You have to understand one thing. If they make an official PvP Rank they are basically making PvP matter. When PvP matters they have to balance it and polish it at release. And there are huge differences between PvE and PvP balance it's not just "change spell dmg/stun times/slow times for PvP".
They have to take all character team combinations and all character builds (skills + gear + enchantments + gemstones + runes) in consideration. Thats huge amount of work and would require a really intense internal test season. Right now they didn't even finished the rune systen and surely don't have enough data and feedback to make any kind of balance.
They don't want people frustrated in official ranks of an unpolished and unbalanced game modality. Look, if they put a rank and w/l rates in b.net, people will bitch about pvp balance all the time, while they simply have to overlook PvP for a while in order to polish other aspects of the game.
If you're a die hard PvP fun, i'm sure people all over the internet will creat unnofficial PvP leagues. Join one and play tournaments there. When D3 team is ready too make a good PvP enviorment, they will implement the right support to it.
You don't need to make a game cater to E-Sports to make it competitive. As for making the Arena more competitive, it doesn't "Split" the community, because people are going to still be Magic finding and trying the other endgame options that they have to offer. As long as they aren't making something along the lines of PvP gear, they aren't catering to being an E-Sport or splitting the community. All anyone is asking for is some sort of visible ranking system so people have something to strive for in the arena. The balance used to balance the progression in actual game should be enough along with the tuning of stuns and CC's in the arena. It shouldn't be ridiculously out of wack since there's no skill points and no synergies.
You don't need to make a game cater to E-Sports to make it competitive. As for making the Arena more competitive, it doesn't "Split" the community, because people are going to still be Magic finding and trying the other endgame options that they have to offer. As long as they aren't making something along the lines of PvP gear, they aren't catering to being an E-Sport or splitting the community. All anyone is asking for is some sort of visible ranking system so people have something to strive for in the arena. The balance used to balance the progression in actual game should be enough along with the tuning of stuns and CC's in the arena. It shouldn't be ridiculously out of wack since there's no skill points and no synergies.
It's the third time i tell you the reason why they are not making an official visible rank. PvP will be a unpolished modility inside D3. They can't make a rank and say "Cherubdown's team is the #1" if the whole competition systen is broken.
Ranks only works for fair activities. PvP in D3 will not be fair at release. Ranks and victories would problably only means lucky in a paper, stone and scisor game. They don't want people focusing their attention in unpolished parts of the game, like PvP.
You don't need to make a game cater to E-Sports to make it competitive. As for making the Arena more competitive, it doesn't "Split" the community, because people are going to still be Magic finding and trying the other endgame options that they have to offer. As long as they aren't making something along the lines of PvP gear, they aren't catering to being an E-Sport or splitting the community. All anyone is asking for is some sort of visible ranking system so people have something to strive for in the arena. The balance used to balance the progression in actual game should be enough along with the tuning of stuns and CC's in the arena. It shouldn't be ridiculously out of wack since there's no skill points and no synergies.
It's the third time i tell you the reason why they are not making an official visible rank. PvP will be a unpolished modility inside D3. They can't make a rank and say "Cherubdown's team is the #1" if the whole competition systen is broken.
Ranks only works for fair activities. PvP in D3 will not be fair at release. Ranks and victories would problably only means lucky in a paper, stone and scisor game. They don't want people focusing their attention in unpolished parts of the game, like PvP.
I'd love all these "features" and I don't really think people would bitch about it, because everybody would know beforehand "the design philosophy".
I don't think they should just stay 100% away from it, specially if they know we'll turn it into a major deal. Just make sure it's fully featured and let people know that balance won't be a "top priority" and we'll never have "PvP specific items" - that would be good enough.
Although anything like a "wager" system would be decent enough for me, just to have fun with my friends. And maybe just a "symbolic reward" - like being able to sell "ears" for gold =P
I'd love all these "features" and I don't really think people would bitch about it, because everybody would know beforehand "the design philosophy".
I don't think they should just stay 100% away from it, specially if they know we'll turn it into a major deal. Just make sure it's fully featured and let people know that balance won't be a "top priority" and we'll never have "PvP specific items" - that would be good enough.
Although anything like a "wager" system would be decent enough for me, just to have fun with my friends. And maybe just a "symbolic reward" - like being able to sell "ears" for gold =P
Wait... you're assuming that even anywhere CLOSE to a majority of gamers read up enough to know that it wouldn't be a priority. I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. Most of the people who would use a pvp system wouldn't read enough to nkow that, they would use it and be STRONGLY angered and disappointed that it wasn't balanced. Why? Because it was in the game, and it damnwell should be balanced if it's there and ranked!
