There is so much misinformation garbage floating around the community right now. I'd like to clear the waters and make some very important points about the direction of PvP in Diablo 3
Jay Wilson makes a couple of key points in this interview:
1) E-sports will not be encouraged by the Diablo 3 design team (in fact he made it sound like he would actively thwart any attempts)
2) The system for relegating ability effects for PvP and PvE only is already in place, yet at one point in the interview he says "over his dead body" would he let the PvP game alter design decisions. Funny thing is it wouldn't have to affect PvE whatsoever with a system in place that separates the two completely.
3) A ladder system has already been designed (although they're going out of their way to keep it invisible and un-competitive)
I think a couple of things need to be cleared up.
1) The term "casual" in the context of this interview is apparently synonymous with "non-competitive." It appears to me that Jay Wilson sees no middle ground between Diablo 3 as an E-Sport and having absolutely no ranking system with mindless zerg PvP. Is it just me or does this seem like 2 extremes? Why can't we just have a respectable PvP system without "turning the game into an e-sport?" Why the hell is this guy so adamant about not allowing a competitive scene to take hold in Diablo 3?
2) Again, with a system already in place for relegating PvP and PvE abilities, why is this guy such a crusader against a respectable competitive PvP system? It doesn't have to affect PvE in any way. It could only benefit the game and bring in a broader player base when done correctly.
3) Apparently there is already a match-making system implemented. Why go out of your way to keep it hidden?
Would it really be that difficult to appease the players who desire some competitive PvP flavor alongside their PvE in Diablo 3? Would the game REALLY suffer?
I personally think this guy's prejudice against competitive PvP is insanely ridiculous and unfounded, and that there is absolutely no reason that Diablo 3 can not maintain it's strong PvE basis with some fabulous PvP flavoring included.
I'm just hoping it's not to late for the devs to realize their mistake and allow competitive PvPers the opportunity to enjoy Diablo 3 like everyone else.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I agree completely 101%. I've been on a crusade on these forums for the past couple of days trying to make those exact points. To push things further, we need a visible ladder system at least, something to make the arena even worth it to be in the game. E-Sport != Competitive. I need that in my signature.
I agree completely 101%. I've been on a crusade on these forums for the past couple of days trying to make those exact points. To push things further, we need a visible ladder system at least, something to make the arena even worth it to be in the game. E-Sport != Competitive. I need that in my signature.
I don't want to insult the guy, but it really amazes me how blindly fanatical he can be when he's basically equating any form of competitive PvP in Diablo 3 to "E-Sports." Like it's some terrifying thing that would destroy the game. Absolutely ludicrous.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I feel Blizzard's choice so far to avoid hyper a competitive PvP environment is for the best of the fanbase as a whole. Being as non-bias as possible, seeing as I support the choice, I feel in order to be competitive, you have to save stats. Be it win/loss ratios, K/D ratios, fastest kill time, or any other in game happenings, the fact is that no one wants flaws saved on their account for anyone and everyone to see. People obsess over these smudges on their record so much, they'll buy whole accounts for loads of money with better records just so that number 75% turns into a 87%. Frankly, I feel there are enough E-sport games out there right now between console and PC.
On the second tier of reasoning, one could mention that with the real money auction house in place having a competitive atmosphere would lead to people buying more ( <- key word here) items from the auction house, or third party sites. Yes, people will be buying items to win PvP matches, but if you increase the competitiveness that number of people buying items will sore. Is this necessarily a bad thing? It could be, but that's not really the point. The point is it would be fueling a concept that Diablo itself doesn't stand for, and the development team doesn't see fit for the game as a whole.
