I tried D3 again for a few hours, and as you probably know from my post history, I am not amused.
D3 is undergonig many changes, and from the reactions in the forums I see that you guys seem to like it. Personally, I was a huge fan of D2 and played it for nearly a decade, but I just cant enjoy D3 as much. I had to think quite a bit about why this is, after I wasted probably 1000s of hours in D2.
The thing that D2 did correctly was giving the players freedom. D3 is IMO focusing way too much on the item hunt. Looking back I realise that the item hunt was a quite small part of D2. The important thing came after the item hunt. Pvp leagues, races, HC races with pvp enabled, strange challenges for new chars etc. I spent 50 hours playing trough the game on my first char, and then 9 years playing everything that the community came up with.
Now D3 is a better looking game. It is less buggy. It has a better feel to it, combat just feels amazing. The servers are way less laggy ( which I only realised this year after going back to D2 for a bit. Wow those servers are shite... ). It has superior comfort functions. I like reskilling ( and also the built in trading tool that was the scapegoat and got shafted ). The game just does not give enugh freedom to the community to become as creative as it was with D2.
I wonder if the game designers think that we are farmbots. I get the idea that we are supposed to do nothing but farming. Yes, it is a part of the game, but not all of it ffs! There was way more to D2 than farming. You did the farming till you had the gear needed to do what you actually wanted to do. In D3, what can you do with your gear? Farm 0.25% more efficient? Big hip hip hurray...
Same with this selffound idea... It just removes flexibility. In D2 you also had to start by playing the game and building up a certain set of valuables. But then you were able to try new builds (requiring an item maybe) when you wanted, and not when the RNG gods decided to give you that required item.
And then the gameplay changes. Who thought that it would be a good idea to make combat slower and spread out more unavoidable damage to force you to invest more into defensive stats? Where is the fun in that? The combat should be flashy, fast paced, action filled. The fun things in combat are the big crit numbers, not knowing that you now absorbed 50% of the poison damage of the slime you stand in and that with only 25% absorbtion you would now be dead. IMO ALL area damage should be avoidable, that way at least you reward dodging skill. Which was pretty much the only aspect of the combat mechanics that required some skill.
Well, I am ranting. The thign is I dont enjoy the game any more. Have not for a while, and the direction this game is going only makes it worse. I have been a part of this forum for a while, and if I ever get interested in the game again, I will come back. But for now I am not even tempted to buy RoS.
I hope you guys enjoy it though May the item hunt keep you entertained for a long time.
I think people change their game habits over the years. What we may have enjoyed year ago, may not be the same today. May I suggest however one thing. If you "wasted 1000s hours" playing a game, then why play it? What we do with our time, should never be a waste, but a choice.
That said, it's always good reading the other side of the story on a game. Can't make one game happy for everyone. D3:2.0 has been a 180 from D3's launch.
If you "wasted 1000s hours" playing a game, then why play it? What we do with our time, should never be a waste, but a choice.
Oh, no, I did not mean it that way. I clearly enjoyed wasting all that time And if you enjoy it, it's not really a waste. I dont regret it at all I also played 250+ hours of D3 (mainly before patch 1.3) and enjoyed that too
And yes, people and playing habits certainly change. When I started with D2 in 2000, I was a rebellious teenager. Those times are long over ^^
Whether or not I agree, I do respect your opinions. I do however take offense with blanket statements about WHAT Diablo is SUPPOSED to be. If you're talking about yourself personally, fine, but when you try to encompass the entire majority with little more than anecdotal evidence, it just doesn't hold water.
1. If PVP and SC / HC ladder races is what you liked, awesome. But I have just as much 'evidence' that the item hunt was a bigger part of D2 for many than those.
2. You mention that In D2, there was "Way more to do than farming", but you don't actually give any examples that don't also exist in D3. D2 ladders were still farming, except it was for XP and not so much items. But hey, at RoS launch if there isn't ladders, then you are correct for the time being; there's nothing to do but farm. However the difference is, I'm 100% confident we will see additional content that acts as a goal WITH your farmed gear, whether that's leaderboards, challenges and / or ladders.
3. I'm not really sure what the complaint is here about the self found that you mentioned. Do you just not like having the ability to buy your gear? Because in D2, if you didn't buy off of 3rd party sites, you were ALSO at the mercy of the 'rng gods', because if you didn't get good drops to trade, then you couldn't acquire the gear needed for your build.
