Ok, so I had this legacy skull grasp that I was wearing for a long time on my WW barb and never really fully investigated the change on Skull Grasp. After starting a different thread asking how to get up past GR52, I finally found a newer Skull Grasp and actually paid attention to it. Now since the legacy ring and the new one are technically different rings in the game, it allows me to equip both at the same time. I am seeing a rather large boost in damage numbers from WW with them both on. Is there anything else I should be looking at instead of wearing both Skull Grasps? Prior to the dual Skull Grasps, I had Unity on and CoE in the cube. I understand this is a very rare situation as most people probably trashed the legacy ring once the new one hit and this combo wasnt completely tested.
They probably both work - the new one adds multiplicative damage, the old one additive damage. However, almost any other ring you replace the legacy one with (SoJ, CoE, Unity, Compass Rose, Focus/Restraint and put SG in cube...) is better. That's why everyone threw the old one away - it was just "broken" and utterly useless by being additive instead of multiplicative.
There are more interesting examples for combining legacy+new items; one that actually makes sense (as the legacy one isn't plain useless) is The Three Hundredth Spear. And there are probably more. For this one, you can safely throw the old one away. You can test it by equipping no gear except both Skull Grasps and a Mara's Kaleidoscope and then start fighting Ghom on TX. You'll see that as soon as you switch CoE or SoJ in for the legacy SG, your damage will go up.
Well, thanks for the input. I will have to test it out vs Ghom as I do have a couple of SoJs to test it against. My thought on this whole things was what if the game applied the legacy additive damage before it applied the multiplicative damage? I've been running it in GRs and prior to the switch, I was not clearing anything higher than 52. I made a couple of changes as recommended in my other thread and I got to 54. Once I applied both SG rings, I have been steadily climbing and cleared 61 in under 10 minutes. I did however just jump right into using both rings and didnt run only the new ring, so I cant honestly say how much was from having both and how much was just the new ring. I will go back and change it up and see what happens. At this moment I have Unity on in the cube, so I can swap that to Maras and not change any of my damage output, so testing rings is easier.
Ok, so after some testing and whatnot, I discovered something. I swapped out for an SOJ and saw my damage numbers on trash mobs go down while running to Ghom. Initially with both SG rings I saw damage numbers flashing by of 1700M with some high crits of 2100M. When I used the SoJ (which was a junk roll, but the best I had in stash) I was seeing trash mob damage in the 500M range. Ghom himself took approx. the same amount of time to kill with each setup. So yeah, I had 30% extra damage to elites, but the main damage went down to the point that it nullified the increase to elites. My junk SoJ also had STR, VIT, and Fire skills (which I dont use) with no socket, so I rolled the Fire Skills to get the socket. I know having a Physical SoJ with socket would benefit me greatly, but until I find one, this is all I can test with.
So, in theory, for pushing GRs, the dual SG will be slightly better as I can deal with the trash mobs easier.
I also have a great roll on an Ancient Unity to test out while I run CoE in the cube, but I still dont think it will beat out the crazy damage I am seeing from WW with the double rings.
Well of course your damage goes up if you have a Skull Grasp with pretty good stats compared to a crappy useless SoJ. Just imported your profile into D3Planner - currently, your WW has 493m DPS, with your SoJ 396m DPS. The elite damage makes it break even, that's why the time on Ghom was about the same. Those numbers on trash sound very much like anecdotal evidence and the gap of 4 times as much damage is just your owned skewed perception (otherwise Ghom would've died 3 times as fast in the double SG setup despite the SoJ elite damage boost in the other setup).
For proper testing you need comparable rings. More specifically, if you test a "gg rolled Skull Grasp" it's not fair to compare it with a "completely crappy rolled SoJ". Rolling off the fire damage from the SoJ was a grave mistake, sorry to say it like that - but why not keep the fire damage and take the WW fire rune? You *never* roll the elemental damage off an SoJ. The entire point of what makes the SoJ great is exactly the elemental damage (with Stricken and Furnace the elite damage is far less effective than the elemental damage). You can pretty much trash that SoJ... not sure why you didn't just roll off the vitality instead?
Anyways, I can't test it myself since I trashed my legacy SG. But I'd urge you to do a proper testing, and then I'm sure you'll see that other rings are more useful. Also, one more thing: Note that SoJ isn't even an endgame ring currently for, at least to my knowledge, any class/spec. The order is pretty much Endless Walk (Compass Rose+Traveler's Pledge) > CoE > Focus and Restraint > SoJ in terms of offense. Since you can't wear both Endless Walk and F+R, most specs these days use Compass Rose, which allows you to use CoE plus a defensive ring (Unity as a general choice or Band of Might for barbs in particular).
