What I got from that was that the universe makes perfect sense and it follows the same rules throughout (the laws of science) but we don't see it because we don't understand the laws of science enough.
This.
If science wasn't perfect, it wouldn't work. Just because we don't understand it's nature doesn't mean it's not perfect.
Science is perfect because it works, and not only that, but it works perfectly as well. :thumbsup:
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Science is perfect because it's laws can't be argued against. We're trying to understand science, but that doesn't mean that it's laws aren't absolute because we don't know everything yet.
Let me get this straight...
You're arguing that science is perfect.
Then you go on to say that we don't fully understand science yet.
Isn't that essentially religion? Isn't Christianity trying to solve the "mystery of faith". Yet people think it's perfect in every way. Isn't that religion?
Science, on the other hand, has things like gravity, in which we can see it in use, measure it, and predict it, yet we have no idea what it is. We don't understand all of it, yet we are now moving on from a "magical man" living the clouds is doing it. We are now understanding that science is involved in every aspect of our lives, and people deny it so much that they are willing to do extreme acts to change people's minds (aka 9/11).
If I eat a huge meal at a buffet and I gain a pound, is it due to science or is it because "god" is punishing me for my gluttony.
Obviously, the latter is the more psychological one. You feel guilty for eating so much, and since you see the end result, you feel that you've been punished for your actions.
But, then again, what if someone wanted to gain weight? Yes, there are people who do want to gain weight. So is "god" rewarding them for their gluttony? Gluttony is a sin; this is a paradox I see with Christianity. If the consequence is the reward you intended, is it really a punishment.
Now, the reason why I gained the pound can be explained through science. It may not be accurate by theory, but there is no denying that science had a part in it.
Ergo, science is perfect because not only does it work, but it also works perfectly (without error). Imagine a world where science messed up. Everything happens for a reason, a reason that can be explained through science.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Science is perfect because it's laws can't be argued against. We're trying to understand science, but that doesn't mean that it's laws aren't absolute because we don't know everything yet.
Let me get this straight...
You're arguing that science is perfect.
Then you go on to say that we don't fully understand science yet.
Isn't that essentially religion? Isn't Christianity trying to solve the "mystery of faith". Yet people think it's perfect in every way. Isn't that religion?
Science, on the other hand, has things like gravity, in which we can see it in use, measure it, and predict it, yet we have no idea what it is. We don't understand all of it, yet we are now moving on from a "magical man" living the clouds is doing it. We are now understanding that science is involved in every aspect of our lives, and people deny it so much that they are willing to do extreme acts to change people's minds (aka 9/11).
I can't believe at your age, you still haven't figured it out. How was the very first, basic thing created? There was nothing, and then there was something. A superior being had to create. I also refuse to believe that I'm living life simply to die and turn into a pile of bones, and that's that. The only thing that involves faith is that you believe that God has no beginning, and has no end..especially the former part of that sentence.
I just get this feeling that the arrogance and condescending nature of most science buffs leaves them even more naive than your average religious guy...It's to a point to where I can't even really comment on what half of you are talking about because I can't get past the fact that you don't see how incredibly silly it is to think that you actually understand the universe.
The way half of you speak is as if there is no mystery left. As if Science has actually answered all of the questions. I'm not even saying science is bad at all but stop making it out to be more than it is.
There's so many abstract ideas that are completely plausible that would completely flip science upside down. What if logic was an incorrect way to understand the universe around us? What if an alien species used a different method of deduction to understand the universe that made logic seem stupid.
For instance, has a mathematics teacher ever showed you more than one way to solve a math problem? Even further, has a math teacher ever shown you how to incorrectly solve a math problem that seemed correct in almost every way?
I had a calculus teacher show me how to divide by zero using a proof. It's not even possible but using a certain principle and ignoring another one it seemed completely correct. (please don't over analyze this and miss my point just so you can tell me how much you know about how you soooo cannot divide by zero because I'm completely aware of the fact that you can't divide by zero)
That analogy is supposed to illustrate possibilities of other forms of critical thinking that would act as the math principle of the analogy. So, in other words, what if there was some grand concept that we were COMPLETELY missing that was right in front of us that makes just about everything we think is real, not real or correct at all.
Like I said, I take a philosophical approach which is certainly not for everyone. But from my standpoint, the way the word fact has been thrown around here is hilarious.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
So, in other words, what if there was some grand concept that we were COMPLETELY missing that was right in front of us that makes just about everything we think is real, not real or correct at all.
I think about that possibility everyday. I don't take everything at face value.
My whole argument is that science can be used to explain many, many, many things about the universe, but, then again, it can't be used to disprove the existence of a deity or higher being.
