Why did Diablofans turn into Battle.net forums with this shit. Honestly The hatred is too much; take that shit to the official forums so we don't have to deal with this. Fuckin' nonsense people can't even make arguments without calling each other names and bashing each other for opinions.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
I pointed out a problem, and get 6 pages of insults...but I bet your statement doesn't apply to them does it? Just the guy who wants to end your gravy train.
How long until blizzard executes people for low intelligence? I mean this has been plaguing the community for awhile now... I hope they fix it soon. It really decreases my enjoyment for games; therefore they should do it.
half their staff would be axed then... lol
This is the kind of post that always gets me. The bizarre idea that Blizzard staff is somehow less knowledgeable about their products or less intelligent than the community. I know it's the internet and so every forum poster has a PhD, plays in the NFL, has seventeen cars in their garage and owns 15 mansions and two yachts, but really ... There's a reason why the people at Blizzard have their jobs. They're good at them. Whether you agree with their decisions or not, they're still good at their jobs. That's why they have their jobs and not one of the other billion hungry mouths that applied for their job.
It's cute, and I see it a lot of the time in the StarCraft community especially, people who are completely convinced that they can balance the game better than Blizzard can, that somehow Blizzard has survived all this time and made so many games that are considered Classics while at the same time being staffed entirely by simpletons.
I don't have a problem with people playing how they want to play.
But I'd like to see some more meaningful differences between Normal-Master. At the moment it feels like we have 10 layers of difficulty but only two layers of rewards (Torment and Not-Torment).
I'm not uber-hardcore and have mostly been playing on Expert-Master, because that's the place that provides a fun challenge for my gear level. But it's a little disappointing to think that if I did play Normal, I'd probably be better off, as the killspeed increase would outweigh the lower gold/XP/drop rates. I don't particularly enjoy having to choose "play Master and enjoy the game, or faceroll Normal and get to the 'real' game (Torment) sooner".
This is just my opinion but it sounds like the logic in all of this is people failing to accept change and adapting accordingly. So no, I don't think players cheesing anything directly affects others. But the only responses to these posts will continue in a flow of butt-hurt and flaming due to difference of opinion, playstyle and inflated E-peen.
I pointed out a problem, and get 6 pages of insults...but I bet your statement doesn't apply to them does it? Just the guy who wants to end your gravy train.
You pointed out something that, at best, is a very minor problem and you did it in a highly aggressive and argumentative way. There are more posts in this thread that boil down to you insulting people who disagree with you and accusing them of farming Normal than anything remotely constructive. You've neither proposed any functional solution or even accurately identified the problem (because you cannot QUANTIFY how this alleged Normal farming is so superior).
Therefore the problem lies with you. Not us. If you think there is a problem you need to do a way better job of articulating it. Have you gathered information yourself? Maybe you could sway some people if you could put some videos together showing that you can, personally, farm 50% more legendaries per hour in Normal than in Torment.
But without that kind of quantitative data all this thread amounts to is you whining that not everyone is playing the game exactly how you think it should be and then calling them cheaters, kids, and such. Real intelligent and mature!
If you want something fixed you're going to have to at least show what is broken and why it needs to be fixed. If you cannot even quantify that Normal has better legendaries/hr than Torment then you have no position. You need facts to back up your opinion. Facts tend to lead directly to actionable points. If your first post was "I did some data collecting and I found that doing the same runs in Normal that I did in Torment 1 yielded 25% more legendaries per hour in Normal" then maybe you'd have a different response. You might have people questioning your data gathering techniques, but you would have people discussing something based on quantitative analysis of a situation.
All you've done is qualitative analysis and berate anyone who dares to disagree with you. That's hardly a good way to get people to see things your way. And, ultimately, if you believe something needs to be fixed you are trying to convince people to adopt your position on a subject.
OK, time to debunk this common lie. How everyone plays this game affects everyone else who plays it. Take for example Perma-Archon/Berserker builds, the few people who were really abusing those mechanics affected everyone when those abilities were nerfed and the ability to extend them was pretty much completely removed. What are those of us playing the way it is intended suppposed to do when they start making balance changes based around people having full sets of legendaries from cheesing through normal? So seriously, stop with the "it doesn't affect you" BS, it's not true. This game is being designed by MMO makers, they will continue to make balance changes for everyone based on the few. Most of you have probably played MMOs, can you really say you haven't been nerfed because of someone else exploiting? I'm assuming you weren't the one exploiting...and honestly with this crowd, I'm not sure that's a good assumption.
Your example is more along the lines of players exploiting a bug (I'm not saying "Perma-WotB was exploiting, ban ban ban!"). It was an unintended method of play (EDIT: we can infer this because it was fixed). The runes were probably designed with 'average' stats in mind, not considering astronomical crit-stacking etc, and likely under-tested.
