I see the logic in assuming Blizzard can not perfectly balance everything, so there will have to be superior builds. I can assure you though, they will make sure there are no builds that stand out too much. It's one of the main reasons D2was so broken, and it surely something they've had in mind to stop all along the dev process.
They've stated many, many times how each class has movement skills now. This is for the soul purpose to help balance classes. In D2 the Sorc has tele, so every other class was forced to use Enigma. In D3 each class has a movement skill, and each movement skill will have a cooldown.
Anyway, another topic they've spoke of many a times is how they are putting a lot of effort into making as many viable classes as possible, be it Normal mode, or Endgame levels. Surely there will be some classes which just by the essence of the skills and passives will be more effective at certain things, but I highly doubt there will be and Hammerdin situations.
Don't tell proletaria that though
agreed, my point in all this was my opinion was the WD would be better, not ALOT better, just a bit better then the rest at farming and i gave my reasons, i know if any build really stood out it would be nerf'd. but assuming they do at least a decent job of balancing before the release, there hypothetically won't ever be a need to nerf any skill just because its a bit better.
why would they lose any players if they didnt patch PVE? that makes absolutely no sense. just as many people will use the RMAH regardless of balancing in PVE, "he kills monsters slightly faster then me QQ" is not an incentive for blizzard to nerf a class or build or for someone to quit D3 unless their... 7 years old? lol. like i said, if it was SUPER OP then yes they most likely will and SHOULD patch it, but one class or build being a bit better then the rest isn't going to make them start nerfing skills like in wow. and i never said jay said it should be imbalanced, but a weird build could turn out to be the most OP in the game, and he's not going to take that away from someone, because someone else complained. and there will be ALOT less complaining because you can only play with 3 people, and your not sitting there paying attention to exactly how fast someone is killing things enough to go start spamming the forums to get it nerf'd, and if you saw that someone was really good, and you asked their build then you would use it also, not QQ. there pushing d3 to be super co op, and work together, not constantly bash on each other and get everyone nerfed till everyone hates the game haha. so again, no reason to patch anything. so doubtful there will be any nerfing, just patching extra content and quests. and very slight deviations to skills
They lost players because of imbalanced classes in WoW... so why wont they in Diablo? You just dismiss this with a "lol why would they"... what a solid argument. Your whole argumentation is based on assumptions that you take as "fakts", people will post their builds, if the build is imbalanced not all players will say "hell I'll use it too"... there will allways be players that start to complain because its imbalanced. And when you say that the weird build "is the most OP" then its clearly not "slightly" better (the word OP =/= slightly)... and if that happens they will nerf it, believe it or not. They will take away your super unique weirdo build. And you assume that playing with 3 people leads to "ALOT less" complaining why would that be? Do you belive people wont post their builds on forums? Or that other players wont come to create the same weird build? Thats just illusorily. And Diablo being a co-op game doesnt change shit, WoW is a MMO... you have to play with many players to achiev the best gear (4-24 other player...) and people still complain about other classes/speccs being imba. They maybe use the same build, but they will still complain because the game lacks diffrent viable builds.
Edit: And saying that people that complain (complain =/= "QQ") and ultimately draw the consequences are 7 years old (i.e. kids) shows that you are not capable of making solid arguments... thats just rude. Adding lol to that statement doesnt make it any better btw.
Edit2: And you should also assume that the other players are looking very close who kills things faster, people like to complain if the thing they play isnt the best thing (thats human nature for you).
Edit3: You should also note that calling people trolls because they dont agree with your point of view on the WD is not a nice way to argument with anyone. I dont know if my english is lacking and I dont understand your points but you always sound like you are latently calling people stupid because they dont agree with you...
they lost players because WoW is a game you NEED to balance, like i said a few posts ago, wow was ONLY patched for DPS and ranked PVP, which diablo has neither, thats my VERY solid argument for why they won't patch diablo. you have yet to make a dent in that. did they lose people in d2 because it was unbalanced? d2 was INSANELY broken and unbalanced and people accepted it. and playing with half as many people in a game compared to diablo 2 will OBVIOUSLY cut down on a lot of mainstream issues because it will be seen half as much. i call people trolls when there just saying "no it won't work" or "yes it will" without ANYTHING to back it up. thats trolling.
all in all, my one and only point to why they won't patch diablo skills (only very slightly, nothing extreme) , is no ranked pvp and no dps meter comparing. the whole reason behind wow patches. but we won't know till it comes out, feel free to message me and rub it in my face months after d3 comes out if theres a patch super nerfing skills and classes. but I'm 99.9% sure it will never happen.
