Death threats are a reason to be concerned about when adding sci-fi to a high fantasy setting. 3DO is a bad example. I'd have loved to see the Forge town in action, but it was very, very risky for them. And Blizzard DOES, and DOES listen to the fans. If you need proof, just even remotely check how SC2's development has progressed. They're basically asking for feedback themselves. I wouldn't exactly call it a deaf ear.
Death threats are a reason to be concerned about when adding sci-fi to a high fantasy setting.
Death threads are a reason to be concerned about the health of certain individuals.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
I'd have loved to see the Forge town in action, but it was very, very risky for them.
Game development is a risky business anyway. If you don't ever take any risk you'll end up with bland games that look alike.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
And Blizzard DOES, and DOES listen to the fans. If you need proof, just even remotely check how SC2's development has progressed.
I do not believe so. I think they listen to people. Who the heck are fans? People with no brains, for the most part. Again, listen, not obey. There is a difference between listening to an idea, plugging it in, seeing it doesn't work, and dropping it; and between obeying to an idea and putting it in even if the whole development team knows it won't work.
And there is a difference between obeying to fans "delete the medivac" or continuing with the idea and eventually showing everybody that the medivac is awesome and people should just shut up with their petty suggestions that they know how to balance a game better than Blizzard does.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
They're basically asking for feedback themselves. I wouldn't exactly call it a deaf ear.
Feedback. Not bitching. Not whining. Not petitions. Feedback.
Okay, make up your mind first. You said that they don't listen, now you say that they do listen. And seriously, nobody OBEYS their fans.
HoMM was and still is unique. None of the episodes of it are neither bland nor look alike. It continued a (well-paying) tradition of having only high-fantasy in it while it's forefather had a sci-fi foundation as well. Trying to incorporate it in such a late stage in the series' developement would have a huge impact on the playerbase. They last-minute cancelled their Forge town, wrote a new story and made a new town in like less than 2-3 months before release and it didn't totally flop. They actually came down a golden middle road. But now the real problem was the long-term impact. They decided to renovate the whole HoMM series and things didn't look bad. Jon Van Caneghem's wife said "what have you done to my game?" to him when they were developing HoMM 4. Innovating was overboard and the game flopped financially. They didn't listen to their fans and they still flopped with it because they changed TOO much for their fanbase's liking. Back then internet was more scarce and so were games. You can probably see the point by now.
Feedback includes bitching, whining and petitions. It's the reaction you get from people after you've announced something, that is the actual concept of feedback, to get opinions. Bitching, whining and petitions are the most extreme forms of feedback, showing a large dislike against the object that was shown. If your idea of feedback is synonymous with only positive criticism then.. well, too bad.
Okay, Equinox, you got me. You're right. Blizzard doesn't care. That's why they have professional Starcraft 1 gamers testing the game and ask feedback about new units they add to the game from the community. Just to stroke our egos and make us feel like we've contributed. Oh, about the changes: Are you blind? First one looks shiny and plastic. The second one has the perfect Terran feel.
And it's not just that. The siege tank got a lot of grief and was changed. The terran marines lost their bayonnets. The proportions of the units changed because a lot of people complained about them. I'm not saying that Blizzard bends to every comment and criticism, but I have seen the influence of the community in dozens of little ways everywhere.
But you, no! If somebody came out today and said: "I'd like to see a pink penguin, like the one in the teaser for D3" and Blizzard came out the next day with a screenshot of a pink penguin devouring an ultralisk, I'm sure you'd still say that it was their plan all along. Get over yourself. If you haven't been following the developments, don't knock on those who have. They might, just might, know a little bit more about it than you.
Okay, make up your mind first. You said that they don't listen, now you say that they do listen.
You have a problem with subtlety, don't you?
I said that Blizzard did not listen to people when it came to graphics because they modified the graphics in the manner that all sorts of companies modify graphics over time from the day of announcement.
I also said that just because fan whining and Blizzard decision came together it doesn't mean that Blizzard obeyed the fans or directly listened to them.
I also said that Blizzard, when it does listen (it's not that often, trust me), listens to people as well as fans. Fans are a group of people who mostly do not need a sequel. I met plenty of those on the SC side, and being somewhat of a low-level fan of SC myself, I've been disgusted by them.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Jon Van Caneghem's wife said "what have you done to my game?" to him when they were developing HoMM 4. Innovating was overboard and the game flopped financially.
