You only think this way because you are a strong supporter of war, and your family had marines- do you think you really want to amdit loved ones are fighting for a lost cause? youd rather argue that fact and believe in something. Im sorry, but dont even try man- youre wrong all the way.
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Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
I dont think the war shouldve gone how it had- and I understand what everyone says- dont get me wrong- I just think it couldve happened differently- and Bush is a liar- a deciever- I hope he will get empeached, or someone who actually thinks for himself will enter office.
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Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
Ok go head show me anything that supports what you see that would make any sense what so ever. You should be fucking ashamed or related bush to hitler.
Im going to tell you all straight up, i am 15 and since I was 12 I was able to tell you liberals fucking dumb asses
Hey fuck you dude, I bet I'm alot smarter then you. Dont even start debating me about soldiers- because I have an EXTEMELY bad opinion for them, and I dont even wanna talk about it. Too many people will get pissed- and dude, you are obviously the idiot here- coming inot a message board- about 75 percent full of people you claim to be "liberal"
we're just opinioned- I dont conform to any label or anything. I dont like either politicial party to be honest- I think Independant party should have its day- someone who can balance the things democrats and republicans disagree about. But, thats fine, personally attack me, and while youre doing it, why dont you pull your head out of your ass so you can see to be ACCURATE.
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Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
i wouldnt start swearing again, diablO, no matter how wrong this guy is. Hes just 15 and doesnt know shit yet, so lets just calm down about him and simply ignore him/let him read and learn.
But on his post, i'd like to make some comparisons to show if its right or not to compare Bush with Hitler and which the countries are that train and harbor terrorists. Lets get started!
point 1:
a) Germany before WWII started attacking countries because they simply could and it suited their world domination plans. Hitler did lead this effort.
the United States throughout the last decade (or more) started attacking countries because they could (Yugoslavia) and because it suited their plans for world (economical) domination (Iraq). Bush did and does lead this effort.
Any similarities anyone?
point 2:
a) In Afghanistan, there were Al Queida (sorry if i spelled it wrong) camps and armies of Talibans, some of which did take part on the 9/11 attack on the WTC which was the biggest attack on american soil after Pearl Harbor.
Iraq was supposed to have a large arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that was never found. Only thing they found was Saddam hidden in a hole in the ground.
The leader of Al Queida (again sorry if i spelled it wrong) Osama Bin Laden, was trained by the CIA to cause trouble to the Soviet Union. His Talibans were also financed by US Government (watch Fahrenheit 9/11 for proof).
Saddam [the cruel dictator of Iraq and the one to train terrorists (?) and threaten the world (?)] was also trained by the CIA and set to rule over Iraq since he was no communist (!?).
Now, does this make the US as the main country to train and finance terrorists throughout the globe? Cause theres no other "country" that actually financed known terrorists or dictators/tyrants (say it how you want it).
there are certain requirements to join the EU and Turkey has done nothing about their commitments. Its not like we dont want them to join, its just there are rules. None can simply walk in without respecting what keeps the EU together. Turkey is a bad neighbor, sending planes into our (the Greek) territory on a daily basis, which ofc we hunt back with our air force. They also dont recognise Cyprus as a country, which is an outrage if they want to join an alliance in which Cyprus is a full member.
I stil don't fully understand the Cyprus issue as much as I'd like. From what I've read about it though, it does sound like Turkey has been for that unfair about it. Perhaps you could fill me in on some of the details of that.
But didn't Turkey abolish their death penalty? That's a rather huge step it seems to me. In the end, I believe they will admit Turkey into the EU cause it will be good for their economy for one thing. And I believe the EU likes money just as much as the U.S.
i wouldnt start swearing again, diablO, no matter how wrong this guy is. Hes just 15 and doesnt know shit yet, so lets just calm down about him and simply ignore him/let him read and learn.
But on his post, i'd like to make some comparisons to show if its right or not to compare Bush with Hitler and which the countries are that train and harbor terrorists. Lets get started!
point 1:
a) Germany before WWII started attacking countries because they simply could and it suited their world domination plans. Hitler did lead this effort.
the United States throughout the last decade (or more) started attacking countries because they could (Yugoslavia) and because it suited their plans for world (economical) domination (Iraq). Bush did and does lead this effort.
Any similarities anyone?
point 2:
a) In Afghanistan, there were Al Queida (sorry if i spelled it wrong) camps and armies of Talibans, some of which did take part on the 9/11 attack on the WTC which was the biggest attack on american soil after Pearl Harbor.
