Religion is a monopoly of faith. Ones beliefs should be their own. Basing a religion off a book of moral stories is the modern day equivalent of basing a religion off a childrens television show. Centralized belief systems just cause conflict. But if everyone had their own ideas instead of copy/pasting their beliefs, religious conflict would never mature. All books with religious content are fundamentally flawed. They are the beliefs of a fallible human, and the idea of infallibility is preposterous.
Morality can be taught and learned through both education and religion. Both have the same aspect, it would be pointless to learn both, basically attending two English classes of the same level.
I'm confused on the idea of infability. IF we do not believe in error, then our choices have no meaning in life. Without knowledge of the positive and negative (error) then society as we know it will crumble and mankind would cease to exist. We need the belief of error to learn from mistakes. We need it to determine reality from unreality
I do not deny that the Bible inspires on doing the right thing, but I do deny is that it that "the stuff about the afterlife was kinda put in there." From one of the prayers I believe there is a passage saying "He will come again to judge the living and the dead." This sounds like a final judgement on mankind and 'he' sounds like Jesus. Looking foward to this 'judgement' is basically the poitn I was making on my previous post
Well on this passage of this quote. Both education and religion both teach lessons on moality. Education's purpose is to teach lessons that will help you in life. Religion's purpose is to set a standard belief for those that prefer 'control' over their life I admit, I may have been a little harsh on religion's purpose but I spoke basically the truth.
Now what you would prefer, a standard in which is a 100% garuntee in the future or a standard which is a plausible garuntee in the future?
This is basically what my signature explains. It is better to live on things that are real and have proof rather than live on things that is based on speculation and belief without proof.
on the last part...whats wrong with basing principles on something that may even be false if they give good results? Lets say that the bible was written by a bunch of cookes ( how do you spell that word? and i dont mean a chef either lol). So? It gives really good guidlines, i dont see its authenticity really being an issue when it comes to the ideals it gives. I dont care whether the bible is fact or fiction, regardless it is an incredible book that gives good guidelines. (i cant speak for the koran or anything, but maybe the same for it)
And here goes my rant on education. Our AMERICAN education system is GARBAGE. Probably a great one in retrospect to other countries, but all together i think they way it works is soooo flawed and wrong. It basically does this: Sets you up to try go to college, dont do ANYTHING else with your life except for go to college. If you dont goto college you FAIL at life. The increasingly demanding level of curriculum in order to try to get a step ahead to do what? go to college.
To quote my favorite legal show "what happened to the dreamers?" There is barely anything left of those pursuing goals not revolving around college because the system has narrowed down incredibly finely how they want us to learn.
Now, what happens if someone DOESNT go to college?????END OF LIFE! working dead end jobs and suffering from poverty most of your life if you dont go to college. The "system" has completely neglected so many races, it accommodates very well for white people. The environments that some grow up in and how they are raised just do not mix with our education system, so they fall through the cracks and end up working the streets, dead end jobs or being hobos essentially.
The education system has given this mindset to the nation "without a college degree you go nowhere" where as before there were more opportunities for an inventive mindset.
The values taught by the school system may give good values to get you ahead, but that is it. Its all about getting ahead in life, no matter what. No matter who's foot you have to step on. Where are the morals in that? It just makes for a money hungry grumpy bunch of people.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
ZOMG...you are getting on a BIG ship there murderface.... Those are a lot of bold points that i KNOW for a fact you can prove non of which. You cant prove the stories where not divinely inspired, nor do you know that religion is a monopoly of faith. in essence, you dont know which came first, the egg or the chicken, if that stuff actually happened, if there was an adam and eve, or whoever in whatever religion then faith was always there because they knew a god existed.
I believe the ship you have boarded is much larger than mine. Divine inspiration is a harder pill to swallow than a bunch regular people writing up a book of stories. I can prove that it is a monopoly of faith.
In Economics, a monopoly (or "Pure oligopoly") exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.
A religion (enterprise) has control over beliefs (product) that you must abide in order to belong (access).
Please inform me of how the old chicken/egg argument applies here.
They did'nt know god exists, they belived someone that told them an intriuging story.
Now I will attack Christian prayer.
If god is infact infallible then why, as fallible humans, do we feel compelled to tell him how to do his job?
Infallibility as it pertains to a god. If god is infallible, then he makes no mistakes, and therefore all creation has meaning and purpose, based on the plan of a creator. If god is fallible, then creation, or any aspect of it, could be an accident and have no purpose or meaning. There's other issues involved, too, but that's basically the premise.
I don't think people are talking about infallible humans- I know at least in the Abrahamic religions, humans are never portrayed as infallible or perfect, the only exception being when the Christ incarnates himself as a human to take the punishment, supernatural and physical, of the human race's sins, or something along that line. Of course, the Christ incarnation only applies to Christianity as it started with the apostles (as in, Jews do not believe that the Christ came yet, and Islam views Jesus as a "Great Prophet" in the first part of the Quaran, but still human.) To my knowledge, prophets (excluding the Christ issue) are never described as innately perfect, but that the words of god that pass through them are. Not sure if I got that right, but that's how I understand it. Dunno.
