As we already know, Blizzard is attempting to make the combat tactical, that requires a certain degree of thinking.
Lately I've been thinking about how long the would-be challange would hold out. How long until entire fights become completely instinctive (Because it's really hard for me to believe that it wouldn't at some point).
When you've mastered the counter attacks for most of monster-type encounters, you're left with pure mindless H&S. It's hard to convey this through words, but I simply imagine a point where you're like on autopilot. You see a monster, you know the counter. And it becomes second nature, and so the tactical thinking fades into oblivion.
I'm just wondering, is this inevitable? Will this not happen to everyone eventually?
Tell me what you think about this - Because it really bums me out, mostly because it's a core gameplay issue.
yes and no if you fight two different types of monsters with different counter measures then you might have to do some tactical thinking to destroy both monsters without getting to much damage.
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My life is like a dragon, first praised, then hated, now lost.
If one repeats something enough, it will become second nature.
That's what bums me out.
I'd really love it if Blizzard truly tried to break the habit and somehow, using intense randomizers on lots of stuff, keep the player challanged.
That's what bums me out.
I'd really love it if Blizzard truly tried to break the habit and somehow, using intense randomizers on lots of stuff, keep the player challanged.
I R the intense randomizers! I R the real CHALLANGE!
Seriously now, it would be kind of cool to have randomized strategies and abilities for boss battles. I'm not saying let a melee boss cast fire-ball or anything like that, but have a wide range of melee skills that a boss can use, and randomize those skills.
Have the boss use a set amount of those skills for an encounter then on top of that change the strategies the boss will use, not just over the time of the encounter, but every time you face that boss again. This will allow for a pool of skills to be matched up with a pool of strategies and then randomized, to create a potentially infinite number possibilities.
hey, I think we should be happy that now its mindless number tapping as well as clicking and scrolling instead of the simple click click click click click click of Diablo and the occational F1 F2 back to F1.
ooo I almost forgot that in some situations there's the constant smashing of 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 "B" right click on the TP book (unless you had the book assigned to an F# shortcut)
Damn.... I think I pretty much summed up the whole gameplay of Diablo II there
But yea, atleast now we have some more buttons to click, at the very least we now have different combinations of numbers depending on the situtation.
And I think if Diablo II succeeded with the above mentioned formula Diablo III will do much better!
hey, I think we should be happy that now its mindless number tapping as well as clicking and scrolling instead of the simple click click click click click click of Diablo and the occational F1 F2 back to F1.
ooo I almost forgot that in some situations there's the constant smashing of 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 "B" right click on the TP book (unless you had the book assigned to an F# shortcut)
Damn.... I think I pretty much summed up the whole gameplay of Diablo II there
But yea, atleast now we have some more buttons to click, at the very least we now have different combinations of numbers depending on the situtation.
And I think if Diablo II succeeded with the above mentioned formula Diablo III will do much better!
Obviously there will be changes for the better compared to Diablo II.
It's not my point though.
I want people to tell me out of their own expirience whether or not games that claimed to have tactical fighting sessions were still little bit challanging even after much replay.
Part of the tactics in diablo 2 come from skills, and in an everchanging group I imagine the tactics can switch up a bit depending who your with and what your fighting at the time.
Obviously there will be changes for the better compared to Diablo II.
It's not my point though.
I want people to tell me out of their own expirience whether or not games that claimed to have tactical fighting sessions were still little bit challanging even after much replay.
hmm. well imo, if you repeat something so many times, whether it be in games or irl, you'll eventually be able to do it mindlessly, and without much thought about the next step.
I mean, if your making a complex engine for the 1st time, it'll be tough and challenging, but when its your 500th time its probaby gonna feel as simple and as easy as breathing.
But I think that before you'll be get to the point of being on "auto pilot" on all 5 classes (and all possible builds, if there will be different builds, which is very likely) they'll pump out an expansion with new character classes. So this game will keep you busy and entertained for a while.
Personally i dont believe a combat which becomes too tactical would be a good thing. The main reason why most people play the diablo series is because it is fast action, hacknslash style gameplay. If the combat becomes too tactical then it might slow down the overall speed and subsequently quality, of the game.
3 good monster with a great IA > 20.000.000 random sklilled monsters, just because randomized things are, in most of cases, unplaned, mindless shirtloads with absolute no IA.
I prefer very tatical, inteligent combats. It will end some day ? Of course.
