Before I even get started, I'm not making a post whining about the change to attributes, I'm simply stating some serious concerns after hearing about this new mechanic while trying to keep an objective point of view.
I apologize in advance for the giant wall of text, but please take the time to read through and contribute to this thread if the recent news of stat auto-allocation is important to you!
This thread was reiterated from battle.net (same person, similar account name) and posted here to help inform the community of the problem so members of multiple communities could form objective points of view on this subject and see both sides of the argument, but more importantly, to help find a middle ground where EVERYONE will be satisfied, including the developers!
For those who are not aware, stat points are currently allocated automatically and the player has no control over where these points are placed. Everything is pre-determined based on class.
Lets start on a positive note.
Jay Wilson, according to the interview, stated that this helps development on items as they will be able to predict the attributes of characters at certain levels and it puts more emphasis on items giving stat points for your attribute customization.
It takes away the necessity for level requirements.There were plenty of times when, in D2, you found a decent item that was useful immediately, but you'd be neglecting your Str and, even though you met the level requirements, you couldn't use it. By the time you gained enough levels and earned enough points to use it, the item was already obsolete. That's what they really want to avoid: the player missing out on a bunch of immediately useful items just because they'd been neglecting a stat.
Instead of adding level requirements to items, they'll just require X amount of a certain stat. Because all Barbs will, for example, hit 52 Str by level 20, they'll be able to use it then, whereas Witch Doctors and Wizards will need to wait until 25 or 30 before they have enough Str to use it.
It shifts focus from attributes to skills in character customization.
Promotes coop; You'll know what stats other players will have, and so it's easier to find a suitable coop companion.
I can't think of anything else that could be considered positive, so lets go to the theoretical negatives.
I'm going to be referring to pre-LoD when referring to Diablo2 game play, because essentially with the onset of runewords, and the anni/torch, attributes became obsolete and were generic over ALL character classes. (min str, no mana, all vita, maybe some dex) However, pre-patch and pre-LoD attributes were a key part of character customization as you could build a sorc that focused on energy shield, which meant almost all mana and minimal vitality. (it was OP, but that's not the point) You could also make a melee sorc, where it was viable in early patches as game balance wasn't based on LoD itemization, which meant, for this build, crazy str/dex vita which doesn't happen anymore. This is something that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration! Attributes became a broken mechanic after the LoD, it was far more useful pre-expansion and has a lot of room to be reiterated and applied to Diablo3 in a new and compelling way! Anyways, back to the analyzing.
- The first problem that comes to mind is character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.
- The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unusable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it has the potential to be a HUGE part of the game.
Other negatives that come to mind include, as stated before, an oversimplified experience taking away from one of the Diablo franchises greatest redeeming qualities.
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.
The last thing that comes to mind is it creates a world of mediocrity within the base of each character. When all characters have a base that is identical to all characters of the same class, it's like running around with a bunch of clones where the only thing separating you from your playmates is the armor you're wearing and the skills you're using.
With all that said, I think, despite my clear bias against the mechanic, there is merit in both aspects. If there wasn't, the development team wouldn't be using it right now.
The key thing is there must be some level of customization for stats as, after reading about the enchant skill for the Wizard, I personally want to make a melee Wizard with Slow time and teleport (striking runes and all that jazz). However the fact that my character might not have enough strength to use equipment that would ultimately make the class viable or representative to the image I want to portray, it becomes very apparent that this mechanic is of major concern for those, like me, that will want to explore obscure and abstract builds.
A compromise would be the best way to go I think. Complete control ultimately ends up with generic cookie cutter formulas for character building (as was evident in Diablo2:LoD) if done poorly and absolutely no control will most likely end up taking away from the versatility of character customization and the overall Diablo experience.
What that compromise is? I don't know, I'm no developer or programmer. I just hope the development finds some sort of middle ground.
Mentioned possible solutions/compromises
Splitting auto allocated points and allocatable points upon level up.
This is the best of the compromises presented so far. In fact, I think it could work even better then Diablo2's stat allocation system that gave players total freedom.
If we want to look at why this mechanic we first have to know the numbers in play;
In Diablo2 you got 5 points per level and leveled up 98 times (Starting at level 1 meant you didn't gain any stats for that level and 99 is the max: 99-1=98 total levels gained) therefore you you gained a total of 490 stat points by leveling up 5 for each of the Lam Esens Tome quest in Normal/Nightmare/Hell difficulties.
Which means in Diablo2 you got a total of 505 points to distribute as you saw fit.
