Its not hard to tweak and fix the games current vanilla state. Among other things.
I think the problem stems from its community too.
The majority of the D3 community is filled with the dumbest most whiney players I have ever seen. Sometime I wonder if that's the problem.
I mean, for example:
-You got people begging for a ladder while the other half is complaining how stupid ladders are and how it would ruin everything.
-You got people begging for TDM and other pvp modes while the other half is crying about how PVP is stupid in ARPG.
-You got people begging for skill trees awhile the other half claims that theres no point for skill trees.
-You got people begging for some sort of nerf/cap to crit while others claim that those people are just poor/jealous.
I mean as a game dev you could be left running around in circles not knowing what to think. They need someone in charge, I mean really in charge with a firm grasp on the entire diablo/arpg style of game.
Its really sad who long and few the patches have been. When compared to Path of Exile its rather mind blowing.
I guess everyone here got more play time from D3 compared to most subscription free games. So stop expecting this game to get free content and updates like a subscription based game.
Oh please.... Path of exile is a Free to Play game run by a shanty town of people that gets constant updates. POE in early closed beta had more depth and content than Diablo 3 had on release. And POE still releases new content. And BTW, its non subscription durrhHHP.
I mean hell, Diablo 3 had more content prior to release.. Skill trees, mystics, runes and TDM.. D3 promised TDM and never brought it to light for simply NO REASON at all.
D2 don't have stuff that D3 have. It is really a matter of opinion. I don't want skill trees or TDM and I don't miss runes in particular.
.
But the majority of players do or did...till they gave up.. TMD was promised and never given due to the fact "They got bored and it wasn't fun". I fail to see that as a logical reason. Mainly because this was shown off and people loved it.
Also skill trees/stats is what makes builds actually builds. This is why people made NEW characters in D2. There really is no reason to make new characters in D3 when you can simply swap skills with the same gear and still be effective.
Its all about depth. And really there is no depth in D3. Its fun game to play because of its combat mechanics but its no where near the monster D2 was and that's sad.
At the end of the day, people expected a lot more. Blizzard seems to have been stringing people along with false hope instead of blowing their minds and shutting them up. Their main focus always seems to be the AH and console version.
And when did this whole mentality of "I'm bored after 600 hours... this game sucks!!" begin?
For every ONE thing that made D2 fun that was removed in D3 people will be upset. For everything WOW that was added to D3 people are upset.
To many people with to many opinions.. Is the problem.
I would have loved to have this game more inline with D2. I think D2 was just so much more fun simply because they didn't really care to much about what certain people thought. They new what 'they' wanted and simply went for it.
I mean, waiting almost a year for an ID all options is a bit mind blowing to say the least.
People are angry because they see the games potential being constantly ignored or delayed.
It's all fine to have opinions V, you're free to share them like everyone else does on this forum. But don't make bold statements like "the majority of people wanted this", because neither you, nor me, know what the majority wants. Do you think you know a million people, personally? Do you think you've read a million people's opinions on the internet regarding D3?
I bet 80% of people that bought D3 don't even have an opinion. They're the people that would just buy a game and play it and perhaps move on to something else. Which is apparent by the "3 million active users a month" that Jay Wilson mentioned. If you think you've seen 100 people that state "I want stats and skill points back" and just 2 that do not, you have no idea what the majority actually wants. The mere fact people are on official or fan forums means they're not part of the majority. They're part of the hardcore audience, which is minuscule.
And with that I return to my original argument, that you might've already forgotten, which is: it's fine to have an opinion, but don't state at as a fact or make sweeping generalizations.
I agree that D3 have a lot of issues and it was released broken... And is still broken. And it should be fixed ASAP. BUT... People still expect too much IMHO. Sure, what considered broken should be fixed for free. But I still think many of us expect Blizzard to deliver content that matches what a subscription based game would get.
But remember - the RMAH was supposed to help fund constant development to D3. We scratch their back by selling things on the RMAH and they scratch ours by giving us more things to find.......to sell on the RMAH.
One of the things that skill trees gave to D2 and a lot of players forget when they compare it to the current D3 system, is the skill progression. You actually see how the skill evolves into something visually and mathematically more powerful. Let say charged bold, it was amazing to add points there and see how much charged bolts (and how fast) you casted it to a point that the entire screen was covered by it. That skill progression feeling is gone in D3. And IMO, is a big -.