That innnovation came from fans. Fans said they want heroes on the battlefield. Fans said they want creatures to walk alone. Fans said this, and fans said that, and then fans saw what they created and went "aaaaahhhh noooooooooooo" but it was too late.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
They didn't listen to their fans and they still flopped with it because they changed TOO much for their fanbase's liking.
They did listen to the fans. That was their mistake. Fans are stupid. They don't know what they want, they do not think their ideas through. Sometimes people come to the sc-source website and give suggestions for SC2, and after a few replies it becomes apparent that they just "came up with an idea" and threw it out there without thinking how would it affect every part of the game.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Feedback includes bitching, whining and petitions.
Whinging, bitching comes from people who lack intelligence, patience, and respect. Such individuals, I believe, should not be listened to.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
It's the reaction you get from people after you've announced something
So what?
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Bitching, whining and petitions are the most extreme forms of feedback, showing a large dislike against the object that was shown.
No, that's criticism coming from idiots which means a lot of people have no idea what's going on.
I only accept one form of feedback. Constructive criticism. Any other form means it's fanboys speaking.
You're right, it is a bit aggressive. I guess sometimes you get caught up in writing the thing and then you realize that being a bit angry about the whole thing sort of seeps in. I really can't do much better than give a quote from a Blizzard official. But then you get grief about that too: "Sure, that's what they would say, but that's not what they MEAN.":confused:
Aggressive? It smells of bad parenting. They disrespect the company, they make fun of the guy who spoke for the gameplay trailer, they make nasty comparisons, they think the company owes them something.
If the old company that released my fav game suddenly announced the sequel to it... I'd be very, very quiet...
Whinging, bitching comes from people who lack intelligence, patience, and respect. Such individuals, I believe, should not be listened to.
So what?
No, that's criticism coming from idiots which means a lot of people have no idea what's going on.
I only accept one form of feedback. Constructive criticism. Any other form means it's fanboys speaking.
You do realize you're just bitching right now, don't you? We didn't say that Blizzard scours the forums and reads every bit of what people say and throw it in the game. Do you know how many builds of the game they've tried? They put something in, test it, if it works they leave it in and keep on testing, adding and removing stuff. They try and try and try. And if they see something interesting coming from the fans and they think it's worth it they will try it out. What do we have to lose?
And one more thing: When you're working on something, you're very close to it. You can't see everything, which is why you want feedback from people around you. And maybe most of the time it'll be stuff you've already thought of, and you'll be nodding your head and thinking "get on with it" and suddenly you'll see something and step up and say: Huh! That tank does look like a cartoon elephant! You guys, you think we can do anything better than this?
Thanks for clearing up the confusion. You weren't clear enough the first time.
About the HoMM issue, some of the gameplay elements they introduced were a great success, such as independent heroes, thought not without issues. The game's main flop-causer was the fact that it didn't receive enough polish. It had bugs and imbalances, something which the Equilibris (a mod team) is working on and is doing fine. If you think they listened to or obeyed the fans/people then you're mistaken.
" Whinging, bitching comes from people who lack intelligence, patience, and respect. Such individuals, I believe, should not be listened to."
No shit sherlock. Do you think they'll listen to whiners and bitchers? No way, right? If the magnitude of the negative attitude towards something is large enough... well, the Siege Tank is a prime example. Firstly it generated a lot of fuss and whining. After the initial huff of emotions faded away, in came more rational explanations. It's all part of feedback, it's just a matter of seperating the shit from the chocolate. Even whining can make a point. And there is a really thin line between whining and constructive criticism in today's internet culture.
And way to call yourself stupid and not knowing what you want.
Fan of StarCraft: Broodwar, Single Player Diablo I (and Hellfire), and Nox's PvP.
The fanbase is something the devs are forced to reckon with. If you shrug them off and say that "hey you're stupid, we're not listening to you and we're doing the game anyway and you better buy it!" you won't make good games. Everybody likes to have their say in something.
EDIT:
"If the old company that released my fav game suddenly announced the sequel to it... I'd be very, very quiet..."