Now in Diablo3, we know you will be able to level up to 100, so that's one more set of 5 points we can give to the total stat pool in Diablo3's endgame.
So, aside from quests, we currently know there will be 495 points in Diablo3 assuming each level similarly distributes 5 stat points like in Diablo2.
Before I get into how dividing the points effects the stat allocation mechanic for the better, I will reiterate what the development team has stated is their reason for implementing this mechanic.
- They want to regulate stat allocation so that they can organize itemization based on predicted class level restrictions and base stat projections.
(basically what it boils down to.)
So, by splitting up stat points per level, here's what happens:
When you give a player 2 points to allocate per level it accumulates to 198 total points to spend wherever you want end game which is MORE then enough to customize your character and make up for any lack of a stat that may occur as a result of the automatic stat allocation. This leaves the development team 297 points to distribute and give them a very solid base for class predictions and itemization organization. REMEMBER, there will most likely be quests similar to Lam Esens Tome that will give you stats to distribute so I doubt 198 would be a problem. You can probably expect the number to be closer to 220 or 225 roughly.
OR
When you give a player 3 points to allocate per level it turns into 297 points to place as you see fit. Now, this still leaves 198 points for the blizzard staff to place under the guidelines of the auto-allocation system giving them a base to project what minimum there will be within the community regarding stats. However it is not quite as effective as the 2/3 ratio stated above.
This system would actually give the development team even MORE room to create compelling itemization options within the game as, by giving them a base, they can further expand on their knowledge of the possible items by knowing how far to raise or lower requirements based on what limitations already exist within the class bases which would similarly give players more options for creating unique and interesting builds that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
Personally, I would see the implementation of this mechanic (either 2/3 or 3/2 stat points) as a major step in the right direction and a positive iteration on the Diablo2 stat allocation system.
Quest rewards that would give you stat points.
Quests like Lam Esen's tome would be nice; you would need quite a few of these quests, though, to make it worthwhile being able to spend points where you wanted to.
Currently I would imagine this is already implemented however as a singular way to customize characters statistics I do not believe it would be enough. Only because a character with a sever detriment to a particular stat probably won't be able to make up for that disadvantage through quest stats alone, and if it did become a common reward, one could argue that it would give the game a feeling of mediocrity in that too many quests would give this reward if it was to be made viable. I believe 2-3 quests can be expected (not including Normal/Nightmare/Hell, so a total of 6-9 skill quests estimated) roughly given the projected quest prediction (I think they said something like 12 or so quests per act, give or take a few? Can't remember where, I'll have to source it later.)
To simply reiterate the stat allocation system by giving more compelling attribute effects to stat points to give players more incentive to place points in different statistics.
This is something I hope they do regardless of whatever system they settle on.
Feel free to discuss your concerns here if I forgot to mention anything but this thread is created for searching for a compromise as I believe, given the effect of the art controversy petition and it's utter lack of effect, that is the best thing we can hope for IF we can suggest solutions instead of simply complaining concerning aspects we disagree with.
Also, feel free to offer an objective opinion and discuss currently suggested compromises.
Well, the way i see it, stat points are sort of an illusion anyway. I'm not just trying to be cynical. What i mean is, the magic-based classes won't have much of a need for most, if any, of the high-strength items.
Take World of Warcraft for example. If you look at the stats on the high-armor value plate armors, they are stuff a caster-class would never dream of putting on their character anyway, because it's geared 100% towards the warrior who can equip it. Same with cloth armor - no warrior wants to run around with low armor and high intelligence (magic basically)
i think they are eliminating a sort of illusion-based system by simply giving you what you'll need.
Now, the only downside to this is that if you take away anything else, it may not feel like an RPG anymore at all. Hell, you can give yourself new abilities in Star Wars The Force Unleashed, yet it isn't an RPG by any stretch. So, they can only take away so much before it becomes and action game with just a few hints of RPG qualities.
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'Till you know that you won't run away.
There's something inside me that feels...
Like breathing in sulfur.
Well, the way i see it, stat points are sort of an illusion anyway. I'm not just trying to be cynical. What i mean is, the magic-based classes won't have much of a need for most, if any, of the high-strength items.
Right, because not one of the 9 million WoW players will ever have an original idea for a character build.
Take World of Warcraft for example. If you look at the stats on the high-armor value plate armors, they are stuff a caster-class would never dream of putting on their character anyway, because it's geared 100% towards the warrior who can equip it. Same with cloth armor - no warrior wants to run around with low armor and high intelligence (magic basically)
i think they are eliminating a sort of illusion-based system by simply giving you what you'll need.