It's all fine to have opinions V, you're free to share them like everyone else does on this forum. But don't make bold statements like "the majority of people wanted this", because neither you, nor me, know what the majority wants.
Bold statement? Hell, that's the truth and im sure we all pretty much know this.
People wanted skill trees. A core game mechanic of ARPG and Diablo as a whole. They wanted to build actual characters.
Its easy to prove... How much theory crafting and actual guides to builds things exist in D3?
Now we have a mains with a budget instead of builds/guides. Which does indeed hurt the long term life of this game.
I mean, once you level up one class theres no reason do that again unless you would prefer a sex change. Hence people begging for account wide paragon status.
No skill tree = No builds = No Reason to make new character. Which is the basic reason of ARPG.
It's all fine to have opinions V, you're free to share them like everyone else does on this forum. But don't make bold statements like "the majority of people wanted this", because neither you, nor me, know what the majority wants.
Bold statement? Hell, that's the truth and im sure we all pretty much know this.
People wanted skill trees. A core game mechanic of ARPG and Diablo as a whole. They wanted to build actual characters.
Its easy to prove... How much theory crafting and actual guides to builds things exist in D3?
Now we have a mains with a budget instead of builds/guides. Which does indeed hurt the long term life of this game.
I mean, once you level up one class theres no reason do that again unless you would prefer a sex change. Hence people begging for account wide paragon status.
No skill tree = No builds = No Reason to make new character. Which is the basic reason of ARPG.
I didn't want skill trees. I just wanted a vast, dynamic and inspired itemization template. We're like 13 months in and they just told us it's going to be at least 6-10 months before that happens. What gets me is that they had time to create a console version before they fixed the staple of the Diablo platform, the PC release. I find that insulting.
It's all fine to have opinions V, you're free to share them like everyone else does on this forum. But don't make bold statements like "the majority of people wanted this", because neither you, nor me, know what the majority wants.
Bold statement? Hell, that's the truth and im sure we all pretty much know this.
People wanted skill trees. A core game mechanic of ARPG and Diablo as a whole. They wanted to build actual characters.
Its easy to prove... How much theory crafting and actual guides to builds things exist in D3?
Now we have a mains with a budget instead of builds/guides. Which does indeed hurt the long term life of this game.
I mean, once you level up one class theres no reason do that again unless you would prefer a sex change. Hence people begging for account wide paragon status.
No skill tree = No builds = No Reason to make new character. Which is the basic reason of ARPG.
I didn't want skill trees. I just wanted a vast, dynamic and inspired itemization template. We're like 13 months in and they just told us it's going to be at least 6-10 months before that happens. What gets me is that they had time to create a console version before they fixed the staple of the Diablo platform, the PC release. I find that insulting.
While I agree with the latter part of the post skill trees where needed for the sake of making new characters.
Its a reason why D2 was so much fun for so long. If I could just make one main in D2 with access to all skills boredom would have settled in a lot quicker.
In D3 I could have one character and I can swap skils at any time. That's like a years worth of playing gone in seconds..
Skill trees meant builds. D3 has no actual builds really. Which when you think about it is what RPGS are all about. Builds. Its not about loot only.
In D2 a few drops could inspire you to make a new build.
If I could just make one main in D2 with access to all skills boredom would have settled in a lot quicker.
I think this is exactly what Overneathe (and Ruksak) were at least attempting to point out to you.
NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time. In fact, if it were a fact that people by and large did enjoy that, then Blizzard never would have touched that particular aspect of the game. But they did have lots of feedback and that feedback led them to believe that the majority of the players really didn't like that paradigm, so they changed it.
Just because YOU find it fun doesn't mean that EVERYONE finds it fun. I know I hated the fuck out of rerolling to be able to spend talent points in a different manner. I loathed it. The moment I started playing WoW I realized how much of a waste of my time it was to have to start a new Necromancer just to try out some different skills. It was like an epiphany when I realized just how much I had been wasting my time.
Besides, if EVERYONE wanted a game whereby you had to reroll to "reset" your character then PoE would surely have taken off by now since that's one of it's biggest features. Alas, PoE has even bigger playerbase issues than D3 has ever had. That should tell you that people who want a tough-as-nails hardcore experience are a minority.
There is actually evidence to suggest that MOST PEOPLE didn't actually like having to reroll their toons to try out new abilities. I'm not going to go so far as to say that's a fact, but there definitely is evidence that points to that particular conclusion.