Philosophy is all very complicated. I try to take a philosophical approach to a lot of things, but if something can be explained through science, I tend to take that. I don't think science created everything.
I'm not trying to make this debate sterile from thought of religion. I'm just showing my arguments in the most logical way I can. I'm not trying to disprove anybody, I'm just trying to get my views out there so everyone can understand.
I don't know how existence came into being, that's something I think about everyday, everyday. No shit. It's also followed by other thoughts like, "why do we do the things we do" and "am I really supposed to think like this". It's all part of how I think and I like to think about things.
I guess I'm like the religious in a sense that I can use science to "prove" how some things work. I can also use science to prove why some things don't. The sun gives us heat because it's heat radiates through empty space and reaches our planet. It's less hot at night because the sun isn't in our hemisphere. It's as simple as that.
I use science to prove the simple things. I don't use it to prove the abstract. Science is a being all in itself and it's ways are perfect, but science isn't everything.
Edit: if you really want my views on what happens after we die, I don't know. I'm afraid of the thought of not waking from slumber, but I can't explain anything else besides that. If there is a heaven, I don't know about it and nobody can prove there is one. That's the mystery of life and that's something science can't prove. I don't even think scientists dare find out what happens when we die.
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Science is perfect because it's laws can't be argued against. We're trying to understand science, but that doesn't mean that it's laws aren't absolute because we don't know everything yet.
Let me get this straight...
You're arguing that science is perfect.
Then you go on to say that we don't fully understand science yet.
Isn't that essentially religion? Isn't Christianity trying to solve the "mystery of faith". Yet people think it's perfect in every way. Isn't that religion?
Science, on the other hand, has things like gravity, in which we can see it in use, measure it, and predict it, yet we have no idea what it is. We don't understand all of it, yet we are now moving on from a "magical man" living the clouds is doing it. We are now understanding that science is involved in every aspect of our lives, and people deny it so much that they are willing to do extreme acts to change people's minds (aka 9/11).
I can't believe at your age, you still haven't figured it out. How was the very first, basic thing created? There was nothing, and then there was something. A superior being had to create. I also refuse to believe that I'm living life simply to die and turn into a pile of bones, and that's that. The only thing that involves faith is that you believe that God has no beginning, and has no end..especially the former part of that sentence.
In science, we have such things as unknowns, what modern science CAN'T prove. For example, the Big Bang. I already said how the Big Bang theory originated, and I also said that we do not know how the Big Bang happened. That's an unknown.
To me, life was not fine tuned. There is no fine tuner. We are simply the result of millions of years of evolution. Religion is a way to comfort yourself from idea of death, and it is one of the real reasons why religion was created in the first place. I cannot answer you how something came from nothing. I do not even know if we even exist, or if we're all some mirror image of energy. Or perhaps we're all part of another universe. We do not know this, and we will not know this. Hell, maybe time is an illusion. Maybe the entire universe is one dimensional. We don't know, but it is natural to run to the easiest explanation: God did it.
I never said that science holds all the answers. I said that it WILL hold all the answers. All we need is time.
No it won't. It most definitely won't. There are so many undiscovered things, and so many things that can't be discovered. After they discover what happened that caused the formation of the universe (and I mean, FULLY understand), they will come up with an explanation like "X caused Y to happen". What caused X to happen? Z? What caused Z to happen? A? What caused A to happen? So on so forth. You can't keep going back with science..it has its limitations. There is no evidence to how the universe got created. I might be wrong, but I'm absolutely sure they don't know where the "starting materials" of our current day universe originated from. And what they originated from originated from. I hope you grasp this, since your entire concept of things is absolutely absurd.
No it won't. It most definitely won't. There are so many undiscovered things, and so many things that can't be discovered. After they discover what happened that caused the formation of the universe (and I mean, FULLY understand), they will come up with an explanation like "X caused Y to happen". What caused X to happen? Z? What caused Z to happen? A? What caused A to happen? So on so forth. You can't keep going back with science..it has its limitations. There is no evidence to how the universe got created. I might be wrong, but I'm absolutely sure they don't know where the "starting materials" of our current day universe originated from. And what they originated from originated from. I hope you grasp this, since your entire concept of things is absolutely absurd.
Actually, your perceptions on science is like Miss Teen USA lecturing a brain surgeon on neuron mechanics. Just because science does not have the answer right now, does not mean it will not HAVE the answer. Example, the internet. The tool you take for granted. The idea of fusing every single computer in the world to create a world network seemed impossible, yet it was done. Flying seemed impossible, yet it has been done. Saying that all the unknowns in science are God's work not only make you look foolish, it makes you look like a coward.
