I'm going to openly talk about the game cinematics found here. You have been warned.
So yeah, we see Tyrael willingly give up his place in Angiris council, and he falls down to Sanctuary becoming... human. How the eff does that work? Humans are (degraded) offspring of Angels and Demons, you can't just turn into one. In the cinematics Tyrael says that he is now "mortal", rather than "human", but that's just arguing semantics. He took on the form of a human, walks, talks and acts like a human, and most importantly, bleeds like a human. There is nothing human-like in angels, as we are made aware in the various novels and stories, so why then did this happen?
Obviously those are out-of-context cinematics, and I do hope this is explained further in the game. If not, then I will be extremely disappointed, Blizzard had nearly a decade to figure this out, and they can't be this lazy.
Humans are (degraded) offspring of Angels and Demons
Humans are closer to the original version of Anu than either Angels or Demons, in the sense that they encompass light and dark, good and evil, and the ability to be both and/or choose without being bound to one or the other. Think of it as a 're-evolution' if you will. One of the reasons the heavens and the hells both fear what humans could become.
With this in mind, I can only imagine Tyrael being a true human if he now had the capacity for evil. (This doesnt mean he has to be evil or become corrupted - but he has to have the capacity for it). Because one cant simply 'be human' in the Diablo story sense, unless you embodied the ability to be good or evil. Isnt that what the Nephalum were all about? The sum of Angels and demons, embodying both, with the power to be greater. Being human means you have the ability to be and encompass both, and arent bound to being a being 'of light' or 'of darkness' for all eternity.
---
I think an answer to this thread is basically summed up as Tyrael now sees humans as an evolution of Angels and Demons to embrace. This would signal a pretty big change in the story, because they're currently thought of as 'the degraded offspring of angels and demons' - and even feared. But now can be revered as beings that aren't bound to their birthright (light or dark) and each other in the way that Angels and Demons are. Free. And that this makes humans not only more powerful, but represents a better way to exist.
This doesnt mean Tyrael 100% is human , but he can still follow a human path (of choice) and aspire to embody what it represents to be human, which is the ability to be free to choose between good and evil and not bound by your birthright or your fate.
Humans are (degraded) offspring of Angels and Demons
Humans are closer to the original version of Anu than either Angels or Demons, in the sense that they encompass light and dark, good and evil, and the ability to be both and/or choose without being bound to one or the other. Think of it as a 're-evolution' if you will. One of the reasons the heavens and the hells both fear what humans could become.
With this in mind, I can only imagine Tyrael being a true human if he had the capacity for evil and to be corrupted.... (This doesnt mean he has to be evil or become corrupted - but he has to have the capacity for it). Because one cant simply 'be human' in the story sense unless you embodied the ability to be of good or of evil. Isnt that what the Nephalum were? The sum of Angels and demons, embodying both, with the power to be greater.
True, but angels do not simply "become" humans, regardless of their capacity for good or evil. If that were the case, Imperius would become human long ago, as he is clearly shown as the most corrupt angel. You are correct that the heavens and hells fear what humans could become, rightfully so. Why would they do so if they could simply become humans themselves, like Tyrael apparently did? Tyrael had no demon inside of him to "sum up", ergo he cannot become human.
I don't think he became mortal in that sense. Blizz said somewhere that they cant become demons nor humans, but can be "fallen", which is what i think he did. In the Cinematics, he still has angelic abilities (reaching into dreams to pull Leah out for instance, as well as showing her the past)
I edited my post, Choda, with a few lines that would explain it. Tyrael 'being human' is more a metaphor. He doesnt have to be human in the physical sense , but he wants to embody what it represents to be human. As said above, hes clearly still magical and has angelic abilities.
--
I think an answer to this thread is basically summed up as Tyrael now sees humans as an evolution of Angels and Demons to embrace. This would signal a pretty big change in the story, because they're currently thought of as 'the degraded offspring of angels and demons' - and even feared. But now can be revered as beings that aren't bound to their birthright (light or dark) and each other in the way that Angels and Demons are. Free. And that this makes humans not only more powerful, but represents a better way to exist.
This doesnt mean Tyrael 100% is human , but he can still follow a human path (of choice) and aspire to embody what it represents to be human, which is the ability to be free to choose between good and evil and not bound by your birthright or your fate.
--
I wouldn't get too caught up on whether Tyrael 'is a real human - omg'. I think it's more of a metaphor for Tyrael willingly embracing what it represents to be human (in the context of the Diablo story). People will have differing opinions on how to answer that, but as said above, my take is humans are free in a way that angels/demons never were, are or could be. And this freedom empowers them with the ability for choice, which in turn represents a better way to exist. Once Tyrael recognises that, no wonder he is humbled so much he aspires to be one.
