You're proud of a character with no spec at all? How is leeching your way to 99 without contributing anything at all something to be proud of? No offense, I just don't understand why that would be something to put pride in.
Exactly my thoughts, once I saw this in your thread I completely lost any respect for your or your post. I despised those would go into every cow run and not contribute at all. All the way to 99? For shame... :\
Sorry you feel that way, and I truly regret even mentioning my pally in this thread as his creation was neither here nor there in the context of this discussion.
For the record though, I did have a unique/odd build planned for him. I was unable to acquire all of the charms that I needed for it however and I eventually lost interest in LOD entirely.
That said, I really appreciate everyone's take on respeccing. I'm praying that some of you are right in your assumption that D3 will give us a surplus of viable builds. Having 3-5 viable builds per class would be an amazing feet IMO.
Wholesale respeccing still scares me though. Here's to hoping Bashiok isn't exaggerating when he says it will be easier to reroll then to respec.
Although I can't tell if your serious, CoD: an unforgiving learning curve? really?
Not trying to compare COD to CS or anything... but IMO, yes there's fairly large gap between a good competition player and your average pub bunny allstar.
Having 3-5 viable builds per class would be an amazing feet IMO.
They are going to have far more than that my friend there was barely 3 viable builds per class in diablo 2 right?
yeah, get prepared to have your mind blown in this aspect.
My issue with the re-spec doesn't have anything to do with the e-peen aspect of gaming. I played 1.13 and I'm pretty sure I never even used the respec, even though it is right there stairing you in the face for free. The reason for that is because for me, it's just more fun to start new characters.
Most exciting part about DII for me was thinking up/finding new builds I wanted to try and making new characters. Life (or in this case, fun in a silly video game) is a journey, not a destination.
That being said, I think the respec should be in the game for whomever wants to use it. I probably will at some point while I'm still figuring out how skills work... or maybe not, but there's no real reason it shouldn't be in the game.
First off, I suggest throwing away the word "re-spec." Instead, let's call it what it is: Skill replacement. It's been repeated over and over that there will be no full re-specs. But for a cost, you can get one or two skill points back, and re-allocate them as needed.
What's wrong with putting a cap on the amount of times someone respecs? Like a limit of one time per player..
I tend to be the type of gamer that has very few actual characters, and likes to continually perfect my main. One rebuttal to a limit on skill replacement is this: Continual patching, as well as new content (DLC or dynamic end-game, etc) may very well change the needs of my characters. I don't want to have to grind a new character to max level and gear him up because, in my pursuit of perfection, I've "run out" of skill replacements on my main.
Also, I want to replace PvE specific skills with PvP skills once I reach max level and decide to have a go at PvP.
On a more general note, I disagree completely with the OP. As I said in my previous paragraph, I don't like discarding characters. Skill replacement allows the chance to experiment and explore with skills, builds and rune/trait/item combinations far more extensively than just being stuck with your original skills forever. Why? Because you're not afraid of "breaking" a character you've put tons of hours into. But you take it seriously because it will cost you gold which = time. This fact will contribute to more variation in end-game builds and characters. It will stave off the "cookie cutter" build BS that really makes a game stale quickly.
Skill replacement will also likely be a big gold-sink, which is very important to maintaining a healthy economy. Gold sinks prevent inflation, which will keep it painful to replace skills. It's a feedback mechanism.
Skill replacement will also prevent skill point hoarding, something that Blizzard has stated is a goal of their design, and I agree with on principle.
Finally, once I read the bit about how the OP obviously abused the botting/powerleveling of D2, and formed all his opinions around the presumption that that's how leveling will work in D3, his credibility went plop in the terlet.
Edit:
I'm gonna add a commentary here. I'm surprised that people think skill replacement will cause cookie-cutter builds. It's actually quite the contrary. Why? Most people become reliant on build guides because they're afraid of messing up their character, not because they want to be super-OP. But once the idea sets in that "I can't design the best character on my own," THEN people will depend on copycatting, because they don't believe there's any variation left.
If players are encouraged to experiment, they will feel empowered, and will keep seeking the holy grail build. A sense of personal ownership of not only avatar, but knowledge and expertise, will push gamers to rely on their own ingenuity. This is SO positive for the game.