All and all I will enjoy PvP as just another way to play my character, not to keep a tight win/loss record. All the more reason I support a noncompetitive PvP system.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
I feel Blizzard's choice so far to avoid hyper a competitive PvP environment is for the best of the fanbase as a whole. Being as non-bias as possible, seeing as I support the choice, I feel in order to be competitive, you have to save stats. Be it win/loss ratios, K/D ratios, fastest kill time, or any other in game happenings, the fact is that no one wants flaws saved on their account for anyone and everyone to see. People obsess over these smudges on their record so much, they'll buy whole accounts for loads of money with better records just so that number 75% turns into a 87%. Frankly, I feel there are enough E-sport games out there right now between console and PC.
On the second tier of reasoning, one could mention that with the real money auction house in place having a competitive atmosphere would lead to people buying more ( <- key word here) items from the auction house, or third party sites. Yes, people will be buying items to win PvP matches, but if you increase the competitiveness that number of people buying items will sore. Is this necessarily a bad thing? It could be, but that's not really the point. The point is it would be fueling a concept that Diablo itself doesn't stand for, and the development team doesn't see fit for the game as a whole.
All and all I will enjoy PvP as just another way to play my character, not to keep a tight win/loss record. All the more reason I support a noncompetitive PvP system.
Every time I see the word e-sport being correlated with D3 my faith on humanity dies by a significant %. No1 wants an E-Sport
A non ranked PvP-Mode and ranked mode can be implemented TAAAAA DAAHH!
I don't really care if the development team doesn't see PvP as a big part of the game. The reality is that PvP is a big part of D2. Like it or not by the end of diablo (1.5years) the majority of D2 consisted in PvPing. If PvP became such a huge part of D2 shouldn't the D3 developing team try to make the PvP system even better than in D2 to allow for it to flourish even more?
By forming two different PvP game types you segregate the community.
"What rank are you in PvP right now?"
"I only play non-ranked."
"N00b!"
That's how it'll happen.. This is a reason they don't want an E-sport. Not to mentioned the need for the separation of auction house gear for each PvP type.. Just between those two changes you'd split the game another four ways, farther separating parts of the fanbase.. Hardcore mode is understandable since it's a whole different style of playing the game. A ranked PvP will be no different from regular PvP in play style.
Also the reason PvP is so prevalent in D2 I find to be painfully obvious.. The game is very old, all the the content has been played out, played again, beaten dead with a paddle, resurrected, then shackled to a rock and left for the birds; the only thing left is PvP.. Blizzard North was very slow, and under-par with their expansions, and content additions. Blizzard is known for having full and challenging expansions, not to mention occasional content additions on the fly to keep things fresh. Diablo 3 won't be left to slowly wither away was Diablo 2 was.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
They didn't make a elaborated PvP systen because they didn't have time to do it. D3 development took quite a time (we all know that T_T) and PvP are not something easy to do. A good PvP game requires a lot of attention and development and they barely finished the PvE part of the game in time (beta might begin at any momment and the rune systen, one of the game's signature, is not even ready to run!).
They basically don't have time to balance and creat a PvP systen until the release. So they prefer to not put a lot of PvP content in the game because they don't want a lot of people playing pvp and seeing the uggly and unpolished side of the game.
From the release, people should problably spend time playing PvE and doing the achievements wich is surely the very very polished part of D3. Sooner or later part of the community will get tired of it and will start to demand more pvp attention. By there they will have more skill / item data for the balance and more time too plan things better. Then the pvp content will be launched when they are ready to do it.
By forming two different PvP game types you segregate the community.
"What rank are you in PvP right now?"
"I only play non-ranked."
"N00b!"
That's how it'll happen.. This is a reason they don't want an E-sport. Not to mentioned the need for the separation of auction house gear for each PvP type.. Just between those two changes you'd split the game another four ways, farther separating parts of the fanbase.. Hardcore mode is understandable since it's a whole different style of playing the game. A ranked PvP will be no different from regular PvP in play style.
Also the reason PvP is so prevalent in D2 I find to be painfully obvious.. The game is very old, all the the content has been played out, played again, beaten dead with a paddle, resurrected, then shackled to a rock and left for the birds; the only thing left is PvP.. Blizzard North was very slow, and under-par with their expansions, and content additions. Blizzard is known for having full and challenging expansions, not to mention occasional content additions on the fly to keep things fresh. Diablo 3 won't be left to slowly wither away was Diablo 2 was.