Well, switching WW to fire would have negated my +physical skill from my Reapers Wraps, so that becomes a wash doesnt it? It would have been physical rune with Reapers skill bonus or fire rune with SoJ skill bonus. I didnt see the benefit of keeping the fire on it at that time and if fire was "useless" in my head, vitality actually did have some use, that was my rationalization.
As far as "proper" testing... I cant test things I dont have. Im not trying to invent a new build or anything, Im just trying to maximize what I have. It's obvious that a ring with STR/CHC/CHD should beat a ring with STR/VIT/CHC. The entire point of this thread was my "discovery" that I could wear both SG rings at the same time and was hoping someone would chime in that knew if they both worked well together or not.
I have two other SoJ in my stash... one has Cold Skills and the other has lightning skills I think. I do have a complete set of Endless Walk, but I thought the rolls on them were kind of garbage. I guess Hellfire isnt justified anymore if thats the top choice?
Well, switching WW to fire would have negated my +physical skill from my Reapers Wraps, so that becomes a wash doesnt it?
Keep in mind what that was about: Testing the difference between two setups - double SG or SG+any other ring. What other gear you wear is completely irrelevant. Also, those tests are more reliable when they last longer, so usually I do them without weapon or gimp my DPS otherwise. As I said, you can almost do it naked with only the rings if you equip Mara's since most of Ghom's damage is poison.
I do have a complete set of Endless Walk, but I thought the rolls on them were kind of garbage. I guess Hellfire isnt justified anymore if thats the top choice?
Basically, ALL BARB BUILDS use the same setup: Hellfire Amulet + Focus/Restraint. In cube you have a bit of variance (CoE for damage, Unity/Band of Might for defense) but neither Skull Grasp, nor Stone of Jordan or the Endless Walk set play a role for barbs. However, this thread is about finding out if double Skull Grasp has some value, and all I want to do is point out how you can properly test the "alternatives". Focus+Restraint isn't really an option to test though as it means removing both rings (and it will be the best choice in the end, I'm sure about that). That's why I mention other rings such as CoE, SoJ, and so on.
Hope that clarifies a few things ;-)
I like testing things, especially unusual things, and I like that you defend your theory. It usually take forever to chance established gearing/skill choices and it's so easy to dismiss alternatives. However, it's really important to test properly and not fool yourself. Note that after all testing you feel that your double SG combination is better, then by all means use it! In the end, this game is about fun, and you should use what *you* think it's best. However, I'm not convinced yet by what you wrote here that the legacy SG is *not* broken. :-)
I just wish we could see the "behind the scenes" math the game is applying to the double SG combo. I mean, if it's applying the legacy additive at the end of the equation, it's pretty much worthless. If it's adding prior to the new rings multiplication, then it's worth it's weight in gold. Simple math says if base = 100 and I have +296% from my new ring and +391% from my legacy, then if it adds at the end 100*296=29600+391, I have 29991% If it adds prior to the multiplication, 100+391=491*296 then I have 145336% The issue I could for see with something like D3planner is how do the guys who wrote the site know where in the formula the legacy is added into the mix?
I also saw a really cool placebo effect earlier. I put on Focus and Restraint it felt "ok", then I put on Endless Walk and for some reason it felt awesome... and I know it wasnt doing anything to help damage wise. I understand trying to eliminate all variables and what not and trying to narrow down exact numbers as to what works better, but Im just not that dedicated, lol! I do like the double SG setup, and will probably run it for a while, but Im also going to take a long hard look at F/R as well if I can find some better rolled ones. I think a good portion of what im seeing is losing all the CHD and CHC I have on both of my SG rings. I only have one other ring with those kind of rolls and thats my Ancient Unity.
Hey everybody, just wanted to let you all know this is no longer an option. The last patch locked down my double skull grasp and made it so only one can be worn at a time. I went into a GR to F around a little bit in a lower level and was hitting like a wet noodle and I said WTF is wrong? Nothing really changed skill wise, what did they nerf? So I checked my gear and my legacy ring had a big lock over it. Replaced it with an Ancient Unity I had laying around and proceeded to melt everything in the same level GR I had just run. So yeah, they figured out the double SG was still possible and took it away.