Choda you seem to alot more about the lore than I do which your desire for this all to be explained seems to be stemed from. I did not realize they are made of light and sound, I assumed they had bodies like humans under that armor. Maybe they retconned this part of the lore like they have for other things just to make this story line work better. It definetly makes more sense to me if the angels allready had physical bodies and don't magically gain one when their wings come off.
I think Tyrian is on the right path of thought. Tyrael didn't die from falling and still has some angelic abilities, so he can't be truely human.
You might want this Tyrael issue expalined, but I want them to expalin just how in the hell light and sound can hold up plate armor lol.
Everyone here makes a good case, but I am still not buying it without a proper in-game explanation. I suppose we'll know tomorrow midnight (Yey for EU).
Well.. I got some of it.. The twists are kind of mind blowing.
Act 1 - I guessed what the meteor was... didnt so much get the rest of it (why and how the meteor came to be), or the implications (cain).
Act 2 - I guessed that the black soulstone was the remainder of the evils power.. not so much what the use of it going forward was.
Act 3 - Leahblo was a foregone conclusion... the actual motivations and execution of it I never would have guessed.
Act 4 - Whoa..That kind of blew my mind.
Both Angels and Demons resemble humans. Most demons are humanoid in appearance, and Lilith and Andariel look particularly human. Angels are also humanoid, though their "essence", I guess we can say, is contained within their wings. In fact, the way Metzen talked at the Lore Panel last year, he said the wings were the literal manifestation of an angel, with the body and armor being akin to hands.
When stripped of his wings, the wings fall away and leave behind its "hands". Perhaps this is simply an aspect of the overall entity that was once Tyrael? His being is now sundered, substantially weakened. The Wings may have transcended or become one with the Arch again, leaving behind his memory and will in the "Hands."
What's the purpose of all this, if he's only becoming weakened? Well, his actions in Sanctuary were reduced both because of laws governing Angels in the mortal realm, and restrained by his own kin. Stripping himself of his angelic raimant weakened him but allowed him to guide humanity directly.
I'm still disappointed by this turn of events though. I was hoping Imperius would imprison Tyrael's spirit within a human vessel. =[
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow
Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?
The road's goal is the dark Origin of Being
But be wary through what thickets it winds.
-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
Let me give you the explanation, blunt and simple. Diablo (lore, games, books and all that) is a franchise made for kids, teenagers and gaming adults. This means the people here are not very bright and are not expecting a logically sound masterpiece a la Dostoyevsky or Shakespeare or whatever other good story.
It's a franchise made for you to kill shit catering to the same kids that like Twilight, Harry Potter. You can get away with shit in order to make it feel "epic" and the player to feel "awesome and important". Whatever that means.
You're assuming every kid, teenager, and "gaming adult" isn't bright? lol... I'm guessing you're one of the three. This is honestly a stupid answer to the OP's question. It has nothing to do with the fact that D3's audience has a "lack of intelligence," or the inability to pick up on plot holes. They just went for a twist in the story without making it completely in-line with the previously released lore. It fit with what they were trying to do with D3's story- so they did it.
Ok so I didn't read much of the thread but I have a (maybe) solution? Well In the Sin Wars, Inarius posed as a human...who says Tyrael couldn't do the same?
He didn't become human, just mortal. Its [frustratingly] unexplained why he looks human (seriously, one dialogue thread is all that needed), but he wasn't human. He was simply a mortal angel. When people are refering to him as "one of us," it is far more likely that they just mean mortal.
Were he actually Nephalem, it would have been clearly stated as such. In fact, he is still referred to as an angel several times and when you reach heaven Imperius referrers to YOU as nephalem, and separates Tyrael from these statements.
Mmm, well I assumed it was part and parcel of being banished to Sanctuary. Like maybe a mortal form imprisons him there. I mean, it had to be something corporeal because he doesn't seem to normally have a body, and I guess they went with human because Archangel Tyrael the Fetish Shaman might've been a bit hard to take seriously. Note that at the end he reassumes his Angelic duties but "as a mortal", whatever that means.
Were he actually Nephalem, it would have been clearly stated as such. In fact, he is still referred to as an angel several times and when you reach heaven Imperius referrers to YOU as nephalem, and separates Tyrael from these statements.
Also, presumably if he were Nephalem he would also have no "fate" as Ithereal says and would be free to kill Diablo himself.