My main is going to be the Witchdoctor, so good for me if he turns out to be easy. But I'm of the opinion that he's going to be very... squishy. Whatever prowess he has in the killing department is going to be paid for with his baby-soft skin.
maybe we could make the WD together :D. definitely going to be my main, might even get him to 60 before i even test another class haha. ya i agree thats why you'll definitely need a shield as the WD and use his summons as much as possible for protection
Inferno mode doesnt give you a reason to be more powerfull once you can beat it... If i can beat inferno easily, then why do i need better gear?? ..no point.
Thats why its not a end game ...you need something that you can always do better and makes it worth to keep farming for better and better items... PVP usually makes ppl feel like they realy need to become even more strong. Also ensless dungeons could make this happen, so in order to last longer on them you will have to find better gear...and well many things can came to your mind.
Inferno is a good place for end game farming...but not a end game itself.
I think the point of Inferno is to have some sort of prestige among players.
"How far are you in the game".
"I just beat Inferno act 3".
"Cool ^^".
The prestige lies in the fact that you don't level anymore, i.e. get stronger. Only the gear you wear will change.
Ya, but everyone (exept casual players mybe) will beat Inferno sooner or later.. end game is for those who keep playing a lot after the story is done, and those kind of players will beat inferno for sure. And after a few runs it probably wont be that hard, or mybe it will always stay the same hard...so, again, it wont make much sense to keep doing it once you know you can do it, unless its for somthing else...
i played d2 for years after beating the game over and over with every class. and if d2 had an 'inferno' mode it would of made me play even longer. so d3 has plenty of end-game content and there still adding more later, so no worries on that part.
I never talked about PvP did I? Lets assume in D3 every class is a PvE DamageDealer (what the game is about... should be a save assumption). In WoW the best PvE DD changed over time, during early BC Rogues were crap, during vanilla Rogues were one of the best DDs (expect really AoE heavy fights...). Yeah in WoW they changed many things because of PvP but that is because PvP was the biggest driving force in WoW (more than PvE... atleast in the long run).
But lets get away from the whole WoW thing, you assume they wont patch D3 because the didnt patch D2 but you forget one very important change between the two games... the RMAH. If Blizz leaves things imbalanced they lose players, and less players means less money for them through the RMAH. Through that they have a big incentive to patch things, and because they said that PvE > PvP in D3 you have a very high chance that they will balance classes/speccs that are imbalanced in PvE. And when Jay says they want "weird" or "strange" Builds to be viable he doesnt imply that they want them to be imbalanced. And balancing diffrent speccs in Diablo 3 shouldnt be harder than balancing WoW... WoW is also very complex and they achieve a somewhat balanced enviroment (you could argue that point but... lets not plz...).
Edit: And STOP the quoting... we dont need to know what somebody posted 5 posts ago
why would they lose any players if they didnt patch PVE? that makes absolutely no sense. just as many people will use the RMAH regardless of balancing in PVE, "he kills monsters slightly faster then me QQ" is not an incentive for blizzard to nerf a class or build or for someone to quit D3 unless their... 7 years old? lol. like i said, if it was SUPER OP then yes they most likely will and SHOULD patch it, but one class or build being a bit better then the rest isn't going to make them start nerfing skills like in wow. and i never said jay said it should be imbalanced, but a weird build could turn out to be the most OP in the game, and he's not going to take that away from someone, because someone else complained. and there will be ALOT less complaining because you can only play with 3 people, and your not sitting there paying attention to exactly how fast someone is killing things enough to go start spamming the forums to get it nerf'd, and if you saw that someone was really good, and you asked their build then you would use it also, not QQ. there pushing d3 to be super co op, and work together, not constantly bash on each other and get everyone nerfed till everyone hates the game haha. so again, no reason to patch anything. so doubtful there will be any nerfing, just patching extra content and quests. and very slight deviations to skills
Lol now I know your trolling. Trolls always mention grammar like it has some sort of baring on any subject unless were arguing about English lol. And no where Is there anything to assume passives make and break all builds whatsoever. Maybe a few. But not most, That again would defeat the entire new skill system. But you'll just argue something that doesn't make sense because your trollin. So I'll leave u with, your entire argument is against how the skill system is set up, therefor making it invalid.