Only if you think free will and the ability to choose are illusions...
Now, the only downside to this is that if you take away anything else, it may not feel like an RPG anymore at all. Hell, you can give yourself new abilities in Star Wars The Force Unleashed, yet it isn't an RPG by any stretch. So, they can only take away so much before it becomes and action game with just a few hints of RPG qualities.
Very true, in fact one poster mentioned how Blizzard is basically turning D3 into a Gauntlet sequel. Blue Wizard Needs Food Badly!
Yeah I really understand yours or his point (not sure if you copied all from the bnet link).
I mean a melee Wizard would be totally cool and outstanding from any normal build...
But when I heard the decision about auto allocated stats I actually got happy. The worst part of d2 was playing, having the time of your life, doing skills and putting stats. Wow look at this bararnars star, I want it for my amazon. Ding ding ding I put the 183 str or whatever that's required. Later I find this super cool bow I want instead. What hmm.. Only need 100 str? Oh.. Wow, now I totally suck in NM and hell.
I mean. When I started playing last time I just when looking on google "Best mf sorc" or whatever just because you need to know the exact stat to put to have the best cookie cutter char.
There are pros and cons with it. But for me the cons are just in favor.
Now it's just like "Oh yeah I want full tal rasha. Ok with perf torch and anni I need 115 str ok np" click click click.
I will agree that the feeling was utterly überness when played at first.
Wow... I can choose from energy, vitality, wow I'm from Sweden what does that mean (speaks 11-year old Ritual), dexterity and strength. Wow I'm a brute barbarian, I'll go for 2 in Strength but I also need dexterity so I can hit my enemy, 1 in dex. And hmm I also need life, 2 in vitality.
That whole procedure was so cool and I really loved it. I'm thinking about how they could implement stats correctly in D3 without making it cookie cutter-like and just knowing your stats from some guide-page.
Could be tons and tons and tons and again, tons of items so you'd always select differently and not know. But I think it would still end up with oh i'm lvl 70 with 300 stat points. Waiting for my other mf char to find some good gear so I know what to put out with this.
The best way I can think of avoiding cookie cutter stat builds is to simply give stats more meaning. Give players more incentive other then using equipment to put points in Strength and Dex. Give players a reason to invest in Mana instead of just getting more mana and faster regen.
For example:
STRENGTH ~ +% critical strike damage w/heavy melee weapons, +% damage to weapon based skills, +% health regeneration (on top of already in place stat buffs from D2 however they may apply and subject to balance)
DEXTERITY ~ +% attack speed, +% critical strike damage w/ light melee weapons and ranged weapons, +% physical damage resist (on top of already in place stat buffs from D2 however they may apply and subject to balance)
VITALITY ~ carry current buffs from D2 over however they may apply and subject to balance
Just made these off the top of my head, and they would definitely give players more incentive to allocate their points more liberally across all attributes for ALL classes. That was the main problem in D2, stats were not important enough.
Quote from "Ivaron" »
Halfway through, just want to add a positive:
- Promotes coop: you'll know what stats other players will have, and so it's easier to find a suitable coop companion.
Edit: ah, read it all. I must say, I'm coming from the same standpoint as Ritual. I think the automatic stats allocation is a good thing. Though, I must admit, when I first played WoW it was one of the things that struck me as odd and quite stupid.
Thinking about it for a while, though, yes D3's system is better than D2's system. However, I also see your points, and I think that there is always room to improve.
So! After reading this thread, I must say I really like the idea of Splitting auto allocated points and allocatable points upon level up. (yeah I just copied that :p)
I'll go with 2/3 though, definately not 3/2.
I agree, if they decided to implement the hybrid system, I would also definitely say 2/3 is the way to go.
I will agree that the feeling was utterly überness when played at first.
Wow... I can choose from energy, vitality, wow I'm from Sweden what does that mean (speaks 11-year old Ritual), dexterity and strength. Wow I'm a brute barbarian, I'll go for 2 in Strength but I also need dexterity so I can hit my enemy, 1 in dex. And hmm I also need life, 2 in vitality.
Blizzard I seriously love you for every decision you ever made about d3, and this is no exception. Stop making me amazed me or I wont be able to wait to 2010 or whenever.
One of the best things about D2 was owning noobs who didn't know how to allocate their stats properly. And I don't mean noobs as in new players. I mean perpetual noobs who play the game for years without ever comprehending game mechanics. That's yet another facet of character customization that will be absent from D3. Congrats, now you get to have my perfect stat distribution without even trying (or knowing that you have to (!!!)).
