive to abide by that moral obligation?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
well..... obviously you guys are too closed minded to every be open to anything but the past fail systems.
once they release the update on the skill n rune system within the next couple weeks we will know whos going to have the most fun in the game.
although id bet anyone here a thousand bucks they wont suddenly add attribute allocation, skill trees/points or a requirement to be in town to respec. any takers?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
Relax anyway, there's no point in discussing smth we don't know yet. The rune system hasn't been announced yet and it's a crucial part of skill system. Since the previous one was terribly casual and Blizz didn't like it in the end, there's a huge chance new one is gonna be better for RPG fans.
One thing I wouldn't like is for blizzard to let people see other people builds. It's not good for PvP. Force them to slowly discover your build while being PKed for a while
right now you can see peoples builds. but not in PVP
Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.
Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.
Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.
You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like.
Also I like this post from the battle.net topic
pretend you cant swap skills. problem solved. Source
Oh damn, that just crushed everyone's arguments =D Game over suckas. I just found what I'll be copy / pasting every time shit like this pops up =P
this isnt fashion where its cool to wear 70's clothes again 40 years later. games EVOLVE and change. if everything needs to be old school lets all go play pong bro.
Its not evolution, that's for sure. Its removing or making it more simpler in game because they don't know how to do it right.
I think the best would be that in normal you can have free respect and all, but in nightmare and higher you should have free but limited number of respect. Or it should be paid by gold, more you respect more gold you will need for it.
I think blizzard should make super hardcore mode where people cannot respec. Would solve all the problems, unless you also want to pull others in your way of thinking.
Relax anyway, there's no point in discussing smth we don't know yet. The rune system hasn't been announced yet and it's a crucial part of skill system. Since the previous one was terribly casual and Blizz didn't like it in the end, there's a huge chance new one is gonna be better for RPG fans.
I wouldn't hold my breath. Blizzard's MO recently has been to try to remove things from their games where people could be punished for making bad decisions. This seems like a good idea until you realize that the flip side of this is that it also removes the ability for people to be rewarded for making good decisions as well. (The current skill swapping as an excellent example of this--some people are happy that they can't shoot themselves in the foot anymore while other are upset that they won't be rewarded for making smart skill choices--neither group is "right" or "wrong", they are just on different sides of the same coin).
i hope you all dont take these speculation/opinionated arguments too seriously and we can all be buddies on release.
It gives me something to do at slow days at work, I don't lose any sleep over it. How can we be buddies when your going solo in D# anyways
solo for my first playthrough to prove to myself i can beat it by myself and without dying (hopefully). and only with my first char. ill be playing with friends n shit too after that. and just because i solo a lot doesnt mean i cant help a brotha out with something
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"once the pretty hardcore gamers we had testing inferno found it fairly difficult, we then we doubled it" -trolololol jay wilson
You still have the choice of carrying the equivalent of a level 6 bash for the rest of your life, us who like experimentation, but don't enjoy the risk of destroying a character can now switch the skill. If those people want they can still carry that level 6 bash for the rest of that barb's life. It objectively it is 100% a fact that this system allows that second group you speak exactly the freedom they wish for. It allows the first group the same options they previously has by keeping the skills they originally choose. What it does not allow the first group who want to be stuck with whatever build they choose to gain the benefit of choosing a better build than the second group because the second group can change their skills. This new skill system doesn't affect the individual if you would like to punish yourself to a single unchangable build please do so, the rest of us will experiment and figure out what build we like.
People who are against easy and unlimited skill swapping don't want to punish themselves, they want a game where their decisions actually matter and good choices are rewarded. Under the current system you can pretty much have whatever you think are the 6 best skills and 3 best passives available for any given situation, but imagine if you actually had to consider if taking an AoE skill for faster trash killing or a stronger single-target skill for bosses would make your build more powerful? What if you had to decide if you wanted to pickup some defensive skills to make bosses easier (or even doable) at the cost of some killing speed on normal monsters? These were the sort of decisions that made the D2 skills system interesting (do you make a single-element sorc and rely on your merc or a party to kill immunes or do you make a tri-elemental sorc that can take anything out on her own, but kills more slowly?). Ultimately, its limitations that force a player to make meaningful decisions that make games interesting.
With that said, the addition of respecs in D2 was a great addition to the game. There's no reason to punish somebody for mis-clicking or even wanting to try a different playstyle. I like the idea of being able to try out new skills as you get them in D3, but by level 30 you have access to all the skills you ever will and should be able to start making some informed decisions at that point. Let's be generous and give players the opportunity to continue to experiment with their full set of choices through Nightmare, but then on Hell and Inferno make players commit to a build at least for the time they are in a single game. Perhaps something like allowing free skill swaps for the first 5 minutes after a player joins a game, but after that no more swapping is allowed until the next game. This would still be a far more liberal system than what D2 has, allowing people plenty of room to experiment, but would make those skill decisions meaningful enough to make them more interesting than they currently are.