Most of the people ON THIS FORUM would read enough to know that, but I guarantee you this forum represents the BAREST minority of people interested in d3.
Wait... you're assuming that even anywhere CLOSE to a majority of gamers read up enough to know that it wouldn't be a priority. I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. Most of the people who would use a pvp system wouldn't read enough to nkow that, they would use it and be STRONGLY angered and disappointed that it wasn't balanced. Why? Because it was in the game, and it damnwell should be balanced if it's there and ranked!
Most of the people ON THIS FORUM would read enough to know that, but I guarantee you this forum represents the BAREST minority of people interested in d3.
The PvP community isn't SMALL AT ALL, and we would make best use of what we get. All we want is the foundations leave the rest to the PvP community to sort out brah.
There's a pretty simple reason not to make pvp majorly competetive.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
not necessarily
but STILL I don't see the problem with balancing a bit
if they notice a build raping too hard in PvP all they have to do is lower their dmg a bit but it's not necesarilly needed
Because Diablo is, was, and always will be primarily a pve game. If you tweak damage down for an ability and break a viable pve build, you're hurting the game.
Also, remember, the fun of Diablo pvp is trying to find those overpowered combos and then seeing what others come up with to counter them. Balancing it is counter to a large core of the fun of diablo pvp.
Did you even bother reading the OP? PvP can be developed COMPLETELY separate from PvE. The system is already implemented to achieve this, according to the lead developer of the D 3. The "PvP has to suck because otherwise PvE will suffer argument is dead. There is no point in rehashing it over and over in every single thread where PvP is mentioned.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Wait... you're assuming that even anywhere CLOSE to a majority of gamers read up enough to know that it wouldn't be a priority. I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong. Most of the people who would use a pvp system wouldn't read enough to nkow that, they would use it and be STRONGLY angered and disappointed that it wasn't balanced. Why? Because it was in the game, and it damnwell should be balanced if it's there and ranked!
Most of the people ON THIS FORUM would read enough to know that, but I guarantee you this forum represents the BAREST minority of people interested in d3.
The PvP community isn't SMALL AT ALL, and we would make best use of what we get. All we want is the foundations leave the rest to the PvP community to sort out brah.
Where did I say it was small? I'm saying the the people on this forum are a minority, not the people interested in pvp are a minority. Reading comprehension classes may be a good idea for your future.
What I am saying is that the MAJORITY of people who are INTERESTED IN DIABLO 3 PVP wouldn't have ANY IDEA that it was not a priority to have it balanced. Is that clear enough?
It doesn't matter where they post it, they could have it PLASTERED on the opening screen, the login screen, the loading screen for the arena, and even the queuing screen for the arena. People would still have NO CLUE at all that it wasn't intended to be a priority.
It's the third time i tell you the reason why they are not making an official visible rank. PvP will be a unpolished modility inside D3. They can't make a rank and say "Cherubdown's team is the #1" if the whole competition systen is broken.
Ranks only works for fair activities. PvP in D3 will not be fair at release. Ranks and victories would problably only means lucky in a paper, stone and scisor game. They don't want people focusing their attention in unpolished parts of the game, like PvP.
Your argument is fallacious. No game has ever been or will be completely "fair." There's always balance issues, exploits, bugs, etc etc. Hell, look at WoW in it's current state. There's still overpowered classes and they can't get it right after 7 years. LOOK AT STARTCRAFT, heralded as one of the most competitive e-sport games worldwide. People are constantly complaining about balance issues there. They can't get it perfect and that's all the game is geared toward. THAT'S FINE. Most of us are not expecting a damn E-Sport. What we are expecting is a dedicated team to cater to our version of fun in Diablo 3. I.e. attempting to balance through the evolution of the game and maintaining a respectable, competitive PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE.
Is that really too much to ask, and would it really HURT the game? OF course not. It would greatly benefit the game and attract more of a player base.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Obviously, there's a Wilson v Pardo civil war happening here.
I'm sure both guys are professionals and the argument is entirely based on design and business philosophy and has no personal element. Still, it is interesting to behold.