Even if it's total, utter shit? Like that's ever gonna happen..
Aggressive? It smells of bad parenting. They disrespect the company, they make fun of the guy who spoke for the gameplay trailer, they make nasty comparisons, they think the company owes them something.
If the old company that released my fav game suddenly announced the sequel to it... I'd be very, very quiet...
When did I disrespect the company? I've loved Starcraft for 10 years and I've loved SC2 from the day it was announced. I offered up my CONSTRUCTIVE criticism along with everyone else on other boards. I didn't make fun of anybody. I spoke about what I liked and didn't like and have been behind the devs since day one. I don't think the company owes me anything other than a good game, worthy of the name Starcraft. 'Cause it's going to be my $60 that go in their pockets when I buy the game.
They decided to renovate the whole HoMM series and things didn't look bad. Jon Van Caneghem's wife said "what have you done to my game?" to him when they were developing HoMM 4. Innovating was overboard and the game flopped financially.
How was HoMM4 an innovation? Compared to HMM3, they went from 9 types of towns to 5 or 6, cut the number of creatures in half and changed the near-photographic quality graphics to cartoons. Oh and HMM3 with the HMM 3.5 fan-made mod beats the hell out of HMM4 in the terms of content.
H4 didn't appeal to the crowds because it differed from the original format a lot.
People weren't used to the new mechanics. And thus the 3rd iteration of the series along with WoG remains the most popular, though I'd say H5 is catching up.
When did I say that you in particular disrespected the company?
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
About the HoMM issue, some of the gameplay elements they introduced were a great success, such as independent heroes, thought not without issues. The game's main flop-causer was the fact that it didn't receive enough polish. It had bugs and imbalances, something which the Equilibris (a mod team) is working on and is doing fine. If you think they listened to or obeyed the fans/people then you're mistaken.
HoMM IV wasn't even bad, in my opinion. I actually enjoyed it. But, it wasn't a sequel. It was TOO different TOO fast. HoMM V did a better job there.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
No shit sherlock. Do you think they'll listen to whiners and bitchers? No way, right? If the magnitude of the negative attitude towards something is large enough... well, the Siege Tank is a prime example. Firstly it generated a lot of fuss and whining. After the initial huff of emotions faded away, in came more rational explanations. It's all part of feedback, it's just a matter of seperating the shit from the chocolate. Even whining can make a point. And there is a really thin line between whining and constructive criticism in today's internet culture.
Whining can make a point, but if there is a point to be made, there will also be non-whiners who would be against a certain feature. I myself was against the siege tank. But did I whine? Did I say that "Blizzard ruined SC now because of the siege tank" or "Omg no i am a true fan blizzard what are you doing motherfuckers ruining my game"? Hell no. All I said is that I think the new siege tank looks kinda stupid, and I hope they will change it, and if they don't, well, oh well.
In fact, I still don't like the siege tank but I also look forward to SCII and I can easily overlook that small fact.
Trust me, if there was a big wave of people saying "we don't like the siege tank" it would work just as great as a wave of people saying "blizzard sucks". And I would feel better for my fellow gamers.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
The fanbase is something the devs are forced to reckon with. If you shrug them off and say that "hey you're stupid, we're not listening to you and we're doing the game anyway and you better buy it!" you won't make good games. Everybody likes to have their say in something.
Last time I checked, true fans are quiet. They make mods, they revive their games, they discuss them, they play them. Loud fans are often people who would jump out of the window after playing 12 hours on an XBOX as one guy did. These people are not even sane. You have to be very careful listening to a person who would kill themselves for a game.
Also, I don't think I said anything about Blizzard shruggin off fans. Read my posts more carefully.
A fanbase is a block of people who like a game. If they like that game they can play that game and build on top of that game for all eternety with or without blizzard.
A fanbase does not pay the game sales. It's just way too small for that. It's powerful (if it's a good fanbase), but it's small. It can be listened to, but it should not be followed after. If most people think DIII in colors > DII in gothic is better, but fans disagree, Blizzard is better of deciding independently.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Even if it's total, utter shit? Like that's ever gonna happen..
I won't be able to know if it's shit or not until I play it. I will not expect anything particular since there has been a huge gap and all developers of that game are either dead or dispersed in other companies. But a sequel is something we fans simply cannot do, being as small and limited as we are. If the new company screws the sequel up, they did the best they could. We take their engine and toy with it once more.
