Hello, I consider myself a seasoned player of the Diablo franchise. I have a few suggestions that could improve the game mixed with some constructive feedback, whether the suggested improvement is to be trimmed, replaced, or simply thrown out. And finally, I have some questions directed at the Diablo 3 player base.
- Firstly let's talk about rift guardians, elites, champion packs, and the abilities they can spawn with. I do not FEEL some elite/champion affixes are fun in their nature. I also do not feel they test player skill. I feel they are merely here to block progress past a certain point in greater rift progression. I also feel the necklaces that prevent a certain school's damage and instead heal are REQUIRED past a certain point, preventing player individuality and assimilating common gear setups.
- Let's look at Jailer for our first example. If you manage to get to a certain level in greater rifts, they end up one-shotting you and there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot dodge it nor can you rely on them to cast it at certain times and use a skill to prevent the damage reliably. You are forced to wear the Countess necklace or fight the enemy with a ranged character from very far away and pray they a) don't have the fast affix, don't have the teleporter affix, or c) have reflect damage and you cannot see what you are attacking. I think if there was an effect like the bone prison Diablo herself casts under the player's feet with a fair bit of warning, this affix would be more fun/interesting. I won't dwell on each affix, so let's move along. Speaking of reflect damage...
- Reflect damage. There is very little time to react to stop attacking to prevent the ONE hit it takes to destroy your character, especially if you fire projectiles that will not be able to be stopped once the champion activates their murderous barrier. You cannot dodge it nor can you reliably avoid reflect damage without planning on stopping attacking very regularly. I feel it is not very fun when a mechanic exists forcing a player to stop attacking for an extended period of time. I feel this affix should be downright removed from the game as I cannot make a suggestion to flavorize it.
- Frozen. This affix has changed over the course of Diablo 3's life and I am afraid to say it is not a good change. I understand you want to give the player a nudge when Frozen has been activated under their feet so they know to move. I feel draining our HP at a very rapid pace that only gets quicker as we progress in greater rifts is not the answer I am afraid. I believe a certain percentage of their HP that is a static amount would be reasonable. I also feel it is a little difficult to spot Frozen on the ground the more players you add to the game or the more you throw other effects on the ground. Speaking of frozen, I feel the frozen inherent ability on the rift boss Coldsnap is a bit excessive. I feel if maybe he threw them out in waves and/or in a certain pattern, forcing the player to move a certain direction in a maze but still allowing the player ample time to damage the boss, would be more fun.
- Thunderstorm. I feel when lightning strikes in the game there should be a warning, not an immediate death screen. I also believe six or seven strikes of huge damage is a bit high. I feel it should also be a certain FAIR percentage of the player's HP if it is going to remain in the game. This affix and Electrified force players to wear the Xephirian amulet if they want to play roulette and get past a certain greater rift level. Make a cool visual effect over the monster's head appear before he/she/it casts the spell. A storm cloud or some very serious arcs of lightning appearing over their heads would be groovy, for example.
- Electrified. This affix disallows melee to engage in combat with certain elites/champions past a certain greater rift level. The player attacks and then receive a very, very high amount of damage, similar to reflect damage. I do not feel this ability belongs in the game. I understand the nostalgia behind it and Rakanishu, but I think it needs to go or the damage should be reasonable enough for melee to stand in the fight and contribute to the death of the monster pack.
- Fire chains. I feel as though this affix plagues my barbarian unless I use my Star of Azkaranth, which is yet another crutch and/or a roulette game. I understand the fire chains deactivate and reactivate every second or two, but it is not fun in my opinion because I cannot kill the monster pack in a reasonable amount of time even if I show the utmost care in avoiding its damage. We all get blasted the moment we touch the chain, especially if the monster teleports onto us. How is that fun? I want to see this affix in a more fun light, but I do not think disallowing a player from attacking the monster or group of monsters is going to happen without some form of a fire chain being present connecting the elites. I can see the Fire Chains doing damage to the player if they remain inside the enclosure connecting the chains. Outside the chains, the player should be fine. Raekor barbs shouldn't have to feel the need to skip this pack. Make the fire chain spawn point appear around the outside of the monster closest to his other pack-mates, allowing melee to hit the monster without fear of standing or passing through the monster's hit-box.
- Shielding. Yet another example of forcing a player to not attack a monster for a period of time. I do not get satisfaction or pleasure when I am forced to stop attacking a monster. I feel if I am skilled enough to dodge or work through whatever else he throws at me, I should be able to damage him as a reward, not be faced with a barrier that laughs at my character of choice. Melee should deal half damage to a shielded enemy with no reflected damage and any ranged projectile fired at shielded enemies should actually reflect a portion of the ability back to the originating player at a reduced avoidable speed.
- Molten. This forces the player to stand at their maximum hit-box range from the monster to not receive any fire damage, assuming they can attack without passing through a monster. For example, the way Raekor's set works disallows the player from having fun against this monster affix. Lower the damage and make it manageable or allow the monster to throw out molten explosions that deal less damage than the current molten explosion.
- Waller. The wall spell lasts ages and should be taken down to perhaps half of its duration, possibly with a faster cooldown to even out the nerf. I feel when walls exist blocking a player's exit without a proper escape skill that lasts the entire duration of Frozen, or poison enchanted for example, is not fun.
- Mortar. Make the visual on the ground more visible.
- Vortex. Throw the player to the other side of the champion pack rather than right on top of the champion pack.
- Teleport. Allows the monster to teleport anywhere on the player's screen, but not on top of them.
- Knockback. Throws the player back but does not reduce their movement speed.
- Plagued. I like how this works as it does increasing amounts of damage the longer the player stands in it, but I feel the duration of plagued lasts too long, eventually filling up the player's screen with nowhere to move.
- Health Link. This does not always work as intended, with some members of the affix group dying much sooner than others. I do not see this as a challenging affix nor is it very fun or interesting. I believe this could be improved upon but I cannot think of a fun change at the moment.
- Desecrator. This affix is fine the way it is. I find it interesting and fun.
