Why can't you people understand, plain and simple no math needed, if they cap paragon now the people that HAVE HIGH LEVEL GEMS are the only ones that will have them and dominate the leader board and then you all would be on here crying again and again, unless they cap all gems and augments then capping paragon will NOT fix it.
whats your point? that gem problem is an issue for NS only and with the power creep this would be a small problem for 1 era at most.
but yeah, capping paragon is a weird solution since it removes the initial thought why paragon even got introduced back in vanilla. Especially with the uncapped paragon 2.0
People like wudijo impressively demonstrated that paragon is not the main issue why people cant reach high leaderboard rankings. That's harsh to accept but it's also a fact.
Wudijo run the last week of the season clearly showed that even the best DH in the world can NOT be rank 1 and overcome the time variable on the mixed LB (case 1). Has wudijo been competing on a case 2) LB he would have reclaimed the rank 1 position again.
bu this is even more positiv! he managed to get rank 4 with paragon 1150 clearly showing that i good player can go for top ten. quite impressive. so what is this para discussion over and over again? does everybody want to be able to get rank 1???
why do so many people does this game take serious as an esport game? diablo 3 cant provide that.
we want to use skill, not paragon. the end.
While diablo 3 is fun its not a skilled game. Id say poe is the most skilled arpg, its not unavoidable stuff you stat through like in this game.
Para is the only carrot left for some people. If we could trade people would have more incentive to play.
It's a mess, because the paragon system creates the need for 3 types of leaderboards and we only have one:
1) The one we have right now - the mixed LB, grind + skill
2) The one the competitive players want - the skill LB, based purely on skill, with capped paragon and gem levels
3) The one the paragon lovers want - the grind LB, based purely on paragon level
Wudijo run the last week of the season clearly showed that even the best DH in the world can NOT be rank 1 and overcome the time variable on the mixed LB (case 1). Has wudijo been competing on a case 2) LB he would have reclaimed the rank 1 position again.
I personally don't expect any changes in the paragon system until the next D3 expansion (aka Q3 2017). A lot of time passed since the paragon problem has emerged and the devs didn't show any initiative at all to solve it. It's their game after all. It's their mess also.
2) that one is not possible if you have RNG based grifts as we do now. Only if everybody would have same grift with same mobs and density and same guardian. Also, same gear. So, its not something we will see in D3.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
this game, in this state, is a prisoner of its own. some players(esspecially todays players) love PvP(not PvE), challange, competative playstyle. id like to remind you guys this very important matter. im not saying we should turn this game to some sort of MOBA, but this is undeniable -and naturally expected-. why? because we arent living on an age of single player where we can be just happy and satisfied againts A.I enemies. as long as A.I doesnt develop itself to become very human-like, this will stay as this way. do you hear me blizzard?! YOU CANT IGNORE THIS FOREVER! ehem, anyway.
i know its a big old topic, and i know some of you have a point by saying "diablo isnt about PvP", but alternate of allowing PvP, is going through setting a real deal competative gameplay... otherwise most players will lose interest and see no meaning/fun to play anymore then a week after every season start.
blizzard should deciede what they will do about this situation. they ignored this for years and it clearly made no good. anyway, there are 2 options:
1-make players compete each other directly by introducing a solid PvP arena system.
-OR-
2-make players compete each other indirectly by a solid skill based ladder system.
as it seems, blizzard leaning towards option 2, but paragon level grinding is a big obstacle on this way. it should be nerfed heavyly or be capped at a reasonable number... if blizz dont do any of those, we will see return of bots no matter how hard ban hammer hit them... along with some small percentage of players trying to compete with them.
my all friends abonded this game long ago, and some of them were hardcore fans of d1 & d2.... i am about to abonden it too, because of those reasons i said up there... oh man, blizzard really dissapoints me nowadays... so slow, so incapable of leading its own games... someone please insert *just do it!* meme here.
edit: i could add "giving promise about pvp" but at this point i dont even care promises anymore. i just want diablo to be alive. thats why i make my self loud within forums now, after all these years. i almost feel like im in for the last call and i need to yell everyone before everything ends! pff!