I for one hope that not a single guide comes out for any class, ever. That the core community in Diablo 3 all share their knowledge, but always push each other to experiment. If no one thought they could do it better, nothing would ever get better.
That's my cool story, bro. Hope you love it. It loves you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
For making mistakes, or decide you don't want a particular skill it should be simple to do a few skill replacements
but if you wanted to completely redo your character? RESPEC that should cost copious amounts of gold, or something
or perhaps do a certain difficult quest
However, the OP has a point hidden in here that is very important. That is how different players measure prestige. Being the top of the PvP scene is one way and having a great character is another (define this as you will, I disagree with how the OP described it 'cause that's called reading guide, but there are other ways that it can be defined).
While Blizzard is trying their best to please the casual crowd (a noble task) something like preventing respeccing in hardcore would please those who find respeccing too kind by giving them a way to put themselves above others. Something that many gamers play to be able to do (its primal they can't help it). So long as they aren't belligerent about it it makes that groups experience better without hurting anyone. And hardcore is not where you test a build anyway so everyone else shouldn't have a problem with it right?
A lot of what hass been said here is are very good points, but I think that the core of the OP's concern has some merit and should be addressed by Blizzard if they want to interest that group in this game
That's actually a very good midway point. I think that would be an excellent idea. Hardcore is meant to be hard, anyway.
However, the OP has a point hidden in here that is very important. That is how different players measure prestige. Being the top of the PvP scene is one way and having a great character is another (define this as you will, I disagree with how the OP described it 'cause that's called reading guide, but there are other ways that it can be defined).
While Blizzard is trying their best to please the casual crowd (a noble task) something like preventing respeccing in hardcore would please those who find respeccing too kind by giving them a way to put themselves above others. Something that many gamers play to be able to do (its primal they can't help it). So long as they aren't belligerent about it it makes that groups experience better without hurting anyone. And hardcore is not where you test a build anyway so everyone else shouldn't have a problem with it right?
A lot of what hass been said here is are very good points, but I think that the core of the OP's concern has some merit and should be addressed by Blizzard if they want to interest that group in this game
That's actually a very good midway point. I think that would be an excellent idea. Hardcore is meant to be hard, anyway.
I can actually get behind this. If you make a hardcore character, you're saying: If I screw up, this character is ruined. That should also apply to skill/trait allocation. If you mess up your character, you have to re-roll.
I still vehemently defend the idea of skill replacement though, in non-hardcore games. It's not right to continually punish a player in the present for mistakes made in the past, even though they've learned from them, by preventing skill replacement.
Again, I argue this will make most players too afraid to experiment with builds, and thus create a dumbed-down, guide-reliant gaming atmosphere that I sure as hell could do without.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
-Thomas Jefferson
I would have no problem with hardcore having no respeccs (Except MAYBE rune replacement - as that is STILL key - not point being stuck with level 1 runes for the whole game or not using runes just because you are waiting for the higher level ones several hours down the line).
Rune replacement isn't in the same category. Runes are freely movable with some sort of unknown restrictions.
But...I too think the idea of no hardcore respecs is kind of cool and might work, but to Dolaiim's point, it might encourage the growth of cookie cutter builds/guides in order to ensure that you don't screw up (and therefore effectively "kill") your HC character.
I cant see the problem with respec. People shouldnt be penalized because they missclicked or for making bad skill choices at the beggining of the game. If players cant respec they will just start to save their points intead of spending them at the early levels and thats lame. If you have a little OCD like you know whats the feeling for spending points in a bad skill.
The only thing I don't like is people being abble to respec many times in a row. IMO respec must be granted as a quest reward or something (a long quest btw).
Further proof we need respeccs before the game gets flooded with minmaxers who think they're some hot shit because they know the phrase "you suck, please uninstall" and have too much time on their hands.
There are no problems with respeccs except psychological patologies some people have in their heads, for which I do not feel compelled to be held responsible for.
IMO respec must be granted as a quest reward or something (a long quest btw).