I really wish people like you would stop acting like everything D2 did was perfect. We know, for a fact, that many people hated the fact that you couldn't "respec" your toon in D2. Why do we know that? Because eventually D2 added that feature. The fact that they implemented it means they had to have received quite a bit of feedback on the subject that pointed to the general dissatisfaction level. You can ignore this all you like, you can tell us how integral you feel it is to the ARPG genre, but it's pretty obvious that your opinion on the subject DOES NOT represent the majority.
Like I said... if being forced to reroll a new character to "respec" is something you feel is absolutely necessary then, please, vote with your actions and go play PoE. Show Blizzard. But, honestly, if everyone who felt that were the case left D3 today I'm betting it wouldn't even register on the "population" map because I sincerely doubt that anyone believes that feature is anywhere close to that important.
I could be wrong, though, and I urge everyone who thinks my hypothesis is wrong to put it to the test.
If I could just make one main in D2 with access to all skills boredom would have settled in a lot quicker.
I think this is exactly what Overneathe (and Ruksak) were at least attempting to point out to you.
NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time. In fact, if it were a fact that people by and large did enjoy that, then Blizzard never would have touched that particular aspect of the game. But they did have lots of feedback and that feedback led them to believe that the majority of the players really didn't like that paradigm, so they changed it.
Feedback by the wrong people and it was clear that they also had the wrong person for the job. If you believe this change is for the better I would say you see take into account the amount of copies of D3 sold to the people still playing.
You say "NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time" Then I say why in the world you play an ARPG in the 1st place? To flip items on an AH? Why do you think there so much anger toward D3 with flocks of players looking for that next ARPG to quench their thirst for building charcters.
No one forced you to make new 'characters' in D2.. This was something RPG fans did because that's the point of playing. The sole purpose it so build a character and commit to it.
What is left in D3? Besides getting enough crit on gear to face roll MP 10?
Simply put, if they hired the right person for the job then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I would love a skill tree just so I could actually build a build.
Besides, if EVERYONE wanted a game whereby you had to reroll to "reset" your character then PoE would surely have taken off by now since that's one of it's biggest features. Alas, PoE has even bigger playerbase issues than D3 has ever had. That should tell you that people who want a tough-as-nails hardcore experience are a minority.
Maybe you should go check the actual player base of POE before assuming anything. There new ladder season has well over 20000 players playing.
POE may have more issue buts that clearly because POE has more depth and choice.
POE is by all standards a better RPG then Diablo 3. If only they had the budget and resources and man power of blizzard POE would probably be the best ARPG of all time.
D3 is fun.. Its combat system is top notch. But, theres no RPG elements in it the game at all really.
I really wish people like you would stop acting like everything D2 did was perfect. We know, for a fact, that many people hated the fact that you couldn't "respec" your toon in D2. Why do we know that? Because eventually D2 added that feature. The fact that they implemented it means they had to have received quite a bit of feedback on the subject that pointed to the general dissatisfaction level.
Fact is D2 got worse over times.. Enigmas anyone?
Anyways, Respecs where bad, but atleast it wasn't instant respecs at anytime.. Which D3 did infact get wrong.
Besides, look at the mountain of things D2 got right. Skill trees, stats, amazing itemization, dueling, pking, much bigger randomized areas. I mean, D2 is a legendary game.
I could be wrong, though, and I urge everyone who thinks my hypothesis is wrong to put it to the test.
Well written and, in my opinion, good arguments. But if we take a step back, I think it's obvious that Blizzard should cater to both the casual and "hardcore" tastes. They have compromised this on the altar of streamlined UIs, and we are left with unrealized potential for those of us who would like the time sink to go on for years. D3 has an endgame, and I think it's quite good as evidenced by my total playtime (well over a 1000 hours). But it's not brilliant.
I think rerolling characters, much like paragon 100 race and minmaxing stats for diabloprogress rankings, is superficial ways of handling infinity endgame. The itemization patch seems like a better idea, in so far as you can farm for items to create fun builds in stead of simply playing through the game again. Of course, that presupposes a form of BoA, so that BiS (or best for build) is not possible to get on AH. Additionally, I would like endless dungeon system where you have to activate it similar to uberbosses (so that it won't simply replace normal farming). PvP could also work, though personally I'd prefer moba games.
This would greatly improve the end-game, but alas, it seems to be dreams for the distant future.
It's all fine to have opinions V, you're free to share them like everyone else does on this forum. But don't make bold statements like "the majority of people wanted this", because neither you, nor me, know what the majority wants. Do you think you know a million people, personally? Do you think you've read a million people's opinions on the internet regarding D3?
