Sorry about the wall of text... but for those who are interested or have similar sentiments i'd love to hear your takes.
I have one major gripe about D3. First off ill give you a brief run down on my 'gaming backround' to hopefully help put my gripe in context. I played D2/LOD religiously. But when the game reached its twilight years of copious amounts of dupes/bots/etc... I left for greener pastures. I began playing a highly competitive FPS called Tribes, with much success. I then moved onto to play COD competitively, and now most recently, Street Fighter. All of these games are highly competitive and have somewhat unforgiving learning curves. You either learn to play at a high level or GTFO.
That said...
I am highly disappointed and disgusted that respeccing is being introduced in D3.
There was definitely something to be said about having a perfect character in LOD. It was something to be admired. It showed discipline and a level of dedication to the game that not many people had. I had a number of lvl 99 characters, but only 3 that I was truly proud of. One was a perfectly specced sorc, another was a perfectly specced zon, and last but not least, I had a completely blank lvl 99 paladin (he had all of his skills and the vast majority of attribute pts yet to be distributed- the result of leaching exp from countless cow runs)
The bottom line here... having a perfectly specced character was THE ONLY way to distinguish a good player, from a bad or casual one. Casual players would distribute their skill and attribute points all willy nilly, then when they reached higher levels they wondered why their character's power and potency paled in comparison to others that had carefully and correctly specced their characters... If the casual player wanted to feel that power for his/herself, their only option was to start over.
And please understand, I am not condemning the casual player. Nor am I trying to suggest that to play Diablo effectively you have put in copious amounts of time leaching exp off of random groups or your friends. I feel a person should play Diablo in the manor that they find most fun for themselves.
But for me... that manor was creating perfection. For the most part, at high levels, everyone had the same gear for specific builds, everyone had the enigmas, the perf shakus etc... The ONE AND ONLY way to differentiate our characters was speccs. And now, in D3 they're taking that away? Eventually, just like in LOD, there will be gold standard builds, with gold standard equipment etc in D3... only this time around everyone will also have the same specs as well. No character will be unique, no character will be original... there will be no difference between a hardcore and a casual player, everyone will simply be... the same.
For what it is worth, respeccing will not be as easy as you might think it is. Bashiok even commented and said it would just be easier to reroll a character than respeecing your entire character.
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The thing is... Times have changed. I catch your drift, and follow it a long way down the road. But they NEED to appeal to a wider audience, in order to compete. I remember many casual friends quitting D2 because the customization was too complex, and in order to be viable, you had to be perfect.
I remember level 20 Amazons destroying level 70 characters, simply because they specced better... Sadly Blizzard doesn't want to punish the casual player (you might think the opposite with the introduction of WoW: Cataclysm), but the thing is, in order to appeal to a wider playerbase they also need to casualise their game to a certain degree...
That's just my few cents
thanks for the cents man
and lol yea that brought back memories of a lvl 13 pvp assassin I messed around with at the end of my LOD days... I had her loaded with charms, she could take down some unsuspecting lvl 30-45'ers pretty easily
I don't see how any of the points in your argument are construed as a good thing TBH. The mere fact that there were "perfect" specs in D2 was the biggest problem with customization in the game. Variability didn't exist in D2 specs because variability wasn't viable. Everyone used the same specs. You say being perfectly spec'd is something to be proud of, but I feel relatively certain there are way more players around who are spec'd exactly the same as you are than there are "noobs" who screwed it up. Perfect specs are absolutely not the "THE ONLY way to distinguish a good player, from a bad or casual one." Bad players can read guides and use calculators too. Specing in D2 was a joke; everyone rolled cookie cutter specs with cookie cutter gear. Everyone looked the same, played the same; in most cases, there was no difference from one player to another in D2, period. Don't kid yourself.
You're proud of a character with no spec at all? How is leeching your way to 99 without contributing anything at all something to be proud of? No offense, I just don't understand why that would be something to put pride in.
Anyway...to your point of respeccing: I've already made my opinion clear on builds in D2 all being the same. In addition, if you screwed it up, you could just reroll and get your character back up into the 80s within a day. How is that a better system than an actual respec?
The mere fact that there were "perfect" specs in D2 was the biggest problem with customization in the game. Variability didn't exist in D2 specs because variability wasn't viable. Everyone used the same specs.