My real question is, now that Tyreal is mortal, what happens to Justice, or Wisdom, should he die?
From what I can gather and speculate, before when he wou;ld "die" he would eventually reform and reemerge fromt he Crystal Arch. With the removal of his wings, he separated his spirit (for lack of a better descriptor) fromt he CA and made it so that if he dies now, he will not reform and reemerge, thus rendering him mortal.
It seems like a pretty big deal that Justice, and now Wisdom, may be lost to the Heavens should he die. Pretty big risks to take. Will there be a new aspect of Justice? Does this new aspect come when Tyrael dies, or did he start to form the moment Tyrael separated himself fromt eh CA? How did Tyrael become the aspect of Wisdom (and I mean more so beyond the fact that when you look at it, he wasn't very wise at all)? They make it pretty clear that the archangles are really physical representations of what they represent, and in some way affect that concepts ability to exist and be felt (particularly by other angels). So how then could could Tyrael completely change what he was? It would make sense if at the end of the game instead of staying mortal, he had to become re-attuned to the CA to join the Council again, only this time he attuned to Wisdom rather than Justice; but instead we're left with what is him ostensibly just deciding to be Wisdom.
I find the entire Tyrael plot line to be the worst plot line, and biggest flaw, in Diablo 3. It isn't conceptually that abysmal, but its delivery is downright awful. I really hope these gaps in logic and story are explained and fleshed out in coming expansions. Doesn't have to be much, just some dialogue threads.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So yeah, we see Tyrael willingly give up his place in Angiris council, and he falls down to Sanctuary becoming... human. How the eff does that work? Humans are (degraded) offspring of Angels and Demons, you can't just turn into one. In the cinematics Tyrael says that he is now "mortal", rather than "human", but that's just arguing semantics. He took on the form of a human, walks, talks and acts like a human, and most importantly, bleeds like a human. There is nothing human-like in angels, as we are made aware in the various novels and stories, so why then did this happen?
Obviously those are out-of-context cinematics, and I do hope this is explained further in the game. If not, then I will be extremely disappointed, Blizzard had nearly a decade to figure this out, and they can't be this lazy.
Which part did Tyrael bleed like a human? I think I missed that part.
What I don't understand, is that Tyrael became mortal when he took of his wings, yet he survives a giant fiery crash from heaven to sanctuary.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumHumans are closer to the original version of Anu than either Angels or Demons, in the sense that they encompass light and dark, good and evil, and the ability to be both and/or choose without being bound to one or the other. Think of it as a 're-evolution' if you will.
With this in mind, I can only imagine Tyrael being a true human if he now had the capacity for evil. (This doesnt mean he has to be evil or become corrupted - but he has to have the capacity for it). Because one cant simply 'be human' in the Diablo story sense, unless you embodied the ability to be good or evil. Isnt that what the Nephalum were all about? The sum of Angels and demons, embodying both, with the power to be greater. Being human means you have the ability to be and encompass both, and arent bound to being a being 'of light' or 'of darkness' for all eternity.
---
I think an answer to this thread is basically summed up as Tyrael now sees humans as an evolution of Angels and Demons to embrace. This would signal a pretty big change in the story, because they're currently thought of as 'the degraded offspring of angels and demons' - and even feared. But now can be revered as beings that aren't bound to their birthright (light or dark) and each other in the way that Angels and Demons are. Free. And that this makes humans not only more powerful, but represents a better way to exist.
This doesnt mean Tyrael 100% is human , but he can still follow a human path (of choice) and aspire to embody what it represents to be human, which is the ability to be free to choose between good and evil and not bound by your birthright or your fate.
By the fact that angels are made out of light and sound and have no faces. Humans are a tad fleshier.
Sorry, that was me just being overly-dramatic. However, being mortal, one can assume that he bleeds.
Which is the reason I hope they will properly explain this in the game.
True, but angels do not simply "become" humans, regardless of their capacity for good or evil. If that were the case, Imperius would become human long ago, as he is clearly shown as the most corrupt angel. You are correct that the heavens and hells fear what humans could become, rightfully so. Why would they do so if they could simply become humans themselves, like Tyrael apparently did? Tyrael had no demon inside of him to "sum up", ergo he cannot become human.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium--
I think an answer to this thread is basically summed up as Tyrael now sees humans as an evolution of Angels and Demons to embrace. This would signal a pretty big change in the story, because they're currently thought of as 'the degraded offspring of angels and demons' - and even feared. But now can be revered as beings that aren't bound to their birthright (light or dark) and each other in the way that Angels and Demons are. Free. And that this makes humans not only more powerful, but represents a better way to exist.