- Arcane Enchanted. I like this affix as it currently exists in the game. However, I do not like how the beam is invisible when standing around a corner from where it is cast, then when we proceed to enter the room, we are annihilated by it with no warning. Allow us to see it or its silhouette through walls (do the same to other persistent damaging effects on the ground from affixes while you are at it).
- Ghom, his Uber version, and Voracity. Their gas cloud is a wee bit ridiculous. I can maybe understand Ghom and his Uber version casting it, but allowing Voracity to use it in greater rifts with its infinite scaling power is a wee bit over the top. This ability forces the melee player base to use Mara's Kaleidoscope. (Also I find it a bit weird the graphic on the necklace in no way resembles a kaleidoscope.)
- I believe all rift guardians should spawn monster adds in some capacity. Most classes have an ability or a passive that triggers once a monster is killed or a number of enemies are hit. Forcing the player to kill the rift guardian at a handicapped pace that is counter-intuitive or counter-productive to their build isn't very fun or interesting and I believe adding more monsters to the boss fight would spice things up just fine. Here's another spicy idea... allow the rift guardian to spawn adds that cost him a certain amount of his HP, so group damaging builds can feel they are contributing as they kill adds in the boss fight.
- Erethon's charge attack eventually one-shots players after a certain greater rift level. The charge is practically unavoidable with the small warning it comes with currently.
Here's your chance to make an impact! What else could or would you add or negate from what I have mentioned? Maybe there's something else you wish to add as a suggestion or change to the current meta-game. What could make it better? Add your thoughts with some sort of suggested fix or remedy or change. Feedback with no suggestion is feedback, but if you want to provide good feedback, add in a suggestion or a comment about how it has impacted you as a player and how it could be improved upon.
I would appreciate if we could keep this thread strictly constructive and usable to the Blizzard devs so we can make this game the best it can be.
Im not a big fan of unavoidable damage, like jailor and electrify. I dont get why they added damage to jailor in the first place tbh.
I feel like any unavoidable high-dmg effect are just unfair and not fun. I got no problem with 1shot mechanics if they got a tell, and you can avoid it if you are good enough and paying attention.
Poison and arcane monsters are good designs. Lethal effects that can be avoided. Granted the arcane ones are just healingbeams in higher grifts, since you need the amulet to survive the jailor dmg.
Oh..and knockback. I didnt realise how annoying all those knockback effects actually are, until i tried Krelms bracers. The immunity to knockback is just soooo good.
Sadly, most builds require a spesific bracer to work, so you cant really use it. I would say, add a cooldown on knockback. Once hit by it, you are immune to the effect for a few seconds. A horde pack of those exploding fatguys (cant for the life of me remember the name) pretty much turn you into a pingpong ball, unable to do anything for a while.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can see what you see not. Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone. Whispering their hidden song.
Then you see what cannot be. Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind. Cast down into the Halls of the Blind
you bitched and moaned about just about every single available affix out there. i agree with some of your points, but bitching and moaning about ALL of them = l2p. your title should be how to make diablo 3 better easier
@garnok, appreciate the feedback. A lot of the items in the game if given the proper light of day would be great for surviving in the game in greater rifts to a point. But like you said, most builds require or recommend better damage-based items so you don't get stuck on the greater rift solely because of lack of damage. I feel like it is either go glass cannon and get lucky and rise to the top of the leader boards, or go a little more tanky and not show up on the leader boards.
@cying. I appreciate your opinion about me, but the thread is about how we can make the game more fun and interesting. I feel if you are going to add any feedback about the game, you should have a suggestion in place to help the people who made the game see it in, perhaps, a different light. We are throwing ideas around here. What would you change in greater rifts for your class of choice to have a more fun experience?
As much as I want to throw a mouse when lightning starts melting my sader or fire chains insta-splats my barb or my monk has to run away and wait for Ghom... what if we could just stand in them? What would be the challenge then? How do you threaten ranged then? If there is zero risk of failure, most people would burn out/lose interest in a few hours.
I think a few of you are missing the point of my OP, and perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough. Maybe some didn't even read it =\. What I am proposing isn't to remove every affix and make the game playable with your feet on the keyboard and mouse. I want a challenge in this game, but I don't want to be throttled by luck, chance, or something unavoidable. I'd rather look for ways to change current gameplay to be more pliable. I believe there is a difference between very little room for error and inevitable death with zero chance of success, with the latter containing zero fun elements. L2P does not apply when it is out of the players' hands on their chance of success. I agree with some of the recent posts' contents; I also disagree with some as well. Let me ask you a rhetorical question that may allow a bit of introspection on your opinions though. What percentage of players currently play Diablo 3 with a Zdps class in the group? If you don't play in a group and you play solo, how many use a follower with double unity and the cannot die token? Try playing the game without either of those for a few rifts. I would like to see the results of that, but I know that no one would tell the truth.
I agree with most of your points, they are well-stated. Every time I see fire chains + electrify + anything else when playing my barb, my anus gets prepared for destruction. Every time I hit a GR boss that is considered progression from my previous high, it is always Raiziel I face.. I really, really, really hate Raiziel.
I do agree that getting one shot with an unavoidable mechanic is not fun or interesting. However, I feel this way about all damage in GRifts. When a skeleton archer can one shot my sader, then the game is no longer challenging...it's punishing. Anything that can stop movement of my character should not cause damage (frozen/jailor). If I get caught in that, then the damage will come from the mobs hitting my dumb ass as I let myself get caught by it.
I would rather see damage dealt in GRifts cap out to some level that make me say "oh shit, that hurt" rather than "oh shit, I'm dead. What hit me?" The challenge to complete higher tiers would then be based on the ability to improve efficiency and stat improvements, rather than if I found a rift with more melee mobs and elites without instant damage spells.