Infallibility as it pertains to a god. If god is infallible, then he makes no mistakes, and therefore all creation has meaning and purpose, based on the plan of a creator. If god is fallible, then creation, or any aspect of it, could be an accident and have no purpose or meaning. There's other issues involved, too, but that's basically the premise.
I don't think people are talking about infallible humans- I know at least in the Abrahamic religions, humans are never portrayed as infallible or perfect, the only exception being when the Christ incarnates himself as a human to take the punishment, supernatural and physical, of the human race's sins, or something along that line. Of course, the Christ incarnation only applies to Christianity as it started with the apostles (as in, Jews do not believe that the Christ came yet, and Islam views Jesus as a "Great Prophet" in the first part of the Quaran, but still human.) To my knowledge, prophets (excluding the Christ issue) are never described as innately perfect, but that the words of god that pass through them are. Not sure if I got that right, but that's how I understand it. Dunno.
Yes you have got it right. Well if you go with the disciple view. None of Jesus' disciples were perfect, put the teachings that they given through him were believed to be 'divine' and 'ture' which in my point of view is false.
Infallibility as it pertains to a god. If god is infallible, then he makes no mistakes, and therefore all creation has meaning and purpose, based on the plan of a creator. If god is fallible, then creation, or any aspect of it, could be an accident and have no purpose or meaning. There's other issues involved, too, but that's basically the premise.
I don't think people are talking about infallible humans- I know at least in the Abrahamic religions, humans are never portrayed as infallible or perfect, the only exception being when the Christ incarnates himself as a human to take the punishment, supernatural and physical, of the human race's sins, or something along that line. Of course, the Christ incarnation only applies to Christianity as it started with the apostles (as in, Jews do not believe that the Christ came yet, and Islam views Jesus as a "Great Prophet" in the first part of the Quaran, but still human.) To my knowledge, prophets (excluding the Christ issue) are never described as innately perfect, but that the words of god that pass through them are. Not sure if I got that right, but that's how I understand it. Dunno.
Yes you have got it right. Well if you go with the disciple view. None of Jesus' disciples were perfect, put the teachings that they given through him were believed to be 'divine' and 'true'.
I believe the ship you have boarded is much larger than mine. Divine inspiration is a harder pill to swallow than a bunch regular people writing up a book of stories. I can prove that it is a monopoly of faith.
A religion (enterprise) has control over beliefs (product) that you must abide in order to belong (access).
Please inform me of how the old chicken/egg argument applies here.
They did'nt know god exists, they belived someone that told them an intriuging story.
Now I will attack Christian prayer.
If god is infact infallible then why, as fallible humans, do we feel compelled to tell him how to do his job?
when do we tell him how to do his job?that is confusing.
It wasnt just an intriguing story, there were angels guarding the garden of eden. If adam and eve existed then faith did not come first, proof did. It eventually turned into faith after the flood. If you ever get a chance, take a read at the book of enoch that didnt make it into the bible barely in our modern era.It tells of a time before the flood where demons and angels had a lot of contact with humans, but after God stopped it, i wont get into why, it would be too long, you can read it yourself if you want. But if that was all true, then first there was proof, then after a few hundred years by word of mouth it would still commonly be accepted as truth, but as time went on these occurrences would still not happen, but since they knew it to be true because their great grandaddy was a seventh generation human they would create religions to maintain the word passed down for generations. According to the bible it actually started in a way with moses, sort of. but ya, the religions would not have been there to monopolize faith, ecause faith wouldnt be an issue if everyone felt it to be a true thing and not so much a matter of faith. And in turn after very long periods of time other religions would form and so on.
So with the egg thing. say the chicken is faith and the egg is religion. In your case you claim the chicken to come first, that from the VERY beginning it was still like it is today, a matter of faith. But you dont know that, you cant prove it.
And i say, the egg came before the chicken. Religion was formed to protect the truth of their existence, after hundreds, thousands of years the religions where there but no miraculous acts, so then it turned into a matter of faith.
But what of that prayer thing? im still a bit confused on that.
To magistrate. Adam and Eve were perceived to be without flaw. They were perfect. His angels were too. But perfection by our definition may not be the real one. Satan may have been perfect, but that doesnt mean he could not make imperfect decisions. He still had a will, the idea of perfection and will almost contradict themselves even.
So Satan, or Lucifer the light bearer, made an imperfect decision ( if there can be one of those)..actually, the decision cant really be defined as imperfect because it is a matter of opinion. So he made a decision that he wanted to be praised like God, so he proceeded to deceive something perfect. Something with will, with free will the humans could become imperfect by their own decisions. But this would not be a case to make God infallable if infact a persons free will cannot be defined as perfect or imperfect.
It could have all been in the plan. God could have been sitting around and decided, i want to try something...i will make these thigs called angels first, then humans, both will be perfect in every way and also have free will. Lets see what happens. I mean, you cant really put a finger on a concept like that without thinking a bit crazy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
when do we tell him how to do his job?that is confusing.
