• 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant
    Quote from wiwh»

    Quote from Shurgosa

    We got your point Shurgosa. It's just not interesting in the present discussion, as you are asking for a different game entirely. Here, we are talking about a new type of affix and its immediate consequence on diablo 3's current iteration of patch 2.4. We are not talking about what Diablo 3 could have been, or failed to be.
    Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
    Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
    That is correct. Thank you. We are talking about a new affix (the boost to % damage..) and its immediate consequence on D3 as of 2.4
    we are not talking about what possibly could be or failed to be. That is the issue. Nobody of note IS talking about that.
    instead the devs take a game, D3 version 2.3, take a few items from that game and give them a new stat that boosts skill damage by 100%.
    and then because before they happened to add that boost, there was basically nothing at all, they think that they have "added to the game". Or they think that having a few items that boost damage is better than just one. and that adding it is the right way to go without question.
    Then when Quin comes along and points out one of several reasons why this is not correct when viewing the issue in an abstract way, nobody understands. they have already convinced themselves that 2 items that do that is an improvement over 1. then they are unable to think any further.
    who in their right mind would say "don't add items that boost skill damage..." I DARE you to answer this question honestly. WHO would say "dont do it. hmm?
    I'll tell you who. The person who can want more from the game. More for it than "slap some damage on an item and the players will clap and cheer in January."
    That's who would say don't do it. The smart and passionate ones. The ones who look at D3 and see that it could be better, and can expand upon this notion in a multitude of ways.
    Diablo 3 is made by people who say "yea put it in, and any of the concerns brought up we can just say to the players "we feel you, we get you, we understand......" and that will handle all of the sloppy remainder of our careless "improvement"
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant
    Quote from Nightshade1233»

    So... Let's see how the comparison should have been:

    Diablo 3 PvE compared to Heartstone SOLO ADVENTURES and Starcraft SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN, that way it would have made sense!


    Comparing a PvE game with a PvP game makes no sense.

    - Of course in a PvP game there is NO PERFECT BUILD (if it is decently programmed) because the metagame (the way players study the game and prepare to counter the most prominent builds/decks/ways to play) continues to shift or cycle.


    - In a PvE game the metagame is pretty much fixed, once you find the most effective way to deal with the computer, it is that, unless new factors are brought in (like an update of the AI, of skills or of balance). Being it even SLIGHTLY better than others or exceedingle better, doesn't matter.


    Now the cmparison with WoW.

    - No sense in comparing Diablo 3 to WoW PvP (see above).

    - Comparing to Raid WoW:

    In WoW the classes have become pretty much interchangeable and the builds too. Everything is pretty much doable as long as you have 2-4 tanks + 3-5 healers and 5-16 DpS in your raid. Even in that "chaos" having the widest range of character is generally the "best way to go" because you have the widest variety of buffs and the right tool for every sitation.


    But let's see the itemization (I stopped playing at Wrath of the Lich King expansion) The itemization was pretty much at the levels of Diablo 3 Vanilla. You looked for the same stats all the time and the items handed them to you every time because the items had fixed stats. All you had to do was adapt your skills to the effects of the Tier Set you were using. This means pretty much having the same build for every spec.

    Ok, some of the classes benefited from multiple builds, but it as pretty much because they had different possible roles, for example the Druid could be a tank, a healer, a melee DpS or a Ranged DpS, but for every one of those roles there was like just one "most" effective build, with very small variations.
    Now I don't know how it evolved with Pandaria, Warlords and the upcoming Legion, but I don't think it will be much different.


    About the raid strategies.

    Raid bosses behaviour is dependent on how the AI is programmed and if you stretch the term of "best build" then there are very few strategies used to kill a boss and most raid groups stick to those, as much as Diablo 3 stick to a single build that has the best performances.


    So...

    Now please... Can we return to the main topic?