Inferno mode doesnt give you a reason to be more powerfull once you can beat it... If i can beat inferno easily, then why do i need better gear?? ..no point.
Thats why its not a end game ...you need something that you can always do better and makes it worth to keep farming for better and better items... PVP usually makes ppl feel like they realy need to become even more strong. Also ensless dungeons could make this happen, so in order to last longer on them you will have to find better gear...and well many things can came to your mind.
Inferno is a good place for end game farming...but not a end game itself.
uhm... ? lol. dont troll on my posts please. the entire idea of inferno = super super difficult, so there will be no way you can beat it even remotely easily even WITH the powerful gear.
I don't think there will such a thing like "most powerful class" If we know Blizzard they will try to balance the game so each class has 50/50/50/50 power.
It's not about the class it's about the player behind him.
My thoughts too. And to the OP, we don't know much about Inferno yet so you wouldn't know if CC is vital. We can only speculate. But I'm sure you must specialize your character in some way to cope with higher difficulties, i.e. you can't both be elemental and summon based as a WD because your passives will have to support your active skills.
blizz has portrayed the whole point of the WD is to utilize BOTH the elements and the summons at the same time, saying that you can't be both in inferno defeats the whole purpose of the WD mechanics and how he was created, read the passives, they have some vital ones for summons, but the ones for his elemental or zombie dmg isn't such an insane boost that its a MUST need to be effective at all. and are you kidding about the CC? lol, the fact that you can fear them AND make them confused and attack each other will be INSANELY effective ESPECIALLY in inferno. . not trying to flame you but really think about how the WD is made and read the passives it'll help. i thought the same thing before i read the skills and watched all the gameplay videos of the WD
I've read all there is about the game and I've watched all videos. You talk of Inferno as if you've played it, but no one has yet so all we can do is speculate, yet you state things about Inferno. We will need to play the game to know what will actually work in the game.
Have a source for your claim about Blizzards portrayal of the WD?
lol, ive also watched all the videos of the gameplay and developers so its very easy to speculate when you have a lot of info. obviously things will be different when the game comes out, and then we will see who's right and wrong, the whole point of ANY of these threads on d3 is to speculate considering the beta isn't even out. haha.
and a source? how about ANY video of his gameplay + reading the lore + reading his skills. and not to mention the fact that his elemental skills work WITH his summons, not in part of. honestly go watch the commentary play through of the WD on youtube "diablo 3 witch doctor gameplay" click the first video. making him work one way or the other would be against the entire new system they've implemented in d3.
Couldn't understand what you meant here.
You can't base anything off of gameplay videos and reading the lore/skills. I never said his elemental skills wouldn't work with summons, but I thought so: Blizzard never 'portrayed' him like you claimed they did.
you can base ALOT off of gameplay and the skills haha WOW, what are you smoking? pass it here lol. and i never said you said they wouldn't work, you said they wouldn't be as powerful right? that he would need to be all focused on summons OR all focused on elemental for it to effective in inferno. and I'm saying thats completely false and against the entire new skill system, because you can have 6 fully powered skills + 3 passives. and i said the passives don't make and break the build. so you can use both just as effectively. and yes blizzard portrayed him as such. in fact blizzard portrays the entire skill system as most builds will be effective regardless, its all about how you want to play. no idea why your responses appear to be trolling and saying no, with nothing to back up your responses.
I don't think there will such a thing like "most powerful class" If we know Blizzard they will try to balance the game so each class has 50/50/50/50 power.
It's not about the class it's about the player behind him.