I bet 80% of people that bought D3 don't even have an opinion. They're the people that would just buy a game and play it and perhaps move on to something else. Which is apparent by the "3 million active users a month" that Jay Wilson mentioned. If you think you've seen 100 people that state "I want stats and skill points back" and just 2 that do not, you have no idea what the majority actually wants. The mere fact people are on official or fan forums means they're not part of the majority. They're part of the hardcore audience, which is minuscule.
And with that I return to my original argument, that you might've already forgotten, which is: it's fine to have an opinion, but don't state at as a fact or make sweeping generalizations.
I think you're mixing up different issues here, VTurth.
1) "Skill trees that lets you create a build": You can create a build in every game, regardless whether it's a "tree" or just a "list" or whatever. The only thing that a tree as in D2 entails is that it comes with dependencies - to get to your final spell that accounted for 90% of your build's damage, you needed to waste 1 point in some useless skills that you would never touch at all. And you had to level up by using these weak skills with only 1 point in them. The fact that it has a tree with useless and sometimes annoying dependencies does not make anything better compared to the list or a rune system as it's implemented now. Hell, I CURSED the WoW warlock skill tree a million times since there was only 1 point missing to combine to super awesome nice skills that could've made up for a perfect synergy. It's like being offered the treasure at the end of a rainbow - but you'll never get it. An endless prank.
2) "Skill trees were better because you need to re-level a character": As shaggy so brilliantly outlined, D2 added re-spec for a reason. For a damn good reason. Blizzard does not listen to the wrong people, they're an outstanding example for a company who knows very well what's going on in their player's heads. Keep in mind that many many many of the casual players never even visit forums, so it's obvious you don't see their opinion. And whether you like casual players or not - Diablo 3 is not supposed to be some "1337 hardcore player game, screw the n00bs". There are casual players, and they have a right to play the game just as you do. Re-spec was removed for a damn good reason and although there is lots of discussion about things that went wrong in D3, the return of "fixed specs" is not among any of the major points on any player's wishlist we have ever seen. If you think it should be, you're free to go on the official forums and create a petition to re-introduce "fixed specs". But be warned, you might not like the outcome.
3) Please stop comparing D3 and PoE. We've had that discussion a hundred times, and as much as Grinding Gear Games is aware of Diablo 3, so is Blizzard about Path of Exile. The genre is so small that it easily fits these two separate games (and potentially even more). PoE will continue to become more interesting for hardcore players who want to invest lots of time and who like being punished for wrong decisions. D3 will not go into PoE's direction, nor bring back anything you know from D2 (that was made crystal clear in blue posts). If you despise the fact that Diablo 3 is supposed to be a bit more beginners-friendly, I urge you to switch to PoE - you'll be much more satisfied.
Besides, look at the mountain of things D2 got right. Skill trees, stats, amazing itemization, dueling, pking, much bigger randomized areas. I mean, D2 is a legendary game.
D2 got PKing right? We can debate about all the other points - on some of them I might agree, on some of them I'd call it a tie or "it depends on your point of view". But mentioning PKing as a good thing... you gotta be kidding me? If anyone can fill me in why PKing would even remotely be considered anything "good", be my guest.
As long as a visit to the walk in clinic is not needed, everyones cool..:D
But seriously, theres was a part in his quote that points out that people complained about 'skill points"
You change basic core game mechanics due to newbies who complain. That's how you ruin any game.
But, they did release respect potions just for the the 'mistake' factor. Saying that's not enough is a bit a stretch simply because its the point of the game. That's like playing GTA and saying you don't want to drive anything because its too fast and you constantly crash.
Throwing skill trees out the window and allowing instant respect is basically saying. "Build for Dummies 101". No harm, no foul, no problems. One character to build them all!. And hence destroying a key element of Diablo and ARPGS all together and putting all focus on items. And the items well... You know.
And remember D2 had offline mode and such.. You could mod the hell out of it and do what ever you wanted. Instant repspec? Hell, how about lvl 100 everything. Its right there and easy to do.
Maybe you should go check the actual player base of POE before assuming anything. There new ladder season has well over 20000 players playing.
POE may have more issue buts that clearly because POE has more depth and choice.
POE is by all standards a better RPG then Diablo 3. If only they had the budget and resources and man power of blizzard POE would probably be the best ARPG of all time.