It wasnt just an intriguing story, there were angels guarding the garden of eden. If adam and eve existed then faith did not come first, proof did. It eventually turned into faith after the flood. If you ever get a chance, take a read at the book of enoch that didnt make it into the bible barely in our modern era.It tells of a time before the flood where demons and angels had a lot of contact with humans, but after God stopped it, i wont get into why, it would be too long, you can read it yourself if you want. But if that was all true, then first there was proof, then after a few hundred years by word of mouth it would still commonly be accepted as truth, but as time went on these occurrences would still not happen, but since they knew it to be true because their great grandaddy was a seventh generation human they would create religions to maintain the word passed down for generations. According to the bible it actually started in a way with moses, sort of. but ya, the religions would not have been there to monopolize faith, ecause faith wouldnt be an issue if everyone felt it to be a true thing and not so much a matter of faith. And in turn after very long periods of time other religions would form and so on.
So with the egg thing. say the chicken is faith and the egg is religion. In your case you claim the chicken to come first, that from the VERY beginning it was still like it is today, a matter of faith. But you dont know that, you cant prove it.
And i say, the egg came before the chicken. Religion was formed to protect the truth of their existence, after hundreds, thousands of years the religions where there but no miraculous acts, so then it turned into a matter of faith.
But what of that prayer thing? im still a bit confused on that.
Still replying to your other post, but this one i will reply to:
Quote from "Umpa65" »
when do we tell him how to do his job?that is confusing..
Ummmmm Holocaust, millions of people losing faith in God is one example...
on the last part...whats wrong with basing principles on something that may even be false if they give good results? Lets say that the bible was written by a bunch of cookes ( how do you spell that word? and i dont mean a chef either lol). So? It gives really good guidlines, i dont see its authenticity really being an issue when it comes to the ideals it gives. I dont care whether the bible is fact or fiction, regardless it is an incredible book that gives good guidelines. (i cant speak for the koran or anything, but maybe the same for it)
And here goes my rant on education. Our AMERICAN education system is GARBAGE. Probably a great one in retrospect to other countries, but all together i think they way it works is soooo flawed and wrong. It basically does this: Sets you up to try go to college, dont do ANYTHING else with your life except for go to college. If you dont goto college you FAIL at life. The increasingly demanding level of curriculum in order to try to get a step ahead to do what? go to college.
To quote my favorite legal show "what happened to the dreamers?" There is barely anything left of those pursuing goals not revolving around college because the system has narrowed down incredibly finely how they want us to learn.
Now, what happens if someone DOESNT go to college?????END OF LIFE! working dead end jobs and suffering from poverty most of your life if you dont go to college. The "system" has completely neglected so many races, it accommodates very well for white people. The environments that some grow up in and how they are raised just do not mix with our education system, so they fall through the cracks and end up working the streets, dead end jobs or being hobos essentially.
The education system has given this mindset to the nation "without a college degree you go nowhere" where as before there were more opportunities for an inventive mindset.
The values taught by the school system may give good values to get you ahead, but that is it. Its all about getting ahead in life, no matter what. No matter who's foot you have to step on. Where are the morals in that? It just makes for a money hungry grumpy bunch of people.
Alright, take out education and the system. We are a society that is bent on learnign from religion or Christianity as this thread leads to. Now what happened in the old times where the Church and Goverment were as whole? Anyone who defied it was shunned and prosecuted AKA No chance for 'dreamers' as your post says.
I don't see anything wrong with religion, especially Christianity because that's the one I'm most familiar with. Atheist or not everyone can see that there is a good set of rules to follow for the most part.
Those who will only follow rules for fear of punishment now have punishment to fear.
Those who do not fear the punishment of eternal damnation should still be able to take the good from the teachings.
Quote from name="The Boondock Saints »
'>Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal, these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
when do we tell him how to do his job?that is confusing.
It wasnt just an intriguing story, there were angels guarding the garden of eden. If adam and eve existed then faith did not come first, proof did. It eventually turned into faith after the flood. If you ever get a chance, take a read at the book of enoch that didnt make it into the bible barely in our modern era.It tells of a time before the flood where demons and angels had a lot of contact with humans, but after God stopped it, i wont get into why, it would be too long, you can read it yourself if you want. But if that was all true, then first there was proof, then after a few hundred years by word of mouth it would still commonly be accepted as truth, but as time went on these occurrences would still not happen, but since they knew it to be true because their great grandaddy was a seventh generation human they would create religions to maintain the word passed down for generations. According to the bible it actually started in a way with moses, sort of. but ya, the religions would not have been there to monopolize faith, ecause faith wouldnt be an issue if everyone felt it to be a true thing and not so much a matter of faith. And in turn after very long periods of time other religions would form and so on.
So with the egg thing. say the chicken is faith and the egg is religion. In your case you claim the chicken to come first, that from the VERY beginning it was still like it is today, a matter of faith. But you dont know that, you cant prove it.
And i say, the egg came before the chicken. Religion was formed to protect the truth of their existence, after hundreds, thousands of years the religions where there but no miraculous acts, so then it turned into a matter of faith.
But what of that prayer thing? im still a bit confused on that.
There is far more evidence that we evolved from chimps than there is for the whole adam/eve tale. There is no evidence to support that there was ever a great flood. In fact there is overwhelming evidence to support otherwise. Which makes your whole argument dissolve.
By praying, you are in essence telling god what to do.