I'd even accept if a different company made the sequel. Nival did a great job with Heroes V. But you can't judge a game by so little information.
If you would be so involved in HoMM V as I am then you wouldn't think that about it. I'll not descend into detail.
But now, if the game you've really wanted to play, the awesome sequel, is shit, do you just go for a walk outside in a ho-hum way?
Isn't discussing loud? You're making yourself heard. Seems loud to me. Jumping out of a window on the other hand.. too loud and as you said, insane. You're taking fan stereotypes a bit far here.
"Also, I don't think I said anything about Blizzard shruggin off fans. Read my posts more carefully."
What does not listening equal to then? Oh wait you said the do listen. Or wait.. you said they listen to people? How about fans then? Shit, this is getting complicated.
I would say a fan equals something like 10 buyers or more (for example). Because they're your top 1 source to get feedback from. They'd be your model of general taste. If you want to appeal to the crowd you gotta do so for the fans.
If you would be so involved in HoMM V as I am then you wouldn't think that about H5. I'll not descend into detail.
If you don't descend into detail, don't bother mentioning, because you are basically simply disagreeing with me without explaining why, which is kinda pointless.
I played HV, and still play it, and I think what I think, and no amount of playing it would change my opinion. I've been with it from the beginning on those Russian forums, I even played the alpha.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
But now, if the game you've really wanted to play, the awesome sequel, is shit, do you just go for a walk outside in a ho-hum way?
If the game was released and it was rubbish I'd say "it's rubbish". I'd advise most of my fellow fans against buying it before dling it, and try to make sure that as less former fans as possible would pay for this game before knowing what it is like. I just don't like people wasting their money, but I can't be certain that nobody would like it or that it's 100% bad just because I don't like it.
Would I scream at the company? I have no such right. I don't own the IP, my screaming would not affect it. I'd say I don't like it and why on the official forum. They may or may not take heed. I will not whine. Whining is for those who have no respect. If a company made a game I don't like it doesn't mean they intended so. In fact, for a company to revive my fav game would be fairly noble since that title is nowhere near popular enough.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Isn't discussing loud? You're making yourself heard. Seems loud to me.
Loud? If all in the world was opinion it would be loud. But compared to whining and disrespect it's too polite to be "loud".
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Jumping out of a window on the other hand.. too loud and as you said, insane. You're taking fan stereotypes a bit far here.
I'm judging by this forum. I don't really have a statistic on DII fans.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
What does not listening equal to then?
It means Blizzard knows what it's doing and it is not lost and searching for fans to tell them what to od.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Oh wait you said the do listen. Or wait.. you said they listen to people? How about fans then? Shit, this is getting complicated.
They should do their thing, and analyze the opinions of all potential buyers to balance the making of a masterpiece vs making a game that would sell (somewhat exclusionary parameters).
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
I would say a fan equals something like 10 buyers or more (for example).
How the hell? They bought once. In fact, at the moment, DII fans are giving DIII a bad name on the market. Very useful, really...
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
Because they're your top 1 source to get feedback from.
Again, how the hell? If I let that company make a sequel, I'd want to see some new things, and I would want to know what would other people who never played this game would want to see in a fantasy FPS... why would they listen only to fans? Fans like the original too much. You need to check on fans for how the game was and on the new people to see how the game would be.
Quote from "Oakwarrior" »
They'd be your model of general taste. If you want to appeal to the crowd you gotta do so for the fans.
The crowd is not fans. The general taste is not fans. Most people do not want PK, most fans do. How's it anywhere near general taste. Most DII fans think DII is fun, everyone else thinks it's a grind. A person who played DII for 8 years has too much love for DII to be a model buyer.
When did I say that you in particular disrespected the company?
Quote from "Equinox" »
Aggressive? It smells of bad parenting.They disrespect the company, they make fun of the guy who spoke for the gameplay trailer, they make nasty comparisons, they think the company owes them something.
There.
You really do have to make up your mind though, as Oakwarrior keeps saying. Do they listen to fans? Do they listen to people? (I'm pretty sure that fans are people too)
Now, why would we want to be quiet? We came to the Diablo (or Starcraft) forums to talk about a game we're excited about. But what are we going to talk about if not what we like and don't like about it. Isn't this why we're here?