I agree. I think respeccing is a great feature to have in D3...it promotes experimentation and variety which is exactly what blizz wants.
Also in response to the OP, I dont' understand your argument. You say the hardcore players all created perfectly specd characters...but then you say you don't want all characters to be the same. If the hardcore players all created perfectly specd chars with the best gear...they would all be the same anyway!
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Destiny is no matter of chance, it is a matter of choice
I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Wholesale respeccing is a monstrosity. I don't want players to be playing and realize their level 50 character cant cut it in hell (This happened to me with my very first character in D2 except it was level 67). If that's the case, suck it up roll a new character and learn from the experience. However, I also don't want to have to run 15 different characters just to try out the skills and skill combos I am interested in. Small expensive respeccing for this purpose I believe is the best option. Allowing for some experimenting during the early in the games lifetime (and for those who don't go online to look up the 'right' way to build a character) is great, and can even help when you accidental make a choice you didn't want (sometimes kids/significant others etc. click on pretty buttons <_<)
An alternative option that just now occurred to me is a way to not alienate casual gamers (lack of respeccing does this) while also not insulting the gaming elite (as I assume you put yourself into) is to not permit respeccing in Hardcore mode. you have a maxed character with shinning everything in Hardcore, and people know you are one of the best.
As a note to something I strongly disagree with (assuming Blizz does their job) is that everyone will be identical. In LoD very few builds were even viable never mind among the best. In D3 there should be many more different builds and even gear selections that all have their place in top tier competitive play. This does not mean all will be, but several per class in terms of skills, runes, and gear ought to make the cut.
As to the learning curve of various games, you don't generally have a persistent character in FPSs so the time you work on the game constantly improves your ability to play. An RPG on the other hand will punish you for mistakes you make early because you play one character for 60-200+ hrs. Respeccing lets players take their early characters and modify them slightly based on what they learned while playing the game to improve their ability and reward them for spending the time to learn what is good and bad. Those are my thoughts on the matter anyway.
And by the way, Welcome and we apologize for the inconvenience.
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
My guess is that re-specing will be ideal for characters just starting out (in case a noob makes some small mistake and would like to correct it instead of taking 5 minutes to delete and re-make his character) and will also be used by very very very rich players. I wouldn't worry about it being overused because your right that would get real annoying
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Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
I had a completely blank lvl 99 paladin (he had all of his skills and the vast majority of attribute pts yet to be distributed- the result of leaching exp from countless cow runs)
From Kickin_It:
You're proud of a character with no spec at all? How is leeching your way to 99 without contributing anything at all something to be proud of? No offense, I just don't understand why that would be something to put pride in.
Exactly my thoughts, once I saw this in your thread I completely lost any respect for your or your post. I despised those would go into every cow run and not contribute at all. All the way to 99? For shame... :\
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
So tired of hearing "meow meow respecs are evil". Get with the times. There's nothing wrong with a respec. There's no reason why you should have to build an entirely new character just because you accidentally placed a few points where you didn't want them, period.
If skill and perfection are your top qualifiers for being distinguishable, then why does that have to come at the cost of something as logical as respeccing? Titan Quest had it, WoW had it. And I would bet that if Diablo II had it from the start, this post wouldn't even exist.
auction house
4 player limit
no charms
lvl 60 cap
the use of different colors for items than D2(they should just have made a color blind mode)
health orbs in pvp arenas
Respeccing was introduced with D2 1.13, not with Diablo III. Diablo III will arguably handle it much differently.
Having a 'perfectly specced' character in Diablo II proved nothing more than that the player had lots of free time. Rushing a character proved nothing of the rushee: it did not prove that the player has some font of playing skill or prowess. It just proved he/she had tons more free time and that he/she is so bored and disgusted by the acts/quests/difficulties that he/she is willing to skim through all of it while another player does all the work.
The game did not offer a ton of character customization because the in-game mechanics essentially forced characters to invest stat points in pre-defined ways and areas. STR for gear and everything else in VIT, unless you need some DEX for max block. That is not a huge amount of customization. It's making every character the same.
Just because the choice was there did not mean that it was viable, and therefore the mechanic, itself, was superfluous. The rest of the game was not designed well enough to adhere to the stat customization mechanic.