Science has no limitations, and people have been reminded of that every day. I don't think you realize how fast science is moving right now, maybe even too fast. Universities like Harvard, MIT, Yale, etc are all working day and night trying to make your life better, and to figure out all the answers you have. Let me remind you that 10 years ago, wireless internet was a dream, and now, we have wireless internet on planes.
Science, again, is NOT a religion. Religion deals with magic, fantasy, Gods, etc. Science deals with proofs, and you cannot deny that.
I like science simply because it attempts to unravel the mysteries of nature. It does it with the eyes of wonderment, it still makes discoveries that suspend disbelief and makes one think of the infinite possibilities in the universe. Religion on the other hand has the apposite effect on me, it operates on the postulate that it already has the answers and does not inspire my imagination, it's like 5000 year stale bread.
But that doesn't mean God (which I believe in and believe is amorphic) is at odds with science, I just think science explores God's creations like a kid with a screw driver likes to explore whats inside a toaster. So the kid runs off with it and takes it apart to learn.
I like science simply because it attempts to unravel the mysteries of nature. It does it with the eyes of wonderment, it still makes discoveries that suspend disbelief and makes one think of the infinite possibilities in the universe. Religion on the other hand has the apposite effect on me, it operates on the postulate that it already has the answers and does not inspire my imagination, it's like 5000 year stale bread.
But that doesn't mean God (which I believe in and believe is amorphic) is at odds with science, I just think science explores God's creations like a kid with a screw driver likes to explore whats inside a toaster. So the kid runs off with it and takes it apart to learn.
You see, its this point of view that I can deal with. It's saying that God created science, but not saying all unknowns are God and science should never ever go into them.
Evolution, for example, is something that many Christians are actually starting to accept, while many are refusing to believe in "Evilution". I, however, believe in it. Not only does it perfectly map out where we came from, it also explains the origin and diversity of life. I also believe in carbon dating, so I don't believe that the Earth is 6000 years old.
The bible didnt say it was 6000 years old. Please for the love of god stop taking everything you read for face value...
Hypothetical situation: God exists, has no beginning or end. Does not live at ALL in "time". God inspires bible and says "Sure, why not, I created it in 6 days."
Why does this apply? Because IN the bible it says pretty much word for word that to God, a day could be a thousand years. I'm so tired of people bringing up that same no researched point about the 6000 year thing...
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The bible didnt say it was 6000 years old. Please for the love of god stop taking everything you read for face value...
Hypothetical situation: God exists, has no beginning or end. Does not live at ALL in "time". God inspires bible and says "Sure, why not, I created it in 6 days."
Why does this apply? Because IN the bible it says pretty much word for word that to God, a day could be a thousand years. I'm so tired of people bringing up that same no researched point about the 6000 year thing...
I actually chose a random number. So this is coincidental. And I am just repeating what people say. People said that the bible said it's 6000 years old, so I believed them. Jesus I'm not conspiring against you here.
Ya but everybody comes with the same line and always attacks that and it's stupid. I'm not offended, just annoyed lol.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Ya but everybody comes with the same line and always attacks that and it's stupid. I'm not offended, just annoyed lol.
People use it that line because a good amount of people say it's 6000 years old. Including venomfangx, Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and many other influential Christians. I'm sorry if it annoyed you, but it's not something I made up. People believe in this.
Right but if your going to say that then it's your responsibility to clarify that your referring to what people believe as opposed to what the bible says and how it can be interpreted so that we can shun just a tad bit of light upon a massive amount of ignorance.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Umpa65, I've met Christian's who believe the bible is literal truth, nice folks but if I didn't hear it with my own ears I wouldn't have believed it. I know a couple, they are friends of mine and I love them dearly, but they do believe the earth is only like 6,000 years old. They believe the 7 day creation story was really 7 days, they believe that dinosaurs coexisted with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. I don't know what passages in the bible they base this on but I was on a road trip with them and got the earful, all I could do was say that's fascinating and nod my head trying to appear intrigued.
The creationism museum in Kansas has exhibits that mirror those beliefs, check this action out and notice the animatronics velociraptors hanging out in the garden of Eden with Eve. You'll hear a Christian paleontologist say he believes dinosaur fossils are 4300 years old.
Jehovah Witnesses still believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch despite the fact that Deuteronomy 34 gives a full account of Moses funeral and the 30 day period of morning in the 3rd person. Their explanation for this? He was inspired by God to write it that way. I don't know about Moses, but I might have a few questions for the almighty if I were writing about my own funeral in the 3rd person in the past tense.