It doesn't matter whether it shows a class is OP or a team is OP. It still gives people something to strive for. As for you, why WOULDN'T you want a feature like that? It's important to the growth of the endgame of Diablo 3. If it shows something's wrong, well then they FIX IT. That's part of being a development team. And almost completely throwing half the community in the dust, with nothing but Team deathmatch, when I'm sure the consensus of people who care about PvP want it as Last Man Standing.
lol so much raging going on over all of the recent news. If they put in a ranked system we'd probably see specific classes/setups that just annihilate basically anything that steps into the arena with them. Lets say the barbarian is just totally OP if you take the right 6 skills and 3 passives even without the perfect rune composition... that means most of the top ranked players would be barbarians but lets keep in mind that there's always crazy side builds that can counter even the most OP stuff. Personally it'd make me try anything I could to see what I could do to beat the ridiculously OP barbs but at the same time I think saying all that and looking at what everybody else has been saying I'm pretty sure we all see the downside to that.. the ranks become generally pointless since its SO much easier to play one class over the other without them re-balancing PvP like it's a totally different game which sucks.. so let's all be happy with the fun team death-match arenas and stop complaining lol
For those of you who'd like to brag about your "rank" you shouldn't fret just yet! keep in mind they did mention the possibility of showing your wins! At least then you can say you're more bad-ass because you've won like 500 times to my 50 right? Alternatively make a hardcore character and duel (however they're going to implement it)! Then you've got yourself a real ranking system. A hardcore character who PvPs and is still alive is obviously bad-ass... no ranks needed
Personally I'm fine with the way PvP is going. Diablo games have never had balanced PvP and that's what makes it so fun. When you take something like WoW or SC2 to compare it with Diablo is a lot more life or death.
In WoW and SC2 you see long extended battles. Especially WoW. You now have resilience, which I hate for world PvP. The fun of world PvP and battle grounds was to be careful, listen, watch, and react fast, resilience takes the edge off of that. You can now take a pretty good beating without stressing about a Pyroblast + PoM + Pyroblast one shotting you.
I do understand the need for such a system in a e-sport environment like Arena, and especially SC2 which has always been a very serious competitive balanced game.
Diablo however has never had balanced PvP, the closest thing we saw to balance in D2 PvP was everyone using enigma, which was a horrible attempt.
I love the chaotic life or death situations D2 and early WoW PvP brought and I hope to see more.
They said they can have mechanics like reduced durations and stuff for pvp, not completely different damage numbers
I assume you're referring to Jay Wilson's quote on their "snowy system" which is the system that's already implemented to separate PvP and PvE ability effects when necessary.
What he ACTUALLY said was that it would get "tricky" when tweaking damage numbers. I would think the vast majority of design development would be classified as "tricky." Tricky doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means it might take a little effort. Explain to me what else the "PvP team" is responsible for if not this?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
They said they can have mechanics like reduced durations and stuff for pvp, not completely different damage numbers
I assume you're referring to Jay Wilson's quote on their "snowy system" which is the system that's already implemented to separate PvP and PvE ability effects when necessary.
What he ACTUALLY said was that it would get "tricky" when tweaking damage numbers. I would think the vast majority of design development would be classified as "tricky." Tricky doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means it might take a little effort. Explain to me what else the "PvP team" is responsible for if not this?
It doesn't matter whether it shows a class is OP or a team is OP. It still gives people something to strive for.
Also if D3 is anything like D2, it's not hard to have lots of characters. In a game like WoW, having multiple max lvl characters and switching between them to follow the PvP balance scene a big time commitment, and the vast majority of people stick to 1 or maybe 2 classes.
In D3 I would assume that it would be the opposite, with most people having multiple characters. This takes away quite a bit from the whining, because people don't have that intense personal stake in balancing for 'their' class when they have a high level character of every class.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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They have to take all character team combinations and all character builds (skills + gear + enchantments + gemstones + runes) in consideration. Thats huge amount of work and would require a really intense internal test season. Right now they didn't even finished the rune systen and surely don't have enough data and feedback to make any kind of balance.
They don't want people frustrated in official ranks of an unpolished and unbalanced game modality. Look, if they put a rank and w/l rates in b.net, people will bitch about pvp balance all the time, while they simply have to overlook PvP for a while in order to polish other aspects of the game.
If you're a die hard PvP fun, i'm sure people all over the internet will creat unnofficial PvP leagues. Join one and play tournaments there. When D3 team is ready too make a good PvP enviorment, they will implement the right support to it.
It's the third time i tell you the reason why they are not making an official visible rank. PvP will be a unpolished modility inside D3. They can't make a rank and say "Cherubdown's team is the #1" if the whole competition systen is broken.
Ranks only works for fair activities. PvP in D3 will not be fair at release. Ranks and victories would problably only means lucky in a paper, stone and scisor game. They don't want people focusing their attention in unpolished parts of the game, like PvP.