So make the noobs happy and no one else? What kind of logic is that? Too bad if it segegrates them.
That's not why. D3 will be the same since all Diablo games are basically a gear grind.
They didn't make a elaborated PvP systen because they didn't have time to do it. D3 development took quite a time (we all know that T_T) and PvP are not something easy to do. A good PvP game requires a lot of attention and development and they barely finished the PvE part of the game in time (beta might begin at any momment and the rune systen, one of the game's signature, is not even ready to run!).
They basically don't have time to balance and creat a PvP systen until the release. So they prefer to not put a lot of PvP content in the game because they don't want a lot of people playing pvp and seeing the uggly and unpolished side of the game.
From the release, people should problably spend time playing PvE and doing the achievements wich is surely the very very polished part of D3. Sooner or later part of the community will get tired of it and will start to demand more pvp attention. By there they will have more skill / item data for the balance and more time too plan things better. Then the pvp content will be launched when they are ready to do it.
all they have to do is change spell dmg/stun times/slow times for PvP for balance(in the process of doing that)
Make a ranking (they have that done but it's in invisible form all they have to do is make it visible)
Make a matchmaking system (in the process of doing that)
Make TDM AND LSM options (they already have LSM designed pretty much - blizzcon)
They can easily polish all they already started by shipping date
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.” - Albert Einstein
They didn't make a elaborated PvP systen because they didn't have time to do it. D3 development took quite a time (we all know that T_T) and PvP are not something easy to do. A good PvP game requires a lot of attention and development and they barely finished the PvE part of the game in time (beta might begin at any momment and the rune systen, one of the game's signature, is not even ready to run!).
They basically don't have time to balance and creat a PvP systen until the release. So they prefer to not put a lot of PvP content in the game because they don't want a lot of people playing pvp and seeing the uggly and unpolished side of the game.
From the release, people should problably spend time playing PvE and doing the achievements wich is surely the very very polished part of D3. Sooner or later part of the community will get tired of it and will start to demand more pvp attention. By there they will have more skill / item data for the balance and more time too plan things better. Then the pvp content will be launched when they are ready to do it.
Finally someone with common sense. Just cause It isn't there at launch doesn't mean they wont add it. Winged said it first but I will reiterate it, The only reason D2 was so big on PvP if at all was because it was overplayed. But blizzard so far has kept all their games fresh and new, Blizzard south that is. Everyone here bitching about only TDM is retarded cause he clearly states they are working on other modes but they won't be around for release. Remember this games more than 10 years in the making I don't want it delayed another year or two just cause whiners are requesting a super competitive feature that the majority of the community doesn't care for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
Diablo 3 is, and shall always be, a PvE game. The PvP Arena is something they support, but it's not supposed to be a very balanced experience and it most certainly is not meant to be an Esport. And I completely agree with that decision. Don't get me wrong. I love me some PvP action, but only so far as to have some fun with friends. If you want Esports, you'll have to play Starcraft.
Edit: I realize some people want it to be a lot more competitive, and I sympathize, but for those people I think the bottom line is that's not going to happen.
Edit 2:
Why the hell is this guy so adamant about not allowing a competitive scene to take hold in Diablo 3?
This is my personal opinion and only speculation, but I think the main reason is because having a ranking system and matchmaking and all that jazz really isn't as easy as one might think to develop. Those types of systems are actually really complex and require a shit ton of testing. And if Blizzard is going to do anything at all, they're going to do it damn well and I don't think they're willing to do it. If they did, they'd have to maintain that system as well, and it WOULD have to have some sort of separate ladder reset system. This really confuses the entire Battle.net experience altogether.