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"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Why not just put 1 stat that is completly locked and automatic for every class, it would do something different for each one. Lets call it,
Main Stat
Barbarian it could be something like strength that boost damage
Wizard - spell damage etc.
That stat would be automatic and locked, you wouldn't be able to change it
Then you would have Secondary stats that you would be able to fully customize
Every armor and weapon would be tied to the Main Stat
That would just serve to differentiate the classes even more if every class had different main stats and items were directly related to their main stats. It also sounds like a more extreme iteration of the hybrid system putting the ratio at 4 allocatable/1 automatic
You can easily modify this method by making the main stats do more, giving the secondary stats less value etc. As long as the secondary stats are not something you depend on but bonuses
I wanted to edit my post but I can't find any options for it so
It takes away the necessity for level requirements.There were plenty of times when, in D2, you found a decent item that was useful immediately, but you'd be neglecting your Str and, even though you met the level requirements, you couldn't use it. By the time you gained enough levels and earned enough points to use it, the item was already obsolete. That's what they really want to avoid: the player missing out on a bunch of immediately useful items just because they'd been neglecting a stat.
That's a good point, it hadn't crossed my mind, it'll help as your leveling. Like if that were in Diablo 2, that would have been very helpful while leveling (If I was actually going through it and not getting rushed). But it's when we reach endgame that I'll start to miss the ability for me to customize my character with a specific stat setup. Still, good point.
Even though I am against the idea of automatic stat input, it doesn't mean I'm not getting the game. Its just not my preference. And anyway, im sure when I play the game, It wont be so bad. I'm sure that if Blizzard does it, they have a good reason.
- The first problem that comes to mind is character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.
Agreed. For example, a sorceress. She could be:
-A high dexterity sorceress, for max block
-A high vitality sorceress, for alot of health
-A high energy sorceress, for energy shield
-And the strength scores of two sorceresses can vary depending on what set of gear she's using. And there usually was more then one type of gear set up that require different amounts of strength. This is especially true with melee sorcs.
- The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unusable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it has the potential to be a HUGE part of the game.
Yeah, so If my max strength score is 85 at level 100.. and I wanted to use Skullder's Ire, I wont be able to because I dont have enough strength to, Id have to stick to Tal Rasha's Guardianship. Then again, I suppose Blizzard wouldn't make something disireable to a wizard that she cant use.. but then again, we wont be able to expirment with the items that weren't really intended for sorceress, but have unique build potential.
Other negatives that come to mind include, as stated before, an oversimplified experience taking away from one of the Diablo franchises greatest redeeming qualities.
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.
The last thing that comes to mind is it creates a world of mediocrity within the base of each character. When all characters have a base that is identical to all characters of the same class, it's like running around with a bunch of clones where the only thing separating you from your playmates is the armor you're wearing and the skills you're using.
Agreed, I think nothing else needs to be said. As an example: In Diablo 2, you'd have two assassins.. one with high dex for max block, and one with max vit. One would be better against casters, one would be better against physical damage users. With pre-allocated stats, the assassin is only good against what his stat's allow him to.
Hack'n'Slash games doesn't require much intelligence. And making them even more dumb is crime. Stats auto-assignment makes the game much easier and that is the only ''profit' player can get from it. 'Some people can say, that Blizzards want to make the game more class-based. But ask yourselfs, wasn't it enough class-based before? Yes, without auto-assigned stats you could make, for example, barbarian with high intelligence. But for what purpose? He doesn't even have proper skills to feel the benefits of high intelligce. Yes, there are many +stats items and i think, that they should better reduce amount of such items or to put high penalties on them. And to prevent the appearance of wizards with heavy swords and armor they can increase attributes impact on skills.
Maybe we can compose a new petition? What do you think guys? I don't think that i can do this alone, because my english isn't very good
Hack'n'Slash games doesn't require much intelligence. And making them even more dumb is crime. Stats auto-assignment makes the game much easier and that is the only ''profit' player can get from it. 'Some people can say, that Blizzards want to make the game more class-based. But ask yourselfs, wasn't it enough class-based before? Yes, without auto-assigned stats you could make, for example, barbarian with high intelligence. But for what purpose? He doesn't even have proper skills to feel the benefits of high intelligce. Yes, there are many +stats items and i think, that they should better reduce amount of such items or to put high penalties on them. And to prevent the appearance of wizards with heavy swords and armor they can increase attributes impact on skills.