My thoughts too. And to the OP, we don't know much about Inferno yet so you wouldn't know if CC is vital. We can only speculate. But I'm sure you must specialize your character in some way to cope with higher difficulties, i.e. you can't both be elemental and summon based as a WD because your passives will have to support your active skills.
blizz has portrayed the whole point of the WD is to utilize BOTH the elements and the summons at the same time, saying that you can't be both in inferno defeats the whole purpose of the WD mechanics and how he was created, read the passives, they have some vital ones for summons, but the ones for his elemental or zombie dmg isn't such an insane boost that its a MUST need to be effective at all. and are you kidding about the CC? lol, the fact that you can fear them AND make them confused and attack each other will be INSANELY effective ESPECIALLY in inferno. . not trying to flame you but really think about how the WD is made and read the passives it'll help. i thought the same thing before i read the skills and watched all the gameplay videos of the WD
I've read all there is about the game and I've watched all videos. You talk of Inferno as if you've played it, but no one has yet so all we can do is speculate, yet you state things about Inferno. We will need to play the game to know what will actually work in the game.
Have a source for your claim about Blizzards portrayal of the WD?
lol, ive also watched all the videos of the gameplay and developers so its very easy to speculate when you have a lot of info. obviously things will be different when the game comes out, and then we will see who's right and wrong, the whole point of ANY of these threads on d3 is to speculate considering the beta isn't even out. haha.
and a source? how about ANY video of his gameplay + reading the lore + reading his skills. and not to mention the fact that his elemental skills work WITH his summons, not in part of. honestly go watch the commentary play through of the WD on youtube "diablo 3 witch doctor gameplay" click the first video. making him work one way or the other would be against the entire new system they've implemented in d3.
... and to say something productive, my guess would be that the classes are almost equal. If that is not the case Blizzard will patch it. I know there is always a best skill combination/class but it will be patched, if you played WoW you know that the best pve class allways changed
not to be rude but comparing the patching to wow is completely illogical. because in diablo 2 the best classes were never patched, ever. yes i know this is a new game and everything, but the ONLY reason they patch wow is because people QQ about DPS and about PVP, thats it. there is no "dps" in diablo and there is no ranked pvp, and they've said many times they will NOT balance it for pvp, so its going to be flawed, guaranteed. too many millions of variables to make it equal.
Wasn't the hammerdin patched? Although I remember reading that the patch didn't make too much of a difference. I don't think it's illogical to compare patching in WOW to diablo since both games are made by the same company. I too believe that if a certain class and skill combination proves to be above and beyond others that Blizzard will take care of it. I don't think they will patch classes for pvp because they said they don't care about that as much as pve for diablo.
ya it didn't really change anything, and same company doesn't mean anything because they make MANY different types of games, and wow and diablo are completely different. and they said they wouldn't patch for pvp for its effect on PVE. and with the millions of builds you can make between all 5 characters, someone will discover a few super uber builds and just because someone figured it out doesn't mean blizzard will be like "oh crap you figured out something awesome, let me remove that". not going to happen, i believe they will SLIGHTLY patch things, but they won't "nerf" any classes ever. unless say one skill on one of the classes is way ungodly powerful compared to the rest. if you watch the interview with jay wilson he WANTS people to come up with crazy builds that will be super uber, so i sincerely doubt they will ever nerf anything
For Blizzard to say Inferno is "end-game" does sorta seem like a cheap cop-out. There are literally tons of end-game ideas out there yet they implemented none of them and instead are just adjusting monsters to lvl 61... seems sort of lazy to me.
To me end-game content should be a sort of fun or challenging competitive Test! You shouldn't be still building your character in an end-game, you should be putting your character and skills to the Ultimate Test - Whether it be against other players, a never-ending horde, or an uber boss- it should still push your character to the limit and hopefully, over the limit.
using wow as a comparison because everyone (but mostly about sixen) considers it end game. and in wow "end game" you are still building your character, honing your skills and getting the best gear exactly how inferno is. so i don't see how that point makes inferno not end game when its comparable to heroics and raids like I've pointed out.
Um I didn't say anything about WoW. In fact, I am pretty sure Diablo is Not WoW. I simply defined what an end-game is and said adding a 4th difficulty does not constitute as an end-game. I mean heck! how can Inferno BE the end-game when you have to beat the game all over again. Its like saying the final level in pacman is actually the end-game.
end-game = content after game has ended. Inferno is still the same game.
i didn't say you did mention wow. i was using that as an example for my argument. everyone just thinks about the fact that its another play through it removes any notion that its end game. but thats completely false. but the fact that you have to be MAX level and fairly skilled / geared to get through it, makes it so it IS an end game, if you were still leveling up in inferno, then of course it wouldn't be. but your not, the game is over after your 60 and kill whoever the end boss is in hell, then INFERNO is added as end game for an extra challenge and extra super gear. so in the end, its end-game material. maybe its not the BEST choice but it still is end-game regardless
his elemental and zombie damage will rival the power for the wizards damage. so that with summons should be able to move through the game just as quickly as any other class, if not faster because your not worrying about getting hurt as much because you have meat shields.
