DiabloFans

I'm quite indifferent about guns, they might put an unfair or meaningless addition into the game, or they'll be just right but not quite what we'd expect.

Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »

It is something that should be discussed, however, the thread creator should be aware who uses this site, I tried to argue against guns, with coherency and logic. However I am the minority here. Expect a lot of name calling and "oh go play HG: L and/or WOW." And points that make no sense, or add no value to the disscussion. Such is the nature of a forum.

You're right. I just felt like saying it once regardless.

Quote from "Amonteloulou" »

If you want gun, play hellgate.

God would you all shut up about this, Hellgate crap, I bring it up and you all assume i'm in favor of them? No, i'm not, I just thought it ought to be discussed because I want to know what others think, but also discuss possabilities, not create a little fanboy circle.

Do you guys remember guns in Dungeon Siege? Grenade Launchers, Gatling Guns, Lightning guns?

Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »

Highly likely, and in all probablibity, would happen.

But I still fail to see how that would make a gun.

fuse lights a charge, which causes an explosion (and with primative guns, lots and lots of smoke), the explosion forces a projectile out a long steel tube.

Guns don't appear in medieval times, or at least if they do, it's right at the end, right before the Reneissance kicks in with people going nutzo to create weirdo and fantasical stuff, Leonardo's flying machine and submarine, etc.

Diablo is right in the heart of what would be considered Medieval, or Middle Age. being that it is set in the equivlent of the 13th century Europe, there is still at least another 300 years before the arrival of anything resembling the gun as a weapon of war.

I don't see why you're trying to associate every event from the real time with the unreal, the relationship between the two is the general theme, not little things like the creation of guns and steel that effected the future in big ways. Though steel does exist in the diablo world...

Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »

I did think about.

The ability to cast magic, and the ability to make guns are two completely different things.

Guns evolved from rockets, which evolved from fire works.

I didn't see much fire works in Diablo.

The way they are presenting the evolution to firearms is different from that though, it's a direct brainstorm, not a phase.

Quote from name="Elfen Lied" »

Diablo is set in 1265, 20 years later is 1285. That's still the 13th century, guns weren't mainstream till about the 17th century. The were in China in the 10th Century, but that China.

Diablo seems to mirror our world timeline wise, what is our 13th century (Europe) seem to be what Sanctuary's 13th century is.

It one of the few mirroring of our world the Diablo series actually does. Sure other medieval fantasy games mirror our world, but so few mirror the dates. Their year 1265 is our year 1265 (AD).


Larzuk also describes a Hot Air Balloon, made of sheep skin, while airships are no stranger in Medieval fantasy games (see Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale), I doubt we will see that either.

I agree with you on that entirely except one thing, while it mirrors it stylishly, I can't deny that it is following it's own set of exceptions that bring into the question of the starting point and that point on, how things progress, such as a world power of demons rampaging around the world, destroying a holy relic and the prophecy of an uncertain future.

Can guns come into the game and add a new element while remaining balanced? Maybe.

Quote from "Daemaro" »

Guns are stupid in these types of games, I don't even think they should be in WoW...

Theres no way a leather armor is going to protect you from a shotgun.

I agree with you, why can I shoot poison out of my shotgun and why do I only put blasting caps in it.

Quote from "Assign" »

Guns aren't made yet?

They havent said they arent in the game, you can't rule out the possability.

Quote from "Espionage" »

dude seriously get out and play Hellgate london jesus

Why are you attacking me, I just thought it was something worth noting.

So I remembered a long time ago one of the gossip dialogues that Qual Khek dishes out.

"Larzuk is a talented blacksmith, but his head is full of some strange ideas. Just the other day he came to me with a plan to break the siege. He wanted to fill large pipes with exploding powders and steel balls, and then, well, *chuckles* well, like I said. Strange."

They might write this out as nothing and it might even be nothing but it got me thinking... they mention that it's been 20 years, story wise, perhaps guns will make an entrance but be endgame. I don't quite see how it would fit into a ranged archetypes skill buffer though... Also when I say Gun, I am NOT refering to assault rifles or any 19th, 20th, or 21st century weaponry. I am refering to weapons such a muskets, matchlocks, and hand cannons (ball projectiles, not BULLETS) the basic of basic firearms.

The notion of guns is entirely plausable. and I have proof of this possible inspiration.

Know one thing however, I doubt highly that firearms will make an entrance, I think it would be anoying to have guns as a useable item. I am just entertaining the thought, as thinking from a singular opinionated moot goes nowhere.

The following is suggesting that Larzuk got his inspiration from travelers or that the idea was lingering in the world or from a lost asian culture in sanctuary, not mentioned ever in lore and that the mixture of cultures through time is so large that anything is possible.

First off you have to take into account that Harrogath and the outlaying area was completely devestated. It is safe now and people have begun to return to the area. Even though 20 years later it would seem that the ecosystem has been completely devestated to the point that large sums of land have sunken beneath the sea. This could suggest even moreso that he and the inhabitants have evacuated the area and headed south, away from the dreadlands.