Thats the reason why game like diablo exist for the PvP.
Think of it like Counter-Strike: Source or another FPS, once you know a map inside out and where people come from at some point you sometimes pre-fire and kill people. You can call it instinct or highly calculated scenarios or same old same old but we will get used to it...and quick I might add.
Nowadays no matter the difficulty of the game in a couple of hours you've memorized most of the controls and hotkeys. Kids too, they are freakin' amazing at games. If only they would apply themselves to my math classes I teach, lol.
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
It'd be cool if there were some uniques that had random attributes but didn't tell you what the attribute is!
You'd have to test what works and what doesn't. I like that idea, its more realistic, and definitely challenging.
For example, a unique could gain the random attributes of Immune to Fire and Multiple Shots, but it wouldn't actually say it under its name. If you tried a fire attack and noticed that it doesn't do anything, you'd have to try something else. And because its random, you don't automatically know what the counter is, you have to try and figure it out. Also, because it has two attributes, you might see it cast multiple projectiles at you and get tricked into thinking that 'multiple shots' is its only attribute, not realising that it is also immune to fire.
It'd be cool if there were some uniques that had random attributes but didn't tell you what the attribute is!
You'd have to test what works and what doesn't. I like that idea, its more realistic, and definitely challenging.
For example, a unique could gain the random attributes of Immune to Fire and Multiple Shots, but it wouldn't actually say it under its name. If you tried a fire attack and noticed that it doesn't do anything, you'd have to try something else. And because its random, you don't automatically know what the counter is, you have to try and figure it out. Also, because it has two attributes, you might see it cast multiple projectiles at you and get tricked into thinking that 'multiple shots' is its only attribute, not realising that it is also immune to fire.
Now that's what I'm talking about!
Just randomize the shit out of this game. If there's something that I wish for is for Diablo III to exist in the long run not only for the PvP, but for PvM as well. And that's just the way to do that.
I'd love it if the game would sustain its challange and pass the test of time.
I just hope Blizzard tests the game as much as possible and notices if the game becomes dull combat-wise after a while.
Seriously, in D2 you just clicked on the boss a few times and he would die. Or if your character is really that bad, you could click for another few minutes. But nothing else.
When i lastly faced Andariel with my skeleton necro, i could cast amplify damage on her a second before she died. If the skeletons wouldve gone out of the screen i wouldnt probably have realized her dieing untill i saw the flames.
In the Zelda games, every single boss and also many monsters need unique techniques to kill. The boss usually has some order he does his moves and you have to catch the right moment and use your correct piece of equipment. Sometimes its a boomerang, sometimes a bow and maybe a special kind of arrow. Sometimes you even have to throw a bomb into the boss' mouth when he starts some kind of attack where he opens his mouth.
More difficult bosses change their shape and strategy after loosing some amount of health, so you have to figure the new order of moves he does.
In that aspect, Zelda is really awesome.
Totally agreed. Zelda is one of the best game series ever.
And don`t forget WoW bosses really follow that line. Many bosses have tricky abilities, like the first boss in Black Temple, that you`ve to take a spike he throws to break the bubble shield that let him semi-immortal.
I really believe that diablo 3 bosses will follow that line.
I agree with these ideas! Randomization in fights, plus not knowing what they are immune to would make it more of a challenge. Many times bosses did die too fast, especially in a public game and someone would go and kill the boss and take all the loot before we run there (thankfully no longer a problem).
And yes, those unique kind of Zelda fights are fun when you have to do certain stuff to win. But don't forget not all classes have the same abilities, it would hinder some if they didn't do it right. WoW boss fights are also good to take from too, it's already their game so not really copy-catting.
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
I do not like the sound of what they are doing with the combat. To me, it sounds like once you've figured out how to beat a mob, it won't be an issue. The only way they can avoid this is by making the enemies do more damage... which is something they said they weren't trying to do.
It's just going to make the game simpler. Figure out how to beat a mob, you've figured out how to beat a large section of the game. Figure out how to beat a boss, you've got him beat every time you see him.
This was exactly how it was in D2. Each monster was beaten a certain way. Those jumpy guys in the desert? Yeah, you fought them differently than you did the explodey guys in the Durance of Hate. It's the >>>exact<<< same thing we saw in D2. This whole "YOUR CHARACTER HAD INFINITE RESOURCES" thing doesn't even make sense. At what part of the game was your character a god, the end? Yeah, everyones characters were gods at that point. Wasn't that the idea?
