Okay, here's some math. Please keep in mind that these skills might not - and probably don't - work together in the way that I'm hoping they do. Also, these buffs have a VERY tight window that might not be feasible to operate within.
Runed Super Saiyan - 75% increased damage
Runed Battle Rage - 100% increased damage
5 stacks of Runed Frenzy - 120% increased damage (assuming the buff applies not just to Frenzy)
8 stacks of Runed Bash - 80% increased damage
Total (assuming they add) - 375% increased damage
Runed Weapon Throw at 120 Fury (because of passive) - 1080% weapon damage
Possible additive crit chance from abilities - 24%
Critical hit damage bonus (because of passive) - 250% (maybe)
If a critical hit, that's 101250000% weapon damage in a 22 yard radius. Holy ****.
I'm just thinking it will be near difficult if not impossible to stack bash, then stack frenzy (4 secs until falloff) battle rage, pop super saiyan, then use runed corpse throw (at full rage for the biggest benefit) to reach that. Would be cool to see tho.
Imagine someone finding a broken build like this (that works) and 1-shotting Diablo at Inferno in a party of 4 people when he has like 980.100 HP Jayl Wilson will be mad..
Although by the time you have all the tip-top highest level runes, it probably means you've cleared Inferno a few hundred times already
375% increased damage from the buffs on top of a full fury throw at 1080% damage with a crit at 250%
You are multiplying the numbers:
375 * 1080 * 250 for your 1012500000% number. You cannot multiply these numbers that way.
First, the 1080% damage throw is probably additive with the 375% increased damage and not multiplicative, so you would have 1455% increased damage with a full fury throw (and not 405000% as your math indicates).
When performing calculations like this, the numbers are almost always guaranteed to be additive and not multiplicative. Even if they are multiplicative, you have to consider that they are percents, and need to be multiplied as such:
3.75 * 10.8 * 2.5 = 101.25 or 10125%
Even on a 100 damage normal swing, this would equate to 10,125 damage - much too high to be feasible. If it IS a potential boss killer combo because they are multiplicative, it is also likely a bug.
That said, the other posts point out other issues that I was going to delve into as well (fury generation, time limit, etc).
Way to think out of the box though! I love the attempt =)
Yeah, I was trying to multiply them. I figured since the Throw is %wep dmg and the others are straight up %dmg that they'd calculate one after the other instead of together.
Lol OK I realize I posted the same thing in the other thread but here's a much more realistic scenario with the math:
Frenzy 120% dmg
Bash 80% dmg
Battle Rage 100% dmg
Total of 300% dmg.
900% weapon dmg with a full Fury bar. No passive to boost max fury bar.
No Escape passive 100% dmg (multiplicative) to Weapon Throw (even with the rune modification)
Oh and if No Escape rewards you with Fury PER ENEMY KILLED, this 900% weapon dmg attack might be spammable...jesus christ Blizzard do I HAVE to play a barb?
EDIT: Also, using that weapon's atk speed of 1.18s as reference. Not even counting the armor. 1.18s*1.75 (from frenzy) = 2 attacks per second. Since we'll be trying to use Bash as much as possible, let's assume an average of 5 fury gained per hit.
Without even using any Fury generators, we're looking at 10 Fury generated PER SECOND. You'll be able to pop that 70k dmg explosion every 10 seconds at LEAST. This is essentially 7k DPS added onto your already ridiculous auto-atk dmg. I'm not even gonna theorycraft on that. Totally balanced.
The skills and runes are all also level 60 maxed out the highest you will ever see them, at the end of the day in inferno this won't be that big of a deal. Of course your math is retarded but the real math, 10,000% like best case scenario still isn't game breaking
I fail to see how you can stack up bash and frenzy at the same time.Also won't you be sacrificing all of your defense stats to get all that damage.My point is that even if u can stack up all that damage, the boss probably will one shot you
unless you are very well geared.
The quickest way to stack up both is probly hit 5 times with Frenzy, then hit as many times as allowed before Frenzy buff falls off with Bash. The atk speed works even if you don't use Frenzy, so you'll build the Bash charges that much faster. The whole process shouldn't take more than 6-7 seconds seeing how fast we attack. I'm playing with the skill builder as we speak and it seems that as long as you don't go for the MF runes, there's still space for defensive skills. I only used up 4/6 skill slots and 1/3 passives.
@Depress
The problem is that you can't get the same numbers with any other class right now. Barbs are always ahead of everyone in terms of the amount of +% dmg you can stack. I think the next highest is WD, who can only stack 160%. I'm really expecting Frenzy to be nerfed. There is no skill in this game that gives you that much atk speed AND a ridiculous 120% dmg boost at the same time.
You're multiplying things instead of adding them. That's not how the damage is going to work.