So because 20k people are playing PoE's ladder season that translates (in your mind) to MOST people want to be forced to reroll? I'm sorry, but PoE is a PRIME EXAMPLE that people generally do not want that. If people DID want that stuff there would be way more than 20k players participating. If people DID want that stuff there'd be MILLIONS playing PoE and D3 would be struggling for a playerbase of 50k. But that's not reality which means that PoE is, in fact, catering to the minority.
For the record, PoE has 22+ people working on their game. How many people do you believe have been maintaining D3? I can't imagine Blizzard is paying much more than 30ish people to maintain D3. Blizzard isn't using more manpower here, and that's all that matters. I mean, unless you have knowledge of the specific number of people working on D3, I think it's unfair to assume that there are 50+ people working on it because all indications are that it's nowhere that high (and that precedent was very much set with D2).
How can you even say something so ridiculously elitist? Just because they disagree with you they are the "wrong" people? While Blizzard is not necessarily a democratic institution when it comes to what their fans want, it's pretty fuckin arrogant to basically say that some people have the "wrong" opinion.
As Overneathe (and Zero, and Bagstone) have said - forumgoers are rarely the "casuals" and are usually the more "hardcore" fans of a game. Blizzard didn't put respecs in D2 because of casuals, they put them in because PEOPLE FUCKING HATED BEGGING FOR A RUSH AND THEN LEECHING COWS TO MID-70s. The online culture was not that you were doing the work for yourself, but you were getting someone else to level your new toon for you. What depth does that add? It sure doesn't sound like amazingly deep gameplay to me.
I know it hurts to get out-voted by the majority, but please don't be so crass as to go down the "the people who wanted respecs were idiots" road.
Besides, look at the mountain of things D2 got right. Skill trees, stats, amazing itemization, dueling, pking, much bigger randomized areas. I mean, D2 is a legendary game.
I'm with Bagstone. We could have an actual discussion about many of the points there, but when you include "pking" in that list I really begin to have this mental picture of a guy who likes to grief others, killing them from off-screen, before the other person even knew they were involved in PvP. That doesn't make me inclined to take you seriously, at all.
Throwing skill trees out the window and allowing instant respect is basically saying. "Build for Dummies 101".
You do realize that you can disagree with design decisions without trying to call anyone who dislikes skill trees a "dummy" right? All this elitist shit from you doesn't help your credibility. It makes you look like a guy who is nerdraging because CASUAL SCRUBS can play his game too. D2 was stupidly easy to beat. Taking this "casuals ruined my game" approach to the subject is just stupid because D2 was amazingly casual-friendly.
If anything, D3 is less friendly to casuals than D2 ever was.
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Im starting to wonder about this.
Its not hard to tweak and fix the games current vanilla state. Among other things.
I think the problem stems from its community too.
The majority of the D3 community is filled with the dumbest most whiney players I have ever seen. Sometime I wonder if that's the problem.
I mean, for example:
-You got people begging for a ladder while the other half is complaining how stupid ladders are and how it would ruin everything.
-You got people begging for TDM and other pvp modes while the other half is crying about how PVP is stupid in ARPG.
-You got people begging for skill trees awhile the other half claims that theres no point for skill trees.
-You got people begging for some sort of nerf/cap to crit while others claim that those people are just poor/jealous.
I mean as a game dev you could be left running around in circles not knowing what to think. They need someone in charge, I mean really in charge with a firm grasp on the entire diablo/arpg style of game.
Its really sad who long and few the patches have been. When compared to Path of Exile its rather mind blowing.
Oh please.... Path of exile is a Free to Play game run by a shanty town of people that gets constant updates. POE in early closed beta had more depth and content than Diablo 3 had on release. And POE still releases new content. And BTW, its non subscription durrhHHP.
I mean hell, Diablo 3 had more content prior to release.. Skill trees, mystics, runes and TDM.. D3 promised TDM and never brought it to light for simply NO REASON at all.
Somewhere after the WoW era I think. It is rather annoying.
Im sure a lot of FANS would love to create new content for free. Maybe blizzard should hire them, for free...lol
And when did this whole mentality of "I'm bored after 600 hours... this game sucks!!" begin?
But the majority of players do or did...till they gave up.. TMD was promised and never given due to the fact "They got bored and it wasn't fun". I fail to see that as a logical reason. Mainly because this was shown off and people loved it.
Also skill trees/stats is what makes builds actually builds. This is why people made NEW characters in D2. There really is no reason to make new characters in D3 when you can simply swap skills with the same gear and still be effective.