4. We'll just have to completely agree to disagree when it comes to the newer combat pacing. I find that having no reason whatsoever to acquire any toughness / survive-ability on your gear and facerolling the highest difficulty is utterly boring. I personally love the combat changes. It's far less 'stand in everything and smash buttons', and more 'move around the field, avoid damage when you can and smash buttons'.
But in the end, it's still sad to see a player go. I wish you luck, and hopefully you'll be back one day.
I do however take offense with blanket statements about WHAT Diablo is SUPPOSED to be. If you're talking about yourself personally
3. if you didn't buy off of 3rd party sites, you were ALSO at the mercy of the 'rng gods', because if you didn't get good drops to trade, then you couldn't acquire the gear needed for your build.
Yeah maybe my wording was a bit off. I am of course stating my opinions.
3 : yes, what you describe is the situation I also had in D3. You need to get a few good drops first to build up some value. But in a few hundred hours of game time, everybody will find something of some value. Even if its not for the class you play, it still has value and will indirectly bring you an item you are looking for ( via trade ).
What I am complaining about is that with selffound as it is forced now, you can play 1000's of hours and just be unlucky and never get the item you need for the build you have in mind. Which is a huge turnoff for me. Or imagine needing a set bonus for a build and that 5th set part just does not drop. I love playing around with new builds and experimenting and hate the idea that you have to wait for that specific lucky drop.
I do however take offense with blanket statements about WHAT Diablo is SUPPOSED to be. If you're talking about yourself personally
3. if you didn't buy off of 3rd party sites, you were ALSO at the mercy of the 'rng gods', because if you didn't get good drops to trade, then you couldn't acquire the gear needed for your build.
Yeah maybe my wording was a bit off. I am of course stating my opinions.
3 : yes, what you describe is the situation I also had in D3. You need to get a few good drops first to build up some value. But in a few hundred hours of game time, everybody will find something of some value. Even if its not for the class you play, it still has value and will indirectly bring you an item you are looking for ( via trade ).
What I am complaining about is that with selffound as it is forced now, you can play 1000's of hours and just be unlucky and never get the item you need for the build you have in mind. Which is a huge turnoff for me. Or imagine needing a set bonus for a build and that 5th set part just does not drop. I love playing around with new builds and experimenting and hate the idea that you have to wait for that specific lucky drop.
I won't say that isn't a valid concern - but what you're asking for is near - instant gratification, and in a grindy game like D3, I personally think that's bad.
And then the gameplay changes. Who thought that it would be a good idea to make combat slower and spread out more unavoidable damage to force you to invest more into defensive stats? Where is the fun in that? The combat should be flashy, fast paced, action filled. The fun things in combat are the big crit numbers, not knowing that you now absorbed 50% of the poison damage of the slime you stand in and that with only 25% absorbtion you would now be dead. IMO ALL area damage should be avoidable, that way at least you reward dodging skill. Which was pretty much the only aspect of the combat mechanics that required some skill.
I wanted to address this point in particular.
If *all* damage is avoidable then you go back to people profiting from glass cannon builds and that's just not going to fly because it means latency is your #1 stat. If you have higher than average latency you can't use a glass cannon build and, therefore, you are a suboptimal player. That seems highly punitive for something that's almost always out of the players control.
Having some investment in defensive stats is awesome. Shortly into 2.0.1 I found a ring that was a very minor DPS upgrade but it was a massive toughness/healing upgrade. I didn't get emo and slash my wrists while moaning "this item sucks because it doesn't make me do 78 million damage." Quite the opposite, in fact, I found myself happy that I picked up quite a bit of toughness/healing in one item and, therefore, might be able to focus on damage in other slots.
The gameplay that has resulted from removing life leech (I didn't have a super-awesome 1.x weapon, so I am now using a sword that doesn't have LL) is great. You are rewarded for not standing in shit, but god forbid you do stand in something you're not instagibbed. That's how it should be. In order for it to be like that you simply can't avoid every bit of damage. This is very close to incoming tank damage issues they've had over the years in WoW. If you have enough dodge + parry to avoid 85% of hits, then those 15% that do hit have to hit REALLY FUCKING HARD. Whereas if you only have enough dodge + parry to avoid 35% of the hits, the 65% that hit you can hit you significantly softer since they're hitting more than 4x as much. The problem with 85% avoidance is that it doesn't prevent you from getting hit twice in a row... and dying. And dying because the mob has super-high damage (because you have super-high avoidance), but because in that moment the RNG gods didn't smile on you is amazingly frustrating.