-Say you basic swing for 1,000. Now you get a source of + 100% weapon damage. Now you're basic swing will hit for 2,000.
-Say you have another source of +EDamage, 75%. Now your basic attack swing will hit for 2,750.
-Now say you have another source of +EDamage on top all that for 25%. Now your basic attack swing will probably hit for 3,000.
I hardly believe they're going to make them stack, it's more realistic to make them add. As for how skill multipliers work in *combination* with +%enhanced damage I'm not sure. There's a possibility the enhanced damage and skill enhanced weapon damage modifiers are two in the same and will work the same way, and there's a chance that skills modify your weapon damage as if it were your >Baseline or Core< damage. I know that in d2 (and MXL for d2) that enhance weapon damage and enhanced damage were two different stats.
Damage reduction % will probably work the opposite. Instead of two sources of 50% damage reduction making you immune, you will *probably* reduce damage by 50% once, and then reduce that damage by 50% again. IE, you get hit for a base value of 1,000. You reduce that to 500 with the first 50%, and reduce that to 250 with the second 50%.
All of this is just speculation but I have seen a lot of carryovers from wow/d2 so far in the core mechanics of diablo so I'd be surprised if it were far off. All I'm saying is you're not going to be seeing any 70,000 crits any time soon unless something is bugged.
Oh WAT they didn't buff it afterall from D2? Well then we can forget about the 80% dmg increase and still do an obscene amount!
If I'm understanding you correctly... it's also not an 80% damage increase from Frenzy. It's 80% weapon damage. That's like saying normal damage minus 20%. But the attack speed and rune effect and fury generation all add up to make it more viable than a normal attack.
Especially once you stack the massive %IAS with the ED%.. You'd be looking at a 175% attack speed 200% weapon damage attack that generates furry, probably near perfect for pvp burst builds. Since the fury gain is static it's worthwhile to continue using as you can after charging it up because you will be getting static gains faster.
You're multiplying things instead of adding them. That's not how the damage is going to work. There's a possibility the enhanced damage and skill enhanced weapon damage modifiers are two in the same and will work the same way, and there's a chance that skills modify your weapon damage as if it were your >Baseline or Core< damage. I know that in d2 (and MXL for d2) that enhance weapon damage and enhanced damage were two different stats.
Ok, so let's somehow assume that ALL of the +% dmg are additive, excluding +Attack stats because if that did, then there's no meaning to +%dmg. So we'll be look at this:
260*900%*(100%+300%+100%)*500%=58500. (I made a mistake in the original calculation) 60k dmg from a hit? No big deal still doing insane dmg.
Also let's assume that enhanced weapon dmg and enhanced dmg are 2 different stats, then Weapon Throw will only do:
260*900%*200%*500%=23400 dmg. To put that into perspective, here's how much Frenzy does per hit.
260*80%*(100%+300%)*500%=4160
Now that seems a little more balanced. So yes you may be right with how they're handling damage multipliers. But this is all speculation so we'll see how things work out at release.
EDIT: NOPE. I just had a beta tester test things out for me. Battle Rage at 30% increased dmg atm indeed increases ALL of your dmg by 30%, AFTER the +Attack calculation. Looks like it's multiplicative too, since it doesn't show up on your character's + Attack % dmg increase tab. It does show on your DPS though. Looks like +% dmg is an invisible stat that increases your overall dmg just like Attack.
Exactly. You're talking about an execute skill that dumps an entire fury bar instantly here. You don't have to worry too much if such an ability is indeed overpowered, if people are killing inferno bosses in one hit the rune will be changed. And that's the problem in the end, the golden rune for the execute effect. I'd imagine a build like this would deal obscene amount at the instant of impact after charging up to full, period. I mean we're not even factoring in the extra fury you could get from gear potentially.
Here's a thought though. I think +%enhanced damage will be the same as +attack %enhanced damage, the same way +crit % chance will be additive with precision and +crit% damage as well. I think the weapon damage modifier will stand separate from enhanced damage, but there's no guarantee. Assuming that's the way things are, let me throw some jr. high napkin math atcha.
You receive Imaginary Enhanced Damage % from
200% - from attack
100% - from battle rage
75% - from Wrath of the Berserker and
80% - from stacking Bash Punish
___________________________________
455% - Total enhanced damage %
Then you have Imaginary Enhanced WEAPON Damage % from
210% - Weapon Throw itself
1080% - Rune
___________________________________
1,290% - Total enhanced *weapon* damage
Let's say your weapon had an imaginary 200 static damage 200 weapon damage
+ 1,290% enhanced weapon damage
_____________________
2,780 damage
+455% enhanced damage
_____________________
12,264 total damage non crit
However if enhanced damage and enhanced weapon damage were the same thing... It wouldn't be close to that high, it'd be more like 3,682.