I also think that this is where gems could be an improvement in jewelry by pushing leg gems into something that people can farm for in GRifts. The devs could create a new item (Gem Setting) that could act as the place to put legendary gems in jewelry. Then you could use the standard gems to increase immunity when socketed in rings and ammys. (red top tier = 5% fire reduction per gem, green = poison, blue = cold, purple = arcane, white = physical, orange = lightning). This could let you stack some immunity to help with uncertainty.
hold on here. you say you want it playable, but your descriptions clearly trend towards easier. luck and chance is the name of the game. they already have limitations of what affixes can and cant appear together on a monster. i play solo dh on s2 with no unity (most dhs do). i play solo hc sader on s2 with no unity (cant find 2). zdps class in a group is only required for HIGH grs. HIGH grs where you can one shot by everything are DESIGNED to be hard. in what world are we SUPPOSED to be able to do gr55's consistently? if you want to push grs, its going to get hard. thats the point. if were not talking about pushing grs, then these affixes are not a problem at all. when will you be happy? when blizzard nerfs affixes until you can do gr100 consistently? no, then youll wonder about gr200+.
SOME stuff like unavoidable instant death (jailer and POSSIBLY reflect) can prob use a redo, but MOST things are fine as they are. seeing as you listed MOST affixes with some kind of complaint attached, its safe to say youre asking for way too much.
zdps class in a group is only required for HIGH grs. HIGH grs where you can one shot by everything are DESIGNED to be hard. in what world are we SUPPOSED to be able to do gr55's consistently? if you want to push grs, its going to get hard. thats the point.
Arguably, everything beyond GR30 or so (where you can upgrade gems to rank 25 with reasonable comfort) is purely for the lulz. No game balance decisions should be made in order to improve the game beyond GR30, without extremely stringent assurance that they won't hurt the game up to that point.
id say above 35 or 37ish but i agree completely. higher can be done easily with full ancient gear. i assume theyll introduce overpowered gear in the future thatll take us higher and higher. but for now, they should not be nerfing stuff because people cant clear high grs consistently.
but to make a thread about making stuff easier and to defend it vehemently?! thats mind boggling to me.
I enjoy playing every class and play style in Diablo 3. Not only do I do this for fun, I do this to understand each class so I know how to synergize, empathize, and collaborate better with other people playing the game with me. Working together as a team in Diablo 3 is intriguing and very fun. I try to do research and devote time in a subject before I make a post to prevent skewed information or ignorant comments from escaping my lips or fingertips. I am sure everyone here has played the game to some extent like you and I cying. From what you just posted though, I don't believe you have enough information to make an educated response on the matter. Playing the game from one class' point of view =/= another class or every other class for that matter. Also, the difficulty of the current end game isn't so much "hard" as you describe. It is just an easy way for devs to halt players from proceeding. I think I see now the differing view you and I have of "end game." I believe it should be doable with lots of skill and you believe there should just be a brick wall you cannot get past. I respect that. I am merely suggesting changes to allow players to extend their skill sets further so the determining factor on completing a rift isn't wearing a certain necklace, using a follower with the unity + die token combo, or one person sacrificing their fun game play to allow three others to enjoy completing a high end greater rift.
I am perfectly content with others having differing views on the matter; I even asked for it! But I don't believe in leaving partial feedback without something to chew on. That is why I left suggestions on changes that would make the game more fun (again, solely in my opinion) for the entirety of the player base rather than a select few. I am sure some of my ideas are far-fetched, but I would like to think they are somewhat reasonable. It is like a negotiation for an item. I state what I think would be fair, then the seller/buyer would state their opinion on the matter and we would go from there.
I agree with your statement of the "you give someone an inch and they'll take a mile" type of thing, but I think there should also be a nicer, more subtle transition from doable to insta-death.
The main thing I hate right now is the trials. I wish you could just do like 5 keystones at a time or that you could just choose the level you want based on your highest trial cleared. The trials are so mind numbingly boring and repetitive.
actually ive spent/wasted way more time on this game than i like to admit. i have multiples of every single class and have played each one of their top tier builds extensively. i listed my two season 2 characters because they are the most current. i played 4 classes in season 1 and felt overwhelmed because i put a lot of time and effort into getting each to a healthy place on the leaderboards (5 leaderboards if you include achievements because im an achievement whore), but all my effort was put to shit when blizzard IDIOTICALLY decided to implement a huge patch including ancient items and changes to sets toward the end of season 1. i took a break from the game to study for a big test around this same time and basically only had about a week to rush all my characters back onto the leaderboard.
anyway, i agree with you completely that with skill and synergy (and luck but you dont agree with that one), people should be able to progress. groups are soloing 50s quite well which was unheard of before. some of it is clearly due to gr getting nerfed damage wise, but some of it is due to new strategies (zdps sader/wd replacing zdps monk). however, there has to be a cap to this as well. people should not be able to progress infinitely due to skill. this is a gear-centric game. there has to be a brick wall because without it were talking about infinity. i think our differing opinion is more WHERE that brick wall is not whether there should be one or not.
right now the brick wall is in a very appropriate place. im not on my desktop right now to check leaderboards, but i remember the 4 player leaderboard to be very high. 60ish? that is a solid place for the brick wall to be. as to the transition between doable to instant death, greater rift difficulty is exponential, whereas gear is linear. at a certain point, gear simply cant match gr difficulty unless gear becomes exponential as well (more %damage, %increases for main stat/resists/vit). its math.
anyway, please explain your reasoning to why you think the brick wall should be further than it is now. your proposed nerfs on affixes would just shift the leaderboards a bit higher. then what? have blizzard decrease gr damage again to shift higher? remove affixes entirely to shift it yet higher? i disagree with all of that.
I just got back into D3 after a good year or so break. I come back to all this crazy non sense on bosses. I have to agree with the stated post. A lot of these mechanics are just off and plain stupid.
GRift problems. There was a time when people disliked the indicators of molten, mortar and frozen. None of the one shot kills heavily occur on nonGRift modes so I don't really see the need to nerf the affixes.
@crying. As you stated; the grift scale is exponential while gear is more linear. This causing grifts to outscale gear, meaning you'll hit a brick wall eventually. I am ok with that. This brick wall happens when a perfect game (no deaths, perfect damage rotation, correct mobs giving maximum completion per time spent etc) still isnt enough to down the rift guardian. As this perfection is both improbable (requires insane luck) and impossible (no one can play the game 100% perfectly), the player always has something to work towards. The luck required as it is now, is in my opinion, too high. Too many rifts are insta-concede because of wrong affixes you literally cannot outplay. And that, I feel, is the problem; Even with perfect play you are unable to outplay a game mechanic.