Its all about depth. And really there is no depth in D3. Its fun game to play because of its combat mechanics but its no where near the monster D2 was and that's sad.
At the end of the day, people expected a lot more. Blizzard seems to have been stringing people along with false hope instead of blowing their minds and shutting them up. Their main focus always seems to be the AH and console version.
For every ONE thing that made D2 fun that was removed in D3 people will be upset. For everything WOW that was added to D3 people are upset.
To many people with to many opinions.. Is the problem.
I would have loved to have this game more inline with D2. I think D2 was just so much more fun simply because they didn't really care to much about what certain people thought. They new what 'they' wanted and simply went for it.
I mean, waiting almost a year for an ID all options is a bit mind blowing to say the least.
People are angry because they see the games potential being constantly ignored or delayed.
I bet 80% of people that bought D3 don't even have an opinion. They're the people that would just buy a game and play it and perhaps move on to something else. Which is apparent by the "3 million active users a month" that Jay Wilson mentioned. If you think you've seen 100 people that state "I want stats and skill points back" and just 2 that do not, you have no idea what the majority actually wants. The mere fact people are on official or fan forums means they're not part of the majority. They're part of the hardcore audience, which is minuscule.
And with that I return to my original argument, that you might've already forgotten, which is: it's fine to have an opinion, but don't state at as a fact or make sweeping generalizations.
Ha. Bagstone.
But remember - the RMAH was supposed to help fund constant development to D3. We scratch their back by selling things on the RMAH and they scratch ours by giving us more things to find.......to sell on the RMAH.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
Bold statement? Hell, that's the truth and im sure we all pretty much know this.
People wanted skill trees. A core game mechanic of ARPG and Diablo as a whole. They wanted to build actual characters.
Its easy to prove... How much theory crafting and actual guides to builds things exist in D3?
Now we have a mains with a budget instead of builds/guides. Which does indeed hurt the long term life of this game.
I mean, once you level up one class theres no reason do that again unless you would prefer a sex change. Hence people begging for account wide paragon status.
No skill tree = No builds = No Reason to make new character. Which is the basic reason of ARPG.
I didn't want skill trees. I just wanted a vast, dynamic and inspired itemization template. We're like 13 months in and they just told us it's going to be at least 6-10 months before that happens. What gets me is that they had time to create a console version before they fixed the staple of the Diablo platform, the PC release. I find that insulting.
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While I agree with the latter part of the post skill trees where needed for the sake of making new characters.
Its a reason why D2 was so much fun for so long. If I could just make one main in D2 with access to all skills boredom would have settled in a lot quicker.
In D3 I could have one character and I can swap skils at any time. That's like a years worth of playing gone in seconds..
Skill trees meant builds. D3 has no actual builds really. Which when you think about it is what RPGS are all about. Builds. Its not about loot only.
In D2 a few drops could inspire you to make a new build.
I think this is exactly what Overneathe (and Ruksak) were at least attempting to point out to you.
NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time. In fact, if it were a fact that people by and large did enjoy that, then Blizzard never would have touched that particular aspect of the game. But they did have lots of feedback and that feedback led them to believe that the majority of the players really didn't like that paradigm, so they changed it.
Just because YOU find it fun doesn't mean that EVERYONE finds it fun. I know I hated the fuck out of rerolling to be able to spend talent points in a different manner. I loathed it. The moment I started playing WoW I realized how much of a waste of my time it was to have to start a new Necromancer just to try out some different skills. It was like an epiphany when I realized just how much I had been wasting my time.
Besides, if EVERYONE wanted a game whereby you had to reroll to "reset" your character then PoE would surely have taken off by now since that's one of it's biggest features. Alas, PoE has even bigger playerbase issues than D3 has ever had. That should tell you that people who want a tough-as-nails hardcore experience are a minority.
There is actually evidence to suggest that MOST PEOPLE didn't actually like having to reroll their toons to try out new abilities. I'm not going to go so far as to say that's a fact, but there definitely is evidence that points to that particular conclusion.
I really wish people like you would stop acting like everything D2 did was perfect. We know, for a fact, that many people hated the fact that you couldn't "respec" your toon in D2. Why do we know that? Because eventually D2 added that feature. The fact that they implemented it means they had to have received quite a bit of feedback on the subject that pointed to the general dissatisfaction level. You can ignore this all you like, you can tell us how integral you feel it is to the ARPG genre, but it's pretty obvious that your opinion on the subject DOES NOT represent the majority.