Iraq was supposed to have a large arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that was never found. Only thing they found was Saddam hidden in a hole in the ground.
The leader of Al Queida (again sorry if i spelled it wrong) Osama Bin Laden, was trained by the CIA to cause trouble to the Soviet Union. His Talibans were also financed by US Government (watch Fahrenheit 9/11 for proof).
Saddam [the cruel dictator of Iraq and the one to train terrorists (?) and threaten the world (?)] was also trained by the CIA and set to rule over Iraq since he was no communist (!?).
Now, does this make the US as the main country to train and finance terrorists throughout the globe? Cause theres no other "country" that actually financed known terrorists or dictators/tyrants (say it how you want it).
yeah I realize he's Fifteen- so am I though. I look and act alot older then that little kid though. I know it. But anyway, my point was- is that he has no right to sit there and basically call 3 quarters of this website names.
And, Hitler and Bush, and Stalin, and Lenin, and Mussolini all share striking similarities- and for the record the Attack on pearl harbor wasnt real US soil- it was hawaii
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Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
I'll say for the record first that I rather despise Bush and almost all of his policies. I've had this conversation before though with people who directly compare Bush to Hitler and I still think it's an asinine argument to make.
You're comparing a guy who's official public policy, who's actual part of their budget it was to exterminate over six million people. And yes, I understand that many people have died because of George Bush, both directly and indirectly. But so have many others died under the orders of several world leaders today.
People will say Bush manipulated people just as Hitler did. I think manipulation can be a bad thing, but don't get it confused too much with what is simply known as clever politics. Bush knows how to play the game. The democrats play this game as well and use a certain degree of manipulation all the same.
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
point 2:
a) In Afghanistan, there were Al Queida (sorry if i spelled it wrong) camps and armies of Talibans, some of which did take part on the 9/11 attack on the WTC which was the biggest attack on american soil after Pearl Harbor.
Iraq was supposed to have a large arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that was never found. Only thing they found was Saddam hidden in a hole in the ground.
The leader of Al Queida (again sorry if i spelled it wrong) Osama Bin Laden, was trained by the CIA to cause trouble to the Soviet Union. His Talibans were also financed by US Government (watch Fahrenheit 9/11 for proof).
Saddam [the cruel dictator of Iraq and the one to train terrorists (?) and threaten the world (?)] was also trained by the CIA and set to rule over Iraq since he was no communist (!?).
Now, does this make the US as the main country to train and finance terrorists throughout the globe? Cause theres no other "country" that actually financed known terrorists or dictators/tyrants (say it how you want it).
I'm uncertain of this strategy of yours to go from comparing Bush to Hitler, then talking about which country harbors terrorists which you say is the U.S. That I find vaguely manipulative.
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
Lets get started!
Your zeal reminds me of the disturbing trend among many Europeans these days to demonstrate to the U.S. their moral superiority. What is it about the U.S. that the Europeans just love bashing us so bad for?
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
Any similarities anyone?
Sure, there are simlilarities. But you fail to provide any modern context on the situations today. You're taking things from the past and saying, "See, I can vaguely compare these things together and it thus proves my point of how it is fair to directly compare Hitler to Bush."
I stil don't fully understand the Cyprus issue as much as I'd like. From what I've read about it though, it does sound like Turkey has been for that unfair about it. Perhaps you could fill me in on some of the details of that.
about the situation in Cyprus atm my country has some fault. See, Cyprus used to be a country of its own. By the time of the invasion, there was dictatorship in my country. The people there planned to have another dictatorship in Cyprus (might be somehow wrong, its not something we read about in history, just what i read around) to overthrow their current leadership aiming to unite the isle with Greece (that was the fault of my own country). There were both Greek-Cypriots and Turk-Cypriots in there that lived in relative harmony. After they attempted to do that Turkey simply invaded and occupied half the island. From that time the turkish side of the island, the north part, isnt a real country since its the turkish military that has control over it. Southern Cyprus isnt the same thing, though. Any greek troops that were there left and the Cypriots kept their country themselves (as they should). Now the problem is that Turkey wants the northern part to be recognized as a country while they dont do the same for the southern. Problem is the island is divided in half and people left their homes in both sides. Letting the cypriots from both sides to unite their country and live together again would be the best solution to me, but again its not up to decide what to do. Southern Cyprus has a solid economy and i think that the turk-cypriots would benefit from it too. Only time will show what will happen, though.
the post ur referring to was mainly to reply to the bush/war fan before that simply said that those countries (Afghanistan/Iraq) trained and harbored terrorists all the way and that Bush cant be compared with Hitler. Ofc they're not the exact same, none could be. But there are similarities. See, Bush isnt as open as Hitler was and hes not planning on a nations annihilation. He just wants to have more money for himself (Fahrenheit 9/11 for more info on it too) and doesnt care if people, from his own country or another, die for it as long as he gets what he wants. Hitler did the exact same for completely different reasons. What we compare are characters, not historical background.