i mean it would be cool to have an arena pvp where it has an entirely different progression/leveling system for pvp, where everyone starts at level 1 but instead of fighting monsters you duel people and in groups, and gain power/xp by winning matches and kills etc. Progression would be slow, and selective, only opening up a handful of skills, and each one tuned to pvp and having secondary effects (think dh with grenades, adds a slow effect to it for example)
The main issue is, you cant just let it be free for all because there's people out there who are best in slot geared, doing grfit 100, have every single piece augmented, 2000+ paragon etc, so how do you scale that guy down to a newer player entering the fight, who is only half the gear, maybe paragon 500, etc, and its unrealistic to think player B with 500 can or will want to grind to the gear/paragon of player A in any extreme amount of time that it takes to achieve player A's status. (mixing pve with pvp is mixed bag/bad idea...took wow 11 years to figure that out)
So you could have pre-made setups, with pre-determined gear, and let players play it out with skill, but i still think players should work their way up the ranks, and gather xp and experience and skills as they go, rather than given everything, or there could be both modes, those who want some quick action for a few hours of killing to those who want to really learn/play from the beginning, I know i would play both
There also would either have to be a buff to health/armor or extreme nerf to damage to players, because I'm sure a lot of you tried the little dueling area, and got 1 shot by your friend, i know i did, and it was stupid. All my crusader friend had to do was spam hammers at the start, and before could even react, dead....weee that was fun!..not (millions of damage to my 700k health)
So yeah i think with the right thoughts and beta testing and ideas from the community they could really make a cool pvp system in d3, but they just dont prefer it or think the game needs to/has to go in that direction, but myself, and 1000's of others disagree, and have been saying this since launch
but d3 has been out now for what 5 years? (or 4) the ship has passed on the pvp thing, if they were going to do it, it would of been done by now, they arent tomorrow going to be like oh we got this pvp system going now, only 4 years to late guys!...wishful thinking....
I'm paragon ~800 (both sc and hc, and lower para on other accs). You think having higher paragon makes you a better player?
paragon is not MMR, in some cases its actually the opposite
People are stacking gear and paragon for 4 years and then crying about some season warriors that just joined the game outclassing said people completely.
And its also funny how people who never touch seasons bragging on forums later, comparing themselves to season players, but in reality just copying whatever they use to farm paragon all day
It maybe harsh and non-accurate, but for me its the truth.
I'm paragon ~800 (both sc and hc, and lower para on other accs). You think having higher paragon makes you a better player?
paragon is not MMR, in some cases its actually the opposite
It doesn't necessarily make you better but it gives you knowledge and experience in high difficulty content. It depends on how players use this knowledge and if they learn from that experience to become better.
Some people learn faster and some slower. That's how you can have a P1500 beat a P2000 player. But a P800 player doesn't stand a chance because you have zero experience in high difficulty content. Even if somebody gave you a P2000 account, you'd still not have a chance to compete.
I have plenty of experience on first seasons high difficulty content, not to mention vanilla ^^ Its all about making decisions on gear depending on situation to make a best outcome and how to play the maps (oops, poe term here), stack mobs, use pylons, etc
Rules of the game doesn't change. Its a power creep game. Those who adapt good will probably adapt good later.
By giving the people chance to outfarm blizz simplifies otherwise pure vertical hierarchy of strong players, giving the weak a chance to just farm more and be successful, that's why the game shifted from farming gear to farming exp, and all content is being nerfed season after season to no avail
This information is WRONG! The experience required per level continues to escalate and there is no cut off! Reaching PL 10,000 will take a while with PC players.
You're a fool if you think your experience of the first seasons means something right now...
Can you then tell what's the difference and why I am a fool
Almost everything changed from the first few seasons to now.
Different maps: In S1, it was basically all about getting Silver Spire; in S5, Crater was arguably the best. Even some cave maps (auto-skip in S1-S3) worked out in S5.
Different mobs: Dust Eaters and Cuddle Bears, once the #1 mob type, are really bad now. For solo wizards, Winged Assassins are amazing - a mob type you would avoid like the plague in previous seasons.
Different pylon mechanics: Pylons changed significantly over the past few seasons, in terms of what they do, in terms of how they spawn, and in terms of when to use them (and when not).
Different RGs: In S1+2 the worst RG was Saxtris, which was by far the best in S5.
Different playstyle: From Crusader pulling, over zero dog, perma stun with Tiklandian, and perma RG stun by crus/WD, we know arrived at pulling barbarians. The support meta has changed entirely, different skills, different playstyles.
Twisters: You will need a lot of rifts to know all the corners for stacking Twisters. Unless you do all of that on GR20 rifts for some reason, you *will* be paragon 1000+ before you can really call yourself knowledgeable about the Twister meta.
I've played S1+2 relatively competitively (multiple top 100 rankings) and the knowledge and experience that you can recycle for the S5 meta is almost zero. It was like learning a new game.
This information is WRONG! The experience required per level continues to escalate and there is no cut off! Reaching PL 10,000 will take a while with PC players.
The very first sentence, starting with "UPDATE2:" addresses this, and the very last sentence has a link to the updated information. The information is not wrong, it's simply outdated as clearly indicated by the disclaimer, yet the argument in my opinion still prevails.