Skills were the better half of that system, but not anywhere near perfect or awesome. Builds, by and large, rely entirely on the same roughly three total skills that have been being maxed for use by players for the last decade. In some cases, players might not even use three skills. The rest were maxed for synergy bonuses and then never, or rarely, used.
Was it still fun? Yes. Was it still challenging? Yes. But it does not need to be lauded. The mechanics behind skill selection and stat allocation were and are broken, flaunting creativity to new players while, in all actuality, suppressing it.
Respeccing has a number of distinct advantages. First is that you don't need to redo the entire game just to fix a few skill points. That does not create fun. That's called grinding and is loathed by many. Second is that it helps new players learn from their mistakes and lets them experiment. Third, it greatly limits the amount of excess characters in our accounts, and lowers demand on the servers and server space. These are all logical and verifiable reasons. To deny them out of hand is to dismiss them with opinion.
What does respeccing mean for players in Diablo III, then? More playing the areas you actually find fun and engaging. More killing newbs instead of mindlessly rushing, which defeats the purpose of the act/quest structure of the game, anyway. More playing the end-game features or simply progressing through the difficulties instead of having to backtrack for no reason more than bad gameplay mechanics.
Respeccing was introduced with D2 1.13, not with Diablo III. Diablo III will arguably handle it much differently.
...
Let the e-rage ensue.
I couldn't agree more.
I'd also like to add that I get really attached to my character. My Barb's name will be CherubDown and I will want him to always be my barb. I don't want to make a new barbarian, ever. If I want to change specs, I want to be able to do so.
the thing is no matter how much we all will be a lil noobish...soo idk why people making a big deal about it causeee im sure all of us will be a lil noobish and do 1 lil mistake soo ya its for the casual gamer and ya for noobs but its also for us fan boys who want to figure everyhting out about the game so really if ur a hard core gamer u should be happy cause u can spend more time playing ur chars and stuff then re rolling playing leaching/runing threw game...if ur a hard core gammer like u say u are u shouldnt let specing interfier how you play is how you play you dont have to use respec if that makes u feel less hardcore.
they put all this stuff in there because everyone plays a lil different soooo you might not like specing but i do and vis virsa with anyhthing else...ps d2 everyone was always the same stat points and all thats one reason why they took stat points away enough stg for equip, enough dex for equip/sheild block, rest vit/energy (most likly never engy enless mana sheild)...sooo and ever if u where "perfect" if someone else was JUT LIKE YOU in D3 its not gonna be like that its just in stead of 1 or 2 perfect ways theres like 10 15 maybe
sorry for wall txt just again people need to think before they speak
I don't see how any of the points in your argument are construed as a good thing TBH. The mere fact that there were "perfect" specs in D2 was the biggest problem with customization in the game. Variability didn't exist in D2 specs because variability wasn't viable.
You're proud of a character with no spec at all? How is leeching your way to 99 without contributing anything at all something to be proud of? No offense, I just don't understand why that would be something to put pride in.
Totally missed that on my first reading...I am ashamed . I agree here too
I would also quote mag, but I don't know how to officially quote some one else. In any case I agree with basically everything he said as well.
However, the OP has a point hidden in here that is very important. That is how different players measure prestige. Being the top of the PvP scene is one way and having a great character is another (define this as you will, I disagree with how the OP described it 'cause that's called reading guide, but there are other ways that it can be defined).
While Blizzard is trying their best to please the casual crowd (a noble task) something like preventing respeccing in hardcore would please those who find respeccing too kind by giving them a way to put themselves above others. Something that many gamers play to be able to do (its primal they can't help it). So long as they aren't belligerent about it it makes that groups experience better without hurting anyone. And hardcore is not where you test a build anyway so everyone else shouldn't have a problem with it right?
A lot of what hass been said here is are very good points, but I think that the core of the OP's concern has some merit and should be addressed by Blizzard if they want to interest that group in this game
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If that made sense to you, Bravo! I think I even confused myself...
Well considering Bashiok said it'd be easier to reroll a character than to fully respec, I'm thinking maybe it's something like 1 skill at a time, just to correct errors or something.