Your zeal reminds me of the disturbing trend among many Europeans these days to demonstrate to the U.S. their moral superiority. What is it about the U.S. that the Europeans just love bashing us so bad for?
first let me say i know that many if not most major war crimes were committed by europeans. The crusades, the inquisition and the holocaust are things people from all europe should be ashamed, no matter if we're not from Germany or say Italy cause they were allied at the time. It affected all Europe and we didnt manage to prevent it. So much about "moral superiority". What i'm trying to do is help prevent doing the same mistakes that lead to war and unnecessary casualties mostly between innocent people. I dont blame anyone, i just try to inform.
I'm uncertain of this strategy of yours to go from comparing Bush to Hitler, then talking about which country harbors terrorists which you say is the U.S. That I find vaguely manipulative.
as mentioned before, there were 2 "points" of the 15 year old ignorant that i wanted to "overthrow". Playing a bit with paralogue aswell there. How a country trains someone to be a problem for their adversaries and then the problem becomes their own. Or not...
Yeah, well don't get me wrong either. That kid was definitely a douche bag who was intentionally trying to dick up this thread.
As far as Cyprus, I'm gonna study that more because I know that is one of the biggest issues keeping Turkey out the EU right now. I just with the EU would work harder on a compromise of some sort with Turkey because I honestly believe they need Turkey more than Turkey needs the EU. Not that Turkey doesn't believe they would benefit greatly from being a member. They really do believe that. But they've also done fairly well as a single country of their own despite mostly internal domest problems.
But as far as comparing Hitler to Bush, even the most radical liberals here in the U.S. admit it's a stretch. And when people really try to say how Hitler and Bush were no different and they use examples on how, well I would just say then you can probably compare tons of world leaders to Hitler if you use that method, so why don't they? And to pursue it, in my opinion, just makes their credibility go down the drain.
about Turkey and the EU, i agree with you that it would be better for the EU, Turkey and the balance of the region to have them join. But again, there are still territorial issues between them and us aswell, as some of their commitments they havent fulfilled.
i know its bit too much to directly compare Hitler to Bush. What i wanted to show is there are some similarities. But there are some big differences too, see Hitler was a very skilled politician aswell, while Bush is too dumb to do it himself. Thats why most (me included) think hes a puppet that only does whatever "some" people tell him to.
i might aswell check what happened with Cyprus to know better, the things i know are bit too blurry.
It's almost amusing right now the current position the Bush administration is in. Democrats are attempting to subpoena Karl Rove, everyone is calling for the resignation of the attorney general, and the House is attempting to attach the stipulation of having troops out in seventeen months if Bush wants is 124 billion dollars for Iraq.
But I think it's possible that the Democrats have over-reached themselves lately. Despite the new unanimously approved General Petraeus's claims that the surge seems to be have an impact, they insist on contradicting him and insisting on a deadline nonetheless.
I think if we really want to discuss deadlines, we should discuss one with Iraq's Prime Minister in reigning in his Shia militias and reaching out more to the alienated Sunni minority. The Sunnis right now are so higly volatile that its going to take more than military action to quell them. The more alienated they become, the more they'll feel they have nothing to lose and that's what makes them increasingly dangerous.
He invaded, bombed, stationed his brainwashed soldiers in the middle and outskirts of the town, probably housing them in Iraqi's homes...theres alot more t the picture we dont see due to our locations (outside of iraq) but, do you remeber like two years ago when those soldiers were charged with the betaing and rape and killing of the Iraqi civilians they were supposed to be "guarding"
Right...our troops are brainwashed. Much like flael here, I too have a brother in the Marines. And I can tell you it is far from brainwashed. The idea is for our soldiers to remain emotionally neutral. They are told their target by their superiors and they go out and do their job. Don't question the motives of our troops, because that's far from the point.
And the happenings in Abu Ghraib was not the fault of the soldiers, either. Due to a lack of proper maintenence and supervision (which is the CIA and the Bush administration's fault), in which they ordered severe methods of torture. HBO did a very good documentary on it called "Ghosts of Abu Ghraib" in which it elaborated on the events leading up to the incidents there.