Fast learner will adapt just as fast, only difference I see is how many people playing meta groups to farm paragon now, which wasn't such a thing before, as it was dangerous to farm high trials - 1 lag and your best dh gear is RIP. Yes, trials was actually a good thing. Keeping grinders at bay, and allowing skilled people to farm keys and then farm and upgrade their gems even alone, by sacrificing a lot of time though.
Fast learner may be disgusted by how the game changed which will result in recluse and stopping playing once more, once he see that grinders now at the top.
I was going to s6 in good mood, but its grim now, after realizing that underachievers of prev. seasons and heavy grinders are the only ones who play the game now
since when number of using a specific word makes the content more relevant?
i talked about those things aswell because they are deeply connected with paragon leveling, from very birth to this state. you cant discuss it without knowing why, when and how... without remembering what was the main question!
end game. thats where all things are getting very problematic. paragon system is not healty therefore its not bringing anything usefull to the table. it doesnt give any fresh breathe to the game, it doesnt add any fun, and it doesnt offer any option at all... its just some flat bonuses, some more numbers to overcome more numbers without any kind of skill involvement in it. nothing changes towards gameplay by those paragon points.
hell, it doesnt even add a meaningfull progression feeling. after paragon 300, its just damn stupid stat boost.
overall its a big wrong answer for end game problems.
lol clown with 800p and era 1 expirience)) why do you think you can even post here so stupid things?
my first post, that you've quoted was adressed to another clown with 1100p that called others really expirienced players "casuals" so wtf you've begun to defend him lmao
Why can't you people understand, plain and simple no math needed, if they cap paragon now the people that HAVE HIGH LEVEL GEMS are the only ones that will have them and dominate the leader board and then you all would be on here crying again and again, unless they cap all gems and augments then capping paragon will NOT fix it.
whats your point? that gem problem is an issue for NS only and with the power creep this would be a small problem for 1 era at most.
but yeah, capping paragon is a weird solution since it removes the initial thought why paragon even got introduced back in vanilla. Especially with the uncapped paragon 2.0
People like wudijo impressively demonstrated that paragon is not the main issue why people cant reach high leaderboard rankings. That's harsh to accept but it's also a fact.
Para is the only carrot left for some people. If we could trade people would have more incentive to play.
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
this game, in this state, is a prisoner of its own. some players(esspecially todays players) love PvP(not PvE), challange, competative playstyle. id like to remind you guys this very important matter. im not saying we should turn this game to some sort of MOBA, but this is undeniable -and naturally expected-. why? because we arent living on an age of single player where we can be just happy and satisfied againts A.I enemies. as long as A.I doesnt develop itself to become very human-like, this will stay as this way. do you hear me blizzard?! YOU CANT IGNORE THIS FOREVER! ehem, anyway.
i know its a big old topic, and i know some of you have a point by saying "diablo isnt about PvP", but alternate of allowing PvP, is going through setting a real deal competative gameplay... otherwise most players will lose interest and see no meaning/fun to play anymore then a week after every season start.
blizzard should deciede what they will do about this situation. they ignored this for years and it clearly made no good. anyway, there are 2 options:
1-make players compete each other directly by introducing a solid PvP arena system.
-OR-
2-make players compete each other indirectly by a solid skill based ladder system.
as it seems, blizzard leaning towards option 2, but paragon level grinding is a big obstacle on this way. it should be nerfed heavyly or be capped at a reasonable number... if blizz dont do any of those, we will see return of bots no matter how hard ban hammer hit them... along with some small percentage of players trying to compete with them.
my all friends abonded this game long ago, and some of them were hardcore fans of d1 & d2.... i am about to abonden it too, because of those reasons i said up there... oh man, blizzard really dissapoints me nowadays... so slow, so incapable of leading its own games... someone please insert *just do it!* meme here.
edit: i could add "giving promise about pvp" but at this point i dont even care promises anymore. i just want diablo to be alive. thats why i make my self loud within forums now, after all these years. i almost feel like im in for the last call and i need to yell everyone before everything ends! pff!