Hopefuly it will be costly to respec your entire character, otherwise I think the game loses replayability if you can make every kind of barbarian with 1 character
but if you screw up, decide you want to take a different route, or are tired of looking at the same skills, or playing the same build, yes it should definitely be possible, but not to just switch around willy nilly
Having a perfectly specced Character wont really be needed to show off how good/hardcore/dedicated you are in Diablo 3, if you're as 'hardcore' as you say you are, you will have your arena ranking/titles to show how good you are, Which to me is good, i want something skill-based to show how good I am, rather then a spec people could just spend 5 minutes reading on a website and spec into it
Although I can't tell if your serious, CoD: an unforgiving learning curve? really?
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I have one major gripe about D3. First off ill give you a brief run down on my 'gaming backround' to hopefully help put my gripe in context. I played D2/LOD religiously. But when the game reached its twilight years of copious amounts of dupes/bots/etc... I left for greener pastures. I began playing a highly competitive FPS called Tribes, with much success. I then moved onto to play COD competitively, and now most recently, Street Fighter. All of these games are highly competitive and have somewhat unforgiving learning curves. You either learn to play at a high level or GTFO.
That said...
I am highly disappointed and disgusted that respeccing is being introduced in D3.
There was definitely something to be said about having a perfect character in LOD. It was something to be admired. It showed discipline and a level of dedication to the game that not many people had. I had a number of lvl 99 characters, but only 3 that I was truly proud of. One was a perfectly specced sorc, another was a perfectly specced zon, and last but not least, I had a completely blank lvl 99 paladin (he had all of his skills and the vast majority of attribute pts yet to be distributed- the result of leaching exp from countless cow runs)
The bottom line here... having a perfectly specced character was THE ONLY way to distinguish a good player, from a bad or casual one. Casual players would distribute their skill and attribute points all willy nilly, then when they reached higher levels they wondered why their character's power and potency paled in comparison to others that had carefully and correctly specced their characters... If the casual player wanted to feel that power for his/herself, their only option was to start over.
And please understand, I am not condemning the casual player. Nor am I trying to suggest that to play Diablo effectively you have put in copious amounts of time leaching exp off of random groups or your friends. I feel a person should play Diablo in the manor that they find most fun for themselves.
But for me... that manor was creating perfection. For the most part, at high levels, everyone had the same gear for specific builds, everyone had the enigmas, the perf shakus etc... The ONE AND ONLY way to differentiate our characters was speccs. And now, in D3 they're taking that away? Eventually, just like in LOD, there will be gold standard builds, with gold standard equipment etc in D3... only this time around everyone will also have the same specs as well. No character will be unique, no character will be original... there will be no difference between a hardcore and a casual player, everyone will simply be... the same.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
and lol yea that brought back memories of a lvl 13 pvp assassin I messed around with at the end of my LOD days... I had her loaded with charms, she could take down some unsuspecting lvl 30-45'ers pretty easily
You're proud of a character with no spec at all? How is leeching your way to 99 without contributing anything at all something to be proud of? No offense, I just don't understand why that would be something to put pride in.
Anyway...to your point of respeccing: I've already made my opinion clear on builds in D2 all being the same. In addition, if you screwed it up, you could just reroll and get your character back up into the 80s within a day. How is that a better system than an actual respec?
I agree. I think respeccing is a great feature to have in D3...it promotes experimentation and variety which is exactly what blizz wants.
Also in response to the OP, I dont' understand your argument. You say the hardcore players all created perfectly specd characters...but then you say you don't want all characters to be the same. If the hardcore players all created perfectly specd chars with the best gear...they would all be the same anyway!
An alternative option that just now occurred to me is a way to not alienate casual gamers (lack of respeccing does this) while also not insulting the gaming elite (as I assume you put yourself into) is to not permit respeccing in Hardcore mode. you have a maxed character with shinning everything in Hardcore, and people know you are one of the best.
As a note to something I strongly disagree with (assuming Blizz does their job) is that everyone will be identical. In LoD very few builds were even viable never mind among the best. In D3 there should be many more different builds and even gear selections that all have their place in top tier competitive play. This does not mean all will be, but several per class in terms of skills, runes, and gear ought to make the cut.
As to the learning curve of various games, you don't generally have a persistent character in FPSs so the time you work on the game constantly improves your ability to play. An RPG on the other hand will punish you for mistakes you make early because you play one character for 60-200+ hrs. Respeccing lets players take their early characters and modify them slightly based on what they learned while playing the game to improve their ability and reward them for spending the time to learn what is good and bad. Those are my thoughts on the matter anyway.
And by the way, Welcome and we apologize for the inconvenience.