I'm kind of surprised to see you here since you're not a fan of Diablo II. (this is not a put-down in any shape of form, just honest puzzlement)
"A person who played DII for 8 years has too much love for DII to be a model buyer."
How can you say that with so little information about the gameplay of D3? Pff..
"How the hell? They bought once. In fact, at the moment, DII fans are giving DIII a bad name on the market. Very useful, really..."
Fans don't only reside in the internet, they have real lives too, they talk to their gaming buddies, they have influence. The only thing that Diablo's fans are doing so far is hyping the game up. It's getting a lot more coverage. Right now there'd be a news blackout on D3. By all means it's doing everything else than giving it a bad name.
"If the game was released and it was rubbish I'd say "it's rubbish". I'd advise most of my fellow fans against buying it before dling it, and try to make sure that as less former fans as possible would pay for this game before knowing what it is like. I just don't like people wasting their money, but I can't be certain that nobody would like it or that it's 100% bad just because I don't like it."
So you think resistance is futile. Oh well, I guess that's everyone's own. Just sit behind the screen, procrastinating, doing nothing to save a game from a gruesome demise... That's best for everyone.
Is your favourite game NoX? It's one of mine as well by the way.
"I'm judging by this forum. I don't really have a statistic on DII fans."
Well you've done a good job stereotyping fans so far nonetheless.
"Again, how the hell? If I let that company make a sequel, I'd want to see some new things, and I would want to know what would other people who never played this game would want to see in a fantasy FPS... why would they listen only to fans?"
Indeed why listen only to fans? I wouldn't do so... I would just regard them as a very good source of feedback, number one, actually. You do realize there are other numbers after 1 as well, I hope.
And your posts are getting more incoherent after each. You're beginning to contradict your points in some places.
Nick, he's a fan (stupid and doesn't know what he wants as he said) of Diablo, that's enough to justify his being here
EDIT: Also, I wonder why I haven't seen you around the H5 community, even the alpha. Do you go by the same nickname?
Again, look at what I posted on page 3 and look at the star-craft screens posted by Dvirus55 on page 5.
What I'm saying is blizzards first preview is never as good as the final product, regardless of a petition. The original art petition was full of hatred, flame and hyperbole. That is not needed for blizzard to make the final product better than the preview, it's just common knowledge that the preview always fails in comparison to the final product. Stop looking at the alpha-stage demo as the final product that will be released if you don't start an angry petition. I'm all for fan-input, but the hyperbole and hatred spread through that petition is just ridiculous. How can one endorse such a childish petition and wear it on their sig is beyond me.
Plus you only saw one stage, every stage in the game won't be like the one we saw. So don't make a petition assuming that every stage will automatically look and feel identical to the ones seen in an alpha-stage demo.
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Game development is a risky business anyway. If you don't ever take any risk you'll end up with bland games that look alike.
I do not believe so. I think they listen to people. Who the heck are fans? People with no brains, for the most part. Again, listen, not obey. There is a difference between listening to an idea, plugging it in, seeing it doesn't work, and dropping it; and between obeying to an idea and putting it in even if the whole development team knows it won't work.
And there is a difference between obeying to fans "delete the medivac" or continuing with the idea and eventually showing everybody that the medivac is awesome and people should just shut up with their petty suggestions that they know how to balance a game better than Blizzard does.
Feedback. Not bitching. Not whining. Not petitions. Feedback.
HoMM was and still is unique. None of the episodes of it are neither bland nor look alike. It continued a (well-paying) tradition of having only high-fantasy in it while it's forefather had a sci-fi foundation as well. Trying to incorporate it in such a late stage in the series' developement would have a huge impact on the playerbase. They last-minute cancelled their Forge town, wrote a new story and made a new town in like less than 2-3 months before release and it didn't totally flop. They actually came down a golden middle road. But now the real problem was the long-term impact. They decided to renovate the whole HoMM series and things didn't look bad. Jon Van Caneghem's wife said "what have you done to my game?" to him when they were developing HoMM 4. Innovating was overboard and the game flopped financially. They didn't listen to their fans and they still flopped with it because they changed TOO much for their fanbase's liking. Back then internet was more scarce and so were games. You can probably see the point by now.