Would you care to enlighten me as to who wrote the Pentateuch? Does that one passage really mean he didn't write the rest of it or any of it?
And for that matter...So? I don't see what the relevance of that point is lol. Not being rude I just don't really see why it matters for any reason other than pure academic interest.
And damn, maybe one of his followers finished up Deuteronomy for him.
Also, Jw's are not the only ones that believe that. Jewish people also claim authorship to Moses by way of the Talmud.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the bible attributed to being written by Moses. Many theologists started noticing things that didn't make sense like Moses writing about his own funeral in the 3rd person in the past tense in the 2nd book. Or other things like Numbers 12:3 saying "Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on earth." One would not expect the most humble man on Earth to say hey and I'm the most humble man on earth! I agree it shouldn't matter but there are those who will debate the issue into the ground.
BTW I threw down some votes in your direction on your art, nicely done.
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This.
If science wasn't perfect, it wouldn't work. Just because we don't understand it's nature doesn't mean it's not perfect.
Science is perfect because it works, and not only that, but it works perfectly as well. :thumbsup:
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Isn't that essentially religion? Isn't Christianity trying to solve the "mystery of faith". Yet people think it's perfect in every way. Isn't that religion?
Science, on the other hand, has things like gravity, in which we can see it in use, measure it, and predict it, yet we have no idea what it is. We don't understand all of it, yet we are now moving on from a "magical man" living the clouds is doing it. We are now understanding that science is involved in every aspect of our lives, and people deny it so much that they are willing to do extreme acts to change people's minds (aka 9/11).
If I eat a huge meal at a buffet and I gain a pound, is it due to science or is it because "god" is punishing me for my gluttony.
Obviously, the latter is the more psychological one. You feel guilty for eating so much, and since you see the end result, you feel that you've been punished for your actions.
But, then again, what if someone wanted to gain weight? Yes, there are people who do want to gain weight. So is "god" rewarding them for their gluttony? Gluttony is a sin; this is a paradox I see with Christianity. If the consequence is the reward you intended, is it really a punishment.
Now, the reason why I gained the pound can be explained through science. It may not be accurate by theory, but there is no denying that science had a part in it.
Ergo, science is perfect because not only does it work, but it also works perfectly (without error). Imagine a world where science messed up. Everything happens for a reason, a reason that can be explained through science.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
I can't believe at your age, you still haven't figured it out. How was the very first, basic thing created? There was nothing, and then there was something. A superior being had to create. I also refuse to believe that I'm living life simply to die and turn into a pile of bones, and that's that. The only thing that involves faith is that you believe that God has no beginning, and has no end..especially the former part of that sentence.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
The way half of you speak is as if there is no mystery left. As if Science has actually answered all of the questions. I'm not even saying science is bad at all but stop making it out to be more than it is.
There's so many abstract ideas that are completely plausible that would completely flip science upside down. What if logic was an incorrect way to understand the universe around us? What if an alien species used a different method of deduction to understand the universe that made logic seem stupid.
For instance, has a mathematics teacher ever showed you more than one way to solve a math problem? Even further, has a math teacher ever shown you how to incorrectly solve a math problem that seemed correct in almost every way?
I had a calculus teacher show me how to divide by zero using a proof. It's not even possible but using a certain principle and ignoring another one it seemed completely correct. (please don't over analyze this and miss my point just so you can tell me how much you know about how you soooo cannot divide by zero because I'm completely aware of the fact that you can't divide by zero)
That analogy is supposed to illustrate possibilities of other forms of critical thinking that would act as the math principle of the analogy. So, in other words, what if there was some grand concept that we were COMPLETELY missing that was right in front of us that makes just about everything we think is real, not real or correct at all.
Like I said, I take a philosophical approach which is certainly not for everyone. But from my standpoint, the way the word fact has been thrown around here is hilarious.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think about that possibility everyday. I don't take everything at face value.
My whole argument is that science can be used to explain many, many, many things about the universe, but, then again, it can't be used to disprove the existence of a deity or higher being.
Philosophy is all very complicated. I try to take a philosophical approach to a lot of things, but if something can be explained through science, I tend to take that. I don't think science created everything.
I'm not trying to make this debate sterile from thought of religion. I'm just showing my arguments in the most logical way I can. I'm not trying to disprove anybody, I'm just trying to get my views out there so everyone can understand.
I don't know how existence came into being, that's something I think about everyday, everyday. No shit. It's also followed by other thoughts like, "why do we do the things we do" and "am I really supposed to think like this". It's all part of how I think and I like to think about things.