    We never left the main topic, the main topic is items are boring, what could be fun?
    you and others around you simply strive to ignore any discussion or claim it false if it happens to not have anything to do with items in a single player game that is of the same genre.....
    the main topic is that items and the players choosing between them is becoming stale and automatic and flavorless....just like how your vision of being locked in Starcraft single player vs a hodge podge unchanging basic card dealing Innkeeper....would be stale and thankfully, unlike you are prepared to accept, the entire rest of both of those games exist and are immediately and forever playable and enjoyable.....
    I'm sorry that you cannot see the issue for what it is and think outside the square and apply what you think about to potential solutions
    So far in this thread I have heard:
    -We cant use anything that has to do with PVP, to circumvent the issue,
    -We can use games if they are a different genre, to circumvent the issue,
    -Wyatt Cheng "knows more about it" than Quin
    and
    -certain players don't see and issue, and so there is no issue...
    It's really heartbreaking to be honest...especially when in your next paragraph you look at a tiny cross section in WoW, the items, and say "The itemization was pretty much at the levels of Diablo 3 Vanilla" are you admitting that Diablo 3 is doing OK if it compares to a small slice of a small portion of a different game? or is the comparison void because "PeeVeePee" ?
    Not to mention you're wrong anyway... items in Wow had many occurrences in its item landscape that were WAY more interesting, situation and unique than Diablo 3 Vanilla, reforging came and went, items were continuously added to the game professions yielded wild and wacky contraptions etc,etc....
    High end items had interesting special powers, giving you creative boosts to certain situations....
    ..........OH but lets ignore all of that. and then lets say something like "oh its a different genre / game / it's PVP.....yes that's a good line of reasoning..."
    lets look at a cross section of a several year old game, ignore everything around it, including the flair and the actual interesting features of items specifically....then come up with an excuse that seems to make sense....its an RPG.......not an ARPG. there that will do. it has subscribers.....
    That should justify Diablo 3 items.
    What's next? We cant look anywhere for examples unless the game begins with the letter D?
    My god, what happened to this place....

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant
    Quote from Fyrsey»

    Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.

    OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
    MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"

    Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.

    As you examine this idea that the things you hope to capitalize on change from moment to moment, you see that these games "run themselves", and they surge forward and remain popular and develop into professional past times. and they command floorspace at conventions for intrigued players and audience members. You can see where D3 falls short.

    D3 has no "eureka" moments. you just plod forward like a fucking moron searching for green percentages instead of red ones, delivered in the most boring way possible. Trifecta or +damage. I'd know I was that fucking moron and I will be that moron again when the patch finally hits. I'll play the game for a bit and realize its just more of the same. its as satisfying as sucking the salt of a chicken mcnugget and throwing it away.

    Wyatt Cheng fails to see the bigger picture.

    Here is a quote from his write up:

    ---------------------
    "I understand Quin's critique and totally get where he's coming from. Putting large skill bonuses means you can't cube the item and reconfigure them around as much."
    ----------------------

    So Wyatt understands that finding and choosing a piece with more damage automatically reduces the average appeal of all other items in the game for a player. Then he says this:

    ----------------------------
    If we were to increase the damage of base skills and lower legendary item +%s it gets the number where it needs to be for that configuration, but also affects every other configuration.
    ----------------------------

    What he is doing is alluding to one specific suggestion of Quins, shifting damage off of individual items and placing them on skills.
    Then his is pointing out a flaw laced within that niche solution and using the flaw to ignore the ENTIRE basis of the fucking complaint.

    THEN HE JUSTIFIES THIS IDIOTIC SHUTDOWN BY SAYING THIS:

    Having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT. We love that. But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better than the others you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".

    this is the part everyone needs to pay attention to. Wyatt Cheng said this. here I'll quote it a few times so its painfully clear.

    having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
    having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.
    having lots of toys to play around with and configure in different ways is GREAT.

    But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
    But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better
    But what will inevitably happen is if any one of those builds is 10% better

    you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
    you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".
    you don't get an increase the variety, you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".


    Yep. And that's exactly the issue that Quin was trying to point out in his video
    and exactly what many MANY have said in the Official general discussion forum for years.
    and exactly what should have been mined from the players feed back before the fucking game was released. especially when its the other games from their stable that taught us this concept of "no best build"

    When a THING is better than the rest of your THINGS.........you end up with a decrease in variety due to there being a "right answer".

    I've read his post over and over and over again.
    I've studied the sentences and thought heavily on how the weapons and the builds interact as he wanders around Raekors and the Fury of the Vanquished Peak weapon and try as I might its nothing more than a laughably shallow and worthless deflection of the bigger issue that they refuse to acknowledge.

    When players see bigger damage, they grab it and everything else in that moment and forever forward, is obsolete. It's a plague of a disease that destroys the potential of Diablo 3, while a laundry list of other games are virtually immune. and they're being created just down the fucking hallway.
    Every blue post is the same, just little buzzwords meant to invoke a sense of compassion in the heart of the angry critic.
    And thanks for letting us swear on this forum, its very refreshing.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant

    Why bother? anything I type in reply you're just going to say "It's horrible.." and "you are glad I'm not working on D3 haha..."


    The pvp in your head is a train-wreck.

    The IDEA of pvp as it covers decades of gaming and spans countless fan-bases and organizations and teams and genres of games is not.