Feedback includes bitching, whining and petitions. It's the reaction you get from people after you've announced something, that is the actual concept of feedback, to get opinions. Bitching, whining and petitions are the most extreme forms of feedback, showing a large dislike against the object that was shown. If your idea of feedback is synonymous with only positive criticism then.. well, too bad.
And it's not just that. The siege tank got a lot of grief and was changed. The terran marines lost their bayonnets. The proportions of the units changed because a lot of people complained about them. I'm not saying that Blizzard bends to every comment and criticism, but I have seen the influence of the community in dozens of little ways everywhere.
But you, no! If somebody came out today and said: "I'd like to see a pink penguin, like the one in the teaser for D3" and Blizzard came out the next day with a screenshot of a pink penguin devouring an ultralisk, I'm sure you'd still say that it was their plan all along. Get over yourself. If you haven't been following the developments, don't knock on those who have. They might, just might, know a little bit more about it than you.
I said that Blizzard did not listen to people when it came to graphics because they modified the graphics in the manner that all sorts of companies modify graphics over time from the day of announcement.
I also said that just because fan whining and Blizzard decision came together it doesn't mean that Blizzard obeyed the fans or directly listened to them.
I also said that Blizzard, when it does listen (it's not that often, trust me), listens to people as well as fans. Fans are a group of people who mostly do not need a sequel. I met plenty of those on the SC side, and being somewhat of a low-level fan of SC myself, I've been disgusted by them.
That innnovation came from fans. Fans said they want heroes on the battlefield. Fans said they want creatures to walk alone. Fans said this, and fans said that, and then fans saw what they created and went "aaaaahhhh noooooooooooo" but it was too late.
They did listen to the fans. That was their mistake. Fans are stupid. They don't know what they want, they do not think their ideas through. Sometimes people come to the sc-source website and give suggestions for SC2, and after a few replies it becomes apparent that they just "came up with an idea" and threw it out there without thinking how would it affect every part of the game.
Whinging, bitching comes from people who lack intelligence, patience, and respect. Such individuals, I believe, should not be listened to.
So what?
No, that's criticism coming from idiots which means a lot of people have no idea what's going on.
I only accept one form of feedback. Constructive criticism. Any other form means it's fanboys speaking.
If the old company that released my fav game suddenly announced the sequel to it... I'd be very, very quiet...
You do realize you're just bitching right now, don't you? We didn't say that Blizzard scours the forums and reads every bit of what people say and throw it in the game. Do you know how many builds of the game they've tried? They put something in, test it, if it works they leave it in and keep on testing, adding and removing stuff. They try and try and try. And if they see something interesting coming from the fans and they think it's worth it they will try it out. What do we have to lose?
And one more thing: When you're working on something, you're very close to it. You can't see everything, which is why you want feedback from people around you. And maybe most of the time it'll be stuff you've already thought of, and you'll be nodding your head and thinking "get on with it" and suddenly you'll see something and step up and say: Huh! That tank does look like a cartoon elephant! You guys, you think we can do anything better than this?
About the HoMM issue, some of the gameplay elements they introduced were a great success, such as independent heroes, thought not without issues. The game's main flop-causer was the fact that it didn't receive enough polish. It had bugs and imbalances, something which the Equilibris (a mod team) is working on and is doing fine. If you think they listened to or obeyed the fans/people then you're mistaken.
" Whinging, bitching comes from people who lack intelligence, patience, and respect. Such individuals, I believe, should not be listened to."
No shit sherlock. Do you think they'll listen to whiners and bitchers? No way, right? If the magnitude of the negative attitude towards something is large enough... well, the Siege Tank is a prime example. Firstly it generated a lot of fuss and whining. After the initial huff of emotions faded away, in came more rational explanations. It's all part of feedback, it's just a matter of seperating the shit from the chocolate. Even whining can make a point. And there is a really thin line between whining and constructive criticism in today's internet culture.
And way to call yourself stupid and not knowing what you want.
The fanbase is something the devs are forced to reckon with. If you shrug them off and say that "hey you're stupid, we're not listening to you and we're doing the game anyway and you better buy it!" you won't make good games. Everybody likes to have their say in something.