Like I said... if being forced to reroll a new character to "respec" is something you feel is absolutely necessary then, please, vote with your actions and go play PoE. Show Blizzard. But, honestly, if everyone who felt that were the case left D3 today I'm betting it wouldn't even register on the "population" map because I sincerely doubt that anyone believes that feature is anywhere close to that important.
I could be wrong, though, and I urge everyone who thinks my hypothesis is wrong to put it to the test.
Feedback by the wrong people and it was clear that they also had the wrong person for the job. If you believe this change is for the better I would say you see take into account the amount of copies of D3 sold to the people still playing.
You say "NOT EVERYONE finds rolling new toons to "try out new builds" an enjoyable way to spend their time" Then I say why in the world you play an ARPG in the 1st place? To flip items on an AH? Why do you think there so much anger toward D3 with flocks of players looking for that next ARPG to quench their thirst for building charcters.
No one forced you to make new 'characters' in D2.. This was something RPG fans did because that's the point of playing. The sole purpose it so build a character and commit to it.
What is left in D3? Besides getting enough crit on gear to face roll MP 10?
Simply put, if they hired the right person for the job then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I would love a skill tree just so I could actually build a build.
Maybe you should go check the actual player base of POE before assuming anything. There new ladder season has well over 20000 players playing.
POE may have more issue buts that clearly because POE has more depth and choice.
POE is by all standards a better RPG then Diablo 3. If only they had the budget and resources and man power of blizzard POE would probably be the best ARPG of all time.
D3 is fun.. Its combat system is top notch. But, theres no RPG elements in it the game at all really.
Fact is D2 got worse over times.. Enigmas anyone?
Anyways, Respecs where bad, but atleast it wasn't instant respecs at anytime.. Which D3 did infact get wrong.
Besides, look at the mountain of things D2 got right. Skill trees, stats, amazing itemization, dueling, pking, much bigger randomized areas. I mean, D2 is a legendary game.
Well written and, in my opinion, good arguments. But if we take a step back, I think it's obvious that Blizzard should cater to both the casual and "hardcore" tastes. They have compromised this on the altar of streamlined UIs, and we are left with unrealized potential for those of us who would like the time sink to go on for years. D3 has an endgame, and I think it's quite good as evidenced by my total playtime (well over a 1000 hours). But it's not brilliant.
I think rerolling characters, much like paragon 100 race and minmaxing stats for diabloprogress rankings, is superficial ways of handling infinity endgame. The itemization patch seems like a better idea, in so far as you can farm for items to create fun builds in stead of simply playing through the game again. Of course, that presupposes a form of BoA, so that BiS (or best for build) is not possible to get on AH. Additionally, I would like endless dungeon system where you have to activate it similar to uberbosses (so that it won't simply replace normal farming). PvP could also work, though personally I'd prefer moba games.
This would greatly improve the end-game, but alas, it seems to be dreams for the distant future.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/sodomir-2220/
If you guys have a link with a statement from Blizzard or something, would be great.
lol.... See its this kind of of love and support for game even through its huge failures is what should be resected by blizzard.
Im with ya pal.. Il take anything...
Now go spread that idea to everyone!
1) "Skill trees that lets you create a build": You can create a build in every game, regardless whether it's a "tree" or just a "list" or whatever. The only thing that a tree as in D2 entails is that it comes with dependencies - to get to your final spell that accounted for 90% of your build's damage, you needed to waste 1 point in some useless skills that you would never touch at all. And you had to level up by using these weak skills with only 1 point in them. The fact that it has a tree with useless and sometimes annoying dependencies does not make anything better compared to the list or a rune system as it's implemented now. Hell, I CURSED the WoW warlock skill tree a million times since there was only 1 point missing to combine to super awesome nice skills that could've made up for a perfect synergy. It's like being offered the treasure at the end of a rainbow - but you'll never get it. An endless prank.
2) "Skill trees were better because you need to re-level a character": As shaggy so brilliantly outlined, D2 added re-spec for a reason. For a damn good reason. Blizzard does not listen to the wrong people, they're an outstanding example for a company who knows very well what's going on in their player's heads. Keep in mind that many many many of the casual players never even visit forums, so it's obvious you don't see their opinion. And whether you like casual players or not - Diablo 3 is not supposed to be some "1337 hardcore player game, screw the n00bs". There are casual players, and they have a right to play the game just as you do. Re-spec was removed for a damn good reason and although there is lots of discussion about things that went wrong in D3, the return of "fixed specs" is not among any of the major points on any player's wishlist we have ever seen. If you think it should be, you're free to go on the official forums and create a petition to re-introduce "fixed specs". But be warned, you might not like the outcome.