    PVP in D3 could be anything they imagine it to be, and instead they imagine it to be nothing at all. Just 4 players in brawling room hitting each-other. Did not even put so much as a a fucking score board up for Christ's sake. Because your version of PVP is a train-wreck and their attempted version was an unpolished log of my shit, does not even tarnish one molecule of the globe spanning Idea of Players competing with other players. an idea that their other games took and ran to the end zone for points.


    And as far as the pathetic idea they are gearing up for next year, this putting a few hundred % damage of a skill on a handful of items and calling it a day and patting themselves on the back over it...well....

    The bulk of the player base seems to think this is wonderful added content everyone should be thankful for so when they just roll it out as it is to please the masses and ignore Quin's video you will know that its just par for the course.

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant
    Quote from Demonmonger»

    Why did this turn into SC2 and Hearthstone talk?

    When I happened to use them to describe elements of roleplaying/strategy games that incite discussion and competition and learning and curiosity and specialization. Five things that Diablo 3, weapons and items in particular, seem to cheerfully lack......
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Quin's Itemization Rant
    Quote from wiwh»

    Quote from Shurgosa»

    Quote from Fyrsey»

    Frankly, I can't really think of any other game where this would be different. There're always top-builds. Tried being in the tops. Boring. Staying in the 'gray zone' ever since for fun and embracing all varieties of builds :3 Quite new to d3, but not gonna change my attitude here. And tops seem to be occupied by bots in d3 anyway. Don't think they care about variety. Casual players and new-comers have got much choice here so far.




    OK so. None of this is a personal attack against you....but here it is:
    MANY games do not suffer from this disease of "best build"

    Starcraft did not have best units......Hearthstone does not have best cards........and Wow does not have a best arena or raid composition.


    You can't compare these with diablo. Starcraft is a strategy game: you adapt to your opponent. If your opponent does strictly the same thing all the time, you will find one best way to beat him (e.g. in the campaign).
    Hearthstone's "campaign" mode suffers from the very same thing: for every boss, you have one best deck to defeat it.

    yes you can compare the two games despite them being different genres. why then can programmers mix the elements of first person shooters and roleplaying games at all? why did they make so many guns in borderlands? why is Deus Ex even a thing? why are there classes in Team Fortress classic? Isn't there a law against mixing genres? what good can mixing genres even do? why does destiny and call of duty and modern warfare and all that shit have "loadouts and ranks and stats and experience and levels? how was that possible?
    why do situations where the Hearthstone AI does the exact same thing every time reinforce your argument and destroy mine when the situation you describe is hardly even possible without being able to choose what cards both you and him will draw? why is that?
    In the case of starcrafts campaign, you may coast through campaign mode and find the AI doing the same thing over and over again....
    But then you have to ignore the entire player vs player portion of the game, the portion upon which the legacy of the game was built. why the hell would you do that? why would you not see the good portion of the whole game as you state exactly "adapt to your opponent" why?
    Why ignore the decade spanning legacy of starcraft PVP and latch on to the short comings of its AI????
    and yet.... when you fight the same brain dead enemies in D3 year in year out....thats perfectly OK? why?
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on The State of Diablo 3 (Video)

    OH I think comparisons to WoW are absolutely justified and beyond that...extremely healthy for Diablo 3...so thanks for bringing them into the spot light...Arguments otherwise have almost no merit, because in my mind when I view WoW and speak of WoW, I see a game that has attracted some of the most hardcore professional elitist jerk raid master 5000's ever born. And it did so with a big enough bone for them to chew on for years, never mind the sub fee and how many hundreds of millions of dollars it made along the way. I would predict you have about 10 times the play time and about 10 times the skill in WoW as I do, so you and I could probably harp on about it over drinks for hours on end...Along side that, WoW created a piddly little child's adventure while they trip over their shoelaces on the way up through Razor Fen Downs. In short when I view wow I see the strengths of it, that were not respected nearly as much as they should have been, and could have been, with the departments probably being within shouting distance...


    WoW was the embodiment of a game that invited 5 year olds and within the exact same game engine and rule-set demanded players to devote, if they so wished it, several thousand actual hours logged in game, and god only knows how many out of game doing calculations and discussing arena comps.


    And you are very correct in being wary of making things easy and perhaps making them to easy and drawing a line of distinction. And you are correct about it being hard to level either from 1-60 or from 1-100. But you are only correct WITH that wariness and WITH that consideration and WITH this discussion. Wariness and consideration and discussion that the team down in California either never had or completely failed to capitalize on.