Yeah, most mobs in D2 were just hack and slash auto-following mobs that you'd just smack, but some weren't. Oddly, the ones that weren't were placed in appropriate places for their design. In a way, you could say the level design made up for this. Yeah, level design. It exists in randomly generated environments (it isn't really random).
The thing about this is that it's expected. It's nothing innovative and was what I expected them to do with D3 as the best and most interesting non-boss encounters in D2 were the ones where you had to change your strategy.
My biggest issue is that the difficulty doesn't come from the encounter, but from health. That's incredibly unappealing as I've played games where health was rare and 'hard' to get. They aren't fun nor are they actually a challenge. The encounters are actually dumbed down and easier as a result and the game becomes boring to play. "Oh, so when the cyclops uses his yell attack I can attack him for a moment since he is stunned." Anyone who has played TQ knows how dull this actually is.
But I'm really excited that I'll be dodging enemy attacks again in D3! I sure didn't do that in D2.
I do not like the sound of what they are doing with the combat. To me, it sounds like once you've figured out how to beat a mob, it won't be an issue. The only way they can avoid this is by making the enemies do more damage... which is something they said they weren't trying to do.
It's just going to make the game simpler. Figure out how to beat a mob, you've figured out how to beat a large section of the game. Figure out how to beat a boss, you've got him beat every time you see him.
This was exactly how it was in D2. Each monster was beaten a certain way. Those jumpy guys in the desert? Yeah, you fought them differently than you did the explodey guys in the Durance of Hate. It's the >>>exact<<< same thing we saw in D2. This whole "YOUR CHARACTER HAD INFINITE RESOURCES" thing doesn't even make sense. At what part of the game was your character a god, the end? Yeah, everyones characters were gods at that point. Wasn't that the idea?
Yeah, most mobs in D2 were just hack and slash auto-following mobs that you'd just smack, but some weren't. Oddly, the ones that weren't were placed in appropriate places for their design. In a way, you could say the level design made up for this. Yeah, level design. It exists in randomly generated environments (it isn't really random).
The thing about this is that it's expected. It's nothing innovative and was what I expected them to do with D3 as the best and most interesting non-boss encounters in D2 were the ones where you had to change your strategy.
My biggest issue is that the difficulty doesn't come from the encounter, but from health. That's incredibly unappealing as I've played games where health was rare and 'hard' to get. They aren't fun nor are they actually a challenge. The encounters are actually dumbed down and easier as a result and the game becomes boring to play. "Oh, so when the cyclops uses his yell attack I can attack him for a moment since he is stunned." Anyone who has played TQ knows how dull this actually is.
But I'm really excited that I'll be dodging enemy attacks again in D3! I sure didn't do that in D2.
I agree with most of what you said.
But hell, randomizers can go a long way. We can just hope that Blizzard sees how dull the game would become at some point and intensify and increase the amount of randomization to keep interest.
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Lately I've been thinking about how long the would-be challange would hold out. How long until entire fights become completely instinctive (Because it's really hard for me to believe that it wouldn't at some point).
When you've mastered the counter attacks for most of monster-type encounters, you're left with pure mindless H&S. It's hard to convey this through words, but I simply imagine a point where you're like on autopilot. You see a monster, you know the counter. And it becomes second nature, and so the tactical thinking fades into oblivion.
I'm just wondering, is this inevitable? Will this not happen to everyone eventually?
Tell me what you think about this - Because it really bums me out, mostly because it's a core gameplay issue.
That's what bums me out.
I'd really love it if Blizzard truly tried to break the habit and somehow, using intense randomizers on lots of stuff, keep the player challanged.
I R the intense randomizers! I R the real CHALLANGE!
Seriously now, it would be kind of cool to have randomized strategies and abilities for boss battles. I'm not saying let a melee boss cast fire-ball or anything like that, but have a wide range of melee skills that a boss can use, and randomize those skills.
Have the boss use a set amount of those skills for an encounter then on top of that change the strategies the boss will use, not just over the time of the encounter, but every time you face that boss again. This will allow for a pool of skills to be matched up with a pool of strategies and then randomized, to create a potentially infinite number possibilities.
ooo I almost forgot that in some situations there's the constant smashing of 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 "B" right click on the TP book (unless you had the book assigned to an F# shortcut)
Damn.... I think I pretty much summed up the whole gameplay of Diablo II there
But yea, atleast now we have some more buttons to click, at the very least we now have different combinations of numbers depending on the situtation.
