A lot of the player base point out the lack of diversity in diablo 3 (though I feel like the game offers quite a bit of choice between builds, not in the sense of truly pushing higher grifts but in the sense of having a multitude of builds to farm TX and medium grifts (60 upwards to maybe 75).
Now the argument in place is that current games like PoE offer more content (excluding D2 for now) regarding builds.
But is the diversity with games like PoE an illusion. There is a idea that came to mind to me when I further investigated the end game of PoE and the end game of diablo 3. An I came up with the term illusion of diversity (to my surprise is already an actual concept).
An illusion of diversity is the correlation of diversity that the average player may perceive as "choice" (how many builds can I play?) regarding the context of abilities and the mathematical aspect of how damage output may work and what to do to optimize the variations of the effects of whatever spells may exist (that relate to weapon and gear effects, set bonuses etc). In other words you want the most optimal build to perform whatever task it is designed for (relations of fun is a perception of the player). Other aspects are involved with multiplicative damage and additive damage regarding D3's numbers.
In PoE a lot of builds exist but as you start cranking the difficulty and getting to the end game content (farming atziri and doing group maps) you start seeing that builds start becoming way less diverse. Obviously you want the optimization that a good build offers to your respective class and what groups really want (and how fun you perceive it as).
This post was made from LiquidSG a hardcore talisman player in PoE
I agree, the diversity is immense but once you start taking medium-high
level maps into consideration that diversity is severely slashed. And
it's not that builds aren't "viable", but they start to fall so far
behind that there's very little justification in using them for anything
else than the people who hop in for half an hour or two at most. They
are just not competitive enough.
This same problem applies to leveling, although not as much. Every 6
months or so, leveling "meta" changes - freezing pulse+ground slam and
cleave/searing bond+fire trap+searing touch/flame
totem+firestorm+cyclone. It's not that other skills are bad, but they
are so much slower in clear speed than the flavour of the meta that for
anyone who is not super casually playing it makes no sense to not use
them. This makes making new characters a painful experience to those who
have hundreds or thousands of hours and many characters under their
belts. I find it hard to reroll after second rip now, because I want to
get back to mapping ASAP, and the best way to do that is FT yet again.
Some nerfs from months/years ago should be reversed, imo. Also, Dominating Blow needs to be fixed.
From his first paragraph we interpret the same concepts in d3. Tons of builds exist and are viable but once we start talking about pushing, optimally farming etc, then those builds become obsolete for a player and you're pigeon holed into one of the optimized builds that the best players use no matter of the illusion that a player is presented. Content is large in the eyes of the player which is a good market that many companies use (soda companies for example).
What d3 did was simplify the ability system and forced you to use more abilities on your bar opposed to just spamming one or two abilities like PoE and d2, this has to do with design regarding the variations of choice that may exist in games with a more complex system of abilities and passives but that very system will still produce the same results but with a lesser degree of how many abilities you use to optimize damage (or toughness).
I have a few more posts I will make one also regarding the lack of trading in D3 and why it isn't needed. In PoE it's absolutely required to have a trading system in place, if not you would have a very, very hard time getting any gear you actually need.
If you have a non-sheep comment you would like to add to the thread please do so, but I won't bother replying to average observations made about a game's "end game" etc.. players who have lots of time in d3 and PoE are highly welcome to add to the conversation.
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
He is entitled to his opinion. I disagree, i have a few chars 80+ in poe and guess what, they all have different builds!!!
Hardcore players tend to be know it alls who write books. I dont pay much attension to them
Same here I have different builds with 13 characters in D3. Have different builds with 5 90s in PoE. That's not the point of what the discussion is.
Being informed is different from being a know-it-all. Everyone has opinions right? But I find that some people's opinions are way more valid than others. And is exponentially more so with experience and research. When having a meaningful discussion about a game or any other hobby you as a dedicated participant takes an active role in bringing in-depth discussion opposed to shallow interpretation. It helps the developers and may provide insight to other players. Regardless of approval or disagreement.
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
Either way i thought it sounded emo and dumb. Its a video game, he obviously reached him limit. Probably died or something and needed to vent.
"In PoE it's absolutely required to have a trading system in place, if
not you would have a very, very hard time getting any gear you actually
need."
Required or hard? There are contradictions in that statement. I also disagree with it, i was playing my totems, found a whispering ice, made an icestorm. Ive found many items that lead to making a new char. If your "hoping" for an item i could see why you would need to trade. There are few items that are worth more than an exaulted orb anyways.
Either way i thought it sounded emo and dumb. Its a video game, he obviously reached him limit. Probably died or something and needed to vent.
"In PoE it's absolutely required to have a trading system in place, if
not you would have a very, very hard time getting any gear you actually
need."