If stuff like jailer and vortex have minor damage components to them then that allows them to make some of the other affixes less likely to one-shot you. It's just a logical tradeoff and one that NEEDED to occur.
I rips the game to absolute bloody shreds on the official forums, but how they changed to feel of fighting (from early D3 to what we have now) I think was spot on. but its a personal preference.
Diablo 3 has such immaculate character control I feel that it can get away with a more clunky/ slower/ methodical type of combat than most games, and still feel great doing it
Much of D2's appeal to many players was it's 'wild west' online presentation. The lack of rules and oversight. The lack of DRM integrity. If an online game launched these days with the same sort of chaotic online structure, it would likely fail. D2 launched back in an era before many homes even had internet, or PC's for that matter. Software companies didn't understand nor appreciate how much a popular online game could be ravaged by nonchalant players and 3rd party bottom-feeders.
Much of that chaos was fun, I admit. But nowadays, a major online game IS going to have some presence of a DRM strategy. I hope more people start appreciating D3 for what it is and cease sneering at it for what it isn't.
If *all* damage is avoidable then you go back to people profiting from glass cannon builds and that's just not going to fly because it means latency is your #1 stat. If you have higher than average latency you can't use a glass cannon build and, therefore, you are a suboptimal player. That seems highly punitive for something that's almost always out of the players control.
I love this paragraph. Wonderfully well said.
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D3 is undergonig many changes, and from the reactions in the forums I see that you guys seem to like it. Personally, I was a huge fan of D2 and played it for nearly a decade, but I just cant enjoy D3 as much. I had to think quite a bit about why this is, after I wasted probably 1000s of hours in D2.
The thing that D2 did correctly was giving the players freedom. D3 is IMO focusing way too much on the item hunt. Looking back I realise that the item hunt was a quite small part of D2. The important thing came after the item hunt. Pvp leagues, races, HC races with pvp enabled, strange challenges for new chars etc. I spent 50 hours playing trough the game on my first char, and then 9 years playing everything that the community came up with.
Now D3 is a better looking game. It is less buggy. It has a better feel to it, combat just feels amazing. The servers are way less laggy ( which I only realised this year after going back to D2 for a bit. Wow those servers are shite... ). It has superior comfort functions. I like reskilling ( and also the built in trading tool that was the scapegoat and got shafted ). The game just does not give enugh freedom to the community to become as creative as it was with D2.
I wonder if the game designers think that we are farmbots. I get the idea that we are supposed to do nothing but farming. Yes, it is a part of the game, but not all of it ffs! There was way more to D2 than farming. You did the farming till you had the gear needed to do what you actually wanted to do. In D3, what can you do with your gear? Farm 0.25% more efficient? Big hip hip hurray...
Same with this selffound idea... It just removes flexibility. In D2 you also had to start by playing the game and building up a certain set of valuables. But then you were able to try new builds (requiring an item maybe) when you wanted, and not when the RNG gods decided to give you that required item.
And then the gameplay changes. Who thought that it would be a good idea to make combat slower and spread out more unavoidable damage to force you to invest more into defensive stats? Where is the fun in that? The combat should be flashy, fast paced, action filled. The fun things in combat are the big crit numbers, not knowing that you now absorbed 50% of the poison damage of the slime you stand in and that with only 25% absorbtion you would now be dead. IMO ALL area damage should be avoidable, that way at least you reward dodging skill. Which was pretty much the only aspect of the combat mechanics that required some skill.
Well, I am ranting. The thign is I dont enjoy the game any more. Have not for a while, and the direction this game is going only makes it worse. I have been a part of this forum for a while, and if I ever get interested in the game again, I will come back. But for now I am not even tempted to buy RoS.
I hope you guys enjoy it though May the item hunt keep you entertained for a long time.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
That said, it's always good reading the other side of the story on a game. Can't make one game happy for everyone. D3:2.0 has been a 180 from D3's launch.
Have fun with whatever games perk your interest.