Maybe we can compose a new petition? What do you think guys? I don't think that i can do this alone, because my english isn't very good
Singing Barbs
Meleemancers/sorcs
Charge Pally
Zeal Pally
Conviction Pally
Dexzon
Javazon
Dodgezon (w/sword&shield)
Frenzy Barb
Berzerk Barb
Energy Shield Sorc
Werebear
Werewolf
Shadowsin
Ninja
Martial Arts sin
Are all D2 builds that only existed because of stat placement. All had different stats, and utilized different skills in a unique fashion. But without the stat placement ability given to players, these builds would never have existed.
Besides, if all stats are auto-assigned, then the effect on skills is meaningless since they're all normalized as you level.
If D3 has auto stats, I won't buy it as a sign of my ire at simplifying of the gaming industry. I probably need to play fewer games anyways lol. Here I come sunshine!
Edit: ah, read it all. I must say, I'm coming from the same standpoint as Ritual. I think the automatic stats allocation is a good thing. Though, I must admit, when I first played WoW it was one of the things that struck me as odd and quite stupid.
Yeah WOW has this same system. And I think it kinda works there with the item system. Lets see you have some options:
- In pvp you want that your gear gives you a lot of stamina, and yeah you can do that. With pvp gear you can have thousands of more life than without. This means like 100-200 more stamina than with a regular gear.
- In PVE you have different options also. Lets see a hunter. Now I was a Beast Mastery speced hunter, and my items were just basic AP/crit/agi gear. Then I speced to Survival which task is to buff raid with Expose Weakenss that works in like this: Every time you crit a monster (with 3/3 in the talent) you will debuff the target with Expose Weakness that gives 25% of your agility as Attack Power to the target. So what you want to do with Survival hunter is to get as much Agility as possible(well without making all your stats go too bad) So basically the end game gear that has most agility. Then you change your enchants and gems to ones that give agility.
So you can actually do a lot of stat changes with your gear and I think this is what we are going to do in D3 too. So all in all I think it is not so bad change since in D2 it is not that big part of the game anymore especially in LOD where the build is basically: Check how much str your end gear will give you.. check how much you need str, sum it up and put points if needed. Decide if you want block or not, with some shields it is not worth it(spirit). Get the forumula for blocking from internet and check how much you need for max block with shield X. Then you put rest into vitality.
In Classic. Most of my sorcs for example has base strenght, base dex(dont need dex for block there). Then rest of the points go to vita and energy, the amounths that go there are generally like 2 vita/3 energy. So it's not such a big deal to me at least.
I think it is a good thing that if a Wizard for example can't use heavy plates anymore etc.
I apologize in advance for the giant wall of text, but please take the time to read through and contribute to this thread if the recent news of stat auto-allocation is important to you!
This thread was reiterated from battle.net (same person, similar account name) and posted here to help inform the community of the problem so members of multiple communities could form objective points of view on this subject and see both sides of the argument, but more importantly, to help find a middle ground where EVERYONE will be satisfied, including the developers!
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=10972021570&sid=3000&pageNo=1
For those who are not aware, stat points are currently allocated automatically and the player has no control over where these points are placed. Everything is pre-determined based on class.
Source: http://www.diii.net/blog/comments/exclusive-jay-wilson-interview/
Second paragraph
Lets start on a positive note.
Jay Wilson, according to the interview, stated that this helps development on items as they will be able to predict the attributes of characters at certain levels and it puts more emphasis on items giving stat points for your attribute customization.
It takes away the necessity for level requirements.There were plenty of times when, in D2, you found a decent item that was useful immediately, but you'd be neglecting your Str and, even though you met the level requirements, you couldn't use it. By the time you gained enough levels and earned enough points to use it, the item was already obsolete. That's what they really want to avoid: the player missing out on a bunch of immediately useful items just because they'd been neglecting a stat.
Instead of adding level requirements to items, they'll just require X amount of a certain stat. Because all Barbs will, for example, hit 52 Str by level 20, they'll be able to use it then, whereas Witch Doctors and Wizards will need to wait until 25 or 30 before they have enough Str to use it.
It shifts focus from attributes to skills in character customization.
Promotes coop; You'll know what stats other players will have, and so it's easier to find a suitable coop companion.
I can't think of anything else that could be considered positive, so lets go to the theoretical negatives.