One other thing that comes as odd is the presence of weaponized potions such as the Explosive Potion and Poison Gas Potions. How is it that this kind of tech becomes available in the tristram area, suddenly after Diablo 1, since the first two games were one right after the other, not 20 years later like Diablo 3. This could suggest that people are experimenting with explosives as well as alchemic reactions and different ways the impliment them on such a mass scale. It's entirely possible that this was neglected because Tristram is a very remote village, or maybe it was technical limitation, but non the less...

Here are Examples of throwing potions from Diablo 2



If you play Diabo 1 you may notice that Katanas are present. This is an asian weapon design. There are many other items that are clearly asian aswell in Diablo 1 and some that are not so clear, since the difference is slightly blurred as Europe begins trading with the East more and more.

The Diablo 2 items are harder to identify but I believe that I have found a few, I may be wrong on a few of them, but I am sure that the Diablo 2 Splint armor is an eastern armor style. I grabbed what I thought was Asian, Including Indian as they are on the fringe of being what we know to be asian. I can't stress this though, these are just examples, I'm not trying to be exact, I am only trying to make a point.

There is a question that I cannot answer, and that is: Why would a remote town like Tristram have such items and even more so, why does the rest of the world seem to not?

Here are examples of asian themed weaponry and armor in D1 and Far-Eastern themed weaponry in Diablo 2

Diablo 1



Diablo 2



The asian designs were not just limited to Items, there was an entire class with Asian and Far Eastern elements all throughout it.

The Assassin!


The assassin was quite possibly the most direct emphasis on the Far-Eastern element, everything about her except her appearance was relateable to asian styles, her armor style, her weapon of choice, and even her skill tree.

She had 3 distinct trees full of asian elements, The entire Martial Arts tree was chalked full of Chinese hand to hand combat moves such as the Tiger Strike, Dragon Talon, Cobra Strike, and Phoenix Strike. Her Shadow Diciplines were clearly inspired by Japanese Shinobi myths, such as the Shadow Warrior and Master (Shadow Clones), the Cloak of Shadows (Invisablity), Mind Blast (Psychic), and Claw Mastery. The assassins Trap tree seemed to be a generally asian themed tree.

The assassins Trap tree is probably the most important one to note, as it relates quite a lot to the production of firearms, first of all the Fire Blast isn't just a cup full of gas it's a chemical reaction, this leads me to suspect (If this class is indeed an Far-Eastern themed class) that this means that what ever this unknown element in the world is, it's fully aware of the mechanics of explosives and engineering.
The rest of the tree is the most important, if you look at the traps closely you see a turret with 4 legs laying flat on the ground, this may be just a simple magic item but I do not believe this is true. It has been said that these assassins are afraid of magic, as they believe outer unfluences corrupt, I think this is something mechanical in nature.

Many of the skills, albeit clearly magical in origin or not, uses Mana as a medium to make the game move on, many people say that because the traps require mana, they must be magical in some way. I believe that this theory is incorrect because as you look at it, and as it breaks up it's clearly not a simple element like lightning or fire, it has a solid mass, magic cannot create something solid like metal or wood, save for ice.
I believe that in cases such as the Barbarian and the Assassin, that mana was simply a medium, not a cause.

Then you have Xiansai...

Everything was clouded up until this point.

This first photo is the Diablo 2 world map and the third is the Diablo 3 map, seen on the website.



If you notice, the East is cut out on the Diablo 2 map but the Diablo 3 map isn't like this, also, that northern island is given a name: Xiansai.

Going back to the items and asian element, the Diablo 3 team decided to identify the eastern end of Sanctuary as coast, cutting off that potential expansion, it is possible that the original team wanted to explore more this direction and as a compromise the third games team decided to name that northern island Xiansai, to replace a potentially entirely new portion of the continent of Sanctuary.

It always struck me as odd, why the stories of the Sin Wars say that the world of Sanctuary was created by Demons and Angels, and yet throughout sanctuary you see no Demon elements, no signs of the demons beyond the wild creatures. It could have been that when the Angels and Demons migrated to Sanctuary that they divided themselves into two different areas because I highly doubt that angels and demons would have continued to live on after the demons tried to raise an army of Nephalem.
I personally think that the original team that created Diablo 1 intended to explore that unexplored eastern side of sanctuary but never got around to it, however I have no evidence to back this theory up.

Quote from "applesoffury" »

it does sound asian...for what i can see it can translate kinda into...sai is a weapon, xian has alot of meanings, from salty to string to an immortal...or meaning fairy, sage or wizard. or one seeking the elixir of life...interesting...

Evidence that futher suggests that firearms are plausable, there is an added asian element into the game that is not discussed, Asia had flame throwers and gun powder, as well as missiles as well as pass producting capabilities for a thousand years before the time that Sanctuary is set in.

If Larzuk is suggesting such a weapons he must have gotten the idea from somewhere.

And again...

Quote from "applesoffury" »

if it is in any form of chinese its gonna be based on the character. but it prolly wont be string or salty.:D

sai is also an Egyptian deity upon further research, God of Fate - determines how long someone will live and weighing of the soul

your idea of resurrection is sounding rather impressive...elixir of life + god of fate + immortal...