I don't think there will such a thing like "most powerful class" If we know Blizzard they will try to balance the game so each class has 50/50/50/50 power.
It's not about the class it's about the player behind him.
My thoughts too. And to the OP, we don't know much about Inferno yet so you wouldn't know if CC is vital. We can only speculate. But I'm sure you must specialize your character in some way to cope with higher difficulties, i.e. you can't both be elemental and summon based as a WD because your passives will have to support your active skills.
blizz has portrayed the whole point of the WD is to utilize BOTH the elements and the summons at the same time, saying that you can't be both in inferno defeats the whole purpose of the WD mechanics and how he was created, read the passives, they have some vital ones for summons, but the ones for his elemental or zombie dmg isn't such an insane boost that its a MUST need to be effective at all. and are you kidding about the CC? lol, the fact that you can fear them AND make them confused and attack each other will be INSANELY effective ESPECIALLY in inferno. . not trying to flame you but really think about how the WD is made and read the passives it'll help. i thought the same thing before i read the skills and watched all the gameplay videos of the WD
... and to say something productive, my guess would be that the classes are almost equal. If that is not the case Blizzard will patch it. I know there is always a best skill combination/class but it will be patched, if you played WoW you know that the best pve class allways changed
not to be rude but comparing the patching to wow is completely illogical. because in diablo 2 the best classes were never patched, ever. yes i know this is a new game and everything, but the ONLY reason they patch wow is because people QQ about DPS and about PVP, thats it. there is no "dps" in diablo and there is no ranked pvp, and they've said many times they will NOT balance it for pvp, so its going to be flawed, guaranteed. too many millions of variables to make it equal.
So I was bored and decided I would like to hear what everyone on Diablo Fans is annoyed by the most.
Here, I'll go first. I absolutely hate it when I fix a computer for my friends, for free, and suddenly they come across a problem in the near future and automatically, it's somehow my fault.
anyone who has ever said "there's nothing funny about ... blank" theres something funny about EVERYTHING. period. people without a sense of humor about everything should be raped for the extra irony effect
i think they should give the witch doctor a very bright yellow "mojo". yes its close on the spectrum but very far apart from red if you look at them. so i think that should solve everything.
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agreed, my point in all this was my opinion was the WD would be better, not ALOT better, just a bit better then the rest at farming and i gave my reasons, i know if any build really stood out it would be nerf'd. but assuming they do at least a decent job of balancing before the release, there hypothetically won't ever be a need to nerf any skill just because its a bit better.
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they lost players because WoW is a game you NEED to balance, like i said a few posts ago, wow was ONLY patched for DPS and ranked PVP, which diablo has neither, thats my VERY solid argument for why they won't patch diablo. you have yet to make a dent in that. did they lose people in d2 because it was unbalanced? d2 was INSANELY broken and unbalanced and people accepted it. and playing with half as many people in a game compared to diablo 2 will OBVIOUSLY cut down on a lot of mainstream issues because it will be seen half as much. i call people trolls when there just saying "no it won't work" or "yes it will" without ANYTHING to back it up. thats trolling.
all in all, my one and only point to why they won't patch diablo skills (only very slightly, nothing extreme) , is no ranked pvp and no dps meter comparing. the whole reason behind wow patches. but we won't know till it comes out, feel free to message me and rub it in my face months after d3 comes out if theres a patch super nerfing skills and classes. but I'm 99.9% sure it will never happen.
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maybe we could make the WD together :D. definitely going to be my main, might even get him to 60 before i even test another class haha. ya i agree thats why you'll definitely need a shield as the WD and use his summons as much as possible for protection
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i played d2 for years after beating the game over and over with every class. and if d2 had an 'inferno' mode it would of made me play even longer. so d3 has plenty of end-game content and there still adding more later, so no worries on that part.