i mean it would be cool to have an arena pvp where it has an entirely different progression/leveling system for pvp, where everyone starts at level 1 but instead of fighting monsters you duel people and in groups, and gain power/xp by winning matches and kills etc. Progression would be slow, and selective, only opening up a handful of skills, and each one tuned to pvp and having secondary effects (think dh with grenades, adds a slow effect to it for example)
The main issue is, you cant just let it be free for all because there's people out there who are best in slot geared, doing grfit 100, have every single piece augmented, 2000+ paragon etc, so how do you scale that guy down to a newer player entering the fight, who is only half the gear, maybe paragon 500, etc, and its unrealistic to think player B with 500 can or will want to grind to the gear/paragon of player A in any extreme amount of time that it takes to achieve player A's status. (mixing pve with pvp is mixed bag/bad idea...took wow 11 years to figure that out)
So you could have pre-made setups, with pre-determined gear, and let players play it out with skill, but i still think players should work their way up the ranks, and gather xp and experience and skills as they go, rather than given everything, or there could be both modes, those who want some quick action for a few hours of killing to those who want to really learn/play from the beginning, I know i would play both
There also would either have to be a buff to health/armor or extreme nerf to damage to players, because I'm sure a lot of you tried the little dueling area, and got 1 shot by your friend, i know i did, and it was stupid. All my crusader friend had to do was spam hammers at the start, and before could even react, dead....weee that was fun!..not (millions of damage to my 700k health)
So yeah i think with the right thoughts and beta testing and ideas from the community they could really make a cool pvp system in d3, but they just dont prefer it or think the game needs to/has to go in that direction, but myself, and 1000's of others disagree, and have been saying this since launch
but d3 has been out now for what 5 years? (or 4) the ship has passed on the pvp thing, if they were going to do it, it would of been done by now, they arent tomorrow going to be like oh we got this pvp system going now, only 4 years to late guys!...wishful thinking....
@lowfidelity
are you kidding me? read it before calling it offtopic. i am talking about paragon leveling.
I'm paragon ~800 (both sc and hc, and lower para on other accs). You think having higher paragon makes you a better player?
paragon is not MMR, in some cases its actually the opposite
People are stacking gear and paragon for 4 years and then crying about some season warriors that just joined the game outclassing said people completely.
And its also funny how people who never touch seasons bragging on forums later, comparing themselves to season players, but in reality just copying whatever they use to farm paragon all day
It maybe harsh and non-accurate, but for me its the truth.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GIfoxJeRL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
I have plenty of experience on first seasons high difficulty content, not to mention vanilla ^^ Its all about making decisions on gear depending on situation to make a best outcome and how to play the maps (oops, poe term here), stack mobs, use pylons, etc
Rules of the game doesn't change. Its a power creep game. Those who adapt good will probably adapt good later.
By giving the people chance to outfarm blizz simplifies otherwise pure vertical hierarchy of strong players, giving the weak a chance to just farm more and be successful, that's why the game shifted from farming gear to farming exp, and all content is being nerfed season after season to no avail
This information is WRONG! The experience required per level continues to escalate and there is no cut off! Reaching PL 10,000 will take a while with PC players.
I've played S1+2 relatively competitively (multiple top 100 rankings) and the knowledge and experience that you can recycle for the S5 meta is almost zero. It was like learning a new game.
But that's what I'm exactly talking about.
Fast learner will adapt just as fast, only difference I see is how many people playing meta groups to farm paragon now, which wasn't such a thing before, as it was dangerous to farm high trials - 1 lag and your best dh gear is RIP. Yes, trials was actually a good thing. Keeping grinders at bay, and allowing skilled people to farm keys and then farm and upgrade their gems even alone, by sacrificing a lot of time though.
Fast learner may be disgusted by how the game changed which will result in recluse and stopping playing once more, once he see that grinders now at the top.
I was going to s6 in good mood, but its grim now, after realizing that underachievers of prev. seasons and heavy grinders are the only ones who play the game now
paragons haven't been around for four years m8 to guy who said that lol there was time no paragon lvls then it went to cap 100 then infinite later on
since when number of using a specific word makes the content more relevant?
i talked about those things aswell because they are deeply connected with paragon leveling, from very birth to this state. you cant discuss it without knowing why, when and how... without remembering what was the main question!
end game. thats where all things are getting very problematic. paragon system is not healty therefore its not bringing anything usefull to the table. it doesnt give any fresh breathe to the game, it doesnt add any fun, and it doesnt offer any option at all... its just some flat bonuses, some more numbers to overcome more numbers without any kind of skill involvement in it. nothing changes towards gameplay by those paragon points.
hell, it doesnt even add a meaningfull progression feeling. after paragon 300, its just damn stupid stat boost.
overall its a big wrong answer for end game problems.
lol clown with 800p and era 1 expirience)) why do you think you can even post here so stupid things?
my first post, that you've quoted was adressed to another clown with 1100p that called others really expirienced players "casuals" so wtf you've begun to defend him lmao
Just to ask, am I a clown too, only 1.3k P? Or am I just simply retarded, since I have maybe 2k hours of playtime?
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
they are clowns because of their stupid posts and not cos of paragon, relax