To make this game more enjoyable, I feel these unavoidable mechanics should be changed to add some kind of counter play (for example change jailer to something like diablo's cage). Im not calling for the game to become easier, just to have more counter play. I'd love for blizzard to add more affixes, of which 1shots you (at high dificulty) IF you are unable to counter play it. One example of this is the arcane enchanted (lazers). As a DH (and every other class at high grift) these lazers 1shot you, but it was your fault getting hit by it to begin with.
changing the game like this reduces the amount of luck needed when doing grifts. Some rifts will always be better than others (correct pylons, better mob combination etc), but playing skillfully will still get you higher faster. As it is now, you will get a great rift eventually, it'll just take you a thousand painfull hours longer. As stated, you will eventually reach a point where your maximum damage output simply isnt high enough to beat the rift even with perfect play, but atleast you'll know you're stuck because of lacking gear, and not cause you can't be bothered spending forever searching for a rift even possible to clear.
TL:DR: I want the luck:skill ratio when doing grifts more skewed towards skill and, not luck, by adding more counterplay to elite affixes.
I came up with this idea on the official forum and i really think they need to start from the basics, communication with the community is the key, like Marvel heroes and some game does, otherwise its will be another off-topic fall into a forgotten, like we see on those many years alot of great ideas just gone, ppl even lose they time to make video and images in how to make Diablo 3 better, but is the same to talk with the wall.
I think its more a necessity and appeal than a idea but i'id love to see it even here on Diablofans or sort of like it.
If anyone like the idea plz endorse it, lets make the topic burn and see if we drag some attention and whats going to happen.
@cying Your comment along with OP thoughts shows the real problem with diablo. Lack of an end game goal, infinite gameplay with minor rewards and boredom.
The brick wall is not there because it' supposed to be but because blizzard don't know what else to offer to make it more appealing. Or perhaps they didn't expecting from us to hit that brick wall so soon and they are out of time to develop more content.
As humans beings we don't stop researching or exploring because of an invisible brick wall. As gamers or diablo players as well we don't stop playing when the credits rolls or the "you have died" screen pops.
Its in our nature to want and seek more specially when we know that theres no real end to the grinding.
You ask "why' and "then what"? More. Better. Instead of creating toons every season (their latest brick wall if I may) and doing the exact same thing over and over again with a few new legs here and there let us choose when to pull the plug. If i want to reach lets say gr680 let me reach it. Tune it appropriately.
I never understood why all the fuss with the jailer affix until I started playing a dh and everything started to one shot me. Great brick wall...
That's no fun at all or balanced if you ask me nor its fun to standing to the other side of the screen just randomly shooting missing all the action and the crits.
As with the op I agree many spells need to be toned down alot and as you say gear need to be upgraded exponential.
They did a really good first (baby) step with ancient items but as Jay would say they need to double it.
My recommendations for a better infinite gameplay:
1.tune the aforementioned elite affixes (see op) and dmg (5+ minutes for grguardian is boring)
2.improve the leveling curve and the paragon system: currently the only way to deal and sustain double dmg is to have the double stats (20k main and vitality). A figure theoretically impossible and finite when the exponential numbers caps you 5 or 10 gr lvs higher.
Paragon points need refinement. Its dated. Maybe 5 per lvl instead of 1. A bonus that will unlock every x levels ie +ar, chd, etc.
A sub bonus that will unlock when you have unlock all the previous ones that will benefit your class directly.
3. Gear improvement and rewards. Like gem upgrading every time you reach, complete or pass a new gr lvl you will have a chance to upgrade your gear beyond its current limits. More sockets, a 5th , 6th affix, +more %skill dmg etc. That will cost a serious amount of resources and it will bound to the gr lvl and your paragon lvl. Oh and whie we are at it give an extra cookie to those top10 in the leaderboards.
4. Runes. I won't talk about runewords but a combination of the suggested idea of the paragon system above. Under certain circumstances you will be able to blend 2 runes and /or different abilities to 1 with bonus effects.
5. More variety in adventure mode and gr maps. I think they working on that.
I think the above will give more juice to the gameplay for those who seek to infinitely pursue the evils of hell.
They won't solve the end game goal but at least will they give more comfort the to infinite dimension of the gameplay.
Many people could care less, I have friends who just finished the story unistalled it and never bothered with farming in d3v or adventure mode. But for all the rest who want to stop when they want to stop I think those are just some nice touches that will break the infinite exponential loophole (oh gr50 ok this is the end).
I wonder if blizzard runs internal tests on gr with chars with double or triple the live stats. That will tell alot about their vision.
I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to be able to beat every Rift Guardian. This is intended. You can't be geared for every boss, this is especially true for solo play. You have a better shot with a group, because each person can gear for different things.
So here is the problem I see with this thread, it appears to complain about solo play versus specific RGs. Well, there's a conflict with one of Blizzard's big stances with D3. The stance is that D3 is designed to be an online game that encourages collaboration. Unless the complaints state that the bosses can't be beaten with any strategic collaborative strategy, I think you're at an impasse. So remember they balance the game. If they dumb it down for solo to be beatable, then what happens to the balance with the multi-player game. I'll tell, you the answer, it becomes way too easy. This isn't a balanced solution.
Mind you, Blizzard has shown a lot of effort for releasing more and more powerful gear. The big example is M6. Everyone expected the 2.1.2 changes to be a nerf. Instead, what happened was a buff. This is expected with 2.2 as well. The updated Wizard set in PTR is 1 shotting very high RGs. So, if the changes requested in this thread occur, the next round of complaints will be that RG are too easy. With Blizzard focusing there efforts on making gear more powerful, it doesn't at all seam reasonable that any Nerf requests for any bosses seems likely. If they did, they would be adding resources to implement these requests while their other efforts in making the Nephalem characters more powerful would further complicate balancing.