And I think if Diablo II succeeded with the above mentioned formula Diablo III will do much better!
Obviously there will be changes for the better compared to Diablo II.
It's not my point though.
I want people to tell me out of their own expirience whether or not games that claimed to have tactical fighting sessions were still little bit challanging even after much replay.
hmm. well imo, if you repeat something so many times, whether it be in games or irl, you'll eventually be able to do it mindlessly, and without much thought about the next step.
I mean, if your making a complex engine for the 1st time, it'll be tough and challenging, but when its your 500th time its probaby gonna feel as simple and as easy as breathing.
But I think that before you'll be get to the point of being on "auto pilot" on all 5 classes (and all possible builds, if there will be different builds, which is very likely) they'll pump out an expansion with new character classes. So this game will keep you busy and entertained for a while.
I prefer very tatical, inteligent combats. It will end some day ? Of course.
Thats the reason why game like diablo exist for the PvP.
Nowadays no matter the difficulty of the game in a couple of hours you've memorized most of the controls and hotkeys. Kids too, they are freakin' amazing at games. If only they would apply themselves to my math classes I teach, lol.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
You'd have to test what works and what doesn't. I like that idea, its more realistic, and definitely challenging.
For example, a unique could gain the random attributes of Immune to Fire and Multiple Shots, but it wouldn't actually say it under its name. If you tried a fire attack and noticed that it doesn't do anything, you'd have to try something else. And because its random, you don't automatically know what the counter is, you have to try and figure it out. Also, because it has two attributes, you might see it cast multiple projectiles at you and get tricked into thinking that 'multiple shots' is its only attribute, not realising that it is also immune to fire.
Now that's what I'm talking about!
Just randomize the shit out of this game. If there's something that I wish for is for Diablo III to exist in the long run not only for the PvP, but for PvM as well. And that's just the way to do that.
I'd love it if the game would sustain its challange and pass the test of time.
I just hope Blizzard tests the game as much as possible and notices if the game becomes dull combat-wise after a while.
Totally agreed. Zelda is one of the best game series ever.
And don`t forget WoW bosses really follow that line. Many bosses have tricky abilities, like the first boss in Black Temple, that you`ve to take a spike he throws to break the bubble shield that let him semi-immortal.
I really believe that diablo 3 bosses will follow that line.
And yes, those unique kind of Zelda fights are fun when you have to do certain stuff to win. But don't forget not all classes have the same abilities, it would hinder some if they didn't do it right. WoW boss fights are also good to take from too, it's already their game so not really copy-catting.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.
- Homer Simpson
It's just going to make the game simpler. Figure out how to beat a mob, you've figured out how to beat a large section of the game. Figure out how to beat a boss, you've got him beat every time you see him.
This was exactly how it was in D2. Each monster was beaten a certain way. Those jumpy guys in the desert? Yeah, you fought them differently than you did the explodey guys in the Durance of Hate. It's the >>>exact<<< same thing we saw in D2. This whole "YOUR CHARACTER HAD INFINITE RESOURCES" thing doesn't even make sense. At what part of the game was your character a god, the end? Yeah, everyones characters were gods at that point. Wasn't that the idea?
Yeah, most mobs in D2 were just hack and slash auto-following mobs that you'd just smack, but some weren't. Oddly, the ones that weren't were placed in appropriate places for their design. In a way, you could say the level design made up for this. Yeah, level design. It exists in randomly generated environments (it isn't really random).
The thing about this is that it's expected. It's nothing innovative and was what I expected them to do with D3 as the best and most interesting non-boss encounters in D2 were the ones where you had to change your strategy.
My biggest issue is that the difficulty doesn't come from the encounter, but from health. That's incredibly unappealing as I've played games where health was rare and 'hard' to get. They aren't fun nor are they actually a challenge. The encounters are actually dumbed down and easier as a result and the game becomes boring to play. "Oh, so when the cyclops uses his yell attack I can attack him for a moment since he is stunned." Anyone who has played TQ knows how dull this actually is.
But I'm really excited that I'll be dodging enemy attacks again in D3! I sure didn't do that in D2.
I agree with most of what you said.
But hell, randomizers can go a long way. We can just hope that Blizzard sees how dull the game would become at some point and intensify and increase the amount of randomization to keep interest.