Pointless 1H

  • #21


    Quote from Maffia


    But then that further gimps Crusaders that choose not to used 2H+Shield.....

    The only real options seem to be that HS gives a bonus to 1H or the negative aspect of HS is made greater.


    I think reducing the movement speed further could work, but then you'll find someone who gets that leg shield or finds a new build that negates the negative effecti of the reduction in movement speed (aka high uptime steed).

    Typically, I think Blizz likes to buff when they can. Maybe some sort of benefit of heavenly strength 1H could be something like increase the damage of your 1H strikes by 10%. I mean, you do have heavenly strength coursing through your veins and all...
    Please read the community guidelines on Trolling & Flaming before you create a new thread just to complain... http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/75118-forum-guidelines-8-19-2012
  • #22
    Buffing HS for 1h causes new problems though, it becomes a passive that everyone has to use, regardless of build. In which case you just might as well make it a baseline crusader ability, like barbs and monks taking 30% less damage.

    I think they would have to make a different passive for 1h's.
  • #23


    Quote from xaimx


    I think they would have to make a different passive for 1h's.




    100% agreed, HS is already looking like a must have passive, the way to balance this isn't to buff it :P. I still think that they need to change the passive "hold your ground", removing the dodge nerf and making it 1h only, so if you're a tank you take that, use a 1h/shield and gain 15% block, or you can take HS, us a 2h and gain higher damage dealt, at the cost of damage taken.



    Out of interest... has anyone actually checked the beta? Because last time I watched some Crusader Streams, people actually weren't use HS...



    Of course that was at the peak of Rapebeams bug exploiting fun... So damage wasn't exactly an issue :p
  • #24
    Atleast there's one specc (not sure) that will mainly focus on a good shield not main hand weapon: Punish/Shield Bash

    Atleast from what I've seen (don't wanna spoil too much) Punish and Shield Bash scale with your shield not weapon, so unless you really want the 2handers legendary effect/stats there's no reason to use it for that particular specc is there?

    Ofcourse I could be horribly wrong and 2h will still dominate, but they really should make a second passive that benefits 1h's, perhaps giving 10% movement speed instead and increasing the holy damage gained from shields by a lot (I think that's how it worked with crusader shields??)
  • #25
    I don't understand what is the hate. Are you guy suppose to be happy? Finally we have a reason to keep 2 hands.
  • #26
    it's not so much that we hate using two handers, it's just that it's lame to have one passive be an absolute MUST take, because the benefit of taking it and using 2h/shield is SO much higher than not taking it and using a 1h/shield
  • #27
    I don't think there is any hate, helpme123. The issue is that the damage output of dual wielding is far better than that of a 2 hander when you do an apples-to-apples comparison. There are a few good legendary 2-handed weapons, but it is because of some legendary property, not the base stats.

    For instance, if you had two perfect yellow/rare 1h axes versus the perfect rare 2h axe, the dual wielding will win every time. If my memory serves me correctly, a perfect pair will get roughly 25% more crit damage, more stats, faster swing time leading tofaster resource regen,and 15% built-in attack speed buff. In addition, if you have 2 separate procs that have an internal cooldown, you get them for each weapon versus the internal cooldown of 1 big weapon. The advantage of a big 2-handed weapon is skills that rely on weapon damage do more damage. That perk doesn't seem to compensate for the 1 handed perks in most situations. What players are asking for is to narrow the gap so that both are viable alternatives. You never see a well-equiped monk running around with a daibo, or well equiped barbarian run around with a 2-hander (except Skorn). When was the last time you saw a paragon 100 wizard run around with a staff?

    Back to the original thread topic, to stay relatively competitive in terms of dps, crusaders need to use heavenly strength. A one-handed weapon and shield build gives none of the advantages above. You will get resources faster than a 2-hander, but slower than a dual wielder is good, but you aren't doing much damage with your swings and your skills aren't going to hit as hard since your weapon damage is so low. So you are being forced to take heavenly strength because this game is about killing monsters. And taking a low dps build with no real advantage is gimping the character.

    So here are 2 ideas: reduce the dps gap between dual weilding and 2-handed attack styles, and let there be some viability in the non-heavenly strength builds.

    Idea 1:

    Since dual wield currently gets a 15% increase in speed, if we drop it to 10%, it will:
    -slows down secondary proc rate
    -reduces dps by about 5%

    Then we lower the monsters hit points by 5%
    -Dual wield weapons kill the monster in about the same time
    -weapon + offhand kill the monsters about 5% faster than presently (may need some off-hand lowering of Crit Hit or average damage)
    -weapon and shield kill the monsters about 5% faster than currently, making them more viable
    -2 handed weapons kill the monsters about 5% faster than currently, making them more viable

    Idea 2: reduce the weakness of 1 hander + shield by making it more survivable
    Monk and Barbarian are considered close range, and thus get 30% damage reduction to attacks
    Witch Doctor and Crusader are considered mid-range. Witch Doctor has Jungle Fortitude Passive which reduces all damage taken by 15%. Crusader doesn't get damage reduction.
    Wizard and Demon Hunter are considered long range, and thus get 0% damage reduction

    A logical passive would be for a Crusaders using 1 hand weapon to have 15% damage reduction (same as WD) or just make it an inherent class attribute that occurs when they aren't using a 2-hander. A crusader that takes 15% less damage may not kill monsters quickly, but he will not die as often to elites or higher levels.