It may be worth noting, however that we've already seen what may have been a geared (hell/inferno? you know that gameplay video blizz has on their site of the barb equipping items in act 1 Skeleton King Area) barbarian only hit or critting HoTA for 500 damage. So these base figures we're putting out are actually probably way too high. That and looking at non scale abilities (which I can only guess barely scale if they scale >at all<) like monk heals and absorb flat damage amounts (diamond skin) range from 6.5k absorb to like a 12k heal, which is probably >near< a full heal if my guess is correct. It wouldn't make much sense if people could run around flinging 20,000 hits every 10 seconds.
tldr- either it will be overpowered and quickly fixed, or you're respecting it too much.
Did you see my edit from last post? I was testing it with a beta tester. It's confirmed now at least that the +% dmg increase from Battle Rage (30%) is multiplicative. So it looks like:
weapon dmg * % dmg increase from Attack * 130% = Hammer of the Ancients dmg
Honestly, it's not Weapon Throw that needs nerfing. We don't even know if other %dmg increase effects are additive or multiplicative, and even if they're only additive, this may still be wayyyy too OP.
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Okay, here's some math. Please keep in mind that these skills might not - and probably don't - work together in the way that I'm hoping they do. Also, these buffs have a VERY tight window that might not be feasible to operate within.
Runed Super Saiyan - 75% increased damage
Runed Battle Rage - 100% increased damage
5 stacks of Runed Frenzy - 120% increased damage (assuming the buff applies not just to Frenzy)
8 stacks of Runed Bash - 80% increased damage
Total (assuming they add) - 375% increased damage
Runed Weapon Throw at 120 Fury (because of passive) - 1080% weapon damage
Possible additive crit chance from abilities - 24%
Critical hit damage bonus (because of passive) - 250% (maybe)
If a critical hit, that's 101250000% weapon damage in a 22 yard radius. Holy ****.
Although by the time you have all the tip-top highest level runes, it probably means you've cleared Inferno a few hundred times already
375% increased damage from the buffs on top of a full fury throw at 1080% damage with a crit at 250%
You are multiplying the numbers:
375 * 1080 * 250 for your 1012500000% number. You cannot multiply these numbers that way.
First, the 1080% damage throw is probably additive with the 375% increased damage and not multiplicative, so you would have 1455% increased damage with a full fury throw (and not 405000% as your math indicates).
When performing calculations like this, the numbers are almost always guaranteed to be additive and not multiplicative. Even if they are multiplicative, you have to consider that they are percents, and need to be multiplied as such:
3.75 * 10.8 * 2.5 = 101.25 or 10125%
Even on a 100 damage normal swing, this would equate to 10,125 damage - much too high to be feasible. If it IS a potential boss killer combo because they are multiplicative, it is also likely a bug.
That said, the other posts point out other issues that I was going to delve into as well (fury generation, time limit, etc).
Way to think out of the box though! I love the attempt =)
Frenzy 120% dmg
Bash 80% dmg
Battle Rage 100% dmg
Total of 300% dmg.
900% weapon dmg with a full Fury bar. No passive to boost max fury bar.
No Escape passive 100% dmg (multiplicative) to Weapon Throw (even with the rune modification)
Let's assume this skill doesn't crit. Use the 2h Mighty Weapon from this screenshot as reference:
http://www.judgehype.com/screenshots/gamescom2011/confpressed3/18.jpg
Also assume we have 500 Attack, why? Because: http://www.judgehype.com/screenshots/gamescom2011/confpressed3/21.jpg
We'll pick the min weapon dmg, 260.
260*3*5*9*2=70200 dmg
Now that's a non-crit. If it crits, that's 175500 dmg. The barb in that screenshot has 8000 hp.
EDIT: Also, using that weapon's atk speed of 1.18s as reference. Not even counting the armor. 1.18s*1.75 (from frenzy) = 2 attacks per second. Since we'll be trying to use Bash as much as possible, let's assume an average of 5 fury gained per hit.
Without even using any Fury generators, we're looking at 10 Fury generated PER SECOND. You'll be able to pop that 70k dmg explosion every 10 seconds at LEAST. This is essentially 7k DPS added onto your already ridiculous auto-atk dmg. I'm not even gonna theorycraft on that. Totally balanced.
The quickest way to stack up both is probly hit 5 times with Frenzy, then hit as many times as allowed before Frenzy buff falls off with Bash. The atk speed works even if you don't use Frenzy, so you'll build the Bash charges that much faster. The whole process shouldn't take more than 6-7 seconds seeing how fast we attack. I'm playing with the skill builder as we speak and it seems that as long as you don't go for the MF runes, there's still space for defensive skills. I only used up 4/6 skill slots and 1/3 passives.