3) Please stop comparing D3 and PoE. We've had that discussion a hundred times, and as much as Grinding Gear Games is aware of Diablo 3, so is Blizzard about Path of Exile. The genre is so small that it easily fits these two separate games (and potentially even more). PoE will continue to become more interesting for hardcore players who want to invest lots of time and who like being punished for wrong decisions. D3 will not go into PoE's direction, nor bring back anything you know from D2 (that was made crystal clear in blue posts). If you despise the fact that Diablo 3 is supposed to be a bit more beginners-friendly, I urge you to switch to PoE - you'll be much more satisfied.
D2 got PKing right? We can debate about all the other points - on some of them I might agree, on some of them I'd call it a tie or "it depends on your point of view". But mentioning PKing as a good thing... you gotta be kidding me? If anyone can fill me in why PKing would even remotely be considered anything "good", be my guest.
As long as a visit to the walk in clinic is not needed, everyones cool..:D
But seriously, theres was a part in his quote that points out that people complained about 'skill points"
You change basic core game mechanics due to newbies who complain. That's how you ruin any game.
But, they did release respect potions just for the the 'mistake' factor. Saying that's not enough is a bit a stretch simply because its the point of the game. That's like playing GTA and saying you don't want to drive anything because its too fast and you constantly crash.
Throwing skill trees out the window and allowing instant respect is basically saying. "Build for Dummies 101". No harm, no foul, no problems. One character to build them all!. And hence destroying a key element of Diablo and ARPGS all together and putting all focus on items. And the items well... You know.
And remember D2 had offline mode and such.. You could mod the hell out of it and do what ever you wanted. Instant repspec? Hell, how about lvl 100 everything. Its right there and easy to do.
Anyways,, A bit too much off topic talk for me.
So because 20k people are playing PoE's ladder season that translates (in your mind) to MOST people want to be forced to reroll? I'm sorry, but PoE is a PRIME EXAMPLE that people generally do not want that. If people DID want that stuff there would be way more than 20k players participating. If people DID want that stuff there'd be MILLIONS playing PoE and D3 would be struggling for a playerbase of 50k. But that's not reality which means that PoE is, in fact, catering to the minority.
For the record, PoE has 22+ people working on their game. How many people do you believe have been maintaining D3? I can't imagine Blizzard is paying much more than 30ish people to maintain D3. Blizzard isn't using more manpower here, and that's all that matters. I mean, unless you have knowledge of the specific number of people working on D3, I think it's unfair to assume that there are 50+ people working on it because all indications are that it's nowhere that high (and that precedent was very much set with D2).
How can you even say something so ridiculously elitist? Just because they disagree with you they are the "wrong" people? While Blizzard is not necessarily a democratic institution when it comes to what their fans want, it's pretty fuckin arrogant to basically say that some people have the "wrong" opinion.
As Overneathe (and Zero, and Bagstone) have said - forumgoers are rarely the "casuals" and are usually the more "hardcore" fans of a game. Blizzard didn't put respecs in D2 because of casuals, they put them in because PEOPLE FUCKING HATED BEGGING FOR A RUSH AND THEN LEECHING COWS TO MID-70s. The online culture was not that you were doing the work for yourself, but you were getting someone else to level your new toon for you. What depth does that add? It sure doesn't sound like amazingly deep gameplay to me.
I know it hurts to get out-voted by the majority, but please don't be so crass as to go down the "the people who wanted respecs were idiots" road.
I'm with Bagstone. We could have an actual discussion about many of the points there, but when you include "pking" in that list I really begin to have this mental picture of a guy who likes to grief others, killing them from off-screen, before the other person even knew they were involved in PvP. That doesn't make me inclined to take you seriously, at all.
You do realize that you can disagree with design decisions without trying to call anyone who dislikes skill trees a "dummy" right? All this elitist shit from you doesn't help your credibility. It makes you look like a guy who is nerdraging because CASUAL SCRUBS can play his game too. D2 was stupidly easy to beat. Taking this "casuals ruined my game" approach to the subject is just stupid because D2 was amazingly casual-friendly.
If anything, D3 is less friendly to casuals than D2 ever was.