I'm going to be referring to pre-LoD when referring to Diablo2 game play, because essentially with the onset of runewords, and the anni/torch, attributes became obsolete and were generic over ALL character classes. (min str, no mana, all vita, maybe some dex) However, pre-patch and pre-LoD attributes were a key part of character customization as you could build a sorc that focused on energy shield, which meant almost all mana and minimal vitality. (it was OP, but that's not the point) You could also make a melee sorc, where it was viable in early patches as game balance wasn't based on LoD itemization, which meant, for this build, crazy str/dex vita which doesn't happen anymore. This is something that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration! Attributes became a broken mechanic after the LoD, it was far more useful pre-expansion and has a lot of room to be reiterated and applied to Diablo3 in a new and compelling way! Anyways, back to the analyzing.
- The first problem that comes to mind is character customization is exactly what made Diablo3's predecessors successful, and that's what is being hurt by the implementation of this mechanic as it takes away control from the player, essentially, dictating how they will develop their character. It was that aspect that had players coming back again and again over the years just to make a new build or try out something new and attributes were a BIG part of that.
- The other aspect that quickly becomes apparent is the limitations of itemization for characters to use. What I mean is, because characters have pre-planned stats that when you reach the highest level, there will be item types that your character might not be able to use.
Hypothetical example; I think we can be fairly certain that the Wizard isn't going to be a strength based character by any means. If this is the case, late game, can we hope to be able to use upper tier heavy armor? If there is an item that might significantly benefit a build but is unusable due to pre-allocated stat limitations, that is going to be severely detrimental to the game experience.
It seems like a minor thing, maybe, but it has the potential to be a HUGE part of the game.
Other negatives that come to mind include, as stated before, an oversimplified experience taking away from one of the Diablo franchises greatest redeeming qualities.
By shifting itemization focus slightly from more unique and compelling stats like skills, crushing blow, open wounds, resists, faster cast rate, etc, it puts too much emphasis on stats, as they were already important in itemization before pre-allocated stats.
The last thing that comes to mind is it creates a world of mediocrity within the base of each character. When all characters have a base that is identical to all characters of the same class, it's like running around with a bunch of clones where the only thing separating you from your playmates is the armor you're wearing and the skills you're using.
With all that said, I think, despite my clear bias against the mechanic, there is merit in both aspects. If there wasn't, the development team wouldn't be using it right now.
The key thing is there must be some level of customization for stats as, after reading about the enchant skill for the Wizard, I personally want to make a melee Wizard with Slow time and teleport (striking runes and all that jazz). However the fact that my character might not have enough strength to use equipment that would ultimately make the class viable or representative to the image I want to portray, it becomes very apparent that this mechanic is of major concern for those, like me, that will want to explore obscure and abstract builds.
A compromise would be the best way to go I think. Complete control ultimately ends up with generic cookie cutter formulas for character building (as was evident in Diablo2:LoD) if done poorly and absolutely no control will most likely end up taking away from the versatility of character customization and the overall Diablo experience.
What that compromise is? I don't know, I'm no developer or programmer. I just hope the development finds some sort of middle ground.
Mentioned possible solutions/compromises
Splitting auto allocated points and allocatable points upon level up.
This is the best of the compromises presented so far. In fact, I think it could work even better then Diablo2's stat allocation system that gave players total freedom.
If we want to look at why this mechanic we first have to know the numbers in play;
In Diablo2 you got 5 points per level and leveled up 98 times (Starting at level 1 meant you didn't gain any stats for that level and 99 is the max: 99-1=98 total levels gained) therefore you you gained a total of 490 stat points by leveling up 5 for each of the Lam Esens Tome quest in Normal/Nightmare/Hell difficulties.
Which means in Diablo2 you got a total of 505 points to distribute as you saw fit.
Now in Diablo3, we know you will be able to level up to 100, so that's one more set of 5 points we can give to the total stat pool in Diablo3's endgame.
So, aside from quests, we currently know there will be 495 points in Diablo3 assuming each level similarly distributes 5 stat points like in Diablo2.
Before I get into how dividing the points effects the stat allocation mechanic for the better, I will reiterate what the development team has stated is their reason for implementing this mechanic.
- They want to regulate stat allocation so that they can organize itemization based on predicted class level restrictions and base stat projections.
(basically what it boils down to.)
So, by splitting up stat points per level, here's what happens:
When you give a player 2 points to allocate per level it accumulates to 198 total points to spend wherever you want end game which is MORE then enough to customize your character and make up for any lack of a stat that may occur as a result of the automatic stat allocation. This leaves the development team 297 points to distribute and give them a very solid base for class predictions and itemization organization. REMEMBER, there will most likely be quests similar to Lam Esens Tome that will give you stats to distribute so I doubt 198 would be a problem. You can probably expect the number to be closer to 220 or 225 roughly.