People playing on unchallenging difficulties is obviously (obviously) intended. You yourself say they're MMO-makers. That MMO itself has no lock on backwards progression! By which I mean if I'm in iLevel 600 gear, it doesn't stop me from going back to Mogu-Shan vaults and utterly wrecking face, or soloing level 90 heroics, or previous expansion content. Furthermore, if it was intended that you always be pressing forward on the difficulty curve, you would never have been able to go back from nightmare to normal in the first place! If they did not intend for players to be able to ROFL-stomp old content, it is trivial to make it impossible to turn down the difficulty.
Provided that, it is also trivial to adjust the drop rate for uniques on lower difficulties, but they didn't do that either! They have to know full well, with all the experience from Diablo 2 (observing its history if not hands-on development work), and pre 2.0 Diablo 3 that many players strive to find the most efficient path of conquest, and if they're not going to close off unchallenging content, then if they want players to be 'forced' for efficiency into content that challenges them, then they have to adjust the item drop rates appropriately. They did not. Ergo, your entire premise is a fallacy; it is logically inferrable that this is, in fact, an intended method of play.
Read shaggy's post.Think about it, it's a pretty accurate description of what happened in this thread. There's a reason why not a lot of people agree with your premise right now.
I'm doing pretty fine on Master+ (probably at the same speed as I would be doing Normal), but actually getting XP, gold and who knows, maybe even getting more legendaries than those people "cheesing" the game? Depending on your concept of one-shotting, I could even say I'm one-shotting stuff on T1 (with much higher leg drop rate).
Finder keeps going on about people who defend the "normal" farming are people who do it, Like i said before, I do T4-6, T4 solo, T6 in group play.
But, my mother who plays this game, is still lvl 67 and only plays on normal. She has the stats for at least Master, but.... She wants to play the game for fun with no stress and he wants to make it harder on her for what... his own ego and because the drop rates are skewed to favor playing a lower difficulty.
This is not a problem of the players, this is a problem with game design, If you can make 10m gph on normal, but only 5m on torment 1, of course people will do Normal.
The problem with permanent berserker was EVERY barb went that route, if they didn't they were playing the game casually for fun, like a lot of people still do.
OP newsflash not everyone sits at their computer desk 20 hours a day and does nothing but piss and play Diablo.
I bet your also one of those people that was for all the BOA, no trading, crap. Another newsflash, without trading there is no way for people who don't play 20 hours a day like you most likely do to progress gear-wise into the higher difficulties.
I can play on torment, but play on master, but I also have no problem dropping that shit down to normal and running bounties, and frankly I don't care what you think about it (if you couldn't already tell). I play Diablo to slay demons, and get loot: Slaying demons being the key factor here, I play to feel over powered not have wars of attrition. So basically when I catch up to your one day play time in two weeks maybe I will move up to torment as my base level of play.
Remember this game was not made for full time gamers living in their mom's basement.Play the game and zip-it about how other people play, it's really none of your business, and it has ABSOLUTELY ZERO BEARING ON YOU!
OK, time to debunk this common lie. How everyone plays this game affects everyone else who plays it. Take for example Perma-Archon/Berserker builds, the few people who were really abusing those mechanics affected everyone when those abilities were nerfed and the ability to extend them was pretty much completely removed. What are those of us playing the way it is intended suppposed to do when they start making balance changes based around people having full sets of legendaries from cheesing through normal? So seriously, stop with the "it doesn't affect you" BS, it's not true. This game is being designed by MMO makers, they will continue to make balance changes for everyone based on the few. Most of you have probably played MMOs, can you really say you haven't been nerfed because of someone else exploiting? I'm assuming you weren't the one exploiting...and honestly with this crowd, I'm not sure that's a good assumption.
Here's your rebuttal, they make those changes for one reason: Because people like you constantly complain...
Let's take your example, Archon and Berserker. So, using a skill implemented in the game is abusing it? you raise your CC now you can keep Archon up... that is abusing it? You raise your CC now you can keep Berserker up... that is abusing it?
Firstly, if you used the skill "how it was intended" then it wouldn't matter if they changed it, so that just goes to show that you were doing the same thing everyone else was.
Secondly, there were endless threads of people complaining about how "OP" these skills were..... sounds familiar...
Thirdly, they changed these skills to promote build diversity.
Fourth, those are called B R O K E N M E C H A N I CS
Lastly, if you don't like "this crowd" take your comments to a WOW forum, because this is for Diablo.