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Ok, so I had this legacy skull grasp that I was wearing for a long time on my WW barb and never really fully investigated the change on Skull Grasp. After starting a different thread asking how to get up past GR52, I finally found a newer Skull Grasp and actually paid attention to it. Now since the legacy ring and the new one are technically different rings in the game, it allows me to equip both at the same time. I am seeing a rather large boost in damage numbers from WW with them both on. Is there anything else I should be looking at instead of wearing both Skull Grasps? Prior to the dual Skull Grasps, I had Unity on and CoE in the cube. I understand this is a very rare situation as most people probably trashed the legacy ring once the new one hit and this combo wasnt completely tested.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Devestator-1333/hero/50143225
funny try some GR with both on and let us know ?
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ModeratorThey probably both work - the new one adds multiplicative damage, the old one additive damage. However, almost any other ring you replace the legacy one with (SoJ, CoE, Unity, Compass Rose, Focus/Restraint and put SG in cube...) is better. That's why everyone threw the old one away - it was just "broken" and utterly useless by being additive instead of multiplicative.
There are more interesting examples for combining legacy+new items; one that actually makes sense (as the legacy one isn't plain useless) is The Three Hundredth Spear. And there are probably more. For this one, you can safely throw the old one away. You can test it by equipping no gear except both Skull Grasps and a Mara's Kaleidoscope and then start fighting Ghom on TX. You'll see that as soon as you switch CoE or SoJ in for the legacy SG, your damage will go up.
Well, thanks for the input. I will have to test it out vs Ghom as I do have a couple of SoJs to test it against. My thought on this whole things was what if the game applied the legacy additive damage before it applied the multiplicative damage? I've been running it in GRs and prior to the switch, I was not clearing anything higher than 52. I made a couple of changes as recommended in my other thread and I got to 54. Once I applied both SG rings, I have been steadily climbing and cleared 61 in under 10 minutes. I did however just jump right into using both rings and didnt run only the new ring, so I cant honestly say how much was from having both and how much was just the new ring. I will go back and change it up and see what happens. At this moment I have Unity on in the cube, so I can swap that to Maras and not change any of my damage output, so testing rings is easier.
Ok, so after some testing and whatnot, I discovered something. I swapped out for an SOJ and saw my damage numbers on trash mobs go down while running to Ghom. Initially with both SG rings I saw damage numbers flashing by of 1700M with some high crits of 2100M. When I used the SoJ (which was a junk roll, but the best I had in stash) I was seeing trash mob damage in the 500M range. Ghom himself took approx. the same amount of time to kill with each setup. So yeah, I had 30% extra damage to elites, but the main damage went down to the point that it nullified the increase to elites. My junk SoJ also had STR, VIT, and Fire skills (which I dont use) with no socket, so I rolled the Fire Skills to get the socket. I know having a Physical SoJ with socket would benefit me greatly, but until I find one, this is all I can test with.
So, in theory, for pushing GRs, the dual SG will be slightly better as I can deal with the trash mobs easier.
I also have a great roll on an Ancient Unity to test out while I run CoE in the cube, but I still dont think it will beat out the crazy damage I am seeing from WW with the double rings.
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ModeratorWell of course your damage goes up if you have a Skull Grasp with pretty good stats compared to a crappy useless SoJ. Just imported your profile into D3Planner - currently, your WW has 493m DPS, with your SoJ 396m DPS. The elite damage makes it break even, that's why the time on Ghom was about the same. Those numbers on trash sound very much like anecdotal evidence and the gap of 4 times as much damage is just your owned skewed perception (otherwise Ghom would've died 3 times as fast in the double SG setup despite the SoJ elite damage boost in the other setup).
For proper testing you need comparable rings. More specifically, if you test a "gg rolled Skull Grasp" it's not fair to compare it with a "completely crappy rolled SoJ". Rolling off the fire damage from the SoJ was a grave mistake, sorry to say it like that - but why not keep the fire damage and take the WW fire rune? You *never* roll the elemental damage off an SoJ. The entire point of what makes the SoJ great is exactly the elemental damage (with Stricken and Furnace the elite damage is far less effective than the elemental damage). You can pretty much trash that SoJ... not sure why you didn't just roll off the vitality instead?
Anyways, I can't test it myself since I trashed my legacy SG. But I'd urge you to do a proper testing, and then I'm sure you'll see that other rings are more useful. Also, one more thing: Note that SoJ isn't even an endgame ring currently for, at least to my knowledge, any class/spec. The order is pretty much Endless Walk (Compass Rose+Traveler's Pledge) > CoE > Focus and Restraint > SoJ in terms of offense. Since you can't wear both Endless Walk and F+R, most specs these days use Compass Rose, which allows you to use CoE plus a defensive ring (Unity as a general choice or Band of Might for barbs in particular).