L2P. I think you should read the bible if you havn't already so that you can get an understanding as to what it really teaches. Those things that happen to mankind are not because of God. God didn't will millions of people to die by any means. IF you dont know, or havn't gandered at the age old battle of good and evil in the christian terms i will help refresh you.
Devil " I can do what you do! People and Angels should praise me as they do you!"
God "No, your dumb dont try it, i promise you will fail"
Devil "Bring it SUCKA!!!!!"
God " ya..im gonna cast you down to the earth now so that you can chill the hell out!" ( I really hope you caught that punn before you read this)
Devil *on earth* "Pssssttttttt im a sssssssssnake!!!! Eat from that tree to prove god wrong!"
God*to devil* "Oh no you didnt just GO there!zomg...now i have something to prove to the entire universe....."
God *to adam and eve* "ok..you guys are idiots for choosing that, you may have been perfect but jeez, seriously you fell for that? Now i have to cast you out and no longer will you live for eternity, instead you will live a life of hardship and so will your offspring.dumbasses!"
God *to devil* *roles up sleeves* "AIGHT HOMESKILLIT! you wana play this game that bad dont you? lets do it them. I bet mankind that there will be a few people that believe in me and do the right thing without direct contact, you can influence them as much as you want, you can manipulate events to your liking. You can do whatever you need to do to get the job done, i gaurantee you will fail...GG"
Devil "its on,i will get every single human being to turn against you, i will do what it takes, if i have to kill some or torture them then so be it, i will have my way. ZOMG im gonna own da face!"
later......
Some dude "God, can oyu help me man? im really hurting right now, my entire family is gone, my fortune, everything"
God "i would really like to get you out of this fix..i would...but that wouldnt prove anything, i told a guy that you will still do whats right even though he puts you through so much bs" *nodds head* "yes i know...he is an asshole, if only your ancestors would have not made the wrong decision you wouldnt have to to worry about him. sorry dude"
So that was a nice little comical sum up of the story set forth through the bible. In 1st john 5:19 it tells us "we know we originate with the true God, but the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one"
So in conclusion, biblically, god is not the cause of all the deaths, when someone dies its not because god needs another angel in heaven imo
To murderface, lets not turn this into a flamewar. yes? back up some of those facts. there is TONS of proof of a flood, science doesnt even argue the flood. Even that TONS of cultures ALL have flood stories is proof enough. But even my chemistry teacher, who is also a chemistry professor at a university gave this whole freaking lecture on how science supports the flood theory and how it didnt rain prior to a flood that precipitation and a mist helped grow the earths plant life rather than rain.
Stop opening cans of worms without backup. If you would like to backup your claims then be my guest i will backup mine.
give me that overwhelming evidence. Lets google duke this out if we must. But im sorry, science supports a flood, and also historically. I will gg you with flood proof murderface
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
There is far more evidence that we evolved from chimps than there is for the whole adam/eve tale. There is no evidence to support that there was ever a great flood. In fact there is overwhelming evidence to support otherwise. Which makes your whole argument dissolve.
Let's not drag evolution into all this. It always gets nasty after that.
By praying, you are in essence telling god what to do.
Which is exactly why I don't pray really. Even though the bible says to I feel like it's bothering God with my bitching and he has better things to do. (kind of feels like the art debate! sorry I had to).
L2P. I think you should read the bible if you havn't already so that you can get an understanding as to what it really teaches. Those things that happen to mankind are not because of God. God didn't will millions of people to die by any means. IF you dont know, or havn't gandered at the age old battle of good and evil in the christian terms i will help refresh you.
Devil " I can do what you do! People and Angels should praise me as they do you!"
God "No, your dumb dont try it, i promise you will fail"
Devil "Bring it SUCKA!!!!!"
God " ya..im gonna cast you down to the earth now so that you can chill the hell out!" ( I really hope you caught that punn before you read this)
Devil *on earth* "Pssssttttttt im a sssssssssnake!!!! Eat from that tree to prove god wrong!"
God*to devil* "Oh no you didnt just GO there!zomg...now i have something to prove to the entire universe....."
God *to adam and eve* "ok..you guys are idiots for choosing that, you may have been perfect but jeez, seriously you fell for that? Now i have to cast you out and no longer will you live for eternity, instead you will live a life of hardship and so will your offspring.dumbasses!"
God *to devil* *roles up sleeves* "AIGHT HOMESKILLIT! you wana play this game that bad dont you? lets do it them. I bet mankind that there will be a few people that believe in me and do the right thing without direct contact, you can influence them as much as you want, you can manipulate events to your liking. You can do whatever you need to do to get the job done, i gaurantee you will fail...GG"
Devil "its on,i will get every single human being to turn against you, i will do what it takes, if i have to kill some or torture them then so be it, i will have my way. ZOMG im gonna own da face!"
later......