I think people should be able to play it safe and still be able to productively progress their characters, no matter how far they've already come. Especially if they enjoy a bit of HC from time to time. It would suck butt if you were brickwalled from progressing unless you upped the difficulty to T 4-6. You'd hit a lag spike and you'd know you're auto-dead.
At the end of the day I get what I wanted out of my 40 bucks. There's no reason why someone else shouldn't get what they want out of their money, even if it's something different. It doesn't bother me none.
And the coolest shiz drops in Torment anyway. So I don't know what you want.
Why do people keep saying that the only difference between Torment and not-Torment is the exclusive legendaries? There is a huge XP and gold bonus gap between the two...
Because the XP and gold gap is only significant if you can't kill on the easier level fast enough to offset the bonus on the higher level.
e.g. Torment I = +300% XP and gold. Can you kill four times faster on Normal than Torment I? Maybe!
But the exclusive legendaries.. even if you can kill 1000x faster on Normal you'll still never see one of them.
Its funny the lengths people will go to defend broken mechanics.
If you read some of the more thought out responses (shaggy and myself), you will see that we're not defending people who do it. It is, by far the best way to farm legendaries. The problem is WHY... Torment1+ is not rewarding enough for players to do if they want legendaries, but we shouldn't punish people who only play on normal-master. Instead we should come up with solutions that actually give people the incentive to move to T1+.
Constructive feedback is nice, not just "Nerf this because people who faceroll do it"
I dont really see the problem with people doing this as it is available at the moment. I do see it as a gigantic mess though, that you can split farm bounties on normal like they do atm. Maybe make it so that higher torment lvls give more caches pr act completed, or the counter split farm one is make a greater cache at the end while all the others give a regular.
The above would also solve the fact that bounties are abominable to do alone.
So generally, buff bounties, do something to prevent split farming or atleast make an alternative to it as it is unrivaled atm.
Now, i have quite good gear myself (850k dmg 5.5mill toughness wiz unbuffed no glass canon) without a but load of split farming normal bounties, but whenver i need new rift shards, i get a group for it as it is just so much faster to do it like that.
So all in all, i am not saying remove split farming normal. im saying make an alternative that is comparable, and preferably better than the normal mode farming, as that is such an oversight on blizzards part IMO.
short version: Buff bounties, give me a better alternative in torment than silly no brain normal farming, and make bounties more worth soloing aswell as it is currently only really worth doing them split farm normal.
It's cute, and I see it a lot of the time in the StarCraft community especially, people who are completely convinced that they can balance the game better than Blizzard can, that somehow Blizzard has survived all this time and made so many games that are considered Classics while at the same time being staffed entirely by simpletons.
But I'd like to see some more meaningful differences between Normal-Master. At the moment it feels like we have 10 layers of difficulty but only two layers of rewards (Torment and Not-Torment).
I'm not uber-hardcore and have mostly been playing on Expert-Master, because that's the place that provides a fun challenge for my gear level. But it's a little disappointing to think that if I did play Normal, I'd probably be better off, as the killspeed increase would outweigh the lower gold/XP/drop rates. I don't particularly enjoy having to choose "play Master and enjoy the game, or faceroll Normal and get to the 'real' game (Torment) sooner".
Therefore the problem lies with you. Not us. If you think there is a problem you need to do a way better job of articulating it. Have you gathered information yourself? Maybe you could sway some people if you could put some videos together showing that you can, personally, farm 50% more legendaries per hour in Normal than in Torment.
But without that kind of quantitative data all this thread amounts to is you whining that not everyone is playing the game exactly how you think it should be and then calling them cheaters, kids, and such. Real intelligent and mature!
If you want something fixed you're going to have to at least show what is broken and why it needs to be fixed. If you cannot even quantify that Normal has better legendaries/hr than Torment then you have no position. You need facts to back up your opinion. Facts tend to lead directly to actionable points. If your first post was "I did some data collecting and I found that doing the same runs in Normal that I did in Torment 1 yielded 25% more legendaries per hour in Normal" then maybe you'd have a different response. You might have people questioning your data gathering techniques, but you would have people discussing something based on quantitative analysis of a situation.
All you've done is qualitative analysis and berate anyone who dares to disagree with you. That's hardly a good way to get people to see things your way. And, ultimately, if you believe something needs to be fixed you are trying to convince people to adopt your position on a subject.
People playing on unchallenging difficulties is obviously (obviously) intended. You yourself say they're MMO-makers. That MMO itself has no lock on backwards progression! By which I mean if I'm in iLevel 600 gear, it doesn't stop me from going back to Mogu-Shan vaults and utterly wrecking face, or soloing level 90 heroics, or previous expansion content. Furthermore, if it was intended that you always be pressing forward on the difficulty curve, you would never have been able to go back from nightmare to normal in the first place! If they did not intend for players to be able to ROFL-stomp old content, it is trivial to make it impossible to turn down the difficulty.