From Kickin_It:
Exactly my thoughts, once I saw this in your thread I completely lost any respect for your or your post. I despised those would go into every cow run and not contribute at all. All the way to 99? For shame... :\
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
If skill and perfection are your top qualifiers for being distinguishable, then why does that have to come at the cost of something as logical as respeccing? Titan Quest had it, WoW had it. And I would bet that if Diablo II had it from the start, this post wouldn't even exist.
Having a 'perfectly specced' character in Diablo II proved nothing more than that the player had lots of free time. Rushing a character proved nothing of the rushee: it did not prove that the player has some font of playing skill or prowess. It just proved he/she had tons more free time and that he/she is so bored and disgusted by the acts/quests/difficulties that he/she is willing to skim through all of it while another player does all the work.
The game did not offer a ton of character customization because the in-game mechanics essentially forced characters to invest stat points in pre-defined ways and areas. STR for gear and everything else in VIT, unless you need some DEX for max block. That is not a huge amount of customization. It's making every character the same.
Just because the choice was there did not mean that it was viable, and therefore the mechanic, itself, was superfluous. The rest of the game was not designed well enough to adhere to the stat customization mechanic.
Skills were the better half of that system, but not anywhere near perfect or awesome. Builds, by and large, rely entirely on the same roughly three total skills that have been being maxed for use by players for the last decade. In some cases, players might not even use three skills. The rest were maxed for synergy bonuses and then never, or rarely, used.
Was it still fun? Yes. Was it still challenging? Yes. But it does not need to be lauded. The mechanics behind skill selection and stat allocation were and are broken, flaunting creativity to new players while, in all actuality, suppressing it.
Respeccing has a number of distinct advantages. First is that you don't need to redo the entire game just to fix a few skill points. That does not create fun. That's called grinding and is loathed by many. Second is that it helps new players learn from their mistakes and lets them experiment. Third, it greatly limits the amount of excess characters in our accounts, and lowers demand on the servers and server space. These are all logical and verifiable reasons. To deny them out of hand is to dismiss them with opinion.
What does respeccing mean for players in Diablo III, then? More playing the areas you actually find fun and engaging. More killing newbs instead of mindlessly rushing, which defeats the purpose of the act/quest structure of the game, anyway. More playing the end-game features or simply progressing through the difficulties instead of having to backtrack for no reason more than bad gameplay mechanics.
Let the e-rage ensue.
I couldn't agree more.
I'd also like to add that I get really attached to my character. My Barb's name will be CherubDown and I will want him to always be my barb. I don't want to make a new barbarian, ever. If I want to change specs, I want to be able to do so.
they put all this stuff in there because everyone plays a lil different soooo you might not like specing but i do and vis virsa with anyhthing else...ps d2 everyone was always the same stat points and all thats one reason why they took stat points away enough stg for equip, enough dex for equip/sheild block, rest vit/energy (most likly never engy enless mana sheild)...sooo and ever if u where "perfect" if someone else was JUT LIKE YOU in D3 its not gonna be like that its just in stead of 1 or 2 perfect ways theres like 10 15 maybe
sorry for wall txt just again people need to think before they speak
Yes I agree
Totally missed that on my first reading...I am ashamed . I agree here too
I would also quote mag, but I don't know how to officially quote some one else. In any case I agree with basically everything he said as well.
However, the OP has a point hidden in here that is very important. That is how different players measure prestige. Being the top of the PvP scene is one way and having a great character is another (define this as you will, I disagree with how the OP described it
'cause that's called reading guide, but there are other ways that it can be defined).While Blizzard is trying their best to please the casual crowd (a noble task) something like preventing respeccing in hardcore would please those who find respeccing too kind by giving them a way to put themselves above others. Something that many gamers play to be able to do (its primal they can't help it). So long as they aren't belligerent about it it makes that groups experience better without hurting anyone. And hardcore is not where you test a build anyway so everyone else shouldn't have a problem with it right?
A lot of what hass been said here is are very good points, but I think that the core of the OP's concern has some merit and should be addressed by Blizzard if they want to interest that group in this game
but if you screw up, decide you want to take a different route, or are tired of looking at the same skills, or playing the same build, yes it should definitely be possible, but not to just switch around willy nilly
Although I can't tell if your serious, CoD: an unforgiving learning curve? really?