Well, switching WW to fire would have negated my +physical skill from my Reapers Wraps, so that becomes a wash doesnt it? It would have been physical rune with Reapers skill bonus or fire rune with SoJ skill bonus. I didnt see the benefit of keeping the fire on it at that time and if fire was "useless" in my head, vitality actually did have some use, that was my rationalization.
As far as "proper" testing... I cant test things I dont have. Im not trying to invent a new build or anything, Im just trying to maximize what I have. It's obvious that a ring with STR/CHC/CHD should beat a ring with STR/VIT/CHC. The entire point of this thread was my "discovery" that I could wear both SG rings at the same time and was hoping someone would chime in that knew if they both worked well together or not.
I have two other SoJ in my stash... one has Cold Skills and the other has lightning skills I think. I do have a complete set of Endless Walk, but I thought the rolls on them were kind of garbage. I guess Hellfire isnt justified anymore if thats the top choice?
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ModeratorKeep in mind what that was about: Testing the difference between two setups - double SG or SG+any other ring. What other gear you wear is completely irrelevant. Also, those tests are more reliable when they last longer, so usually I do them without weapon or gimp my DPS otherwise. As I said, you can almost do it naked with only the rings if you equip Mara's since most of Ghom's damage is poison.
Take a look at the builds here:
http://www.diablofans.com/builds?filter-build=7&filter-has-spell-2=-1&filter-build-tag=5&filter-class=2
Basically, ALL BARB BUILDS use the same setup: Hellfire Amulet + Focus/Restraint. In cube you have a bit of variance (CoE for damage, Unity/Band of Might for defense) but neither Skull Grasp, nor Stone of Jordan or the Endless Walk set play a role for barbs. However, this thread is about finding out if double Skull Grasp has some value, and all I want to do is point out how you can properly test the "alternatives". Focus+Restraint isn't really an option to test though as it means removing both rings (and it will be the best choice in the end, I'm sure about that). That's why I mention other rings such as CoE, SoJ, and so on.
Hope that clarifies a few things ;-)
I like testing things, especially unusual things, and I like that you defend your theory. It usually take forever to chance established gearing/skill choices and it's so easy to dismiss alternatives. However, it's really important to test properly and not fool yourself. Note that after all testing you feel that your double SG combination is better, then by all means use it! In the end, this game is about fun, and you should use what *you* think it's best. However, I'm not convinced yet by what you wrote here that the legacy SG is *not* broken. :-)
I just wish we could see the "behind the scenes" math the game is applying to the double SG combo. I mean, if it's applying the legacy additive at the end of the equation, it's pretty much worthless. If it's adding prior to the new rings multiplication, then it's worth it's weight in gold. Simple math says if base = 100 and I have +296% from my new ring and +391% from my legacy, then if it adds at the end 100*296=29600+391, I have 29991% If it adds prior to the multiplication, 100+391=491*296 then I have 145336% The issue I could for see with something like D3planner is how do the guys who wrote the site know where in the formula the legacy is added into the mix?
I also saw a really cool placebo effect earlier. I put on Focus and Restraint it felt "ok", then I put on Endless Walk and for some reason it felt awesome... and I know it wasnt doing anything to help damage wise. I understand trying to eliminate all variables and what not and trying to narrow down exact numbers as to what works better, but Im just not that dedicated, lol! I do like the double SG setup, and will probably run it for a while, but Im also going to take a long hard look at F/R as well if I can find some better rolled ones. I think a good portion of what im seeing is losing all the CHD and CHC I have on both of my SG rings. I only have one other ring with those kind of rolls and thats my Ancient Unity.
Anyhow, I appreciate all the input.
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Curse PremiumI'd guess it uses order of operations. which puts addition at the end.
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Hey everybody, just wanted to let you all know this is no longer an option. The last patch locked down my double skull grasp and made it so only one can be worn at a time. I went into a GR to F around a little bit in a lower level and was hitting like a wet noodle and I said WTF is wrong? Nothing really changed skill wise, what did they nerf? So I checked my gear and my legacy ring had a big lock over it. Replaced it with an Ancient Unity I had laying around and proceeded to melt everything in the same level GR I had just run. So yeah, they figured out the double SG was still possible and took it away.