I think if you want to help Blizzard with any balance issues, you should get involved in the PTR. Blizzard will be more receptive to changes that they are currently testing. Stating changes to 2.1.2 is like requesting Ford to add stability control on a Model T. That ship has sailed. They are working on 2.2 not 2.1.2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello, I consider myself a seasoned player of the Diablo franchise. I have a few suggestions that could improve the game mixed with some constructive feedback, whether the suggested improvement is to be trimmed, replaced, or simply thrown out. And finally, I have some questions directed at the Diablo 3 player base.
- Firstly let's talk about rift guardians, elites, champion packs, and the abilities they can spawn with. I do not FEEL some elite/champion affixes are fun in their nature. I also do not feel they test player skill. I feel they are merely here to block progress past a certain point in greater rift progression. I also feel the necklaces that prevent a certain school's damage and instead heal are REQUIRED past a certain point, preventing player individuality and assimilating common gear setups.
- Let's look at Jailer for our first example. If you manage to get to a certain level in greater rifts, they end up one-shotting you and there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot dodge it nor can you rely on them to cast it at certain times and use a skill to prevent the damage reliably. You are forced to wear the Countess necklace or fight the enemy with a ranged character from very far away and pray they a) don't have the fast affix, don't have the teleporter affix, or c) have reflect damage and you cannot see what you are attacking. I think if there was an effect like the bone prison Diablo herself casts under the player's feet with a fair bit of warning, this affix would be more fun/interesting. I won't dwell on each affix, so let's move along. Speaking of reflect damage...
- Reflect damage. There is very little time to react to stop attacking to prevent the ONE hit it takes to destroy your character, especially if you fire projectiles that will not be able to be stopped once the champion activates their murderous barrier. You cannot dodge it nor can you reliably avoid reflect damage without planning on stopping attacking very regularly. I feel it is not very fun when a mechanic exists forcing a player to stop attacking for an extended period of time. I feel this affix should be downright removed from the game as I cannot make a suggestion to flavorize it.
- Frozen. This affix has changed over the course of Diablo 3's life and I am afraid to say it is not a good change. I understand you want to give the player a nudge when Frozen has been activated under their feet so they know to move. I feel draining our HP at a very rapid pace that only gets quicker as we progress in greater rifts is not the answer I am afraid. I believe a certain percentage of their HP that is a static amount would be reasonable. I also feel it is a little difficult to spot Frozen on the ground the more players you add to the game or the more you throw other effects on the ground. Speaking of frozen, I feel the frozen inherent ability on the rift boss Coldsnap is a bit excessive. I feel if maybe he threw them out in waves and/or in a certain pattern, forcing the player to move a certain direction in a maze but still allowing the player ample time to damage the boss, would be more fun.
- Thunderstorm. I feel when lightning strikes in the game there should be a warning, not an immediate death screen. I also believe six or seven strikes of huge damage is a bit high. I feel it should also be a certain FAIR percentage of the player's HP if it is going to remain in the game. This affix and Electrified force players to wear the Xephirian amulet if they want to play roulette and get past a certain greater rift level. Make a cool visual effect over the monster's head appear before he/she/it casts the spell. A storm cloud or some very serious arcs of lightning appearing over their heads would be groovy, for example.
- Electrified. This affix disallows melee to engage in combat with certain elites/champions past a certain greater rift level. The player attacks and then receive a very, very high amount of damage, similar to reflect damage. I do not feel this ability belongs in the game. I understand the nostalgia behind it and Rakanishu, but I think it needs to go or the damage should be reasonable enough for melee to stand in the fight and contribute to the death of the monster pack.
- Fire chains. I feel as though this affix plagues my barbarian unless I use my Star of Azkaranth, which is yet another crutch and/or a roulette game. I understand the fire chains deactivate and reactivate every second or two, but it is not fun in my opinion because I cannot kill the monster pack in a reasonable amount of time even if I show the utmost care in avoiding its damage. We all get blasted the moment we touch the chain, especially if the monster teleports onto us. How is that fun? I want to see this affix in a more fun light, but I do not think disallowing a player from attacking the monster or group of monsters is going to happen without some form of a fire chain being present connecting the elites. I can see the Fire Chains doing damage to the player if they remain inside the enclosure connecting the chains. Outside the chains, the player should be fine. Raekor barbs shouldn't have to feel the need to skip this pack. Make the fire chain spawn point appear around the outside of the monster closest to his other pack-mates, allowing melee to hit the monster without fear of standing or passing through the monster's hit-box.
- Shielding. Yet another example of forcing a player to not attack a monster for a period of time. I do not get satisfaction or pleasure when I am forced to stop attacking a monster. I feel if I am skilled enough to dodge or work through whatever else he throws at me, I should be able to damage him as a reward, not be faced with a barrier that laughs at my character of choice. Melee should deal half damage to a shielded enemy with no reflected damage and any ranged projectile fired at shielded enemies should actually reflect a portion of the ability back to the originating player at a reduced avoidable speed.
- Molten. This forces the player to stand at their maximum hit-box range from the monster to not receive any fire damage, assuming they can attack without passing through a monster. For example, the way Raekor's set works disallows the player from having fun against this monster affix. Lower the damage and make it manageable or allow the monster to throw out molten explosions that deal less damage than the current molten explosion.
- Waller. The wall spell lasts ages and should be taken down to perhaps half of its duration, possibly with a faster cooldown to even out the nerf. I feel when walls exist blocking a player's exit without a proper escape skill that lasts the entire duration of Frozen, or poison enchanted for example, is not fun.
- Mortar. Make the visual on the ground more visible.
- Vortex. Throw the player to the other side of the champion pack rather than right on top of the champion pack.
- Teleport. Allows the monster to teleport anywhere on the player's screen, but not on top of them.
- Knockback. Throws the player back but does not reduce their movement speed.
- Plagued. I like how this works as it does increasing amounts of damage the longer the player stands in it, but I feel the duration of plagued lasts too long, eventually filling up the player's screen with nowhere to move.
- Health Link. This does not always work as intended, with some members of the affix group dying much sooner than others. I do not see this as a challenging affix nor is it very fun or interesting. I believe this could be improved upon but I cannot think of a fun change at the moment.
- Desecrator. This affix is fine the way it is. I find it interesting and fun.