Sorry m8. I want to get to 60 and try all the nice builds and see how they work with my own skills, what I like and not and not to have to be unhappy because I'm not perfect and now I have to pay for it building new character. Like many ppl say, want to stick to skills, go ahead and stop pulling other people with you. Lets be super hardcore and say, that you can only have one character, one set of skills chosen before you start playing before you even know how well they work in inferno difficulty and if you want to create new character you have to buy game again. Do you like it? You don't, well why not? You say I can do it for myself without asking you to do the same. Well you can do what you want with current D3 system, too. Go ahead! What you are talking is to punish others because you like to start the game multiple times or are more clever than us and think that you won't make mistakes. I personally think that you are one of the ppl who won't get through inferno or you will do it by monkey copying skills other ppl on the net think are the best. Otherwise you have slim to none chances to get through inferno as it will force you to change skills many times before you find the ones which actually work.
This discussion is a perfect example of how Blizzards audience changed. Now you have lazy and very angry players screaming they don't want to gimp their character guess what? Learn how to develop them then, problem solved.
I'm also sick of the stupid "pretend it isn't there" arguement well it is but it just shows that this game is targeted at the lowest comon denominator. The skillsystem Blizzard is using is not build or progression based its just randomly picking skills without any sort of customization. I don't care what the idiot named Bashiok has to say. Funny thing is all the supporters of this dumbed down mechanics can only show big numbers by doing simple math, well do it with DII and you'll end up with an even bigger more unique number.
Anyway I'm sure some of the supporters are also the people who don't know what to do in an RPG, if they don't see ! over NPCs heads. Yeah I get it its an ARPG but if you call your name RPG at least offer some real customization instead of a limited FPS like system.
I'm sure this choice has also been made in order to guarantee a smooth console port. Blizzard fanbois are just an annoying bunch and one of the reason why their communities are usually the worst of the worst these days.
Been playing games for over 20 years, all blizzard games, and RPG's are actually my favourite. The Diablo series has never been an RPG and ARPG is just a RPG lore theme with smash a button. Adaptation is more than just you can only pick 6 moves from the start of the game, but hey I guess we all have different opinions on that too
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
This discussion is a perfect example of how Blizzards audience changed. Now you have lazy and very angry players screaming they don't want to gimp their character guess what? Learn how to develop them then, problem solved.
I'm also sick of the stupid "pretend it isn't there" arguement well it is but it just shows that this game is targeted at the lowest comon denominator. The skillsystem Blizzard is using is not build or progression based its just randomly picking skills without any sort of customization. I don't care what the idiot named Bashiok has to say. Funny thing is all the supporters of this dumbed down mechanics can only show big numbers by doing simple math, well do it with DII and you'll end up with an even bigger more unique number.
Anyway I'm sure some of the supporters are also the people who don't know what to do in an RPG, if they don't see ! over NPCs heads. Yeah I get it its an ARPG but if you call your name RPG at least offer some real customization instead of a limited FPS like system.
I'm sure this choice has also been made in order to guarantee a smooth console port. Blizzard fanbois are just an annoying bunch and one of the reason why their communities are usually the worst of the worst these days.
Odin. You lost bud. The vast majority of players don't care / love the system. I also trust that 'idiot' Bashiok way more than I'd trust someone raging on some forums =)
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Yeah ... you are right that's why 75% of games released are FPS right? And thats why D3 is turning into a 3rd person shooter... oops i mean ARPG.
I think the best would be that in normal you can have free respect and all, but in nightmare and higher you should have free but limited number of respect. Or it should be paid by gold, more you respect more gold you will need for it.
I'm even fine with that... the extreme casuals aren't likely to make it past normal/nightmare.
People who are against easy and unlimited skill swapping don't want to punish themselves, they want a game where their decisions actually matter and good choices are rewarded. Under the current system you can pretty much have whatever you think are the 6 best skills and 3 best passives available for any given situation, but imagine if you actually had to consider if taking an AoE skill for faster trash killing or a stronger single-target skill for bosses would make your build more powerful? What if you had to decide if you wanted to pickup some defensive skills to make bosses easier (or even doable) at the cost of some killing speed on normal monsters? These were the sort of decisions that made the D2 skills system interesting (do you make a single-element sorc and rely on your merc or a party to kill immunes or do you make a tri-elemental sorc that can take anything out on her own, but kills more slowly?). Ultimately, its limitations that force a player to make meaningful decisions that make games interesting.
With that said, the addition of respecs in D2 was a great addition to the game. There's no reason to punish somebody for mis-clicking or even wanting to try a different playstyle. I like the idea of being able to try out new skills as you get them in D3, but by level 30 you have access to all the skills you ever will and should be able to start making some informed decisions at that point. Let's be generous and give players the opportunity to continue to experiment with their full set of choices through Nightmare, but then on Hell and Inferno make players commit to a build at least for the time they are in a single game. Perhaps something like allowing free skill swaps for the first 5 minutes after a player joins a game, but after that no more swapping is allowed until the next game. This would still be a far more liberal system than what D2 has, allowing people plenty of room to experiment, but would make those skill decisions meaningful enough to make them more interesting than they currently are.