Required or hard? There are contradictions in that statement. I also disagree with it, i was playing my totems, found a whispering ice, made an icestorm. Ive found many items that lead to making a new char. If your "hoping" for an item i could see why you would need to trade. There are few items that are worth more than an exaulted orb anyways.
Required, the drop rates are too low for someone to play casually and get all the gear they need (unless you get really, really lucky). And then you turn to trade or Poe.trade. Even when you play more than the average player it's just way better to be rich and buy the equipment you don't get from drops (which is usually the majority) from other players with chaos orbs, exalts etc.
Realistically you can build from a single item in both games. It's not that d3 lacks that, d3 it's just more efficient because you are more likely to get the legendary you might find useful, from a drop.
I'm not sure what you find dumb and emo. I don't interpret that at all from what he wrote... @.@
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"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
i think the big issue why D3 gets so much hate, while PoE is so loved is that in D3 way more players reach that part in the endgame where you are pigeonholed into only a few viable builds. Progression in PoE is slower and highly depended on your social contacts and trading skills. I guess most players don't even get to Atziri (normal), so most players have this huge build diversity. And those who reach the endgamest of the endgame but played one of the "endgame viable, but not real endgame viable" builds, hit the brick wall. But most players don't hit the brick wall and that's why people love the "build diversity" in this game.
That might be the case, honestly i always thought the reason why d3 was and is still hated from a group of players is that it's not D2 revamped. a group of players wanted a revamped Diablo 2, not a sequel.
Another issue too is a large portion of the d3 forum community contradict themselves with what they want. One min they want a focus on multiplayer and now they are focused on wanting a better solo experience etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
pretty sure every single class in d2 was garbage except for sorc unless you had an enigma. The lack of clear speed compared to what you could do with teleport was that big.
I mean, you could be doing it with every other class, but you were just doing what sorc was doing except way slower. That's not game balance in any sense of the word, although interestingly it did kind of balance out when everyone had enigmas because there was an actual reason to use other classes and pros and cons started mattering, but without enigma sorc was just far and away the best class
pretty sure every single class in d2 was garbage except for sorc unless you had an enigma. The lack of clear speed compared to what you could do with teleport was that big.
I mean, you could be doing it with every other class, but you were just doing what sorc was doing except way slower. That's not game balance in any sense of the word, although interestingly it did kind of balance out when everyone had enigmas because there was an actual reason to use other classes and pros and cons started mattering, but without enigma sorc was just far and away the best class
Sorry but I don't agree completely with this. Sure sorc had teleport as an actual hard-skill, but you're not accounting for weaknesses. Like the insane amount of elemental immunities scattered throughout D2. One example I will throw out there would be a D2 Charge/Hammers Paladin - You could achieve decent movement and speed without teleport, but also kill almost any monster in the game because of the non-elemental damage from hammers.
As far as D2 in this discussion I do agree with Shapookya - there wasn't great build diversity when you grouped together the very few optimal cookie builds.
in these types of popular (arpg) games it will always be the same... dedicated players will deduce all available data to the very few cream of the crop ideas and they will become the standards until something new develops and then the cycle repeats.
I don't even think there is an illusion of Diversity anymore.
The strongest builds, and combination of builds became a well documented fact quite early on in the latest patch.
You have the choice of diversity if you are willing to run sub optimal builds. Otherwise, your choice is from a small selection of builds that will allow GR pushing. A single DPS build and a small selection of support builds. I gave Blizzard the benefit of the doubt that this patch would, more than any other, bring much better parity between DPS builds so at the very least, your choice of dps in a party was negotiable. I honestly cannot get my head around how Blizzard managed to F!ck this up so badly. I hate to say it, but the DMO ET build is just plain broken, and has ruined this patch.
ps. In case anyone is curious, the Console version of the DMO ET is a little different than what appears to be happening on PC. We simultaneously can spam Spectral Blade and Twisters and Explosive Blast. Basically, you hold down three buttons and keep holding them down for most of the Grift. Crazy powerful, but not exactly my idea of inspired gameplay. In fact my hand gets very tired from constantly keeping the buttons pressed, and I believe some people resort to sticking the buttons down so they don't even need to hold them. In contrast, playing my Unhallowed DH feels like I'm actually playing a game that requires me to use agility and tactics, too bad it is at least 10 grifts weaker than the wiz. Why Blizzard why?!?
Oh lol, Diablo2 had in all major patches way more viable specs than we're currently seeing in D3. Much because of the "low" difficulty cap.
But also because of synergies was all you needed along with enough +skill to make any skill viable as primary attack.
Just for sorceress, she had about 20 different attacks, most specs used 2 (+static), then you have 400 different combinations, all pretty much viable to choose a spec from. The term meta used today, was called Fotm back then. And the non-Fotm specs was viable. Just as the non-meta specs can be today. Just the mindset of the players that has changed.