Quote from "flael" »
Soilders put there life on the line to fight for their country, there are three marines in my family and im going to tell you right now, if you can't accept the fact that people die than you are crazy.
One cannot justify prolonging a war just because people die. In fact, that would only serve to hurt that argument. And saying that you have family members in the Marines does not give you a leg to stand on, persay. In fact, it impairs your ability to make an unbiased decision.
We leave, there will be a civil war and more Iraqies die. Everything we have done, with liberating Iraq will have been for nothing.
At best, our government can stall a civil war. But it is inevitable. The U.S. cannot impose a form of government that does not suit the ideology of the region, so there is no way for the insurgents to coexist without them coming to their own resolution.
The last thing im !@#@ worried about it making their sons and daughters fatherless. Militarys exist to fight, and not to drink tea and eat crackers with every man they see.
For a person who justifies war by the fact that people will die, I can see why you're not worried about breaking up families.
Suddam Hussein the old punk slaughter so many more than we ever did, and who ever we have killed has been from them resisting our help.
Who is to say that killing is helping? And no one is arguing that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people. And who is to say that we are helping by imposing a foreign form of government upon a people with a completely different ideology. Like the old and concise saying goes, "To each, his own".
Who fires back us? Certainly not the civilians, hell they want us there. I don't think you quite understand the difference between a father who is a terrorist, that only preeches what is wrong, and a civilian father who quite frankly disagree's with mr. Alkaeda
And what makes you think that this father is preaching the wrong thing? Who are you to judge? And the label of terrorist is simply a form of degradation. Who pitched the term? The U.S. Who has a beef with the insurgents? The U.S. The term terrorist is just used to scare the people, because who does the U.S. need the support of? The people. And what person isn't afraid of terror. That is propaganda right there, buddy. I don't think it is so much that our troops are brainwashed as it is you. Because you have embraced the propaganda, true or not. The insurgents consider themselves freedom fighters. And that is a term more accurate than terrorist. Because what are they fighting for? Their freedom to run their own nation.
Wow, I understand what you are saying, but doesn't mean that's a sane comment. If this is the way you see things than this means that lets say the whole world is one religion and except the US the only one with freedom of religion. They point our gun at us and say "Hey convert or die" They're military force is far superior. We could A. Fight to the death show them what we believe in. or B. "Drop our weapons, bend over" and accept the religion. I'm going to assume you going to go with B (if that was the case ovcourse)
It's almost like get bullied by someone twice your size, let him kick your ass our show him that you don't like what hes doing and do what EVER you can to stop him.
Your analogy works against you. Because what do you think is going on there. A bigger nation is bullying a smaller, weaker nation in order to spread its ideology. If you were to fight the bigger nation that was trying to convert you, they could just as easily label you a terrorist in order to rally support for their own cause.
Everything you say is out of personal opinion im sorry but it is only true, Iraq has the longest history of supporting and harboring terrorism, google it go ahead run along and do some research outside of liberalsRus.com
Oh, and the fact that you are saying that your brothers are there, therefore, you support the war, isn't an opinion. You have been trying to justify the war. That's an opinion. Terrorism itself is a biased term, as I have already discussed.
Great joke, by the way. Liberals are us. I almost thought about cracking a smile. And the fact that there is another party keeping the conservative party in line is your government at work. Way to support your democracy.
Ok go head show me anything that supports what you see that would make any sense what so ever. You should be fucking ashamed or related bush to hitler.
Maybe if you looked up a source other than conservativesRus.com, you'd see that there are a lot of facts that give reason not to fight this war.
Oh, and what is this? You're verbally persecuting someone for having a different opinion? Once again, way to support the democracy that supports freedom of choice and speech. By the way, Hitler went to war for the purpose of killing people. He justified war for the same reason that you did. Way to go, Hitler Jr.
Don't think I'm being hostile to you because I disagree. I'm maintaining an neutral stance for the purpose of this post. I'm simply challenging your opinion to see if its sturdy. And so far, calling people on their personal opinions gives you no place to say that your opinion is fact.
Dude, Europeans bash america because tables are turning and european countries are strting to become more innovated. Im american, I dont mind the bashing whatsoever. alot of people are right about america.
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Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
Dude, Europeans bash america because tables are turning and european countries are strting to become more innovated. Im american, I dont mind the bashing whatsoever. alot of people are right about america.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by tables turning or becoming more innovated. Can you be more specific?