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why would they lose any players if they didnt patch PVE? that makes absolutely no sense. just as many people will use the RMAH regardless of balancing in PVE, "he kills monsters slightly faster then me QQ" is not an incentive for blizzard to nerf a class or build or for someone to quit D3 unless their... 7 years old? lol. like i said, if it was SUPER OP then yes they most likely will and SHOULD patch it, but one class or build being a bit better then the rest isn't going to make them start nerfing skills like in wow. and i never said jay said it should be imbalanced, but a weird build could turn out to be the most OP in the game, and he's not going to take that away from someone, because someone else complained. and there will be ALOT less complaining because you can only play with 3 people, and your not sitting there paying attention to exactly how fast someone is killing things enough to go start spamming the forums to get it nerf'd, and if you saw that someone was really good, and you asked their build then you would use it also, not QQ. there pushing d3 to be super co op, and work together, not constantly bash on each other and get everyone nerfed till everyone hates the game haha. so again, no reason to patch anything. so doubtful there will be any nerfing, just patching extra content and quests. and very slight deviations to skills
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uhm... ? lol. dont troll on my posts please. the entire idea of inferno = super super difficult, so there will be no way you can beat it even remotely easily even WITH the powerful gear.
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you can base ALOT off of gameplay and the skills haha WOW, what are you smoking? pass it here
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lol, ive also watched all the videos of the gameplay and developers so its very easy to speculate when you have a lot of info. obviously things will be different when the game comes out, and then we will see who's right and wrong, the whole point of ANY of these threads on d3 is to speculate considering the beta isn't even out. haha.
and a source? how about ANY video of his gameplay + reading the lore + reading his skills. and not to mention the fact that his elemental skills work WITH his summons, not in part of. honestly go watch the commentary play through of the WD on youtube "diablo 3 witch doctor gameplay" click the first video. making him work one way or the other would be against the entire new system they've implemented in d3.
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ya it didn't really change anything, and same company doesn't mean anything because they make MANY different types of games, and wow and diablo are completely different. and they said they wouldn't patch for pvp for its effect on PVE. and with the millions of builds you can make between all 5 characters, someone will discover a few super uber builds and just because someone figured it out doesn't mean blizzard will be like "oh crap you figured out something awesome, let me remove that". not going to happen, i believe they will SLIGHTLY patch things, but they won't "nerf" any classes ever. unless say one skill on one of the classes is way ungodly powerful compared to the rest. if you watch the interview with jay wilson he WANTS people to come up with crazy builds that will be super uber, so i sincerely doubt they will ever nerf anything
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i didn't say you did mention wow. i was using that as an example for my argument. everyone just thinks about the fact that its another play through it removes any notion that its end game. but thats completely false. but the fact that you have to be MAX level and fairly skilled / geared to get through it, makes it so it IS an end game, if you were still leveling up in inferno, then of course it wouldn't be. but your not, the game is over after your 60 and kill whoever the end boss is in hell, then INFERNO is added as end game for an extra challenge and extra super gear. so in the end, its end-game material. maybe its not the BEST choice but it still is end-game regardless
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his elemental and zombie damage will rival the power for the wizards damage. so that with summons should be able to move through the game just as quickly as any other class, if not faster because your not worrying about getting hurt as much because you have meat shields.
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blizz has portrayed the whole point of the WD is to utilize BOTH the elements and the summons at the same time, saying that you can't be both in inferno defeats the whole purpose of the WD mechanics and how he was created, read the passives, they have some vital ones for summons, but the ones for his elemental or zombie dmg isn't such an insane boost that its a MUST need to be effective at all. and are you kidding about the CC? lol, the fact that you can fear them AND make them confused and attack each other will be INSANELY effective ESPECIALLY in inferno.
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not to be rude but comparing the patching to wow is completely illogical. because in diablo 2 the best classes were never patched, ever. yes i know this is a new game and everything, but the ONLY reason they patch wow is because people QQ about DPS and about PVP, thats it. there is no "dps" in diablo and there is no ranked pvp, and they've said many times they will NOT balance it for pvp, so its going to be flawed, guaranteed. too many millions of variables to make it equal.
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anyone who has ever said "there's nothing funny about ... blank" theres something funny about EVERYTHING. period. people without a sense of humor about everything should be raped for the extra irony effect