And yes, people and playing habits certainly change. When I started with D2 in 2000, I was a rebellious teenager. Those times are long over ^^
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
1. If PVP and SC / HC ladder races is what you liked, awesome. But I have just as much 'evidence' that the item hunt was a bigger part of D2 for many than those.
2. You mention that In D2, there was "Way more to do than farming", but you don't actually give any examples that don't also exist in D3. D2 ladders were still farming, except it was for XP and not so much items. But hey, at RoS launch if there isn't ladders, then you are correct for the time being; there's nothing to do but farm. However the difference is, I'm 100% confident we will see additional content that acts as a goal WITH your farmed gear, whether that's leaderboards, challenges and / or ladders.
3. I'm not really sure what the complaint is here about the self found that you mentioned. Do you just not like having the ability to buy your gear? Because in D2, if you didn't buy off of 3rd party sites, you were ALSO at the mercy of the 'rng gods', because if you didn't get good drops to trade, then you couldn't acquire the gear needed for your build.
4. We'll just have to completely agree to disagree when it comes to the newer combat pacing. I find that having no reason whatsoever to acquire any toughness / survive-ability on your gear and facerolling the highest difficulty is utterly boring. I personally love the combat changes. It's far less 'stand in everything and smash buttons', and more 'move around the field, avoid damage when you can and smash buttons'.
But in the end, it's still sad to see a player go. I wish you luck, and hopefully you'll be back one day.
3 : yes, what you describe is the situation I also had in D3. You need to get a few good drops first to build up some value. But in a few hundred hours of game time, everybody will find something of some value. Even if its not for the class you play, it still has value and will indirectly bring you an item you are looking for ( via trade ).
What I am complaining about is that with selffound as it is forced now, you can play 1000's of hours and just be unlucky and never get the item you need for the build you have in mind. Which is a huge turnoff for me. Or imagine needing a set bonus for a build and that 5th set part just does not drop. I love playing around with new builds and experimenting and hate the idea that you have to wait for that specific lucky drop.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
If *all* damage is avoidable then you go back to people profiting from glass cannon builds and that's just not going to fly because it means latency is your #1 stat. If you have higher than average latency you can't use a glass cannon build and, therefore, you are a suboptimal player. That seems highly punitive for something that's almost always out of the players control.
Having some investment in defensive stats is awesome. Shortly into 2.0.1 I found a ring that was a very minor DPS upgrade but it was a massive toughness/healing upgrade. I didn't get emo and slash my wrists while moaning "this item sucks because it doesn't make me do 78 million damage." Quite the opposite, in fact, I found myself happy that I picked up quite a bit of toughness/healing in one item and, therefore, might be able to focus on damage in other slots.
The gameplay that has resulted from removing life leech (I didn't have a super-awesome 1.x weapon, so I am now using a sword that doesn't have LL) is great. You are rewarded for not standing in shit, but god forbid you do stand in something you're not instagibbed. That's how it should be. In order for it to be like that you simply can't avoid every bit of damage. This is very close to incoming tank damage issues they've had over the years in WoW. If you have enough dodge + parry to avoid 85% of hits, then those 15% that do hit have to hit REALLY FUCKING HARD. Whereas if you only have enough dodge + parry to avoid 35% of the hits, the 65% that hit you can hit you significantly softer since they're hitting more than 4x as much. The problem with 85% avoidance is that it doesn't prevent you from getting hit twice in a row... and dying. And dying because the mob has super-high damage (because you have super-high avoidance), but because in that moment the RNG gods didn't smile on you is amazingly frustrating.
If stuff like jailer and vortex have minor damage components to them then that allows them to make some of the other affixes less likely to one-shot you. It's just a logical tradeoff and one that NEEDED to occur.
Diablo 3 has such immaculate character control I feel that it can get away with a more clunky/ slower/ methodical type of combat than most games, and still feel great doing it
Much of D2's appeal to many players was it's 'wild west' online presentation. The lack of rules and oversight. The lack of DRM integrity. If an online game launched these days with the same sort of chaotic online structure, it would likely fail. D2 launched back in an era before many homes even had internet, or PC's for that matter. Software companies didn't understand nor appreciate how much a popular online game could be ravaged by nonchalant players and 3rd party bottom-feeders.
Much of that chaos was fun, I admit. But nowadays, a major online game IS going to have some presence of a DRM strategy. I hope more people start appreciating D3 for what it is and cease sneering at it for what it isn't.
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