There's a pretty simple reason not to make pvp majorly competetive.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
There's a pretty simple reason not to make pvp majorly competetive.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
not necessarily
but STILL I don't see the problem with balancing a bit
if they notice a build raping too hard in PvP all they have to do is lower their dmg a bit but it's not necesarilly needed
There's a pretty simple reason not to make pvp majorly competetive.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
not necessarily
but STILL I don't see the problem with balancing a bit
if they notice a build raping too hard in PvP all they have to do is lower their dmg a bit but it's not necesarilly needed
Because Diablo is, was, and always will be primarily a pve game. If you tweak damage down for an ability and break a viable pve build, you're hurting the game.
Also, remember, the fun of Diablo pvp is trying to find those overpowered combos and then seeing what others come up with to counter them. Balancing it is counter to a large core of the fun of diablo pvp.
If you haven't already, watch this interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E452S_fJwA&feature=player_embedded
Jay Wilson makes a couple of key points in this interview:
1) E-sports will not be encouraged by the Diablo 3 design team (in fact he made it sound like he would actively thwart any attempts)
2) The system for relegating ability effects for PvP and PvE only is already in place, yet at one point in the interview he says "over his dead body" would he let the PvP game alter design decisions. Funny thing is it wouldn't have to affect PvE whatsoever with a system in place that separates the two completely.
3) A ladder system has already been designed (although they're going out of their way to keep it invisible and un-competitive)
I think a couple of things need to be cleared up.
1) The term "casual" in the context of this interview is apparently synonymous with "non-competitive." It appears to me that Jay Wilson sees no middle ground between Diablo 3 as an E-Sport and having absolutely no ranking system with mindless zerg PvP. Is it just me or does this seem like 2 extremes? Why can't we just have a respectable PvP system without "turning the game into an e-sport?" Why the hell is this guy so adamant about not allowing a competitive scene to take hold in Diablo 3?
2) Again, with a system already in place for relegating PvP and PvE abilities, why is this guy such a crusader against a respectable competitive PvP system? It doesn't have to affect PvE in any way. It could only benefit the game and bring in a broader player base when done correctly.
3) Apparently there is already a match-making system implemented. Why go out of your way to keep it hidden?
Would it really be that difficult to appease the players who desire some competitive PvP flavor alongside their PvE in Diablo 3? Would the game REALLY suffer?
I personally think this guy's prejudice against competitive PvP is insanely ridiculous and unfounded, and that there is absolutely no reason that Diablo 3 can not maintain it's strong PvE basis with some fabulous PvP flavoring included.
I'm just hoping it's not to late for the devs to realize their mistake and allow competitive PvPers the opportunity to enjoy Diablo 3 like everyone else.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I don't want to insult the guy, but it really amazes me how blindly fanatical he can be when he's basically equating any form of competitive PvP in Diablo 3 to "E-Sports." Like it's some terrifying thing that would destroy the game. Absolutely ludicrous.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Do it.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822632733&postId=278201088621&sid=3000#0
On the second tier of reasoning, one could mention that with the real money auction house in place having a competitive atmosphere would lead to people buying more ( <- key word here) items from the auction house, or third party sites. Yes, people will be buying items to win PvP matches, but if you increase the competitiveness that number of people buying items will sore. Is this necessarily a bad thing? It could be, but that's not really the point. The point is it would be fueling a concept that Diablo itself doesn't stand for, and the development team doesn't see fit for the game as a whole.
All and all I will enjoy PvP as just another way to play my character, not to keep a tight win/loss record. All the more reason I support a noncompetitive PvP system.
A non ranked PvP-Mode and ranked mode can be implemented TAAAAA DAAHH!
I don't really care if the development team doesn't see PvP as a big part of the game. The reality is that PvP is a big part of D2. Like it or not by the end of diablo (1.5years) the majority of D2 consisted in PvPing. If PvP became such a huge part of D2 shouldn't the D3 developing team try to make the PvP system even better than in D2 to allow for it to flourish even more?
By forming two different PvP game types you segregate the community.
"What rank are you in PvP right now?"