- Arcane Enchanted. I like this affix as it currently exists in the game. However, I do not like how the beam is invisible when standing around a corner from where it is cast, then when we proceed to enter the room, we are annihilated by it with no warning. Allow us to see it or its silhouette through walls (do the same to other persistent damaging effects on the ground from affixes while you are at it).
- Ghom, his Uber version, and Voracity. Their gas cloud is a wee bit ridiculous. I can maybe understand Ghom and his Uber version casting it, but allowing Voracity to use it in greater rifts with its infinite scaling power is a wee bit over the top. This ability forces the melee player base to use Mara's Kaleidoscope. (Also I find it a bit weird the graphic on the necklace in no way resembles a kaleidoscope.)
- I believe all rift guardians should spawn monster adds in some capacity. Most classes have an ability or a passive that triggers once a monster is killed or a number of enemies are hit. Forcing the player to kill the rift guardian at a handicapped pace that is counter-intuitive or counter-productive to their build isn't very fun or interesting and I believe adding more monsters to the boss fight would spice things up just fine. Here's another spicy idea... allow the rift guardian to spawn adds that cost him a certain amount of his HP, so group damaging builds can feel they are contributing as they kill adds in the boss fight.
- Erethon's charge attack eventually one-shots players after a certain greater rift level. The charge is practically unavoidable with the small warning it comes with currently.
____________________________________________________________________
Here's your chance to make an impact! What else could or would you add or negate from what I have mentioned? Maybe there's something else you wish to add as a suggestion or change to the current meta-game. What could make it better? Add your thoughts with some sort of suggested fix or remedy or change. Feedback with no suggestion is feedback, but if you want to provide good feedback, add in a suggestion or a comment about how it has impacted you as a player and how it could be improved upon.
I would appreciate if we could keep this thread strictly constructive and usable to the Blizzard devs so we can make this game the best it can be.
(My original Battlenet post is here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/16544224271)
Im not a big fan of unavoidable damage, like jailor and electrify. I dont get why they added damage to jailor in the first place tbh.
I feel like any unavoidable high-dmg effect are just unfair and not fun. I got no problem with 1shot mechanics if they got a tell, and you can avoid it if you are good enough and paying attention.
Poison and arcane monsters are good designs. Lethal effects that can be avoided. Granted the arcane ones are just healingbeams in higher grifts, since you need the amulet to survive the jailor dmg.
Oh..and knockback. I didnt realise how annoying all those knockback effects actually are, until i tried Krelms bracers. The immunity to knockback is just soooo good.
Sadly, most builds require a spesific bracer to work, so you cant really use it. I would say, add a cooldown on knockback. Once hit by it, you are immune to the effect for a few seconds. A horde pack of those exploding fatguys (cant for the life of me remember the name) pretty much turn you into a pingpong ball, unable to do anything for a while.
you bitched and moaned about just about every single available affix out there. i agree with some of your points, but bitching and moaning about ALL of them = l2p. your title should be how to make diablo 3
bettereasier@garnok, appreciate the feedback. A lot of the items in the game if given the proper light of day would be great for surviving in the game in greater rifts to a point. But like you said, most builds require or recommend better damage-based items so you don't get stuck on the greater rift solely because of lack of damage. I feel like it is either go glass cannon and get lucky and rise to the top of the leader boards, or go a little more tanky and not show up on the leader boards.
@cying. I appreciate your opinion about me, but the thread is about how we can make the game more fun and interesting. I feel if you are going to add any feedback about the game, you should have a suggestion in place to help the people who made the game see it in, perhaps, a different light. We are throwing ideas around here. What would you change in greater rifts for your class of choice to have a more fun experience?
As much as I want to throw a mouse when lightning starts melting my sader or fire chains insta-splats my barb or my monk has to run away and wait for Ghom... what if we could just stand in them? What would be the challenge then? How do you threaten ranged then? If there is zero risk of failure, most people would burn out/lose interest in a few hours.
I think a few of you are missing the point of my OP, and perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough. Maybe some didn't even read it =\. What I am proposing isn't to remove every affix and make the game playable with your feet on the keyboard and mouse. I want a challenge in this game, but I don't want to be throttled by luck, chance, or something unavoidable. I'd rather look for ways to change current gameplay to be more pliable. I believe there is a difference between very little room for error and inevitable death with zero chance of success, with the latter containing zero fun elements. L2P does not apply when it is out of the players' hands on their chance of success. I agree with some of the recent posts' contents; I also disagree with some as well. Let me ask you a rhetorical question that may allow a bit of introspection on your opinions though. What percentage of players currently play Diablo 3 with a Zdps class in the group? If you don't play in a group and you play solo, how many use a follower with double unity and the cannot die token? Try playing the game without either of those for a few rifts. I would like to see the results of that, but I know that no one would tell the truth.
I agree with most of your points, they are well-stated. Every time I see fire chains + electrify + anything else when playing my barb, my anus gets prepared for destruction. Every time I hit a GR boss that is considered progression from my previous high, it is always Raiziel I face.. I really, really, really hate Raiziel.
Battle.net Profile / Diablo Progress Profile
I do agree that getting one shot with an unavoidable mechanic is not fun or interesting. However, I feel this way about all damage in GRifts. When a skeleton archer can one shot my sader, then the game is no longer challenging...it's punishing. Anything that can stop movement of my character should not cause damage (frozen/jailor). If I get caught in that, then the damage will come from the mobs hitting my dumb ass as I let myself get caught by it.
I would rather see damage dealt in GRifts cap out to some level that make me say "oh shit, that hurt" rather than "oh shit, I'm dead. What hit me?" The challenge to complete higher tiers would then be based on the ability to improve efficiency and stat improvements, rather than if I found a rift with more melee mobs and elites without instant damage spells.