EDIT:
"If the old company that released my fav game suddenly announced the sequel to it... I'd be very, very quiet..."
Even if it's total, utter shit? Like that's ever gonna happen..
When did I disrespect the company? I've loved Starcraft for 10 years and I've loved SC2 from the day it was announced. I offered up my CONSTRUCTIVE criticism along with everyone else on other boards. I didn't make fun of anybody. I spoke about what I liked and didn't like and have been behind the devs since day one. I don't think the company owes me anything other than a good game, worthy of the name Starcraft. 'Cause it's going to be my $60 that go in their pockets when I buy the game.
How was HoMM4 an innovation? Compared to HMM3, they went from 9 types of towns to 5 or 6, cut the number of creatures in half and changed the near-photographic quality graphics to cartoons. Oh and HMM3 with the HMM 3.5 fan-made mod beats the hell out of HMM4 in the terms of content.
People weren't used to the new mechanics. And thus the 3rd iteration of the series along with WoG remains the most popular, though I'd say H5 is catching up.
HoMM IV wasn't even bad, in my opinion. I actually enjoyed it. But, it wasn't a sequel. It was TOO different TOO fast. HoMM V did a better job there.
Whining can make a point, but if there is a point to be made, there will also be non-whiners who would be against a certain feature. I myself was against the siege tank. But did I whine? Did I say that "Blizzard ruined SC now because of the siege tank" or "Omg no i am a true fan blizzard what are you doing motherfuckers ruining my game"? Hell no. All I said is that I think the new siege tank looks kinda stupid, and I hope they will change it, and if they don't, well, oh well.
In fact, I still don't like the siege tank but I also look forward to SCII and I can easily overlook that small fact.
Trust me, if there was a big wave of people saying "we don't like the siege tank" it would work just as great as a wave of people saying "blizzard sucks". And I would feel better for my fellow gamers.
Last time I checked, true fans are quiet. They make mods, they revive their games, they discuss them, they play them. Loud fans are often people who would jump out of the window after playing 12 hours on an XBOX as one guy did. These people are not even sane. You have to be very careful listening to a person who would kill themselves for a game.
Also, I don't think I said anything about Blizzard shruggin off fans. Read my posts more carefully.
A fanbase is a block of people who like a game. If they like that game they can play that game and build on top of that game for all eternety with or without blizzard.
A fanbase does not pay the game sales. It's just way too small for that. It's powerful (if it's a good fanbase), but it's small. It can be listened to, but it should not be followed after. If most people think DIII in colors > DII in gothic is better, but fans disagree, Blizzard is better of deciding independently.
I won't be able to know if it's shit or not until I play it. I will not expect anything particular since there has been a huge gap and all developers of that game are either dead or dispersed in other companies. But a sequel is something we fans simply cannot do, being as small and limited as we are. If the new company screws the sequel up, they did the best they could. We take their engine and toy with it once more.
I'd even accept if a different company made the sequel. Nival did a great job with Heroes V. But you can't judge a game by so little information.
But now, if the game you've really wanted to play, the awesome sequel, is shit, do you just go for a walk outside in a ho-hum way?
Isn't discussing loud? You're making yourself heard. Seems loud to me. Jumping out of a window on the other hand.. too loud and as you said, insane. You're taking fan stereotypes a bit far here.
"Also, I don't think I said anything about Blizzard shruggin off fans. Read my posts more carefully."
What does not listening equal to then? Oh wait you said the do listen. Or wait.. you said they listen to people? How about fans then? Shit, this is getting complicated.
I would say a fan equals something like 10 buyers or more (for example). Because they're your top 1 source to get feedback from. They'd be your model of general taste. If you want to appeal to the crowd you gotta do so for the fans.
I played HV, and still play it, and I think what I think, and no amount of playing it would change my opinion. I've been with it from the beginning on those Russian forums, I even played the alpha.
If the game was released and it was rubbish I'd say "it's rubbish". I'd advise most of my fellow fans against buying it before dling it, and try to make sure that as less former fans as possible would pay for this game before knowing what it is like. I just don't like people wasting their money, but I can't be certain that nobody would like it or that it's 100% bad just because I don't like it.