"I only play non-ranked."
"N00b!"
That's how it'll happen.. This is a reason they don't want an E-sport. Not to mentioned the need for the separation of auction house gear for each PvP type.. Just between those two changes you'd split the game another four ways, farther separating parts of the fanbase.. Hardcore mode is understandable since it's a whole different style of playing the game. A ranked PvP will be no different from regular PvP in play style.
Also the reason PvP is so prevalent in D2 I find to be painfully obvious.. The game is very old, all the the content has been played out, played again, beaten dead with a paddle, resurrected, then shackled to a rock and left for the birds; the only thing left is PvP.. Blizzard North was very slow, and under-par with their expansions, and content additions. Blizzard is known for having full and challenging expansions, not to mention occasional content additions on the fly to keep things fresh. Diablo 3 won't be left to slowly wither away was Diablo 2 was.
They basically don't have time to balance and creat a PvP systen until the release. So they prefer to not put a lot of PvP content in the game because they don't want a lot of people playing pvp and seeing the uggly and unpolished side of the game.
From the release, people should problably spend time playing PvE and doing the achievements wich is surely the very very polished part of D3. Sooner or later part of the community will get tired of it and will start to demand more pvp attention. By there they will have more skill / item data for the balance and more time too plan things better. Then the pvp content will be launched when they are ready to do it.
So make the noobs happy and no one else? What kind of logic is that? Too bad if it segegrates them.
That's not why. D3 will be the same since all Diablo games are basically a gear grind.
Gear grind -> PvP
that's why
all they have to do is change spell dmg/stun times/slow times for PvP for balance(in the process of doing that)
Make a ranking (they have that done but it's in invisible form all they have to do is make it visible)
Make a matchmaking system (in the process of doing that)
Make TDM AND LSM options (they already have LSM designed pretty much - blizzcon)
They can easily polish all they already started by shipping date
Then as time passes they can keep polishing
With a noncompetitive PvP there are no noobs, so there are no noobs to make happy.
Finally someone with common sense. Just cause It isn't there at launch doesn't mean they wont add it. Winged said it first but I will reiterate it, The only reason D2 was so big on PvP if at all was because it was overplayed. But blizzard so far has kept all their games fresh and new, Blizzard south that is. Everyone here bitching about only TDM is retarded cause he clearly states they are working on other modes but they won't be around for release. Remember this games more than 10 years in the making I don't want it delayed another year or two just cause whiners are requesting a super competitive feature that the majority of the community doesn't care for.
Edit: I realize some people want it to be a lot more competitive, and I sympathize, but for those people I think the bottom line is that's not going to happen.
Edit 2:
This is my personal opinion and only speculation, but I think the main reason is because having a ranking system and matchmaking and all that jazz really isn't as easy as one might think to develop. Those types of systems are actually really complex and require a shit ton of testing. And if Blizzard is going to do anything at all, they're going to do it damn well and I don't think they're willing to do it. If they did, they'd have to maintain that system as well, and it WOULD have to have some sort of separate ladder reset system. This really confuses the entire Battle.net experience altogether.
Once you put in a system where people are ranked, then you have to work on balance. This game isn't like WoW where you have a pretty finite number of builds or sc2 where you have a finite number of units. This game has in the millions of potential combinations per character. Balancing that would probably take decades of work... and do you REALLY want the game to be delayed to 2042 just so they can put in a solid competetive pvp system? That is of course assuming balancing it would even be POSSIBLE with that many combinations.
but STILL I don't see the problem with balancing a bit
if they notice a build raping too hard in PvP all they have to do is lower their dmg a bit but it's not necesarilly needed
Because Diablo is, was, and always will be primarily a pve game. If you tweak damage down for an ability and break a viable pve build, you're hurting the game.
Also, remember, the fun of Diablo pvp is trying to find those overpowered combos and then seeing what others come up with to counter them. Balancing it is counter to a large core of the fun of diablo pvp.