I guess I'm like the religious in a sense that I can use science to "prove" how some things work. I can also use science to prove why some things don't. The sun gives us heat because it's heat radiates through empty space and reaches our planet. It's less hot at night because the sun isn't in our hemisphere. It's as simple as that.
I use science to prove the simple things. I don't use it to prove the abstract. Science is a being all in itself and it's ways are perfect, but science isn't everything.
Edit: if you really want my views on what happens after we die, I don't know. I'm afraid of the thought of not waking from slumber, but I can't explain anything else besides that. If there is a heaven, I don't know about it and nobody can prove there is one. That's the mystery of life and that's something science can't prove. I don't even think scientists dare find out what happens when we die.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
In science, we have such things as unknowns, what modern science CAN'T prove. For example, the Big Bang. I already said how the Big Bang theory originated, and I also said that we do not know how the Big Bang happened. That's an unknown.
To me, life was not fine tuned. There is no fine tuner. We are simply the result of millions of years of evolution. Religion is a way to comfort yourself from idea of death, and it is one of the real reasons why religion was created in the first place. I cannot answer you how something came from nothing. I do not even know if we even exist, or if we're all some mirror image of energy. Or perhaps we're all part of another universe. We do not know this, and we will not know this. Hell, maybe time is an illusion. Maybe the entire universe is one dimensional. We don't know, but it is natural to run to the easiest explanation: God did it.
I never said that science holds all the answers. I said that it WILL hold all the answers. All we need is time.
This.
Edit: Not saying he's right, but it's a theory I can really click with.
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
Actually, your perceptions on science is like Miss Teen USA lecturing a brain surgeon on neuron mechanics. Just because science does not have the answer right now, does not mean it will not HAVE the answer. Example, the internet. The tool you take for granted. The idea of fusing every single computer in the world to create a world network seemed impossible, yet it was done. Flying seemed impossible, yet it has been done. Saying that all the unknowns in science are God's work not only make you look foolish, it makes you look like a coward.
Science has no limitations, and people have been reminded of that every day. I don't think you realize how fast science is moving right now, maybe even too fast. Universities like Harvard, MIT, Yale, etc are all working day and night trying to make your life better, and to figure out all the answers you have. Let me remind you that 10 years ago, wireless internet was a dream, and now, we have wireless internet on planes.
Science, again, is NOT a religion. Religion deals with magic, fantasy, Gods, etc. Science deals with proofs, and you cannot deny that.
But that doesn't mean God (which I believe in and believe is amorphic) is at odds with science, I just think science explores God's creations like a kid with a screw driver likes to explore whats inside a toaster. So the kid runs off with it and takes it apart to learn.
You see, its this point of view that I can deal with. It's saying that God created science, but not saying all unknowns are God and science should never ever go into them.
Evolution, for example, is something that many Christians are actually starting to accept, while many are refusing to believe in "Evilution". I, however, believe in it. Not only does it perfectly map out where we came from, it also explains the origin and diversity of life. I also believe in carbon dating, so I don't believe that the Earth is 6000 years old.
Hypothetical situation: God exists, has no beginning or end. Does not live at ALL in "time". God inspires bible and says "Sure, why not, I created it in 6 days."
Why does this apply? Because IN the bible it says pretty much word for word that to God, a day could be a thousand years. I'm so tired of people bringing up that same no researched point about the 6000 year thing...
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I actually chose a random number. So this is coincidental. And I am just repeating what people say. People said that the bible said it's 6000 years old, so I believed them. Jesus I'm not conspiring against you here.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
People use it that line because a good amount of people say it's 6000 years old. Including venomfangx, Kent Hovind, Ray Comfort, and many other influential Christians. I'm sorry if it annoyed you, but it's not something I made up. People believe in this.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
The creationism museum in Kansas has exhibits that mirror those beliefs, check this action out and notice the animatronics velociraptors hanging out in the garden of Eden with Eve. You'll hear a Christian paleontologist say he believes dinosaur fossils are 4300 years old.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L9DvQsJDzeY
Jehovah Witnesses still believe that Moses wrote the Pentateuch despite the fact that Deuteronomy 34 gives a full account of Moses funeral and the 30 day period of morning in the 3rd person. Their explanation for this? He was inspired by God to write it that way. I don't know about Moses, but I might have a few questions for the almighty if I were writing about my own funeral in the 3rd person in the past tense.
And for that matter...So? I don't see what the relevance of that point is lol. Not being rude I just don't really see why it matters for any reason other than pure academic interest.
And damn, maybe one of his followers finished up Deuteronomy for him.
Also, Jw's are not the only ones that believe that. Jewish people also claim authorship to Moses by way of the Talmud.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
BTW I threw down some votes in your direction on your art, nicely done.