I think having long endgame quests that rewarded respecs would ultimately equate to 'wholesale respeccing'. I do like the idea of having a quest that rewards a single respec; essentially allowing each character 3 total respecs (N, NM, H).
I imagine respecing will work something like: Spend x amount of gold to change 1 skill to another skill, depending on how many points you have dumped into it, it will cost more. So if you have 1 point in arcane missile it may cost 500 gold to take that 1 point and put it elsewhere. But if you had 15 points in it, it might cost 100000 gold, some high lvl gems and a lot of mysticy crafting material. By the end it might be more viable to reroll.
Between release and about 1.10 I made nothing but PVP sorcs and I took it very seriously. I made just about every build under the sun and tweaked skill/stat/gear combinations until I thought that they could not be improved. HOWEVER, with all of the countless pvp sorcs that I made I would not dare to call any of them "perfection" or a perfect build.
There is no such thing as a perfect build. If there was then the game would be imbalanced and would be patched.
For eg: Back in 1.09 when ITHs hit the scene, PVP barbs were all the craze and people would spend a fortune getting a "perfect" barb. But if your perfectly geared and built barb could not catch my FCR sorc to even git a single hit in then is he actually "perfect"?
I played around a lot with FB PVP sorcs in 1.09 and let me tell you, there is not a PERFECT way to build them. There are various different styles of using the character which are perfectly viable. Eg: you could go for an in-your-face type of FB sorc with max-block, DR gear and a focus on life. Or, you could play a FB sorc in a more strategic way and snipe people from a distance, in which case you would go for a FCR build with a focus on mana and regen.
So my question to you is what do you actually think that "Perfection" is in diablo? From my experience with PVP builds in D2 it is a whole lot more than just your skills and stats. It is how you actually use your character in a strategic way whilst taking into account the strengths and limitations of the build. People who truly understood this were very rare. Most people were just like *herp derp, I now have an ITH blade! ill just go and chase sorcs around because I have the best sword in the game.... Oh crap I died. But but, my gear and my build is perfect?!?!*
So, re-specing may see more casual players with the correct skills for a solid build, but does that mean you will see more "Perfection"? No
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For the record though, I did have a unique/odd build planned for him. I was unable to acquire all of the charms that I needed for it however and I eventually lost interest in LOD entirely.
That said, I really appreciate everyone's take on respeccing. I'm praying that some of you are right in your assumption that D3 will give us a surplus of viable builds. Having 3-5 viable builds per class would be an amazing feet IMO.
Wholesale respeccing still scares me though. Here's to hoping Bashiok isn't exaggerating when he says it will be easier to reroll then to respec.
Not trying to compare COD to CS or anything... but IMO, yes there's fairly large gap between a good competition player and your average pub bunny allstar.
They are going to have far more than that my friend there was barely 3 viable builds per class in diablo 2 right?
yeah, get prepared to have your mind blown in this aspect.
Most exciting part about DII for me was thinking up/finding new builds I wanted to try and making new characters. Life (or in this case, fun in a silly video game) is a journey, not a destination.
That being said, I think the respec should be in the game for whomever wants to use it. I probably will at some point while I'm still figuring out how skills work... or maybe not, but there's no real reason it shouldn't be in the game.
I tend to be the type of gamer that has very few actual characters, and likes to continually perfect my main. One rebuttal to a limit on skill replacement is this: Continual patching, as well as new content (DLC or dynamic end-game, etc) may very well change the needs of my characters. I don't want to have to grind a new character to max level and gear him up because, in my pursuit of perfection, I've "run out" of skill replacements on my main.
Also, I want to replace PvE specific skills with PvP skills once I reach max level and decide to have a go at PvP.
On a more general note, I disagree completely with the OP. As I said in my previous paragraph, I don't like discarding characters. Skill replacement allows the chance to experiment and explore with skills, builds and rune/trait/item combinations far more extensively than just being stuck with your original skills forever. Why? Because you're not afraid of "breaking" a character you've put tons of hours into. But you take it seriously because it will cost you gold which = time. This fact will contribute to more variation in end-game builds and characters. It will stave off the "cookie cutter" build BS that really makes a game stale quickly.