And yes, many criticisms about the U.S. are absolutely true, I'm certainly not disputing that. I am however disputing arguments based on the notion of "we're more moral of a nation than you are and therefore in a position to judge." This attitude somewhat comes from the socialist models of many European countries and their disdain for the U.S.'s lack of a welfare state. But I've failed to understand where else it comes from.
the first way to become a more "moral" person is to recognise and admit the mistakes of the past. There arent any saints in history (only in religion). And its always up to the one with the most power to choose if they'll be an example for everyone or a tyrant to be overthrown. The US, when it comes to foreign politics atm, it looks more like the 2nd. But since there is democracy there, i think its good to simply talk to people to see what can be corrected. Or simply explained, i do accept the opinion "we'll take advantage of everyone because we're the only superpower and theres none to oppose us" (even though i dont agree with it). But none from those that support it has the balls to say it.
what i'm doing here is to either see peoples opinions or how they see it (especially interested to listen to people that do live in the US since you really listen to completely different stories than we do about whatever happens in the Middle-East). I do have an opinion in my head ofc and an idea about "morals, ethics, politics, righteousness" etc and i'm dont think its gonna change unless i listen to something really good (i havent seen anything yet, though). But i'm really here to listen too
what i'm doing here is to either see peoples opinions or how they see it (especially interested to listen to people that do live in the US since you really listen to completely different stories than we do about whatever happens in the Middle-East). I do have an opinion in my head ofc and an idea about "morals, ethics, politics, righteousness" etc and i'm dont think its gonna change unless i listen to something really good (i havent seen anything yet, though). But i'm really here to listen too
Even within the U.S., we all listen to completely different versions of stories. This may be commonplace is most countries, but we definitely veer toward a preferred news source, one that is more in sync with our political ideologies. But the trick is to expose oneself to all sorts of sources. So you're in a better position to judge for yourself.
The particular news source I like to read is a really good one I think. It's actually the least bias newspaper I've ever read and so it's helped me get kind of cozy in the middle where moderates like to sit. That doesn't mean I won't occasionally shift to the left or right occasionally, I just think it's dangerous to be a hardcore leftist or rightist. People are too dependent on the belief systems they were raised on and refuse to take chances more often and question their beliefs. I used to be more of a liberal in my younger days with this "anything goes" attitude. But now I'm definitely more of a moderate and the only thing I tend to fall back on now is not what is more conservative or more liberal, but simply what is common sense. Sometimes both sides score points when it comes to making sense.
I wish at times people would let their guard down more when it came to their beliefs, and stopped talking for awhile and just started listening. I don't know how it is in Greece, but it's very hard around here to find people willing to listen, they all just want to talk. And their minds are concluded.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by tables turning or becoming more innovated. Can you be more specific?
And yes, many criticisms about the U.S. are absolutely true, I'm certainly not disputing that. I am however disputing arguments based on the notion of "we're more moral of a nation than you are and therefore in a position to judge." This attitude somewhat comes from the socialist models of many European countries and their disdain for the U.S.'s lack of a welfare state. But I've failed to understand where else it comes from.
Well from what I understand, germany is very quick behind us in the race industrially, and they are generally very very very peaceful people now, not so cold as they were in WW2. I was talking to my girlfriends father about germany, and he just wetn a few years back and said how wonderful it was- and how nice the people were- but they all had a precise way they do something- a tradition, if you will. But, alot of European countries are quickly catching up to the US- and I know it may not seem like it do to products but look at China- thats where we get all our things from. Only a few thousand thing are made in the US whereas MILLIONS are from China, Britain, Germany, Hell, I even see Irish made products. Plus, (aside from france) people in other countries DO live more morally than we do. They stick to tradition, whereas the US throws aside tradition mostly- out country is full of fat slobs- btw Im not trying to insult anyone who may be overweight- I am considered to be overwieght myself- even though its by muscle mass = D but yeah, Our country is full of fat people who are fake and critical these days. Theres a few thousand genuine real people- the rest are fake, and caught up in media. The British, Russian, Chinese- they are very moral and very very traditional- and they may be rude soemtimes, but mainly they are very adequate people. I'm just saying, The US is starting to slouch- my first blame would be Bush.
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Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
I wish at times people would let their guard down more when it came to their beliefs, and stopped talking for awhile and just started listening. I don't know how it is in Greece, but it's very hard around here to find people willing to listen, they all just want to talk. And their minds are concluded.
thats the same everywhere i'm afraid. u have to search to find people that are willing to listen or "lead" the conversation in a way where they have to listen too. What i usually do is letting them talk first. It doesnt really matter who talks first in a debate. Its more important who talks last
Stars aligning fragments of the memories
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
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do you think you really want to amdit loved ones are fighting for a lost cause?
youd rather argue that fact and believe in something.