So your reasoning is [That's the way it used to be]?
Taking an hour to download a picture was so much better, it made the image so much more vivid.
The trip was much more satisfying when it took three years by boat.
The information conveyed in his letter really meant a lot more. I'm glad it took two weeks to get here.
You could argue sentiment for the above, too. But the fact of the matter is that the world has evolved, and you'd be entirely dissatisfied you were subject to any of those scenarios. Traditional design doesn't make it better. You want to see that picture now, fly to your vacation spot, and call someone you want to talk to.
Ultimately, this game isn't about you. There are dramatically more gamers now than there has ever been, and many don't feel that masochistic design attaches them to their character. It's akin to appreciating your legs more after you've had them broken. You might appreciate them more, but it doesn't change the fact that you can't walk.
30 seconds is a lot of playtime. If you have access to the beta, I want you to try switching out your skills between every pull, and tell me how dreadfully boring it is to have to wait 30 seconds before you can play again.
Hitting a dummy has nothing to do with fighting a mob with certain affixes.... I so want to hit a training dummy for 2 hours trying to figure optimal DPS in a game where DPS has no bearing (I shouldn't have to explain that part, WoW does not equal D3).
Let’s stick with the gun analogy; you think shooting a brick wall monster with a pistol for 2 hours in an epic struggle is fun? Well I guess having that pistol since "level 1" was so dependent on character development; we might as well make it the only thing you can use.
Swapping skills without having to remake a character is fun, there let’s just rant about how we find different things fun for 50 posts and see where it goes. Seriously you like punishment and restrictions, I don't, just play HC mode without swapping ffs.
EDIT: To all the comments about let’s put in a limited amount respec after normal, how about you just don't swap and put limitations on yourself with having a system or someone else telling you how to play. By this logic were imposing factors that other people may not like when with the current system plus some moral obligations on your part nobody is harmed. Who cares if others swap doesn't mean you have to, damn why are people so sheep like now. If Blizzard told you to not kill people in real life to play their games would you need that incentive to abide by that moral obligation?
once they release the update on the skill n rune system within the next couple weeks we will know whos going to have the most fun in the game.
although id bet anyone here a thousand bucks they wont suddenly add attribute allocation, skill trees/points or a requirement to be in town to respec. any takers?
Interesting, I think it's good enough
Oh damn, that just crushed everyone's arguments =D Game over suckas. I just found what I'll be copy / pasting every time shit like this pops up =P
i <3 Blizzard
I think blizzard should make super hardcore mode where people cannot respec. Would solve all the problems, unless you also want to pull others in your way of thinking.
I wouldn't hold my breath. Blizzard's MO recently has been to try to remove things from their games where people could be punished for making bad decisions. This seems like a good idea until you realize that the flip side of this is that it also removes the ability for people to be rewarded for making good decisions as well. (The current skill swapping as an excellent example of this--some people are happy that they can't shoot themselves in the foot anymore while other are upset that they won't be rewarded for making smart skill choices--neither group is "right" or "wrong", they are just on different sides of the same coin).
It gives me something to do at slow days at work, I don't lose any sleep over it. How can we be buddies when your going solo in D3 anyways
solo for my first playthrough to prove to myself i can beat it by myself and without dying (hopefully). and only with my first char. ill be playing with friends n shit too after that. and just because i solo a lot doesnt mean i cant help a brotha out with something
Sorry m8. I want to get to 60 and try all the nice builds and see how they work with my own skills, what I like and not and not to have to be unhappy because I'm not perfect and now I have to pay for it building new character. Like many ppl say, want to stick to skills, go ahead and stop pulling other people with you. Lets be super hardcore and say, that you can only have one character, one set of skills chosen before you start playing before you even know how well they work in inferno difficulty and if you want to create new character you have to buy game again. Do you like it? You don't, well why not? You say I can do it for myself without asking you to do the same. Well you can do what you want with current D3 system, too. Go ahead! What you are talking is to punish others because you like to start the game multiple times or are more clever than us and think that you won't make mistakes. I personally think that you are one of the ppl who won't get through inferno or you will do it by monkey copying skills other ppl on the net think are the best. Otherwise you have slim to none chances to get through inferno as it will force you to change skills many times before you find the ones which actually work.
Been playing games for over 20 years, all blizzard games, and RPG's are actually my favourite. The Diablo series has never been an RPG and ARPG is just a RPG lore theme with smash a button. Adaptation is more than just you can only pick 6 moves from the start of the game, but hey I guess we all have different opinions on that too
Odin. You lost bud. The vast majority of players don't care / love the system. I also trust that 'idiot' Bashiok way more than I'd trust someone raging on some forums =)