    I am not correct when I assert they need to take element X from WoW or difficulty Y. But I am correct when I choose to discuss and draw from it and think about it....the elements that one can be correct on, are things like your statement of "interesting" and my statement of "exciting"


    if the devs realized this, We would not all be wearing the same boring as fuck predictable endgame set with emeralds in our weapons with zero alternative, with piles of skills and runes sitting almost completely ignored for months if not years on end, when the entire foundation of Diablo 3 is the exciting growth and exploration of skills and items. Everyone dressing the same way farming infinite paragon levels that grant +5 dexterity 2 thousand times in a row forever...as if thats how far APRGs have come in the past 15 years....such a ridiculous premise should have been laughed out of the meeting room years before the game ever hit the shelf.....to think we just barely got here.....just think about that.


    I've said this before and I will say it again. it makes me sick and sad to see how easily the playerbase drums up good ideas that easily destroy the shit baked into D3, and your video does exactly that; you and your cronies, and the mods here and the pro players over there and the devoted fans over in official GD, they come up with amazing ideas and have great debates and coin up these ideas that would serve D3 until the end of time....and here we all sit waiting for Blizzcon to give us a tavern talk that will almost certainly be a let down.


    for some reason the devs allowed the absolute entirety of levels 1-69 both inside and outside of seasons to become completely trivialized. it is boring and predictable and pointless. So yes you are correct in your assessment that the only solution is endgame...it appears they have sadly made it so...

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on PSA: Just to clear some confusion
    Quote from cabynum»

    I am still confused as to why this is considered cheating. I didn't use the exploit, I was working when I heard about it, scheduled with my friends to do the exploit, then found it an hour later that they were going to hotfix it and punish the exploiters. Too bad for me.


    However, I don't see this as an exploit, much less a cheat. How is using game mechanics to your advantage cheating? A similar example from WoW(Vanilla): UBRS drakes; line of sighting their aoe by stacking your 40 man raid in a corner of a door jam. This is using game mechanis: line of site, and a doorway, to progress. This was just a strat. How is it any different than than the blood shard thing? It isn't.


    Also, another example of exploiting game mechanics: having set bonuses for 1 class whose damage stats are separate multipliers as opposed to other classes set pieces being additive bonuses. This set up a certain class, DH, to be the best dps where the other classes couldn't compete because their set bonuses were additive and not separately multiplicative. Should all DH's from season 2 get punished for exploiting a bug in game mechanics to their advantage?


    As a side note, capping the max bloodshards that drop to 250 for every rift level above, what is it? like 45 or something? to fix the bloodshard bug is ridiculous; as evidenced by my ridicule.


    Also, I think there may be a bug with wizards and slow time bubble damage and pain enhancer gem. See guys doing crazy damage from that gem with the time bubble buff when they have 2.2 million stat sheet dps buffed not counting elemental damage modifiers, and no +physical damage. If anyone else could test this out, I don't have a wizard, to see what is going on, that would be great.


    This is actually pretty fascinating. The only reply I can muster is that I takes all the intellect of a human mind to decipher the answer to that question "will I get banned?".

    Rather than blather on about stories winding all the way back to Everquest and Ultima Online, And how once upon a time a pro gamer Athene triple checked a crazy boss "strategy" with a GM AND screen-shotted the conversation AND STILL had the kill wound back and nullified,

    I'll just say answering the question "will I get banned?" is more of a craft than a science.


    When I view the blood shard situation in this thread, I'm not even the least bit surprised to hear that bans were issued, because of how my mind processes all the little aspects of it.

    I'm also not at all surprised to hear the poem of silly fuck ups associated with the list of previous exploits and "situations" as the came up in D3...

    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Diablo III MOBA
    Food for thought indeed. I've been rattling and prattling about this on Official Forums.....The jist, of it to me is that they are squandering unthinkable potential not exhibiting PVP in the D3 engine, in the actual game. Diablo 2's legacy was basically built on the back of its player vs player combat. Hit detection notwithstanding, Diablo 3 has such fine tuned player control it arguably eats LoL for breakfast.

    They gave us brawling...sure..but you'd think they do so much as give a god-damn Score board??....they did not even do that.

    Tomorrow Im gonna hunt around the internet for some un-official D3 PVP organizations...I've glanced at them a time or two...they have gone so far as prohibited certain runes against certain comps....its interesting to look into :) they are doing what they can with what they have...

    when I dipped my toes into the brawling arena it basically took 500 hours of gear/spec knowledge and compressed it onto a postage stamp and stuck it to my forehead....it was like a whole new thing for about 15 minutes......