Im sorry, but dont even try man- youre wrong all the way.
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
Hey fuck you dude, I bet I'm alot smarter then you. Dont even start debating me about soldiers- because I have an EXTEMELY bad opinion for them, and I dont even wanna talk about it. Too many people will get pissed- and dude, you are obviously the idiot here- coming inot a message board- about 75 percent full of people you claim to be "liberal"
we're just opinioned- I dont conform to any label or anything. I dont like either politicial party to be honest- I think Independant party should have its day- someone who can balance the things democrats and republicans disagree about. But, thats fine, personally attack me, and while youre doing it, why dont you pull your head out of your ass so you can see to be ACCURATE.
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
But on his post, i'd like to make some comparisons to show if its right or not to compare Bush with Hitler and which the countries are that train and harbor terrorists. Lets get started!
point 1:
a) Germany before WWII started attacking countries because they simply could and it suited their world domination plans. Hitler did lead this effort.
the United States throughout the last decade (or more) started attacking countries because they could (Yugoslavia) and because it suited their plans for world (economical) domination (Iraq). Bush did and does lead this effort.
Any similarities anyone?
point 2:
a) In Afghanistan, there were Al Queida (sorry if i spelled it wrong) camps and armies of Talibans, some of which did take part on the 9/11 attack on the WTC which was the biggest attack on american soil after Pearl Harbor.
Iraq was supposed to have a large arsenal of weapons of mass destruction that was never found. Only thing they found was Saddam hidden in a hole in the ground.
The leader of Al Queida (again sorry if i spelled it wrong) Osama Bin Laden, was trained by the CIA to cause trouble to the Soviet Union. His Talibans were also financed by US Government (watch Fahrenheit 9/11 for proof).
Saddam [the cruel dictator of Iraq and the one to train terrorists (?) and threaten the world (?)] was also trained by the CIA and set to rule over Iraq since he was no communist (!?).
Now, does this make the US as the main country to train and finance terrorists throughout the globe? Cause theres no other "country" that actually financed known terrorists or dictators/tyrants (say it how you want it).
I stil don't fully understand the Cyprus issue as much as I'd like. From what I've read about it though, it does sound like Turkey has been for that unfair about it. Perhaps you could fill me in on some of the details of that.
But didn't Turkey abolish their death penalty? That's a rather huge step it seems to me. In the end, I believe they will admit Turkey into the EU cause it will be good for their economy for one thing. And I believe the EU likes money just as much as the U.S.
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yeah I realize he's Fifteen- so am I though. I look and act alot older then that little kid though. I know it. But anyway, my point was- is that he has no right to sit there and basically call 3 quarters of this website names.
And, Hitler and Bush, and Stalin, and Lenin, and Mussolini all share striking similarities- and for the record the Attack on pearl harbor wasnt real US soil- it was hawaii
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
You're comparing a guy who's official public policy, who's actual part of their budget it was to exterminate over six million people. And yes, I understand that many people have died because of George Bush, both directly and indirectly. But so have many others died under the orders of several world leaders today.
People will say Bush manipulated people just as Hitler did. I think manipulation can be a bad thing, but don't get it confused too much with what is simply known as clever politics. Bush knows how to play the game. The democrats play this game as well and use a certain degree of manipulation all the same.
I'm uncertain of this strategy of yours to go from comparing Bush to Hitler, then talking about which country harbors terrorists which you say is the U.S. That I find vaguely manipulative.
Your zeal reminds me of the disturbing trend among many Europeans these days to demonstrate to the U.S. their moral superiority. What is it about the U.S. that the Europeans just love bashing us so bad for?
Sure, there are simlilarities. But you fail to provide any modern context on the situations today. You're taking things from the past and saying, "See, I can vaguely compare these things together and it thus proves my point of how it is fair to directly compare Hitler to Bush."
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about the situation in Cyprus atm my country has some fault. See, Cyprus used to be a country of its own. By the time of the invasion, there was dictatorship in my country. The people there planned to have another dictatorship in Cyprus (might be somehow wrong, its not something we read about in history, just what i read around) to overthrow their current leadership aiming to unite the isle with Greece (that was the fault of my own country). There were both Greek-Cypriots and Turk-Cypriots in there that lived in relative harmony. After they attempted to do that Turkey simply invaded and occupied half the island. From that time the turkish side of the island, the north part, isnt a real country since its the turkish military that has control over it. Southern Cyprus isnt the same thing, though. Any greek troops that were there left and the Cypriots kept their country themselves (as they should). Now the problem is that Turkey wants the northern part to be recognized as a country while they dont do the same for the southern. Problem is the island is divided in half and people left their homes in both sides. Letting the cypriots from both sides to unite their country and live together again would be the best solution to me, but again its not up to decide what to do. Southern Cyprus has a solid economy and i think that the turk-cypriots would benefit from it too. Only time will show what will happen, though.