Would I scream at the company? I have no such right. I don't own the IP, my screaming would not affect it. I'd say I don't like it and why on the official forum. They may or may not take heed. I will not whine. Whining is for those who have no respect. If a company made a game I don't like it doesn't mean they intended so. In fact, for a company to revive my fav game would be fairly noble since that title is nowhere near popular enough.
Loud? If all in the world was opinion it would be loud. But compared to whining and disrespect it's too polite to be "loud".
I'm judging by this forum. I don't really have a statistic on DII fans.
It means Blizzard knows what it's doing and it is not lost and searching for fans to tell them what to od.
They should do their thing, and analyze the opinions of all potential buyers to balance the making of a masterpiece vs making a game that would sell (somewhat exclusionary parameters).
How the hell? They bought once. In fact, at the moment, DII fans are giving DIII a bad name on the market. Very useful, really...
Again, how the hell? If I let that company make a sequel, I'd want to see some new things, and I would want to know what would other people who never played this game would want to see in a fantasy FPS... why would they listen only to fans? Fans like the original too much. You need to check on fans for how the game was and on the new people to see how the game would be.
The crowd is not fans. The general taste is not fans. Most people do not want PK, most fans do. How's it anywhere near general taste. Most DII fans think DII is fun, everyone else thinks it's a grind. A person who played DII for 8 years has too much love for DII to be a model buyer.
There.
You really do have to make up your mind though, as Oakwarrior keeps saying. Do they listen to fans? Do they listen to people? (I'm pretty sure that fans are people too)
Now, why would we want to be quiet? We came to the Diablo (or Starcraft) forums to talk about a game we're excited about. But what are we going to talk about if not what we like and don't like about it. Isn't this why we're here?
I'm kind of surprised to see you here since you're not a fan of Diablo II. (this is not a put-down in any shape of form, just honest puzzlement)
How can you say that with so little information about the gameplay of D3? Pff..
"How the hell? They bought once. In fact, at the moment, DII fans are giving DIII a bad name on the market. Very useful, really..."
Fans don't only reside in the internet, they have real lives too, they talk to their gaming buddies, they have influence. The only thing that Diablo's fans are doing so far is hyping the game up. It's getting a lot more coverage. Right now there'd be a news blackout on D3. By all means it's doing everything else than giving it a bad name.
"If the game was released and it was rubbish I'd say "it's rubbish". I'd advise most of my fellow fans against buying it before dling it, and try to make sure that as less former fans as possible would pay for this game before knowing what it is like. I just don't like people wasting their money, but I can't be certain that nobody would like it or that it's 100% bad just because I don't like it."
So you think resistance is futile. Oh well, I guess that's everyone's own. Just sit behind the screen, procrastinating, doing nothing to save a game from a gruesome demise... That's best for everyone.
Is your favourite game NoX? It's one of mine as well by the way.
"I'm judging by this forum. I don't really have a statistic on DII fans."
Well you've done a good job stereotyping fans so far nonetheless.
"Again, how the hell? If I let that company make a sequel, I'd want to see some new things, and I would want to know what would other people who never played this game would want to see in a fantasy FPS... why would they listen only to fans?"
Indeed why listen only to fans? I wouldn't do so... I would just regard them as a very good source of feedback, number one, actually. You do realize there are other numbers after 1 as well, I hope.
And your posts are getting more incoherent after each. You're beginning to contradict your points in some places.
Nick, he's a fan (stupid and doesn't know what he wants as he said) of Diablo, that's enough to justify his being here
EDIT: Also, I wonder why I haven't seen you around the H5 community, even the alpha. Do you go by the same nickname?
What I'm saying is blizzards first preview is never as good as the final product, regardless of a petition. The original art petition was full of hatred, flame and hyperbole. That is not needed for blizzard to make the final product better than the preview, it's just common knowledge that the preview always fails in comparison to the final product. Stop looking at the alpha-stage demo as the final product that will be released if you don't start an angry petition. I'm all for fan-input, but the hyperbole and hatred spread through that petition is just ridiculous. How can one endorse such a childish petition and wear it on their sig is beyond me.
Plus you only saw one stage, every stage in the game won't be like the one we saw. So don't make a petition assuming that every stage will automatically look and feel identical to the ones seen in an alpha-stage demo.