Skill replacement will also likely be a big gold-sink, which is very important to maintaining a healthy economy. Gold sinks prevent inflation, which will keep it painful to replace skills. It's a feedback mechanism.
Skill replacement will also prevent skill point hoarding, something that Blizzard has stated is a goal of their design, and I agree with on principle.
Finally, once I read the bit about how the OP obviously abused the botting/powerleveling of D2, and formed all his opinions around the presumption that that's how leveling will work in D3, his credibility went plop in the terlet.
Edit:
I'm gonna add a commentary here. I'm surprised that people think skill replacement will cause cookie-cutter builds. It's actually quite the contrary. Why? Most people become reliant on build guides because they're afraid of messing up their character, not because they want to be super-OP. But once the idea sets in that "I can't design the best character on my own," THEN people will depend on copycatting, because they don't believe there's any variation left.
If players are encouraged to experiment, they will feel empowered, and will keep seeking the holy grail build. A sense of personal ownership of not only avatar, but knowledge and expertise, will push gamers to rely on their own ingenuity. This is SO positive for the game.
I for one hope that not a single guide comes out for any class, ever. That the core community in Diablo 3 all share their knowledge, but always push each other to experiment. If no one thought they could do it better, nothing would ever get better.
That's my cool story, bro. Hope you love it. It loves you.
-Thomas Jefferson
but if you wanted to completely redo your character? RESPEC that should cost copious amounts of gold, or something
or perhaps do a certain difficult quest
That's actually a very good midway point. I think that would be an excellent idea. Hardcore is meant to be hard, anyway.
I can actually get behind this. If you make a hardcore character, you're saying: If I screw up, this character is ruined. That should also apply to skill/trait allocation. If you mess up your character, you have to re-roll.
I still vehemently defend the idea of skill replacement though, in non-hardcore games. It's not right to continually punish a player in the present for mistakes made in the past, even though they've learned from them, by preventing skill replacement.
Again, I argue this will make most players too afraid to experiment with builds, and thus create a dumbed-down, guide-reliant gaming atmosphere that I sure as hell could do without.
-Thomas Jefferson
Rune replacement isn't in the same category. Runes are freely movable with some sort of unknown restrictions.
But...I too think the idea of no hardcore respecs is kind of cool and might work, but to Dolaiim's point, it might encourage the growth of cookie cutter builds/guides in order to ensure that you don't screw up (and therefore effectively "kill") your HC character.
The only thing I don't like is people being abble to respec many times in a row. IMO respec must be granted as a quest reward or something (a long quest btw).
Further proof we need respeccs before the game gets flooded with minmaxers who think they're some hot shit because they know the phrase "you suck, please uninstall" and have too much time on their hands.
There are no problems with respeccs except psychological patologies some people have in their heads, for which I do not feel compelled to be held responsible for.
I also like the idea of no respecs for hardcore.
There is no such thing as a perfect build. If there was then the game would be imbalanced and would be patched.
For eg: Back in 1.09 when ITHs hit the scene, PVP barbs were all the craze and people would spend a fortune getting a "perfect" barb. But if your perfectly geared and built barb could not catch my FCR sorc to even git a single hit in then is he actually "perfect"?
I played around a lot with FB PVP sorcs in 1.09 and let me tell you, there is not a PERFECT way to build them. There are various different styles of using the character which are perfectly viable. Eg: you could go for an in-your-face type of FB sorc with max-block, DR gear and a focus on life. Or, you could play a FB sorc in a more strategic way and snipe people from a distance, in which case you would go for a FCR build with a focus on mana and regen.
So my question to you is what do you actually think that "Perfection" is in diablo? From my experience with PVP builds in D2 it is a whole lot more than just your skills and stats. It is how you actually use your character in a strategic way whilst taking into account the strengths and limitations of the build. People who truly understood this were very rare. Most people were just like *herp derp, I now have an ITH blade! ill just go and chase sorcs around because I have the best sword in the game.... Oh crap I died. But but, my gear and my build is perfect?!?!*
So, re-specing may see more casual players with the correct skills for a solid build, but does that mean you will see more "Perfection"? No