@Depress
The problem is that you can't get the same numbers with any other class right now. Barbs are always ahead of everyone in terms of the amount of +% dmg you can stack. I think the next highest is WD, who can only stack 160%. I'm really expecting Frenzy to be nerfed. There is no skill in this game that gives you that much atk speed AND a ridiculous 120% dmg boost at the same time.
Oh WAT they didn't buff it afterall from D2? Well then we can forget about the 80% dmg increase and still do an obscene amount!
-Say you basic swing for 1,000. Now you get a source of + 100% weapon damage. Now you're basic swing will hit for 2,000.
-Say you have another source of +EDamage, 75%. Now your basic attack swing will hit for 2,750.
-Now say you have another source of +EDamage on top all that for 25%. Now your basic attack swing will probably hit for 3,000.
I hardly believe they're going to make them stack, it's more realistic to make them add. As for how skill multipliers work in *combination* with +%enhanced damage I'm not sure. There's a possibility the enhanced damage and skill enhanced weapon damage modifiers are two in the same and will work the same way, and there's a chance that skills modify your weapon damage as if it were your >Baseline or Core< damage. I know that in d2 (and MXL for d2) that enhance weapon damage and enhanced damage were two different stats.
Damage reduction % will probably work the opposite. Instead of two sources of 50% damage reduction making you immune, you will *probably* reduce damage by 50% once, and then reduce that damage by 50% again. IE, you get hit for a base value of 1,000. You reduce that to 500 with the first 50%, and reduce that to 250 with the second 50%.
All of this is just speculation but I have seen a lot of carryovers from wow/d2 so far in the core mechanics of diablo so I'd be surprised if it were far off. All I'm saying is you're not going to be seeing any 70,000 crits any time soon unless something is bugged.
Ok, so let's somehow assume that ALL of the +% dmg are additive, excluding +Attack stats because if that did, then there's no meaning to +%dmg. So we'll be look at this:
260*900%*(100%+300%+100%)*500%=58500. (I made a mistake in the original calculation) 60k dmg from a hit? No big deal still doing insane dmg.
Also let's assume that enhanced weapon dmg and enhanced dmg are 2 different stats, then Weapon Throw will only do:
260*900%*200%*500%=23400 dmg. To put that into perspective, here's how much Frenzy does per hit.
260*80%*(100%+300%)*500%=4160
Now that seems a little more balanced. So yes you may be right with how they're handling damage multipliers. But this is all speculation so we'll see how things work out at release.
EDIT: NOPE. I just had a beta tester test things out for me. Battle Rage at 30% increased dmg atm indeed increases ALL of your dmg by 30%, AFTER the +Attack calculation. Looks like it's multiplicative too, since it doesn't show up on your character's + Attack % dmg increase tab. It does show on your DPS though. Looks like +% dmg is an invisible stat that increases your overall dmg just like Attack.
Here's a thought though. I think +%enhanced damage will be the same as +attack %enhanced damage, the same way +crit % chance will be additive with precision and +crit% damage as well. I think the weapon damage modifier will stand separate from enhanced damage, but there's no guarantee. Assuming that's the way things are, let me throw some jr. high napkin math atcha.
You receive Imaginary Enhanced Damage % from
200% - from attack
100% - from battle rage
75% - from Wrath of the Berserker and
80% - from stacking Bash Punish
___________________________________
455% - Total enhanced damage %
Then you have Imaginary Enhanced WEAPON Damage % from
210% - Weapon Throw itself
1080% - Rune
___________________________________
1,290% - Total enhanced *weapon* damage
Let's say your weapon had an imaginary 200 static damage
200 weapon damage
+ 1,290% enhanced weapon damage
_____________________
2,780 damage
+455% enhanced damage
_____________________
12,264 total damage non crit
However if enhanced damage and enhanced weapon damage were the same thing... It wouldn't be close to that high, it'd be more like 3,682.
It may be worth noting, however that we've already seen what may have been a geared (hell/inferno? you know that gameplay video blizz has on their site of the barb equipping items in act 1 Skeleton King Area) barbarian only hit or critting HoTA for 500 damage. So these base figures we're putting out are actually probably way too high. That and looking at non scale abilities (which I can only guess barely scale if they scale >at all<) like monk heals and absorb flat damage amounts (diamond skin) range from 6.5k absorb to like a 12k heal, which is probably >near< a full heal if my guess is correct. It wouldn't make much sense if people could run around flinging 20,000 hits every 10 seconds.
tldr- either it will be overpowered and quickly fixed, or you're respecting it too much.
weapon dmg * % dmg increase from Attack * 130% = Hammer of the Ancients dmg
Honestly, it's not Weapon Throw that needs nerfing. We don't even know if other %dmg increase effects are additive or multiplicative, and even if they're only additive, this may still be wayyyy too OP.