I also think that this is where gems could be an improvement in jewelry by pushing leg gems into something that people can farm for in GRifts. The devs could create a new item (Gem Setting) that could act as the place to put legendary gems in jewelry. Then you could use the standard gems to increase immunity when socketed in rings and ammys. (red top tier = 5% fire reduction per gem, green = poison, blue = cold, purple = arcane, white = physical, orange = lightning). This could let you stack some immunity to help with uncertainty.
hold on here. you say you want it playable, but your descriptions clearly trend towards easier. luck and chance is the name of the game. they already have limitations of what affixes can and cant appear together on a monster. i play solo dh on s2 with no unity (most dhs do). i play solo hc sader on s2 with no unity (cant find 2). zdps class in a group is only required for HIGH grs. HIGH grs where you can one shot by everything are DESIGNED to be hard. in what world are we SUPPOSED to be able to do gr55's consistently? if you want to push grs, its going to get hard. thats the point. if were not talking about pushing grs, then these affixes are not a problem at all. when will you be happy? when blizzard nerfs affixes until you can do gr100 consistently? no, then youll wonder about gr200+.
SOME stuff like unavoidable instant death (jailer and POSSIBLY reflect) can prob use a redo, but MOST things are fine as they are. seeing as you listed MOST affixes with some kind of complaint attached, its safe to say youre asking for way too much.
Arguably, everything beyond GR30 or so (where you can upgrade gems to rank 25 with reasonable comfort) is purely for the lulz. No game balance decisions should be made in order to improve the game beyond GR30, without extremely stringent assurance that they won't hurt the game up to that point.
id say above 35 or 37ish but i agree completely. higher can be done easily with full ancient gear. i assume theyll introduce overpowered gear in the future thatll take us higher and higher. but for now, they should not be nerfing stuff because people cant clear high grs consistently.
but to make a thread about making stuff easier and to defend it vehemently?! thats mind boggling to me.
I enjoy playing every class and play style in Diablo 3. Not only do I do this for fun, I do this to understand each class so I know how to synergize, empathize, and collaborate better with other people playing the game with me. Working together as a team in Diablo 3 is intriguing and very fun. I try to do research and devote time in a subject before I make a post to prevent skewed information or ignorant comments from escaping my lips or fingertips. I am sure everyone here has played the game to some extent like you and I cying. From what you just posted though, I don't believe you have enough information to make an educated response on the matter. Playing the game from one class' point of view =/= another class or every other class for that matter. Also, the difficulty of the current end game isn't so much "hard" as you describe. It is just an easy way for devs to halt players from proceeding. I think I see now the differing view you and I have of "end game." I believe it should be doable with lots of skill and you believe there should just be a brick wall you cannot get past. I respect that. I am merely suggesting changes to allow players to extend their skill sets further so the determining factor on completing a rift isn't wearing a certain necklace, using a follower with the unity + die token combo, or one person sacrificing their fun game play to allow three others to enjoy completing a high end greater rift.
I am perfectly content with others having differing views on the matter; I even asked for it! But I don't believe in leaving partial feedback without something to chew on. That is why I left suggestions on changes that would make the game more fun (again, solely in my opinion) for the entirety of the player base rather than a select few. I am sure some of my ideas are far-fetched, but I would like to think they are somewhat reasonable. It is like a negotiation for an item. I state what I think would be fair, then the seller/buyer would state their opinion on the matter and we would go from there.
I agree with your statement of the "you give someone an inch and they'll take a mile" type of thing, but I think there should also be a nicer, more subtle transition from doable to insta-death.
The main thing I hate right now is the trials. I wish you could just do like 5 keystones at a time or that you could just choose the level you want based on your highest trial cleared. The trials are so mind numbingly boring and repetitive.
actually ive spent/wasted way more time on this game than i like to admit. i have multiples of every single class and have played each one of their top tier builds extensively. i listed my two season 2 characters because they are the most current. i played 4 classes in season 1 and felt overwhelmed because i put a lot of time and effort into getting each to a healthy place on the leaderboards (5 leaderboards if you include achievements because im an achievement whore), but all my effort was put to shit when blizzard IDIOTICALLY decided to implement a huge patch including ancient items and changes to sets toward the end of season 1. i took a break from the game to study for a big test around this same time and basically only had about a week to rush all my characters back onto the leaderboard.
anyway, i agree with you completely that with skill and synergy (and luck but you dont agree with that one), people should be able to progress. groups are soloing 50s quite well which was unheard of before. some of it is clearly due to gr getting nerfed damage wise, but some of it is due to new strategies (zdps sader/wd replacing zdps monk). however, there has to be a cap to this as well. people should not be able to progress infinitely due to skill. this is a gear-centric game. there has to be a brick wall because without it were talking about infinity. i think our differing opinion is more WHERE that brick wall is not whether there should be one or not.
right now the brick wall is in a very appropriate place. im not on my desktop right now to check leaderboards, but i remember the 4 player leaderboard to be very high. 60ish? that is a solid place for the brick wall to be. as to the transition between doable to instant death, greater rift difficulty is exponential, whereas gear is linear. at a certain point, gear simply cant match gr difficulty unless gear becomes exponential as well (more %damage, %increases for main stat/resists/vit). its math.
anyway, please explain your reasoning to why you think the brick wall should be further than it is now. your proposed nerfs on affixes would just shift the leaderboards a bit higher. then what? have blizzard decrease gr damage again to shift higher? remove affixes entirely to shift it yet higher? i disagree with all of that.
I just got back into D3 after a good year or so break. I come back to all this crazy non sense on bosses. I have to agree with the stated post. A lot of these mechanics are just off and plain stupid.
GRift problems. There was a time when people disliked the indicators of molten, mortar and frozen. None of the one shot kills heavily occur on nonGRift modes so I don't really see the need to nerf the affixes.
@crying. As you stated; the grift scale is exponential while gear is more linear. This causing grifts to outscale gear, meaning you'll hit a brick wall eventually. I am ok with that. This brick wall happens when a perfect game (no deaths, perfect damage rotation, correct mobs giving maximum completion per time spent etc) still isnt enough to down the rift guardian. As this perfection is both improbable (requires insane luck) and impossible (no one can play the game 100% perfectly), the player always has something to work towards. The luck required as it is now, is in my opinion, too high. Too many rifts are insta-concede because of wrong affixes you literally cannot outplay. And that, I feel, is the problem; Even with perfect play you are unable to outplay a game mechanic.