first let me say i know that many if not most major war crimes were committed by europeans. The crusades, the inquisition and the holocaust are things people from all europe should be ashamed, no matter if we're not from Germany or say Italy cause they were allied at the time. It affected all Europe and we didnt manage to prevent it. So much about "moral superiority". What i'm trying to do is help prevent doing the same mistakes that lead to war and unnecessary casualties mostly between innocent people. I dont blame anyone, i just try to inform.
as mentioned before, there were 2 "points" of the 15 year old ignorant that i wanted to "overthrow". Playing a bit with paralogue aswell there. How a country trains someone to be a problem for their adversaries and then the problem becomes their own. Or not...
As far as Cyprus, I'm gonna study that more because I know that is one of the biggest issues keeping Turkey out the EU right now. I just with the EU would work harder on a compromise of some sort with Turkey because I honestly believe they need Turkey more than Turkey needs the EU. Not that Turkey doesn't believe they would benefit greatly from being a member. They really do believe that. But they've also done fairly well as a single country of their own despite mostly internal domest problems.
But as far as comparing Hitler to Bush, even the most radical liberals here in the U.S. admit it's a stretch. And when people really try to say how Hitler and Bush were no different and they use examples on how, well I would just say then you can probably compare tons of world leaders to Hitler if you use that method, so why don't they? And to pursue it, in my opinion, just makes their credibility go down the drain.
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i know its bit too much to directly compare Hitler to Bush. What i wanted to show is there are some similarities. But there are some big differences too, see Hitler was a very skilled politician aswell, while Bush is too dumb to do it himself. Thats why most (me included) think hes a puppet that only does whatever "some" people tell him to.
i might aswell check what happened with Cyprus to know better, the things i know are bit too blurry.
But I think it's possible that the Democrats have over-reached themselves lately. Despite the new unanimously approved General Petraeus's claims that the surge seems to be have an impact, they insist on contradicting him and insisting on a deadline nonetheless.
I think if we really want to discuss deadlines, we should discuss one with Iraq's Prime Minister in reigning in his Shia militias and reaching out more to the alienated Sunni minority. The Sunnis right now are so higly volatile that its going to take more than military action to quell them. The more alienated they become, the more they'll feel they have nothing to lose and that's what makes them increasingly dangerous.
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Right...our troops are brainwashed. Much like flael here, I too have a brother in the Marines. And I can tell you it is far from brainwashed. The idea is for our soldiers to remain emotionally neutral. They are told their target by their superiors and they go out and do their job. Don't question the motives of our troops, because that's far from the point.
And the happenings in Abu Ghraib was not the fault of the soldiers, either. Due to a lack of proper maintenence and supervision (which is the CIA and the Bush administration's fault), in which they ordered severe methods of torture. HBO did a very good documentary on it called "Ghosts of Abu Ghraib" in which it elaborated on the events leading up to the incidents there.
One cannot justify prolonging a war just because people die. In fact, that would only serve to hurt that argument. And saying that you have family members in the Marines does not give you a leg to stand on, persay. In fact, it impairs your ability to make an unbiased decision.
At best, our government can stall a civil war. But it is inevitable. The U.S. cannot impose a form of government that does not suit the ideology of the region, so there is no way for the insurgents to coexist without them coming to their own resolution.
For a person who justifies war by the fact that people will die, I can see why you're not worried about breaking up families.
Who is to say that killing is helping? And no one is arguing that Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of people. And who is to say that we are helping by imposing a foreign form of government upon a people with a completely different ideology. Like the old and concise saying goes, "To each, his own".
And what makes you think that this father is preaching the wrong thing? Who are you to judge? And the label of terrorist is simply a form of degradation. Who pitched the term? The U.S. Who has a beef with the insurgents? The U.S. The term terrorist is just used to scare the people, because who does the U.S. need the support of? The people. And what person isn't afraid of terror. That is propaganda right there, buddy. I don't think it is so much that our troops are brainwashed as it is you. Because you have embraced the propaganda, true or not. The insurgents consider themselves freedom fighters. And that is a term more accurate than terrorist. Because what are they fighting for? Their freedom to run their own nation.