Some dude "God, can oyu help me man? im really hurting right now, my entire family is gone, my fortune, everything"
God "i would really like to get you out of this fix..i would...but that wouldnt prove anything, i told a guy that you will still do whats right even though he puts you through so much bs" *nodds head* "yes i know...he is an asshole, if only your ancestors would have not made the wrong decision you wouldnt have to to worry about him. sorry dude"
So that was a nice little comical sum up of the story set forth through the bible. In 1st john 5:19 it tells us "we know we originate with the true God, but the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one"
So in conclusion, biblically, god is not the cause of all the deaths, when someone dies its not because god needs another angel in heaven imo
To murderface, lets not turn this into a flamewar. yes? back up some of those facts. there is TONS of proof of a flood, science doesnt even argue the flood. Even that TONS of cultures ALL have flood stories is proof enough. But even my chemistry teacher, who is also a chemistry professor at a university gave this whole freaking lecture on how science supports the flood theory and how it didnt rain prior to a flood that precipitation and a mist helped grow the earths plant life rather than rain.
Stop opening cans of worms without backup. If you would like to backup your claims then be my guest i will backup mine.
give me that overwhelming evidence. Lets google duke this out if we must. But im sorry, science supports a flood, and also historically. I will gg you with flood proof murderface
If there was a flood big enough to ingulf all landmasses on earth in the last 6500 years then where did all the water go? Did it magicaly dissapear? How did he fit all known species on a boat constructed from wood? If a flood of that magnitude occoured there would be some geographic evidence that it did, but there is not.
Now keep in mind these are all from the old testament and aren't supposed to be practiced anymore but still this is what God expected at one point? :confused:
If there was a flood big enough to ingulf all landmasses on earth in the last 6500 years then where did all the water go? Did it magicaly dissapear? How did he fit all known species on a boat constructed from wood? If a flood of that magnitude occoured there would be some geographic evidence that it did, but there is not.
Good night.
Was it big enough to REALLY engulf the entire world? THAT is certainly debatable. But to say that because it didnt engulf the WHOLE thing then it must not be true is silly. Dont look at it as absolute. Jesus christ give it a break its thousands of years old there is room for a little scientific error.
Daemaro i think you misread ma dude.... Try geting a bible not the king james version so it will be more understandable. Forcing yourself to read it in that language has LITERALLY no point to it. Its not how it was originally written, just how it was written in that version.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
*Yawn* I just woke up, now to catch up on some events:
Quote from "Umpa65" »
L2P. I think you should read the bible if you havn't already so that you can get an understanding as to what it really teaches. Those things that happen to mankind are not because of God. God didn't will millions of people to die by any means. IF you dont know, or havn't gandered at the age old battle of good and evil in the christian terms i will help refresh you.
Devil " I can do what you do! People and Angels should praise me as they do you!"
God "No, your dumb dont try it, i promise you will fail"
Devil "Bring it SUCKA!!!!!"
God " ya..im gonna cast you down to the earth now so that you can chill the hell out!" ( I really hope you caught that punn before you read this)
Devil *on earth* "Pssssttttttt im a sssssssssnake!!!! Eat from that tree to prove god wrong!"
God*to devil* "Oh no you didnt just GO there!zomg...now i have something to prove to the entire universe....."
God *to adam and eve* "ok..you guys are idiots for choosing that, you may have been perfect but jeez, seriously you fell for that? Now i have to cast you out and no longer will you live for eternity, instead you will live a life of hardship and so will your offspring.dumbasses!"
God *to devil* *roles up sleeves* "AIGHT HOMESKILLIT! you wana play this game that bad dont you? lets do it them. I bet mankind that there will be a few people that believe in me and do the right thing without direct contact, you can influence them as much as you want, you can manipulate events to your liking. You can do whatever you need to do to get the job done, i gaurantee you will fail...GG"
Devil "its on,i will get every single human being to turn against you, i will do what it takes, if i have to kill some or torture them then so be it, i will have my way. ZOMG im gonna own da face!"
later......
Some dude "God, can oyu help me man? im really hurting right now, my entire family is gone, my fortune, everything"
God "i would really like to get you out of this fix..i would...but that wouldnt prove anything, i told a guy that you will still do whats right even though he puts you through so much bs" *nodds head* "yes i know...he is an asshole, if only your ancestors would have not made the wrong decision you wouldnt have to to worry about him. sorry dude"
So that was a nice little comical sum up of the story set forth through the bible. In 1st john 5:19 it tells us "we know we originate with the true God, but the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one"
So in conclusion, biblically, god is not the cause of all the deaths, when someone dies its not because god needs another angel in heaven imo
To murderface, lets not turn this into a flamewar. yes? back up some of those facts. there is TONS of proof of a flood, science doesnt even argue the flood. Even that TONS of cultures ALL have flood stories is proof enough. But even my chemistry teacher, who is also a chemistry professor at a university gave this whole freaking lecture on how science supports the flood theory and how it didnt rain prior to a flood that precipitation and a mist helped grow the earths plant life rather than rain.