This doesnt mean Tyrael 100% is human , but he can still follow a human path (of choice) and aspire to embody what it represents to be human, which is the ability to be free to choose between good and evil and not bound by your birthright or your fate.
--
I wouldn't get too caught up on whether Tyrael 'is a real human - omg'. I think it's more of a metaphor for Tyrael willingly embracing what it represents to be human (in the context of the Diablo story). People will have differing opinions on how to answer that, but as said above, my take is humans are free in a way that angels/demons never were, are or could be. And this freedom empowers them with the ability for choice, which in turn represents a better way to exist. Once Tyrael recognises that, no wonder he is humbled so much he aspires to be one.
I think Tyrian is on the right path of thought. Tyrael didn't die from falling and still has some angelic abilities, so he can't be truely human.
You might want this Tyrael issue expalined, but I want them to expalin just how in the hell light and sound can hold up plate armor lol.
a mortal archangel
not a human
he still have his powers
Act 1 - I guessed what the meteor was... didnt so much get the rest of it (why and how the meteor came to be), or the implications (cain).
Act 2 - I guessed that the black soulstone was the remainder of the evils power.. not so much what the use of it going forward was.
Act 3 - Leahblo was a foregone conclusion... the actual motivations and execution of it I never would have guessed.
Act 4 - Whoa..That kind of blew my mind.
Epic.
Even if it says spoiler, you shouldn't exactly make thread titles that spoil things (ie. the Tyrael plot).
I suppose you really just could not wait until day to talk about it.
Boo-hoo.
When stripped of his wings, the wings fall away and leave behind its "hands". Perhaps this is simply an aspect of the overall entity that was once Tyrael? His being is now sundered, substantially weakened. The Wings may have transcended or become one with the Arch again, leaving behind his memory and will in the "Hands."
What's the purpose of all this, if he's only becoming weakened? Well, his actions in Sanctuary were reduced both because of laws governing Angels in the mortal realm, and restrained by his own kin. Stripping himself of his angelic raimant weakened him but allowed him to guide humanity directly.
I'm still disappointed by this turn of events though. I was hoping Imperius would imprison Tyrael's spirit within a human vessel. =[
All in the Forger's wake is left bereft and fallow-Excerpt from the Litany of Residuum;
As Translated by He Who Brings Order
You're assuming every kid, teenager, and "gaming adult" isn't bright? lol... I'm guessing you're one of the three. This is honestly a stupid answer to the OP's question. It has nothing to do with the fact that D3's audience has a "lack of intelligence," or the inability to pick up on plot holes. They just went for a twist in the story without making it completely in-line with the previously released lore. It fit with what they were trying to do with D3's story- so they did it.
Congrats, nerds.
Were he actually Nephalem, it would have been clearly stated as such. In fact, he is still referred to as an angel several times and when you reach heaven Imperius referrers to YOU as nephalem, and separates Tyrael from these statements.
You sure? There doesn't actually seem to be anything inside those hoods and armour...
Also, presumably if he were Nephalem he would also have no "fate" as Ithereal says and would be free to kill Diablo himself.
From what I can gather and speculate, before when he wou;ld "die" he would eventually reform and reemerge fromt he Crystal Arch. With the removal of his wings, he separated his spirit (for lack of a better descriptor) fromt he CA and made it so that if he dies now, he will not reform and reemerge, thus rendering him mortal.
It seems like a pretty big deal that Justice, and now Wisdom, may be lost to the Heavens should he die. Pretty big risks to take. Will there be a new aspect of Justice? Does this new aspect come when Tyrael dies, or did he start to form the moment Tyrael separated himself fromt eh CA? How did Tyrael become the aspect of Wisdom (and I mean more so beyond the fact that when you look at it, he wasn't very wise at all)? They make it pretty clear that the archangles are really physical representations of what they represent, and in some way affect that concepts ability to exist and be felt (particularly by other angels). So how then could could Tyrael completely change what he was? It would make sense if at the end of the game instead of staying mortal, he had to become re-attuned to the CA to join the Council again, only this time he attuned to Wisdom rather than Justice; but instead we're left with what is him ostensibly just deciding to be Wisdom.
I find the entire Tyrael plot line to be the worst plot line, and biggest flaw, in Diablo 3. It isn't conceptually that abysmal, but its delivery is downright awful. I really hope these gaps in logic and story are explained and fleshed out in coming expansions. Doesn't have to be much, just some dialogue threads.