OR
When you give a player 3 points to allocate per level it turns into 297 points to place as you see fit. Now, this still leaves 198 points for the blizzard staff to place under the guidelines of the auto-allocation system giving them a base to project what minimum there will be within the community regarding stats. However it is not quite as effective as the 2/3 ratio stated above.
This system would actually give the development team even MORE room to create compelling itemization options within the game as, by giving them a base, they can further expand on their knowledge of the possible items by knowing how far to raise or lower requirements based on what limitations already exist within the class bases which would similarly give players more options for creating unique and interesting builds that otherwise wouldn't be possible.
Personally, I would see the implementation of this mechanic (either 2/3 or 3/2 stat points) as a major step in the right direction and a positive iteration on the Diablo2 stat allocation system.
Quest rewards that would give you stat points.
Quests like Lam Esen's tome would be nice; you would need quite a few of these quests, though, to make it worthwhile being able to spend points where you wanted to.
Currently I would imagine this is already implemented however as a singular way to customize characters statistics I do not believe it would be enough. Only because a character with a sever detriment to a particular stat probably won't be able to make up for that disadvantage through quest stats alone, and if it did become a common reward, one could argue that it would give the game a feeling of mediocrity in that too many quests would give this reward if it was to be made viable. I believe 2-3 quests can be expected (not including Normal/Nightmare/Hell, so a total of 6-9 skill quests estimated) roughly given the projected quest prediction (I think they said something like 12 or so quests per act, give or take a few? Can't remember where, I'll have to source it later.)
To simply reiterate the stat allocation system by giving more compelling attribute effects to stat points to give players more incentive to place points in different statistics.
This is something I hope they do regardless of whatever system they settle on.
Feel free to discuss your concerns here if I forgot to mention anything but this thread is created for searching for a compromise as I believe, given the effect of the art controversy petition and it's utter lack of effect, that is the best thing we can hope for IF we can suggest solutions instead of simply complaining concerning aspects we disagree with.
Also, feel free to offer an objective opinion and discuss currently suggested compromises.
Take World of Warcraft for example. If you look at the stats on the high-armor value plate armors, they are stuff a caster-class would never dream of putting on their character anyway, because it's geared 100% towards the warrior who can equip it. Same with cloth armor - no warrior wants to run around with low armor and high intelligence (magic basically)
i think they are eliminating a sort of illusion-based system by simply giving you what you'll need.
Now, the only downside to this is that if you take away anything else, it may not feel like an RPG anymore at all. Hell, you can give yourself new abilities in Star Wars The Force Unleashed, yet it isn't an RPG by any stretch. So, they can only take away so much before it becomes and action game with just a few hints of RPG qualities.
You don't always know where you stand,
'Till you know that you won't run away.
There's something inside me that feels...
Like breathing in sulfur.
Right, because not one of the 9 million WoW players will ever have an original idea for a character build.
Right, what caster would ever want http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28662 ? Its insanity I tell you!
Only if you think free will and the ability to choose are illusions...
Very true, in fact one poster mentioned how Blizzard is basically turning D3 into a Gauntlet sequel. Blue Wizard Needs Food Badly!
The best way I can think of avoiding cookie cutter stat builds is to simply give stats more meaning. Give players more incentive other then using equipment to put points in Strength and Dex. Give players a reason to invest in Mana instead of just getting more mana and faster regen.
For example:
STRENGTH ~ +% critical strike damage w/heavy melee weapons, +% damage to weapon based skills, +% health regeneration (on top of already in place stat buffs from D2 however they may apply and subject to balance)
DEXTERITY ~ +% attack speed, +% critical strike damage w/ light melee weapons and ranged weapons, +% physical damage resist (on top of already in place stat buffs from D2 however they may apply and subject to balance)
VITALITY ~ carry current buffs from D2 over however they may apply and subject to balance
ENERGY ~ +% spell damage, +% increased faster cast rate, +% magic damage resist
Just made these off the top of my head, and they would definitely give players more incentive to allocate their points more liberally across all attributes for ALL classes. That was the main problem in D2, stats were not important enough.
I agree, if they decided to implement the hybrid system, I would also definitely say 2/3 is the way to go.
Why not just put 1 stat that is completly locked and automatic for every class, it would do something different for each one. Lets call it,
Main Stat
Barbarian it could be something like strength that boost damage
Wizard - spell damage etc.