This is all taken out of context, we were speculating what Xiansai stood for and I brought up Diablo and his rebirth. It's somewhat relevant, I am suggesting that an asian element has existed since before there was information on them.

People have said that magic could influence the way technology developes. I doubt this to be honest. Inarius, the man who created the Worldstone, pleaced a curse on the first generation of humans that would diminish their power over several generations. A smithy isn't going to be a magician. Those kinds of people are contained into Cults, Orders, and groups as such. They are a minority. The way that people develope technology is based on their survival and human curiosity. It is my view that it would not hinder the developement of Firearms for the regular person, and if anything the groups layed all throughout the world would try to find ways of augmenting it to work hand in hand with magic to somehow concentrate magic into a projectile.

The armor and weapons, as well as the weaponized potions supports the potential of firearms and artillery existing in the game.

It is in my opinion that the entrance of primative cannons and hand cannons is plausable. But as to if it would fit, I don't know. That is up to Blizzard to articulate if they choose to.

The following are the weapons that I am suggesting are possible, pictures are taken from LinkX's post on page 20, as well as examples found on the internet.


<---- Hand Culverin, mid 1300's, found in Majorca (Armeria Real, Madrid)

Additionally, we must think of how the Crossbow functioned, it had a 2 second attack speed and yet the weapon in reality takes at least 25 seconds to reload a crossbow, additionally it requires a lot of strength so crossbowmen tended to reload even slower than that in the midst of a battlefield. A gun could take 3.5 or more seconds to reload by default and still fit the game, no matter how long it takes to truely reload. We all think that we're just going to stand still and attack with a ranged weapon but what about hit and run tactics? Does this not help give the gun a place since all us ranged folks did that anyway in Diablo 2?

There is also a historical element that is being overlooked, and it takes its personification in one class, the Amazon. The amazon is a greek mythological tribe of women who cut one breast off to fire bows and arrows, this preceeds the time in which Sanctuary by at least 1500 years. And yet this ancient myth is mixed into the world.

This is a clear mixture of styles. We all say that Diablo has its roots in Medieval europe (Around the 1300's to be exact), well I do not believe that this is true, I think that each culture is stylized to an ideally focal point. Though each culture has been somewhat related but very different, they all appear to come from many different time periods.

I'll give you 2 more examples of ancient themes taking place in the world of Sanctuary.

The Necromancer and the Druid. These two classes are just as old as the Amazon. The Druid is Celtic, ideally stylized about 1000 years before the time of Sanctuary.

The Necromancer is the one character that is stylized ahead of the supposed time of sanctuary. The necromancer that we know is from the Rennaissance era, Necromancers were seen broadly as Dark Magic using Demon summoners. Though it it should be said that the Summoning tree has its roots in the same time period as Druid's as these two classes are very much related since they are the perspective light and dark (Life - Druid / Death - Necromancer)

This is Blizzards game, they can say what ever they want about this, they've already said it about world mechanics which I will quote below from his critique of the photoshopped photos.

My favorite [criticism] is the one that analyzed the light refraction angle, and told us why from that angle seeing a rainbow would actually be impossible. Oh yeah, and it was upside down because the colors were reversed. And we’re like, “This is a whole different world than ours! Who’s to say that light refracts the same in the Diablo world?”

That quote makes me think that they'll put what ever they want into the game, regardless of era, only if it fits and guess what firearms fit and I think that they will make an appearance, albeit in or out of the characters hands.

Though I do not support idea of Firearms in Diablo 3, I do see the possability, but it would have to be well thought and executed and I do not believe that the diablo 3 team is capable of that.

From that. I ask you to draw up your own logical conclusions. The prospect of guns threatens many fanboys of the Diablo Universe, they have said that it will turn Diablo 3 into Hellgate:London or even Pirates of the Caribbean, why would they choose such a theme anyway, maybe that was on the minds of the few people from Blizzard Norths Diablo 2 team that migrated to Flagship. Maybe and maybe not.

But remember people, the world of sanctuary's style was based off of medieval europe, Ottoman Turks and supposed South American/Central American culture and the savage tribes of the eastern european barbarians (now russians) stretching over thousands of years. There is no telling how these cultures intermix through trade and relationship. 20 years is a long time, things can change quite fast, and also remember that we only saw a small portion of the world, the weapons could have been present in a few city ports (as the sea is the most logical way of spreading technology from far away in a pre industrial era.

This mixing of cultures and time periods makes me wonder if the way that technology changes over those 20 years, are guns out of the question?

Discuss.

Quote from "Daemaro" »

And you know why? Cause it's been discussed to hell and back. No one cares to discuss it anymore, you either like it, you don't, or you don't care either way.

Nothing we say anymore is going to sway Blizzard they know people aren't happy and they're aware of the petition. So keep it all in one thread.

That's stupid, that defeats the purpose of threads, people should be talking about things in excess, why centralize it, it's a waste of effort.

Quote from "Daemaro" »

Okay. In that case there are a ZILLION other threads in which people state they don't like the art work.

http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10294

Try that one.

I tried that. focusing the threads just causes replys to go undiscussed.