Provided that, it is also trivial to adjust the drop rate for uniques on lower difficulties, but they didn't do that either! They have to know full well, with all the experience from Diablo 2 (observing its history if not hands-on development work), and pre 2.0 Diablo 3 that many players strive to find the most efficient path of conquest, and if they're not going to close off unchallenging content, then if they want players to be 'forced' for efficiency into content that challenges them, then they have to adjust the item drop rates appropriately. They did not. Ergo, your entire premise is a fallacy; it is logically inferrable that this is, in fact, an intended method of play.
I'm doing pretty fine on Master+ (probably at the same speed as I would be doing Normal), but actually getting XP, gold and who knows, maybe even getting more legendaries than those people "cheesing" the game? Depending on your concept of one-shotting, I could even say I'm one-shotting stuff on T1 (with much higher leg drop rate).
But, my mother who plays this game, is still lvl 67 and only plays on normal. She has the stats for at least Master, but.... She wants to play the game for fun with no stress and he wants to make it harder on her for what... his own ego and because the drop rates are skewed to favor playing a lower difficulty.
This is not a problem of the players, this is a problem with game design, If you can make 10m gph on normal, but only 5m on torment 1, of course people will do Normal.
The problem with permanent berserker was EVERY barb went that route, if they didn't they were playing the game casually for fun, like a lot of people still do.
I bet your also one of those people that was for all the BOA, no trading, crap. Another newsflash, without trading there is no way for people who don't play 20 hours a day like you most likely do to progress gear-wise into the higher difficulties.
I can play on torment, but play on master, but I also have no problem dropping that shit down to normal and running bounties, and frankly I don't care what you think about it (if you couldn't already tell). I play Diablo to slay demons, and get loot: Slaying demons being the key factor here, I play to feel over powered not have wars of attrition. So basically when I catch up to your one day play time in two weeks maybe I will move up to torment as my base level of play.
Remember this game was not made for full time gamers living in their mom's basement.Play the game and zip-it about how other people play, it's really none of your business, and it has ABSOLUTELY ZERO BEARING ON YOU!
Let's take your example, Archon and Berserker. So, using a skill implemented in the game is abusing it? you raise your CC now you can keep Archon up... that is abusing it? You raise your CC now you can keep Berserker up... that is abusing it?
Firstly, if you used the skill "how it was intended" then it wouldn't matter if they changed it, so that just goes to show that you were doing the same thing everyone else was.
Secondly, there were endless threads of people complaining about how "OP" these skills were..... sounds familiar...
Thirdly, they changed these skills to promote build diversity.
Fourth, those are called B R O K E N M E C H A N I CS
Lastly, if you don't like "this crowd" take your comments to a WOW forum, because this is for Diablo.
I think people should be able to play it safe and still be able to productively progress their characters, no matter how far they've already come. Especially if they enjoy a bit of HC from time to time. It would suck butt if you were brickwalled from progressing unless you upped the difficulty to T 4-6. You'd hit a lag spike and you'd know you're auto-dead.
At the end of the day I get what I wanted out of my 40 bucks. There's no reason why someone else shouldn't get what they want out of their money, even if it's something different. It doesn't bother me none.
And the coolest shiz drops in Torment anyway. So I don't know what you want.
If people wish to tweak difficulty in order to allow themselves to better handle a higher difficulty at a later date, why is that a problem?
Farming gear is integral. Optimisation for farming efficiency and speed has always been a thing in Diablo.
e.g. Torment I = +300% XP and gold. Can you kill four times faster on Normal than Torment I? Maybe!
But the exclusive legendaries.. even if you can kill 1000x faster on Normal you'll still never see one of them.
Constructive feedback is nice, not just "Nerf this because people who faceroll do it"
/boggle
Doesn't affect you. Move on.
The above would also solve the fact that bounties are abominable to do alone.
So generally, buff bounties, do something to prevent split farming or atleast make an alternative to it as it is unrivaled atm.
Now, i have quite good gear myself (850k dmg 5.5mill toughness wiz unbuffed no glass canon) without a but load of split farming normal bounties, but whenver i need new rift shards, i get a group for it as it is just so much faster to do it like that.
So all in all, i am not saying remove split farming normal. im saying make an alternative that is comparable, and preferably better than the normal mode farming, as that is such an oversight on blizzards part IMO.
short version: Buff bounties, give me a better alternative in torment than silly no brain normal farming, and make bounties more worth soloing aswell as it is currently only really worth doing them split farm normal.