That stat would be automatic and locked, you wouldn't be able to change it
Then you would have Secondary stats that you would be able to fully customize
Every armor and weapon would be tied to the Main Stat
One of the best things about D2 was owning noobs who didn't know how to allocate their stats properly. And I don't mean noobs as in new players. I mean perpetual noobs who play the game for years without ever comprehending game mechanics. That's yet another facet of character customization that will be absent from D3. Congrats, now you get to have my perfect stat distribution without even trying (or knowing that you have to (!!!)).
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
That would just serve to differentiate the classes even more if every class had different main stats and items were directly related to their main stats. It also sounds like a more extreme iteration of the hybrid system putting the ratio at 4 allocatable/1 automatic
Imagine what you mentionned in your post with Critical Chance, Speed, Dodge as Secondary Stats
and HP and Main stat as a locked constant
Barbarian:
(locked)
Main Stat - Strength (each point raises damage by 2 and HP by 5)
( x point per level to distribute )
Secondary Stats -
Critical Chance
Dodge
Speed
Resist
I wanted to edit my post but I can't find any options for it so
Even though I am against the idea of automatic stat input, it doesn't mean I'm not getting the game. Its just not my preference. And anyway, im sure when I play the game, It wont be so bad. I'm sure that if Blizzard does it, they have a good reason.
Agreed. For example, a sorceress. She could be:
-A high dexterity sorceress, for max block
-A high vitality sorceress, for alot of health
-A high energy sorceress, for energy shield
-And the strength scores of two sorceresses can vary depending on what set of gear she's using. And there usually was more then one type of gear set up that require different amounts of strength. This is especially true with melee sorcs.
Yeah, so If my max strength score is 85 at level 100.. and I wanted to use Skullder's Ire, I wont be able to because I dont have enough strength to, Id have to stick to Tal Rasha's Guardianship. Then again, I suppose Blizzard wouldn't make something disireable to a wizard that she cant use.. but then again, we wont be able to expirment with the items that weren't really intended for sorceress, but have unique build potential.
Agreed, I think nothing else needs to be said. As an example: In Diablo 2, you'd have two assassins.. one with high dex for max block, and one with max vit. One would be better against casters, one would be better against physical damage users. With pre-allocated stats, the assassin is only good against what his stat's allow him to.
Maybe we can compose a new petition? What do you think guys? I don't think that i can do this alone, because my english isn't very good
Singing Barbs
Meleemancers/sorcs
Charge Pally
Zeal Pally
Conviction Pally
Dexzon
Javazon
Dodgezon (w/sword&shield)
Frenzy Barb
Berzerk Barb
Energy Shield Sorc
Werebear
Werewolf
Shadowsin
Ninja
Martial Arts sin
Are all D2 builds that only existed because of stat placement. All had different stats, and utilized different skills in a unique fashion. But without the stat placement ability given to players, these builds would never have existed.
Besides, if all stats are auto-assigned, then the effect on skills is meaningless since they're all normalized as you level.
If D3 has auto stats, I won't buy it as a sign of my ire at simplifying of the gaming industry. I probably need to play fewer games anyways lol. Here I come sunshine!
- In pvp you want that your gear gives you a lot of stamina, and yeah you can do that. With pvp gear you can have thousands of more life than without. This means like 100-200 more stamina than with a regular gear.
- In PVE you have different options also. Lets see a hunter. Now I was a Beast Mastery speced hunter, and my items were just basic AP/crit/agi gear. Then I speced to Survival which task is to buff raid with Expose Weakenss that works in like this: Every time you crit a monster (with 3/3 in the talent) you will debuff the target with Expose Weakness that gives 25% of your agility as Attack Power to the target. So what you want to do with Survival hunter is to get as much Agility as possible(well without making all your stats go too bad) So basically the end game gear that has most agility. Then you change your enchants and gems to ones that give agility.
So you can actually do a lot of stat changes with your gear and I think this is what we are going to do in D3 too. So all in all I think it is not so bad change since in D2 it is not that big part of the game anymore especially in LOD where the build is basically: Check how much str your end gear will give you.. check how much you need str, sum it up and put points if needed. Decide if you want block or not, with some shields it is not worth it(spirit). Get the forumula for blocking from internet and check how much you need for max block with shield X. Then you put rest into vitality.
In Classic. Most of my sorcs for example has base strenght, base dex(dont need dex for block there). Then rest of the points go to vita and energy, the amounths that go there are generally like 2 vita/3 energy. So it's not such a big deal to me at least.
I think it is a good thing that if a Wizard for example can't use heavy plates anymore etc.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)