    I'd love to carry on and articulate this idea...but its my fucking bedtime :(
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
  • 4

    posted a message on Discussion: Are the devs out of touch?
    Are the devs out of touch? as a whole? absolutely. I want to believe that, and I do believe it.

    They are out of touch with a certain crowd generally associated with Diablo 2 and its cousins and relatives..and in touch with a certain crowd generally associated with ...other games....not quite so tightly bound to the RPG genre purhaps.....all at the same time, generally.

    the more you dig and examine the aspects of diablo 3 and how these things are admired or crucified by players the more elegant differences you discover WITHIN those players. And that's why these discussions are just a continuous traveling freight train of ideas and debates. a freight train looping and swirling around the country-side forever. just like politics.

    you start with 2 groups of people and by the end everyone has branched off, advocating their customized template of beliefs in regards to what skill tree is best and what song is the worst.

    When you finally have 2 people who agree on everything, one of them holds a belief that makes them splinter away from the last guy and the process just repeats itself.

    that's why they have to do whats best for the quality of the game. not whats best for casuals or hardcore sociopaths, not whats best for simplicity or advanced complexity. not what looks the best or sounds the best...

    they have to adopt a philosophy of attractiveness, for lack of a better word. That's why I feel they are out of touch.

    if a class sucks make it attractive. make people want to use it.
    if an item sucks make it attractive. make people want to use it.
    if a skill sucks make it attractive. make people want to use it.
    same goes for builds,areas, etc....

    but they don't seem to place these things on a pedestal. and I feel that doing so would really drive the game's image upward.

    is having the 5 gems good enough? no. make new ones. this was old news many many years ago. and here we wait.
    is having dry under-powered legendary items good enough? no. make new ones. this was old news many many years ago. and here we wait.
    is having everyone use the same 5 or 10 legendary items good enough? no. make new ones. this was old news many many years ago. and here we wait.
    is rune XYZ being completely worthless shit for months good enough? no. make new ones. this was old news many many years ago. and here we wait.

    it just seems like a deafening roar how boring things are and how much everyone wants to explore something new like weapons or items or builds, and how long it takes this new stuff to come out and how underwhelming and recycled it happens to be.......

    they took lobbys out and hummed and hawed and wedged in clans and communities...

    they took PvP out and hummed and hawed and gave us a brawling arena

    they took charms and gems and jewels out and hummed and hawed and now are rolling out legendary gems.

    they took stat assignment out and hummed and hawed and now you assign stats with Paragon...

    they took wild cool legendarys out of the game and hummed and hawed and now are scrambling to give their legendaries fascinating powers...

    all the while the forum has been blowing up about those topics screaming for jay wilsons head on a stick asking what the fuck they were thinking???



    it just seems like a really sick sad merry-go-round overall.....even if they are on the brink of this big huge content patch....

    legendary gems and legendary potions is not rocket science....it should have been a no-brainer YEARS ago...and yet....here we wait...twiddling our thumbs...i'll be using that expression more often...

    and this decimates any notion that "the game is bought an paid for" or "these improvements are the icing on the cake.."

    people want improvements forcefully injected into the game. they CRAVE interesting assets becuase these assets are tragically absent. And these people craving this stuff are not industry professionals by any stretch. it does not make their opinion less valid.

    that craving for interesting assets is the very very beginning of any Role playing game ever created or you can fuck off and die. its that desire to graft a world that is interesting. and that when you the GM or game designer in Diablo 3's case gets to describe that world you so gleefully created to a person? CREATES A PERCEPTION OF THAT WORLD in their mind.

    so when the D3 team is describing their world of sanctuary by having players run to town to "insta-brim" its legendary items because they are boring useless pieces of shit. Or allowing their characters "bank accounts" to swell up into the fucking BILLIONS of gold...or allowing them to blend through 20 thousand dumb fuck monsters while watching "Big Bang Theory" on TV......it really does not say a whole lot about them being in touch with the player base.....that's my take on it personally...that a massive amount of the changes they are celebrating as upcoming features? Are child's play. They are ancient history and they were deleted into fucking oblivion with the most incredible abandon and incredible ignorance.

    my 18 year old brother doesnt concern himself with such nonsense. he just begs mom for her credit card and a lift to the fucking toy store to buy the ultimate evil edition version and play until level 25. this is actually happening. its real life shit.

    If that's their goal and thats their idea of a great game, a "hack and slash ARPG" that accomplishes that with beautiful graphics and "stat sticks" and thatthey owe the players nothing more; to me personally, that's out of touch.
    Posted in: Diablo III General Discussion
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