The enigma argument is a sad story aswell, yes it felt mandatory, but that it was hard to get was an illusion. I used not more than 5 hours farming for 1 last time ladders reset. The CTA and Hoto flail was just as "mandatory" for many, and considerably harder to get.
Oh lol, Diablo2 had in all major patches way more viable specs than we're currently seeing in D3. Much because of the "low" difficulty cap.
But also because of synergies was all you needed along with enough +skill to make any skill viable as primary attack.
Just for sorceress, she had about 20 different attacks, most specs used 2 (+static), then you have 400 different combinations, all pretty much viable to choose a spec from. The term meta used today, was called Fotm back then. And the non-Fotm specs was viable. Just as the non-meta specs can be today. Just the mindset of the players that has changed.
The enigma argument is a sad story aswell, yes it felt mandatory, but that it was hard to get was an illusion. I used not more than 5 hours farming for 1 last time ladders reset. The CTA and Hoto flail was just as "mandatory" for many, and considerably harder to get.
I totally hear what your saying regarding the infamous Enigma, but I wouldn't dare say it was mandatory. The absolute best char to kill ubers with in D2 was paly smiter.... Using Fortitude, not enigma. It just depends on what character you were playing back then. Saying that enig was mandatory just implies that you were only building chars in which enigma was the best choice (wind druids, bone necro, etc.)
Now CTA is a different story because you can't substitute the buffs from it, unless you were teamed up with a barb of course. MAYBE CTA could be considered mandatory, but imo D2 at least offered enough flexibility that I wouldn't deem any single item as mandatory. Anyway just my opinion.
An important point to remember is that the diversity available to players interested in topping the leaderboards and the diversity available to players who just want to have fun is vastly different. There is a massive amount of potential "this works on TX well enough to distill it to fastest speed" builds.
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Notice: a bit of reading. No TLDR
A lot of the player base point out the lack of diversity in diablo 3 (though I feel like the game offers quite a bit of choice between builds, not in the sense of truly pushing higher grifts but in the sense of having a multitude of builds to farm TX and medium grifts (60 upwards to maybe 75).
Now the argument in place is that current games like PoE offer more content (excluding D2 for now) regarding builds.
But is the diversity with games like PoE an illusion. There is a idea that came to mind to me when I further investigated the end game of PoE and the end game of diablo 3. An I came up with the term illusion of diversity (to my surprise is already an actual concept).
An illusion of diversity is the correlation of diversity that the average player may perceive as "choice" (how many builds can I play?) regarding the context of abilities and the mathematical aspect of how damage output may work and what to do to optimize the variations of the effects of whatever spells may exist (that relate to weapon and gear effects, set bonuses etc). In other words you want the most optimal build to perform whatever task it is designed for (relations of fun is a perception of the player). Other aspects are involved with multiplicative damage and additive damage regarding D3's numbers.
In PoE a lot of builds exist but as you start cranking the difficulty and getting to the end game content (farming atziri and doing group maps) you start seeing that builds start becoming way less diverse. Obviously you want the optimization that a good build offers to your respective class and what groups really want (and how fun you perceive it as).
This post was made from LiquidSG a hardcore talisman player in PoE
From his first paragraph we interpret the same concepts in d3. Tons of builds exist and are viable but once we start talking about pushing, optimally farming etc, then those builds become obsolete for a player and you're pigeon holed into one of the optimized builds that the best players use no matter of the illusion that a player is presented. Content is large in the eyes of the player which is a good market that many companies use (soda companies for example).
What d3 did was simplify the ability system and forced you to use more abilities on your bar opposed to just spamming one or two abilities like PoE and d2, this has to do with design regarding the variations of choice that may exist in games with a more complex system of abilities and passives but that very system will still produce the same results but with a lesser degree of how many abilities you use to optimize damage (or toughness).
I have a few more posts I will make one also regarding the lack of trading in D3 and why it isn't needed. In PoE it's absolutely required to have a trading system in place, if not you would have a very, very hard time getting any gear you actually need.
If you have a non-sheep comment you would like to add to the thread please do so, but I won't bother replying to average observations made about a game's "end game" etc.. players who have lots of time in d3 and PoE are highly welcome to add to the conversation.
If you're a casual player of PoE, D3, or just want to read about this lack of diversity (that is still called diversity when you look at lower difficulties in PoE, that's what is stated in the reddit thread) here is a thread made 4 or so months back.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/3p1mpc/lack_of_end_game_skill_viability_limiting_build/
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
He is entitled to his opinion. I disagree, i have a few chars 80+ in poe and guess what, they all have different builds!!!
Hardcore players tend to be know it alls who write books. I dont pay much attension to them
Same here I have different builds with 13 characters in D3. Have different builds with 5 90s in PoE. That's not the point of what the discussion is.