Your analogy works against you. Because what do you think is going on there. A bigger nation is bullying a smaller, weaker nation in order to spread its ideology. If you were to fight the bigger nation that was trying to convert you, they could just as easily label you a terrorist in order to rally support for their own cause.
Oh, and the fact that you are saying that your brothers are there, therefore, you support the war, isn't an opinion. You have been trying to justify the war. That's an opinion. Terrorism itself is a biased term, as I have already discussed.
Great joke, by the way. Liberals are us. I almost thought about cracking a smile. And the fact that there is another party keeping the conservative party in line is your government at work. Way to support your democracy.
Maybe if you looked up a source other than conservativesRus.com, you'd see that there are a lot of facts that give reason not to fight this war.
Oh, and what is this? You're verbally persecuting someone for having a different opinion? Once again, way to support the democracy that supports freedom of choice and speech. By the way, Hitler went to war for the purpose of killing people. He justified war for the same reason that you did. Way to go, Hitler Jr.
Don't think I'm being hostile to you because I disagree. I'm maintaining an neutral stance for the purpose of this post. I'm simply challenging your opinion to see if its sturdy. And so far, calling people on their personal opinions gives you no place to say that your opinion is fact.
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by tables turning or becoming more innovated. Can you be more specific?
And yes, many criticisms about the U.S. are absolutely true, I'm certainly not disputing that. I am however disputing arguments based on the notion of "we're more moral of a nation than you are and therefore in a position to judge." This attitude somewhat comes from the socialist models of many European countries and their disdain for the U.S.'s lack of a welfare state. But I've failed to understand where else it comes from.
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what i'm doing here is to either see peoples opinions or how they see it (especially interested to listen to people that do live in the US since you really listen to completely different stories than we do about whatever happens in the Middle-East). I do have an opinion in my head ofc and an idea about "morals, ethics, politics, righteousness" etc and i'm dont think its gonna change unless i listen to something really good (i havent seen anything yet, though). But i'm really here to listen too
Even within the U.S., we all listen to completely different versions of stories. This may be commonplace is most countries, but we definitely veer toward a preferred news source, one that is more in sync with our political ideologies. But the trick is to expose oneself to all sorts of sources. So you're in a better position to judge for yourself.
The particular news source I like to read is a really good one I think. It's actually the least bias newspaper I've ever read and so it's helped me get kind of cozy in the middle where moderates like to sit. That doesn't mean I won't occasionally shift to the left or right occasionally, I just think it's dangerous to be a hardcore leftist or rightist. People are too dependent on the belief systems they were raised on and refuse to take chances more often and question their beliefs. I used to be more of a liberal in my younger days with this "anything goes" attitude. But now I'm definitely more of a moderate and the only thing I tend to fall back on now is not what is more conservative or more liberal, but simply what is common sense. Sometimes both sides score points when it comes to making sense.
I wish at times people would let their guard down more when it came to their beliefs, and stopped talking for awhile and just started listening. I don't know how it is in Greece, but it's very hard around here to find people willing to listen, they all just want to talk. And their minds are concluded.
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Well from what I understand, germany is very quick behind us in the race industrially, and they are generally very very very peaceful people now, not so cold as they were in WW2. I was talking to my girlfriends father about germany, and he just wetn a few years back and said how wonderful it was- and how nice the people were- but they all had a precise way they do something- a tradition, if you will. But, alot of European countries are quickly catching up to the US- and I know it may not seem like it do to products but look at China- thats where we get all our things from. Only a few thousand thing are made in the US whereas MILLIONS are from China, Britain, Germany, Hell, I even see Irish made products. Plus, (aside from france) people in other countries DO live more morally than we do. They stick to tradition, whereas the US throws aside tradition mostly- out country is full of fat slobs- btw Im not trying to insult anyone who may be overweight- I am considered to be overwieght myself- even though its by muscle mass = D but yeah, Our country is full of fat people who are fake and critical these days. Theres a few thousand genuine real people- the rest are fake, and caught up in media. The British, Russian, Chinese- they are very moral and very very traditional- and they may be rude soemtimes, but mainly they are very adequate people. I'm just saying, The US is starting to slouch- my first blame would be Bush.
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words
thats the same everywhere i'm afraid. u have to search to find people that are willing to listen or "lead" the conversation in a way where they have to listen too. What i usually do is letting them talk first. It doesnt really matter who talks first in a debate. Its more important who talks last
Parallel truth, awaken in translucence
Sealed by this deadened song
Sinking in toneless comatose
Come and tear my skin, fear what's within
Its massive darkness filling my world
Submerged rage writing unspoken words