Stop opening cans of worms without backup. If you would like to backup your claims then be my guest i will backup mine.
give me that overwhelming evidence. Lets google duke this out if we must. But im sorry, science supports a flood, and also historically. I will gg you with flood proof murderface
Yes, yes I know all about the Devil and God: 1) Lucifer, Angel of Light, believes he can be greater than God 2) Lucifer rallies up angels *Bigass war in Heaven* 3) God undeniably wins and banished Lucifer to Earth, now known as Satan 4) God creates the Garden of Eden, and the first of mankind (Adam and Eve) 5) God warns Adam who warns Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge 6) Satan (Snake) tricks Eve into eating from the Tree of Knowledge 7) Eve tricks Adam into eating from the Tree of Knowledge 8) Adam and Eve, with increased knowledge, realized that they were naked, hid from God 9) God noticed that Adam and Eve hid away from him and they said they ate from the Tree of Knowledge and Satan made them do it 10) God is getting pissed off now, he curses women with the pain of childbirth and man with the labor of work. Then banishes Satan (Snake) into Hell, which he turns into Satan (Devil)
Look at the part I highlighted. If God's divine plan is to restrict mankind's capabilities and learning, that by far is proposterous by itself. No standard of life should ever restrict man's mind whatsoever.
Now for the 'Holocaust caused by Satan' deal. Paul/Saul (I can't remember which) kills many many Christians. God comes and redeems him, setting him on a different path. If God can do this with the 'Satan bet' still in motion, then why couldn't he done it on Adolf Hitler or any other historical figure who caused terror throughout history?
Quote from "Daemaro" »
Just to be clear I just don't want to discuss evolution, it gets boring, no one changes their opinion and everyone leaves pissed.
Atheism to me is about the disbelief of religion, not the belief of evolution so I just don't feel it's relevant.
If you want to question religions though I'll be more than happy to ponder that with you all.
I found these pretty messed up parts of the bible from a video I saw a long time ago check them out if you want to and see what you think.
Now keep in mind these are all from the old testament and aren't supposed to be practiced anymore but still this is what God expected at one point? :confused:
This is the King James version by the way.
At the bolded part: Atheism is the disbelief of God and any religions pertaining to God. It's not saying that every religion is false, just that the ones aobut God are.
*Yawn* I just woke up, now to catch up on some events:
Yes, yes I know all about the Devil and God: 1) Lucifer, Angel of Light, believes he can be greater than God 2) Lucifer rallies up angels *Bigass war in Heaven* 3) God undeniably wins and banished Lucifer to Earth, now known as Satan 4) God creates the Garden of Eden, and the first of mankind (Adam and Eve) 5) God warns Adam who warns Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge 6) Satan (Snake) tricks Eve into eating from the Tree of Knowledge 7) Eve tricks Adam into eating from the Tree of Knowledge 8) Adam and Eve, with increased knowledge, realized that they were naked, hid from God 9) God noticed that Adam and Eve hid away from him and they said they ate from the Tree of Knowledge and Satan made them do it 10) God is getting pissed off now, he curses women with the pain of childbirth and man with the labor of work. Then banishes Satan (Snake) into Hell, which he turns into Satan (Devil)
Look at the part I highlighted. If God's divine plan is to restrict mankind's capabilities and learning, that by far is proposterous by itself. No standard of life should ever restrict man's mind whatsoever.
Now for the 'Holocaust caused by Satan' deal. Paul/Saul (I can't remember which) kills many many Christians. God comes and redeems him, setting him on a different path. If God can do this with the 'Satan bet' still in motion, then why couldn't he done it on Adolf Hitler or any other historical figure who caused terror throughout history?
At the bolded part: Atheism is the disbelief of God and any religions pertaining to God. It's not saying that every religion is false, just that the ones aobut God are.
i do not know
But as for linkx...that is what starts flame wars. You piss off people that actually read the bible with ignorant ass comments without knowing what your talking about.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Morality can be taught and learned through both education and religion. Both have the same aspect, it would be pointless to learn both, basically attending two English classes of the same level.
I'm confused on the idea of infability. IF we do not believe in error, then our choices have no meaning in life. Without knowledge of the positive and negative (error) then society as we know it will crumble and mankind would cease to exist. We need the belief of error to learn from mistakes. We need it to determine reality from unreality
on the last part...whats wrong with basing principles on something that may even be false if they give good results? Lets say that the bible was written by a bunch of cookes ( how do you spell that word? and i dont mean a chef either lol). So? It gives really good guidlines, i dont see its authenticity really being an issue when it comes to the ideals it gives. I dont care whether the bible is fact or fiction, regardless it is an incredible book that gives good guidelines. (i cant speak for the koran or anything, but maybe the same for it)
And here goes my rant on education. Our AMERICAN education system is GARBAGE. Probably a great one in retrospect to other countries, but all together i think they way it works is soooo flawed and wrong. It basically does this: Sets you up to try go to college, dont do ANYTHING else with your life except for go to college. If you dont goto college you FAIL at life. The increasingly demanding level of curriculum in order to try to get a step ahead to do what? go to college.
To quote my favorite legal show "what happened to the dreamers?" There is barely anything left of those pursuing goals not revolving around college because the system has narrowed down incredibly finely how they want us to learn.
Now, what happens if someone DOESNT go to college?????END OF LIFE! working dead end jobs and suffering from poverty most of your life if you dont go to college. The "system" has completely neglected so many races, it accommodates very well for white people. The environments that some grow up in and how they are raised just do not mix with our education system, so they fall through the cracks and end up working the streets, dead end jobs or being hobos essentially.
The education system has given this mindset to the nation "without a college degree you go nowhere" where as before there were more opportunities for an inventive mindset.