Being informed is different from being a know-it-all. Everyone has opinions right? But I find that some people's opinions are way more valid than others. And is exponentially more so with experience and research. When having a meaningful discussion about a game or any other hobby you as a dedicated participant takes an active role in bringing in-depth discussion opposed to shallow interpretation. It helps the developers and may provide insight to other players. Regardless of approval or disagreement.
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
Either way i thought it sounded emo and dumb. Its a video game, he obviously reached him limit. Probably died or something and needed to vent.
"In PoE it's absolutely required to have a trading system in place, if
not you would have a very, very hard time getting any gear you actually
need."
Required or hard? There are contradictions in that statement. I also disagree with it, i was playing my totems, found a whispering ice, made an icestorm. Ive found many items that lead to making a new char. If your "hoping" for an item i could see why you would need to trade. There are few items that are worth more than an exaulted orb anyways.
Realistically you can build from a single item in both games. It's not that d3 lacks that, d3 it's just more efficient because you are more likely to get the legendary you might find useful, from a drop.
I'm not sure what you find dumb and emo. I don't interpret that at all from what he wrote... @.@
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
Another issue too is a large portion of the d3 forum community contradict themselves with what they want. One min they want a focus on multiplayer and now they are focused on wanting a better solo experience etc.
"This forum has become far too toxic for any meaningful discussion of
the game. I hope they can sort this out and get back to making a game
we can all enjoy without cheaters ruining it for everyone. Best wishes
all."-Hammer's view on diablo 3 forums 2014
pretty sure every single class in d2 was garbage except for sorc unless you had an enigma. The lack of clear speed compared to what you could do with teleport was that big.
I mean, you could be doing it with every other class, but you were just doing what sorc was doing except way slower. That's not game balance in any sense of the word, although interestingly it did kind of balance out when everyone had enigmas because there was an actual reason to use other classes and pros and cons started mattering, but without enigma sorc was just far and away the best class
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
As far as D2 in this discussion I do agree with Shapookya - there wasn't great build diversity when you grouped together the very few optimal cookie builds.
in these types of popular (arpg) games it will always be the same... dedicated players will deduce all available data to the very few cream of the crop ideas and they will become the standards until something new develops and then the cycle repeats.
I don't even think there is an illusion of Diversity anymore.
The strongest builds, and combination of builds became a well documented fact quite early on in the latest patch.
You have the choice of diversity if you are willing to run sub optimal builds. Otherwise, your choice is from a small selection of builds that will allow GR pushing. A single DPS build and a small selection of support builds. I gave Blizzard the benefit of the doubt that this patch would, more than any other, bring much better parity between DPS builds so at the very least, your choice of dps in a party was negotiable. I honestly cannot get my head around how Blizzard managed to F!ck this up so badly. I hate to say it, but the DMO ET build is just plain broken, and has ruined this patch.
ps. In case anyone is curious, the Console version of the DMO ET is a little different than what appears to be happening on PC. We simultaneously can spam Spectral Blade and Twisters and Explosive Blast. Basically, you hold down three buttons and keep holding them down for most of the Grift. Crazy powerful, but not exactly my idea of inspired gameplay. In fact my hand gets very tired from constantly keeping the buttons pressed, and I believe some people resort to sticking the buttons down so they don't even need to hold them. In contrast, playing my Unhallowed DH feels like I'm actually playing a game that requires me to use agility and tactics, too bad it is at least 10 grifts weaker than the wiz. Why Blizzard why?!?
Oh lol, Diablo2 had in all major patches way more viable specs than we're currently seeing in D3. Much because of the "low" difficulty cap.
But also because of synergies was all you needed along with enough +skill to make any skill viable as primary attack.
Just for sorceress, she had about 20 different attacks, most specs used 2 (+static), then you have 400 different combinations, all pretty much viable to choose a spec from. The term meta used today, was called Fotm back then. And the non-Fotm specs was viable. Just as the non-meta specs can be today. Just the mindset of the players that has changed.
The enigma argument is a sad story aswell, yes it felt mandatory, but that it was hard to get was an illusion. I used not more than 5 hours farming for 1 last time ladders reset. The CTA and Hoto flail was just as "mandatory" for many, and considerably harder to get.
Now CTA is a different story because you can't substitute the buffs from it, unless you were teamed up with a barb of course. MAYBE CTA could be considered mandatory, but imo D2 at least offered enough flexibility that I wouldn't deem any single item as mandatory. Anyway just my opinion.
An important point to remember is that the diversity available to players interested in topping the leaderboards and the diversity available to players who just want to have fun is vastly different. There is a massive amount of potential "this works on TX well enough to distill it to fastest speed" builds.