    It is just an idea. It probably has plenty of holes in it that I am hoping someone will point out.
    Last edited by Mandrikar: 1/30/2014 10:04:53 PM
  • #28
    I think a good idea for Crusaders is to let Shield Block Value scale with Strength or maybe Stamina, when using a 1h. Either with the Heavenily Strength passive, or a seperate one *looks pointedly at Hold Your Ground*



    This would work well for crusaders as it would give ALL crusaders a toughness boost (even the damage based crusaders, as they'd have lots of Str>lots of block), and would even give the more shield based Crusaders a small damage boost as alot of the more tanky shield based abilities scale from Shield Block Value as well as Weapon Damage.
    Last edited by Talyn_Rahl: 1/31/2014 10:23:53 AM
  • #29
    I think shield block should be like D2, requires dex. If crusaders want high block, he should put more into dex instead just focusing on maxing strength.

    I do not see 2h is a problem. It is no different that you pick a higher damage skill over a lower one. This is the reason why no one use none "rune" skill. The rune skill is so much more powerful.
  • #30
    Quote from Talyn_Rahl

    I think a good idea for Crusaders is to let Shield Block Value scale with Strength or maybe Stamina, when using a 1h. Either with the Heavenily Strength passive, or a seperate one *looks pointedly at Hold Your Ground*



    This would work well for crusaders as it would give ALL crusaders a toughness boost (even the damage based crusaders, as they'd have lots of Str>lots of block), and would even give the more shield based Crusaders a small damage boost as alot of the more tanky shield based abilities scale from Shield Block Value as well as Weapon Damage.

    I like the idea of it scaling with vitality. Crusaders already get a double bonus from Str (dps and armor), so vit increasing block chance/amount would allow for vit to help more for all classes equipping a shield.
    Please read the community guidelines on Trolling & Flaming before you create a new thread just to complain... http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/75118-forum-guidelines-8-19-2012
  • #31
    I think there are two factors that we may not be considering here.

    One is that you will no longer have the AH to purchase exactly what weapon you want to use. So there may be a point where you don't use Heavenly Strength because you don't have a good 2-H.

    The other is that two-handers are slow to swing, and for the most part I hate that. It's not so bad with channeled spells, but for the others, I just can't stand it. So I'd see myself passing on Heavenly Strength for that reason as well.
  • #32

    Quote from Thornagol»
    I like the idea of it scaling with vitality. Crusaders already get a double bonus from Str (dps and armor), so vit increasing block chance/amount would allow for vit to help more for all classes equipping a shield.



    Aye, the more I think on it, the more I think it should be Vit... Maybe something as simple as

    "Heavenly Fortitude

    When using a 1h weapon your Vit is added to your shield block value"



    This way not only do Tanky Crusaders get a buff, but it also allows them to build tanky, while not having godawful damage. Their damage still wouldn't be anywhere near the level that a full Dps crusader can reach, but it wont be quite as bad as it is now :p.
  • #33
    Quote from Talyn_Rahl
    Quote from Thornagol» I like the idea of it scaling with vitality. Crusaders already get a double bonus from Str (dps and armor), so vit increasing block chance/amount would allow for vit to help more for all classes equipping a shield.


    Aye, the more I think on it, the more I think it should be Vit... Maybe something as simple as

    "Heavenly Fortitude

    When using a 1h weapon your Vit is added to your shield block value"



    This way not only do Tanky Crusaders get a buff, but it also allows them to build tanky, while not having godawful damage. Their damage still wouldn't be anywhere near the level that a full Dps crusader can reach, but it wont be quite as bad as it is now :p.

    I'd love if they added more of these types of skills that used non primary stats for each character. You get some oddball builds that may work if people gear for it.
  • #34
    Aye, they keep saying they want to increase build diversity and break the triumvirate with stats...



    How about using the passives to do that?
  • #35
    Blizzard has increased the speed reduction from 10% to 15% in last patch to make Heavenly strength less desirable.

    Prior to that, they made 2-handed weapons slightly faster to improve wrath generation in an attempt to make 2-handed weapons more desirable, although they lowered damage so the dps would be approximately the same. This improves wrath gen very slighly, but lowers damage output from skills that work off of weapon damage. They also tweaked stats on 2H weapons to make them a little better, but it doesn't look like the adjustments closed mcu of the gap: dual-wielders and main hand+off-hand are still better than using 2-handed weapons in all but a few special cases.

    They also reduced Akarrat's Champion cooldown from 120 seconds to 90 seconds. I think the direction they are going, they want you to take Akarrat's Champion and have it up for every fight, something that they are reducing with the other classes (WoTB for Barbarian, Archon for Wizard). This isn't helpful for build diversity, but that is the direction.

    With only a few more weeks before launch, it is looking like Crusaders aren't going to be a desirable class once the novelty wears off: Crusaders are either going to move slow (they are making the steed cooldown longer again) and do damage on par with other classes or will move at the same pace and do less damage until they get a very specific set of crusader gear and use Akarrat's Champion.
  • #36
    There's only one way to fix it:

    Make the movement speed penalty so severe that players need all the movement speed they can get from gear/paragon to even move at standard speed.
  • #37
    either that or instead of nerfing HS, make a 1h/shield passive, that is just as good. This way there is a choice for which you run with.
  • #38
    Quote from Talyn_Rahl

    either that or instead of nerfing HS, make a 1h/shield passive, that is just as good. This way there is a choice for which you run with.



    Both requiring a passive slot... (meaning builds are forced into only 3 passives).

    Honestly, I think more pairs sound have trade offs indeed if straight buffs (like keystones in POE).

    I think the easiest way to balance HS is to make you take more damage... reduce your shield block chance and amount by 20%'
  • #39
    I actually quite like that idea Sabvre... I think reduced Block chance in exchange for having a 2h seems a fair trade. Although I still think they should add a passive for 1h, something along the lines of "Your Block Value scales with your Str when using a 1h weapon"
  • #40
    What if they just eliminate Heavenly Strength?
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