The values taught by the school system may give good values to get you ahead, but that is it. Its all about getting ahead in life, no matter what. No matter who's foot you have to step on. Where are the morals in that? It just makes for a money hungry grumpy bunch of people.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
A religion (enterprise) has control over beliefs (product) that you must abide in order to belong (access).
Please inform me of how the old chicken/egg argument applies here.
They did'nt know god exists, they belived someone that told them an intriuging story.
Now I will attack Christian prayer.
If god is infact infallible then why, as fallible humans, do we feel compelled to tell him how to do his job?
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
I don't think people are talking about infallible humans- I know at least in the Abrahamic religions, humans are never portrayed as infallible or perfect, the only exception being when the Christ incarnates himself as a human to take the punishment, supernatural and physical, of the human race's sins, or something along that line. Of course, the Christ incarnation only applies to Christianity as it started with the apostles (as in, Jews do not believe that the Christ came yet, and Islam views Jesus as a "Great Prophet" in the first part of the Quaran, but still human.) To my knowledge, prophets (excluding the Christ issue) are never described as innately perfect, but that the words of god that pass through them are. Not sure if I got that right, but that's how I understand it. Dunno.
Yes you have got it right. Well if you go with the disciple view. None of Jesus' disciples were perfect, put the teachings that they given through him were believed to be 'divine' and 'ture' which in my point of view is false.
Yes you have got it right. Well if you go with the disciple view. None of Jesus' disciples were perfect, put the teachings that they given through him were believed to be 'divine' and 'true'.
when do we tell him how to do his job?that is confusing.
It wasnt just an intriguing story, there were angels guarding the garden of eden. If adam and eve existed then faith did not come first, proof did. It eventually turned into faith after the flood. If you ever get a chance, take a read at the book of enoch that didnt make it into the bible barely in our modern era.It tells of a time before the flood where demons and angels had a lot of contact with humans, but after God stopped it, i wont get into why, it would be too long, you can read it yourself if you want. But if that was all true, then first there was proof, then after a few hundred years by word of mouth it would still commonly be accepted as truth, but as time went on these occurrences would still not happen, but since they knew it to be true because their great grandaddy was a seventh generation human they would create religions to maintain the word passed down for generations. According to the bible it actually started in a way with moses, sort of. but ya, the religions would not have been there to monopolize faith, ecause faith wouldnt be an issue if everyone felt it to be a true thing and not so much a matter of faith. And in turn after very long periods of time other religions would form and so on.
So with the egg thing. say the chicken is faith and the egg is religion. In your case you claim the chicken to come first, that from the VERY beginning it was still like it is today, a matter of faith. But you dont know that, you cant prove it.
And i say, the egg came before the chicken. Religion was formed to protect the truth of their existence, after hundreds, thousands of years the religions where there but no miraculous acts, so then it turned into a matter of faith.
But what of that prayer thing? im still a bit confused on that.
To magistrate. Adam and Eve were perceived to be without flaw. They were perfect. His angels were too. But perfection by our definition may not be the real one. Satan may have been perfect, but that doesnt mean he could not make imperfect decisions. He still had a will, the idea of perfection and will almost contradict themselves even.
So Satan, or Lucifer the light bearer, made an imperfect decision ( if there can be one of those)..actually, the decision cant really be defined as imperfect because it is a matter of opinion. So he made a decision that he wanted to be praised like God, so he proceeded to deceive something perfect. Something with will, with free will the humans could become imperfect by their own decisions. But this would not be a case to make God infallable if infact a persons free will cannot be defined as perfect or imperfect.
It could have all been in the plan. God could have been sitting around and decided, i want to try something...i will make these thigs called angels first, then humans, both will be perfect in every way and also have free will. Lets see what happens. I mean, you cant really put a finger on a concept like that without thinking a bit crazy.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Still replying to your other post, but this one i will reply to:
Ummmmm Holocaust, millions of people losing faith in God is one example...
Alright, take out education and the system. We are a society that is bent on learnign from religion or Christianity as this thread leads to. Now what happened in the old times where the Church and Goverment were as whole? Anyone who defied it was shunned and prosecuted AKA No chance for 'dreamers' as your post says.
Those who will only follow rules for fear of punishment now have punishment to fear.
Those who do not fear the punishment of eternal damnation should still be able to take the good from the teachings.
By praying, you are in essence telling god what to do.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Devil " I can do what you do! People and Angels should praise me as they do you!"
God "No, your dumb dont try it, i promise you will fail"
Devil "Bring it SUCKA!!!!!"
God " ya..im gonna cast you down to the earth now so that you can chill the hell out!" ( I really hope you caught that punn before you read this)
Devil *on earth* "Pssssttttttt im a sssssssssnake!!!! Eat from that tree to prove god wrong!"
God*to devil* "Oh no you didnt just GO there!zomg...now i have something to prove to the entire universe....."
God *to adam and eve* "ok..you guys are idiots for choosing that, you may have been perfect but jeez, seriously you fell for that? Now i have to cast you out and no longer will you live for eternity, instead you will live a life of hardship and so will your offspring.dumbasses!"