What he said here.
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Wise ElderI don't think they should just stay 100% away from it, specially if they know we'll turn it into a major deal. Just make sure it's fully featured and let people know that balance won't be a "top priority" and we'll never have "PvP specific items" - that would be good enough.
Although anything like a "wager" system would be decent enough for me, just to have fun with my friends. And maybe just a "symbolic reward" - like being able to sell "ears" for gold =P
Most of the people ON THIS FORUM would read enough to know that, but I guarantee you this forum represents the BAREST minority of people interested in d3.
Did you even bother reading the OP? PvP can be developed COMPLETELY separate from PvE. The system is already implemented to achieve this, according to the lead developer of the D 3. The "PvP has to suck because otherwise PvE will suffer argument is dead. There is no point in rehashing it over and over in every single thread where PvP is mentioned.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Where did I say it was small? I'm saying the the people on this forum are a minority, not the people interested in pvp are a minority. Reading comprehension classes may be a good idea for your future.
What I am saying is that the MAJORITY of people who are INTERESTED IN DIABLO 3 PVP wouldn't have ANY IDEA that it was not a priority to have it balanced. Is that clear enough?
It doesn't matter where they post it, they could have it PLASTERED on the opening screen, the login screen, the loading screen for the arena, and even the queuing screen for the arena. People would still have NO CLUE at all that it wasn't intended to be a priority.
Your argument is fallacious. No game has ever been or will be completely "fair." There's always balance issues, exploits, bugs, etc etc. Hell, look at WoW in it's current state. There's still overpowered classes and they can't get it right after 7 years. LOOK AT STARTCRAFT, heralded as one of the most competitive e-sport games worldwide. People are constantly complaining about balance issues there. They can't get it perfect and that's all the game is geared toward. THAT'S FINE. Most of us are not expecting a damn E-Sport. What we are expecting is a dedicated team to cater to our version of fun in Diablo 3. I.e. attempting to balance through the evolution of the game and maintaining a respectable, competitive PvP system that doesn't interfere with PvE.
Is that really too much to ask, and would it really HURT the game? OF course not. It would greatly benefit the game and attract more of a player base.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I'm sure both guys are professionals and the argument is entirely based on design and business philosophy and has no personal element. Still, it is interesting to behold.
For those of you who'd like to brag about your "rank" you shouldn't fret just yet! keep in mind they did mention the possibility of showing your wins! At least then you can say you're more bad-ass because you've won like 500 times to my 50 right? Alternatively make a hardcore character and duel (however they're going to implement it)! Then you've got yourself a real ranking system. A hardcore character who PvPs and is still alive is obviously bad-ass... no ranks needed
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Wise ElderIn WoW and SC2 you see long extended battles. Especially WoW. You now have resilience, which I hate for world PvP. The fun of world PvP and battle grounds was to be careful, listen, watch, and react fast, resilience takes the edge off of that. You can now take a pretty good beating without stressing about a Pyroblast + PoM + Pyroblast one shotting you.
I do understand the need for such a system in a e-sport environment like Arena, and especially SC2 which has always been a very serious competitive balanced game.
Diablo however has never had balanced PvP, the closest thing we saw to balance in D2 PvP was everyone using enigma, which was a horrible attempt.
I love the chaotic life or death situations D2 and early WoW PvP brought and I hope to see more.
Blood moor pvp was fun. Too bad its gone forever.
At least I can still be productive at work and not have to farm meph 10 times a day. I can just buy that item instead of crossing my fingers.
RMT usually sucks for the majority of the community, but for some of us its a huge time saver.
I assume you're referring to Jay Wilson's quote on their "snowy system" which is the system that's already implemented to separate PvP and PvE ability effects when necessary.
What he ACTUALLY said was that it would get "tricky" when tweaking damage numbers. I would think the vast majority of design development would be classified as "tricky." Tricky doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means it might take a little effort. Explain to me what else the "PvP team" is responsible for if not this?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
-20% dmg on pvp for all skills so hard
-30% on really high hitting skills so hard
Also if D3 is anything like D2, it's not hard to have lots of characters. In a game like WoW, having multiple max lvl characters and switching between them to follow the PvP balance scene a big time commitment, and the vast majority of people stick to 1 or maybe 2 classes.
In D3 I would assume that it would be the opposite, with most people having multiple characters. This takes away quite a bit from the whining, because people don't have that intense personal stake in balancing for 'their' class when they have a high level character of every class.