To make this game more enjoyable, I feel these unavoidable mechanics should be changed to add some kind of counter play (for example change jailer to something like diablo's cage). Im not calling for the game to become easier, just to have more counter play. I'd love for blizzard to add more affixes, of which 1shots you (at high dificulty) IF you are unable to counter play it. One example of this is the arcane enchanted (lazers). As a DH (and every other class at high grift) these lazers 1shot you, but it was your fault getting hit by it to begin with.
changing the game like this reduces the amount of luck needed when doing grifts. Some rifts will always be better than others (correct pylons, better mob combination etc), but playing skillfully will still get you higher faster. As it is now, you will get a great rift eventually, it'll just take you a thousand painfull hours longer. As stated, you will eventually reach a point where your maximum damage output simply isnt high enough to beat the rift even with perfect play, but atleast you'll know you're stuck because of lacking gear, and not cause you can't be bothered spending forever searching for a rift even possible to clear.
TL:DR: I want the luck:skill ratio when doing grifts more skewed towards skill and, not luck, by adding more counterplay to elite affixes.
I came up with this idea on the official forum and i really think they need to start from the basics, communication with the community is the key, like Marvel heroes and some game does, otherwise its will be another off-topic fall into a forgotten, like we see on those many years alot of great ideas just gone, ppl even lose they time to make video and images in how to make Diablo 3 better, but is the same to talk with the wall.
I think its more a necessity and appeal than a idea but i'id love to see it even here on Diablofans or sort of like it.
If anyone like the idea plz endorse it, lets make the topic burn and see if we drag some attention and whats going to happen.
@cying Your comment along with OP thoughts shows the real problem with diablo. Lack of an end game goal, infinite gameplay with minor rewards and boredom.
The brick wall is not there because it' supposed to be but because blizzard don't know what else to offer to make it more appealing. Or perhaps they didn't expecting from us to hit that brick wall so soon and they are out of time to develop more content.
As humans beings we don't stop researching or exploring because of an invisible brick wall. As gamers or diablo players as well we don't stop playing when the credits rolls or the "you have died" screen pops.
Its in our nature to want and seek more specially when we know that theres no real end to the grinding.
You ask "why' and "then what"? More. Better. Instead of creating toons every season (their latest brick wall if I may) and doing the exact same thing over and over again with a few new legs here and there let us choose when to pull the plug. If i want to reach lets say gr680 let me reach it. Tune it appropriately.
I never understood why all the fuss with the jailer affix until I started playing a dh and everything started to one shot me. Great brick wall...
That's no fun at all or balanced if you ask me nor its fun to standing to the other side of the screen just randomly shooting missing all the action and the crits.
As with the op I agree many spells need to be toned down alot and as you say gear need to be upgraded exponential.
They did a really good first (baby) step with ancient items but as Jay would say they need to double it.
My recommendations for a better infinite gameplay:
1.tune the aforementioned elite affixes (see op) and dmg (5+ minutes for grguardian is boring)
2.improve the leveling curve and the paragon system: currently the only way to deal and sustain double dmg is to have the double stats (20k main and vitality). A figure theoretically impossible and finite when the exponential numbers caps you 5 or 10 gr lvs higher.
Paragon points need refinement. Its dated. Maybe 5 per lvl instead of 1. A bonus that will unlock every x levels ie +ar, chd, etc.
A sub bonus that will unlock when you have unlock all the previous ones that will benefit your class directly.
3. Gear improvement and rewards. Like gem upgrading every time you reach, complete or pass a new gr lvl you will have a chance to upgrade your gear beyond its current limits. More sockets, a 5th , 6th affix, +more %skill dmg etc. That will cost a serious amount of resources and it will bound to the gr lvl and your paragon lvl. Oh and whie we are at it give an extra cookie to those top10 in the leaderboards.
4. Runes. I won't talk about runewords but a combination of the suggested idea of the paragon system above. Under certain circumstances you will be able to blend 2 runes and /or different abilities to 1 with bonus effects.
5. More variety in adventure mode and gr maps. I think they working on that.
I think the above will give more juice to the gameplay for those who seek to infinitely pursue the evils of hell.
They won't solve the end game goal but at least will they give more comfort the to infinite dimension of the gameplay.
Many people could care less, I have friends who just finished the story unistalled it and never bothered with farming in d3v or adventure mode. But for all the rest who want to stop when they want to stop I think those are just some nice touches that will break the infinite exponential loophole (oh gr50 ok this is the end).
I wonder if blizzard runs internal tests on gr with chars with double or triple the live stats. That will tell alot about their vision.
I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to be able to beat every Rift Guardian. This is intended. You can't be geared for every boss, this is especially true for solo play. You have a better shot with a group, because each person can gear for different things.
So here is the problem I see with this thread, it appears to complain about solo play versus specific RGs. Well, there's a conflict with one of Blizzard's big stances with D3. The stance is that D3 is designed to be an online game that encourages collaboration. Unless the complaints state that the bosses can't be beaten with any strategic collaborative strategy, I think you're at an impasse. So remember they balance the game. If they dumb it down for solo to be beatable, then what happens to the balance with the multi-player game. I'll tell, you the answer, it becomes way too easy. This isn't a balanced solution.
Mind you, Blizzard has shown a lot of effort for releasing more and more powerful gear. The big example is M6. Everyone expected the 2.1.2 changes to be a nerf. Instead, what happened was a buff. This is expected with 2.2 as well. The updated Wizard set in PTR is 1 shotting very high RGs. So, if the changes requested in this thread occur, the next round of complaints will be that RG are too easy. With Blizzard focusing there efforts on making gear more powerful, it doesn't at all seam reasonable that any Nerf requests for any bosses seems likely. If they did, they would be adding resources to implement these requests while their other efforts in making the Nephalem characters more powerful would further complicate balancing.
I think if you want to help Blizzard with any balance issues, you should get involved in the PTR. Blizzard will be more receptive to changes that they are currently testing. Stating changes to 2.1.2 is like requesting Ford to add stability control on a Model T. That ship has sailed. They are working on 2.2 not 2.1.2.