God *to devil* *roles up sleeves* "AIGHT HOMESKILLIT! you wana play this game that bad dont you? lets do it them. I bet mankind that there will be a few people that believe in me and do the right thing without direct contact, you can influence them as much as you want, you can manipulate events to your liking. You can do whatever you need to do to get the job done, i gaurantee you will fail...GG"
Devil "its on,i will get every single human being to turn against you, i will do what it takes, if i have to kill some or torture them then so be it, i will have my way. ZOMG im gonna own da face!"
later......
Some dude "God, can oyu help me man? im really hurting right now, my entire family is gone, my fortune, everything"
God "i would really like to get you out of this fix..i would...but that wouldnt prove anything, i told a guy that you will still do whats right even though he puts you through so much bs" *nodds head* "yes i know...he is an asshole, if only your ancestors would have not made the wrong decision you wouldnt have to to worry about him. sorry dude"
So that was a nice little comical sum up of the story set forth through the bible. In 1st john 5:19 it tells us "we know we originate with the true God, but the entire world is lying in the power of the wicked one"
So in conclusion, biblically, god is not the cause of all the deaths, when someone dies its not because god needs another angel in heaven imo
To murderface, lets not turn this into a flamewar. yes? back up some of those facts. there is TONS of proof of a flood, science doesnt even argue the flood. Even that TONS of cultures ALL have flood stories is proof enough. But even my chemistry teacher, who is also a chemistry professor at a university gave this whole freaking lecture on how science supports the flood theory and how it didnt rain prior to a flood that precipitation and a mist helped grow the earths plant life rather than rain.
Stop opening cans of worms without backup. If you would like to backup your claims then be my guest i will backup mine.
give me that overwhelming evidence. Lets google duke this out if we must. But im sorry, science supports a flood, and also historically. I will gg you with flood proof murderface
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Let's not drag evolution into all this. It always gets nasty after that.
Which is exactly why I don't pray really. Even though the bible says to I feel like it's bothering God with my bitching and he has better things to do. (kind of feels like the art debate! sorry I had to).
Good night.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
Atheism to me is about the disbelief of religion, not the belief of evolution so I just don't feel it's relevant.
If you want to question religions though I'll be more than happy to ponder that with you all.
I found these pretty messed up parts of the bible from a video I saw a long time ago check them out if you want to and see what you think.
Verse 6-9
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvDeut.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=13&division=div1
God tells you to kill anyone who asks you to believe in a false god.
Verse 9
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvPsal.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=137&division=div1
God tells you that smashing children against rocks makes you happy.
Verse 17-18
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvNumb.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=31&division=div1
God tells you to kill all of the people except the little girls. Keep them for yourself.
Verse 22
http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvNumb.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=23&division=div1
The bible just referenced unicorns... wtf?
Now keep in mind these are all from the old testament and aren't supposed to be practiced anymore but still this is what God expected at one point? :confused:
This is the King James version by the way.
Was it big enough to REALLY engulf the entire world? THAT is certainly debatable. But to say that because it didnt engulf the WHOLE thing then it must not be true is silly. Dont look at it as absolute. Jesus christ give it a break its thousands of years old there is room for a little scientific error.
Daemaro i think you misread ma dude.... Try geting a bible not the king james version so it will be more understandable. Forcing yourself to read it in that language has LITERALLY no point to it. Its not how it was originally written, just how it was written in that version.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
You can't say if everything in it is God's word.
Did you know that if you rape a girl and get her pregnant then she has to marry you?
Oh yes. The "holy" bible is so loving to the female gender...
"Imma rape yo ass and make you preggo biatch! Then imma marry youze az da GOOD BOOK sayz!"
Sorry, I just find it hysterical.
Even for the bible, that's messed up...
Yes, yes I know all about the Devil and God:
1) Lucifer, Angel of Light, believes he can be greater than God
2) Lucifer rallies up angels *Bigass war in Heaven*
3) God undeniably wins and banished Lucifer to Earth, now known as Satan
4) God creates the Garden of Eden, and the first of mankind (Adam and Eve)
5) God warns Adam who warns Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge
6) Satan (Snake) tricks Eve into eating from the Tree of Knowledge
7) Eve tricks Adam into eating from the Tree of Knowledge
8) Adam and Eve, with increased knowledge, realized that they were naked, hid from God
9) God noticed that Adam and Eve hid away from him and they said they ate from the Tree of Knowledge and Satan made them do it
10) God is getting pissed off now, he curses women with the pain of childbirth and man with the labor of work. Then banishes Satan (Snake) into Hell, which he turns into Satan (Devil)
Look at the part I highlighted. If God's divine plan is to restrict mankind's capabilities and learning, that by far is proposterous by itself. No standard of life should ever restrict man's mind whatsoever.
Now for the 'Holocaust caused by Satan' deal. Paul/Saul (I can't remember which) kills many many Christians. God comes and redeems him, setting him on a different path. If God can do this with the 'Satan bet' still in motion, then why couldn't he done it on Adolf Hitler or any other historical figure who caused terror throughout history?
At the bolded part: Atheism is the disbelief of God and any religions pertaining to God. It's not saying that every religion is false, just that the ones aobut God are.
i do not know
But as for linkx...that is what starts flame wars. You piss off people that actually read the bible with ignorant ass comments without knowing what your talking about.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged