Eh...what?... Been playing WoW since the first day until recent times, and I can tell you that there is no diversity when it comes to builds and items. Sure, you have some very mediocre crap settings you can use before you get the tier sets, but after that there is close to no choices anymore. One build will allways be clearly stronger than the rest for each class (I give druids credits for diversity tho), and when it comes to items.. don't get me started. The items in WoW are interesting? Uhm ok..? The legendary cloak.. was that fun? The ring.. was that fun? No, those were items which gave little back. Other than that there might be some other unmentioned social items, but that does not serve any use.
Items in D3 is by far more interesting than WoW, so the situation is no way near as bad as you claim it to be. The only bad thing about D3 is it's community, which is filled with people thinking they are game experts and who does not see the double-moral here when they want diversity and still uses the "BIS" items instead of focusing on having fun.
If you want someone to blame for the troubles of D3, blame yourself(es).
We got your point Shurgosa. It's just not interesting in the present discussion, as you are asking for a different game entirely. Here, we are talking about a new type of affix and its immediate consequence on diablo 3's current iteration of patch 2.4. We are not talking about what Diablo 3 could have been, or failed to be.
Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
We got your point Shurgosa. It's just not interesting in the present discussion, as you are asking for a different game entirely. Here, we are talking about a new type of affix and its immediate consequence on diablo 3's current iteration of patch 2.4. We are not talking about what Diablo 3 could have been, or failed to be.
Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
I don't mean to advocate what's going on this topic but WoW is actually the best example for comparison that you can make because the game went through something similar when they shut down cookie cutter builds which is one of the reasons mentioned by Mr Cheng.
NO! You can not compare those games. Those 3 are PVP games. D3 is not a PVP game. That's a HUGE difference.
PvP has an ever shifting metagame (as long as balance is not utter shit). When the meta is A then people will try to counter it with B, which gets countered by C, which gets countered by A again. And so on. D3 is a PvE game! There are no counters! It's like WoW raiding but without the predefined specs with their predefined dps rotations and their predefined dropped equip. And this is also the reason why balance is way harder in D3 than in WoW pve. The reason why there are mostly no predefined raid compositions is simply that balancing WoW is IMMENSLY easier. And I say mostly because in times where balance was not that good, there WERE those best raidgrps!
Yeah comparing diff genres is not valid. You edit where you were saying that the game is flawed ^^. Even if some1 dont use the TOPbuild in a dpser, for example, its not like TOPbuild hit 5billion and ur damnnbbuild hit 100m. There is no difference like that in wow.
Because you don't have the freedom in WoW that you have in D3.
Are you sure about this ? Really ?
"NO! You can not compare those games" xD
... are you for real? you quote my "you can't compare them" and my explanation why you can't compare them and you don't get the connection?
"Because you don't have the freedom in WoW that you have in D3"
That's one way they did it but not the biggest impact. The major impact came from the talent tree changes near the tail end of cataclysm. This allowed them to actually balance out all of the classes so that any spec was viable for competitive play. Cookie cutter builds by definition was not necessarily the hybrid builds. It was the talent system that allowed you to do that. Cookie cutter builds were called cookie cutter because (for example) one person on elitist jerks would post it and then everyone would use the same build because it was posted by someone in a top world guild. lol get it? Same shape every time? Cookie cutter? Nobody want's to play a game that has so many choices but you can only play one and be competitive. That's not very fun competition. But that is only my personal opinion. Some people like simple competition, but I don't. My view on it is that when the leader board for solo is filled with all one spec and one spec only that's simple competition versus what the leaderboards for most of the classes look like now on the ptr.
I'm not implying anything. Only stating what I already did in response to something someone else said about WoW not being a good comparison. Do you think I'm trying to imply something?
It's funny because if grifts never existed this wouldn't even be a topic. Give people something to epeen about in ARPG and you get more crying, go figure. I would bring up how this game is many times better than D2 but people will just say that game is too old to compare to so I'll leave it at that.
We got your point Shurgosa. It's just not interesting in the present discussion, as you are asking for a different game entirely. Here, we are talking about a new type of affix and its immediate consequence on diablo 3's current iteration of patch 2.4. We are not talking about what Diablo 3 could have been, or failed to be.
Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
That is correct. Thank you. We are talking about a new affix (the boost to % damage..) and its immediate consequence on D3 as of 2.4
we are not talking about what possibly could be or failed to be. That is the issue. Nobody of note IS talking about that.
instead the devs take a game, D3 version 2.3, take a few items from that game and give them a new stat that boosts skill damage by 100%.
and then because before they happened to add that boost, there was basically nothing at all, they think that they have "added to the game". Or they think that having a few items that boost damage is better than just one. and that adding it is the right way to go without question.
Then when Quin comes along and points out one of several reasons why this is not correct when viewing the issue in an abstract way, nobody understands. they have already convinced themselves that 2 items that do that is an improvement over 1. then they are unable to think any further.
who in their right mind would say "don't add items that boost skill damage..." I DARE you to answer this question honestly. WHO would say "dont do it. hmm?
I'll tell you who. The person who can want more from the game. More for it than "slap some damage on an item and the players will clap and cheer in January."
That's who would say don't do it. The smart and passionate ones. The ones who look at D3 and see that it could be better, and can expand upon this notion in a multitude of ways.
Diablo 3 is made by people who say "yea put it in, and any of the concerns brought up we can just say to the players "we feel you, we get you, we understand......" and that will handle all of the sloppy remainder of our careless "improvement"
That's one way they did it but not the biggest impact. The major impact came from the talent tree changes near the tail end of cataclysm. This allowed them to actually balance out all of the classes so that any spec was viable for competitive play. Cookie cutter builds by definition was not necessarily the hybrid builds. It was the talent system that allowed you to do that. Cookie cutter builds were called cookie cutter because (for example) one person on elitist jerks would post it and then everyone would use the same build because it was posted by someone in a top world guild. lol get it? Same shape every time? Cookie cutter? Nobody want's to play a game that has so many choices but you can only play one and be competitive. That's not very fun competition. But that is only my personal opinion. Some people like simple competition, but I don't. My view on it is that when the leader board for solo is filled with all one spec and one spec only that's simple competition versus what the leaderboards for most of the classes look like now on the ptr.
I'm not implying anything. Only stating what I already did in response to something someone else said about WoW not being a good comparison. Do you think I'm trying to imply something?
That's exactly what I said. They took out the possibility for builds by removing talent trees which made it possible to go hybrid ways. And the best way was always the hybrid way because there were some very powerful talents in the beginning of a tree, so you basically always went through your main tree until you have the last talent and then went on a 2nd path. And while it's true that the cookie cutter is the most used build, it's usually also the best build. There might be some hidden better way to build it and that's very likely in D3, since it has sooooo many possible builds, but it was very unlikely for WoW, since the choices there were very limited and easy to calculate.
Ironically, there is still a bit of cookie cutter left in WoW, even with the new talent system. Just today, I've read an article about how it reduces player experimentation in WoW. But the issue is very minor, since the amount of choices is small and the balance is pretty good, which again is not that hard, since they only have to balance 3 talents against each other. It's usually a 1% better/worse kind of balance.
@banishedbr
What is your problem? Troll?
This is actually reverse of what happens. You're right to a certain extent but that's not how the events play out. And it's also where the problem lies. With using wow as an example it wasn't just hybrid builds in the same sense of your previous example of frost-fire mage. It was a matter of choosing anything other than layout X makes you an idiot and every other choice can't come to raid with us. The same thing happened in season 4. Talent choices however should be on a situational basis and that will never change as long as new encounter mechanics come out (same with D3(new bosses, mobs, enemy abilities etc). I think where we are mis communicating is your stating the problem lies with one result instead of the problem being the system that caused several results that lead to one state of a game. The problem was that the talent trees made it impossible to balance the abilities themselves which lead the developers playing a constant battle of nerfing and buffing skills until they decided to just deal away with the system that caused half of the specs within a game to be very poorly represented simply because it didn't do the most damage.
Which leads us to the changes to the items we've been seeing. Diablo since day one has always tried to enforce a sense of diversity in builds as far as the skills and classes used. So you can see why there is no similar option to what happened in WoW (changing talent trees altogether). SO that leaves them with two options. They can keep repeating the same mistake they made in another game that caused a very similar problem by nerfing and buffing skills or they can change the items themselves and allow more class and set representation. The latter is the better option for everyone even though it destroys something that the top performers do on a regular basis: find the top build. In the end Quin and other builders will still be competitive with better representation of all of the classes and set. Because your skill, time and dedication as well as your build should decide who's the better player. Not whether you are playing "the right build" or not.
This is actually reverse of what happens. You're right to a certain extent but that's not how the events play out. And it's also where the problem lies. With using wow as an example it wasn't just hybrid builds in the same sense of your previous example of frost-fire mage. It was a matter of choosing anything other than layout X makes you an idiot and every other choice can't come to raid with us. The same thing happened in season 4. Talent choices however should be on a situational basis and that will never change as long as new encounter mechanics come out (same with D3(new bosses, mobs, enemy abilities etc). I think where we are mis communicating is your stating the problem lies with one result instead of the problem being the system that caused several results that lead to one state of a game. The problem was that the talent trees made it impossible to balance the abilities themselves which lead the developers playing a constant battle of nerfing and buffing skills until they decided to just deal away with the system that caused half of the specs within a game to be very poorly represented simply because it didn't do the most damage.
Which leads us to the changes to the items we've been seeing. Diablo since day one has always tried to enforce a sense of diversity in builds as far as the skills and classes used. So you can see why there is no similar option to what happened in WoW (changing talent trees altogether). SO that leaves them with two options. They can keep repeating the same mistake they made in another game that caused a very similar problem by nerfing and buffing skills or they can change the items themselves and allow more class and set representation. The latter is the better option for everyone even though it destroys something that the top performers do on a regular basis: find the top build. In the end Quin and other builders will still be competitive with better representation of all of the classes and set. Because your skill, time and dedication as well as your build should decide who's the better player. Not whether you are playing "the right build" or not.
The issue is the latter seems to be removing 90% of items/abilities from the game and have only leave the obvious choices. Then have everyone compete in Grifts because any sort of play outside of Grifts is irreverent. Might as go to the extreme and don't even have random loot just rewards at completion of grift levels (make it more like wow). Once we have stripped down to bare bones gear and abilities it will then only be about skill to compete in Grifts... wait where are we going with this, I thought this was supposed to be a fun game to kill monsters by various methods and modes... nope Diablo is and should now be an epeen competitive PvE. As a vet of the series I think this strays away from what this series has always been about; however you see a lot of these millennials talking about what the game should be and change to "get with the times". There are plenty of other games that allow you to compete in a balanced setting, the fact that Grifts were provided for some sort of measuring stick is a nice feature. Perhaps ladders should be adjusted for ranking so instead of solo wizard, how about solo channeling wizard or solo arcane orb wizard rankings.
Really this game needs PvP just add a player vs player damage/CC reduction of 90% or something absurd since were hitting for billions and let the players dictate/police standards and rules (Like D2). No balancing needed. Considering the effort going to try and balance PvE this simple little feature would add more replay value than any patch could.
This is actually reverse of what happens. You're right to a certain extent but that's not how the events play out. And it's also where the problem lies. With using wow as an example it wasn't just hybrid builds in the same sense of your previous example of frost-fire mage. It was a matter of choosing anything other than layout X makes you an idiot and every other choice can't come to raid with us. The same thing happened in season 4. Talent choices however should be on a situational basis and that will never change as long as new encounter mechanics come out (same with D3(new bosses, mobs, enemy abilities etc). I think where we are mis communicating is your stating the problem lies with one result instead of the problem being the system that caused several results that lead to one state of a game. The problem was that the talent trees made it impossible to balance the abilities themselves which lead the developers playing a constant battle of nerfing and buffing skills until they decided to just deal away with the system that caused half of the specs within a game to be very poorly represented simply because it didn't do the most damage.
Which leads us to the changes to the items we've been seeing. Diablo since day one has always tried to enforce a sense of diversity in builds as far as the skills and classes used. So you can see why there is no similar option to what happened in WoW (changing talent trees altogether). SO that leaves them with two options. They can keep repeating the same mistake they made in another game that caused a very similar problem by nerfing and buffing skills or they can change the items themselves and allow more class and set representation. The latter is the better option for everyone even though it destroys something that the top performers do on a regular basis: find the top build. In the end Quin and other builders will still be competitive with better representation of all of the classes and set. Because your skill, time and dedication as well as your build should decide who's the better player. Not whether you are playing "the right build" or not.
The issue is the latter seems to be removing 90% of items/abilities from the game and have only leave the obvious choices. Then have everyone compete in Grifts because any sort of play outside of Grifts is irreverent. Might as go to the extreme and don't even have random loot just rewards at completion of grift levels (make it more like wow). Once we have stripped down to bare bones gear and abilities it will then only be about skill to compete in Grifts... wait where are we going with this, I thought this was supposed to be a fun game to kill monsters by various methods and modes... nope Diablo is and should now be an epeen competitive PvE. As a vet of the series I think this strays away from what this series has always been about; however you see a lot of these millennials talking about what the game should be and change to "get with the times". There are plenty of other games that allow you to compete in a balanced setting, the fact that Grifts were provided for some sort of measuring stick is a nice feature. Perhaps ladders should be adjusted for ranking so instead of solo wizard, how about solo channeling wizard or solo arcane orb wizard rankings.
Really this game needs PvP just add a player vs player damage/CC reduction of 90% or something absurd since were hitting for billions and let the players dictate/police standards and rules (Like D2). No balancing needed. Considering the effort going to try and balance PvE this simple little feature would add more replay value than any patch could.
Well, the problem isn't just the competitive gameplay. It's also public games, playing with friends, clan members and community members in D3. No one will play with you or want to invite you if you aren't playing spec X, and that's bad for the game as a whole. Sorry, I neglected to mention that the problem also affected casual and non competitive play modes.
I actually thought of that for PVP. I wanted to play it with my brothers but It was so unfair. One cluster arrow and my brother was toast lol. However, I don't want PVP for the game because I've seen what it's like trying to balance a game based on two different play modes of PVP and PVE, it will never be balanced and the story of nurfing and buffing skills just starts all over again.
That's one way they did it but not the biggest impact. The major impact came from the talent tree changes near the tail end of cataclysm. This allowed them to actually balance out all of the classes so that any spec was viable for competitive play. Cookie cutter builds by definition was not necessarily the hybrid builds. It was the talent system that allowed you to do that. Cookie cutter builds were called cookie cutter because (for example) one person on elitist jerks would post it and then everyone would use the same build because it was posted by someone in a top world guild. lol get it? Same shape every time? Cookie cutter? Nobody want's to play a game that has so many choices but you can only play one and be competitive. That's not very fun competition. But that is only my personal opinion. Some people like simple competition, but I don't. My view on it is that when the leader board for solo is filled with all one spec and one spec only that's simple competition versus what the leaderboards for most of the classes look like now on the ptr.
I'm not implying anything. Only stating what I already did in response to something someone else said about WoW not being a good comparison. Do you think I'm trying to imply something?
That's exactly what I said. They took out the possibility for builds by removing talent trees which made it possible to go hybrid ways. And the best way was always the hybrid way because there were some very powerful talents in the beginning of a tree, so you basically always went through your main tree until you have the last talent and then went on a 2nd path.
And while it's true that the cookie cutter is the most used build, it's usually also the best build. There might be some hidden better way to build it and that's very likely in D3, since it has sooooo many possible builds, but it was very unlikely for WoW, since the choices there were very limited and easy to calculate.
Ironically, there is still a bit of cookie cutter left in WoW, even with the new talent system. Just today, I've read an article about how it reduces player experimentation in WoW. But the issue is very minor, since the amount of choices is small and the balance is pretty good, which again is not that hard, since they only have to balance 3 talents against each other. It's usually a 1% better/worse kind of balance.
@banishedbr
What is your problem? Troll?
This is actually reverse of what happens. You're right to a certain extent but that's not how the events play out. And it's also where the problem lies. With using wow as an example it wasn't just hybrid builds in the same sense of your previous example of frost-fire mage. It was a matter of choosing anything other than layout X makes you an idiot and every other choice can't come to raid with us. The same thing happened in season 4. Talent choices however should be on a situational basis and that will never change as long as new encounter mechanics come out (same with D3(new bosses, mobs, enemy abilities etc). I think where we are mis communicating is your stating the problem lies with one result instead of the problem being the system that caused several results that lead to one state of a game. The problem was that the talent trees made it impossible to balance the abilities themselves which lead the developers playing a constant battle of nerfing and buffing skills until they decided to just deal away with the system that caused half of the specs within a game to be very poorly represented simply because it didn't do the most damage.
Which leads us to the changes to the items we've been seeing. Diablo since day one has always tried to enforce a sense of diversity in builds as far as the skills and classes used. So you can see why there is no similar option to what happened in WoW (changing talent trees altogether). SO that leaves them with two options. They can keep repeating the same mistake they made in another game that caused a very similar problem by nerfing and buffing skills or they can change the items themselves and allow more class and set representation. The latter is the better option for everyone even though it destroys something that the top performers do on a regular basis: find the top build. In the end Quin and other builders will still be competitive with better representation of all of the classes and set. Because your skill, time and dedication as well as your build should decide who's the better player. Not whether you are playing "the right build" or not.
The issue is the latter seems to be removing 90% of items/abilities from the game and have only leave the obvious choices. Then have everyone compete in Grifts because any sort of play outside of Grifts is irreverent. Might as go to the extreme and don't even have random loot just rewards at completion of grift levels (make it more like wow). Once we have stripped down to bare bones gear and abilities it will then only be about skill to compete in Grifts... wait where are we going with this, I thought this was supposed to be a fun game to kill monsters by various methods and modes... nope Diablo is and should now be an epeen competitive PvE. As a vet of the series I think this strays away from what this series has always been about; however you see a lot of these millennials talking about what the game should be and change to "get with the times". There are plenty of other games that allow you to compete in a balanced setting, the fact that Grifts were provided for some sort of measuring stick is a nice feature. Perhaps ladders should be adjusted for ranking so instead of solo wizard, how about solo channeling wizard or solo arcane orb wizard rankings.
Really this game needs PvP just add a player vs player damage/CC reduction of 90% or something absurd since were hitting for billions and let the players dictate/police standards and rules (Like D2). No balancing needed. Considering the effort going to try and balance PvE this simple little feature would add more replay value than any patch could.
Well, the problem isn't just the competitive gameplay. It's also public games, playing with friends, clan members and community members in D3. No one will play with you or want to invite you if you aren't playing spec X, and that's bad for the game as a whole. Sorry, I neglected to mention that the problem also affected casual and non competitive play modes.
I actually thought of that for PVP. I wanted to play it with my brothers but It was so unfair. One cluster arrow and my brother was toast lol. However, I don't want PVP for the game because I've seen what it's like trying to balance a game based on two different play modes of PVP and PVE, it will never be balanced and the story of nurfing and buffing skills just starts all over again.
I don't know which would take more time to balance, this topic problem or a PVP in the current game.
This game has no PVP and if it ever would get PVP it would need to be balanced seperatly for obvious reasons.
Why? PvP wasn't balanced in D2 and it thrived, created a whole new community and made some useless PvE items worth finding. It added a lot of longevity for a game that should have died much earlier and I'm sure most would agree its better than no PvP because the current brawling mode isn't PvP. Anyways it seems I have derailed the thread off topic so sorry about bringing up PvP.
I dont think D3 is better
then D2, visual its better. But being ahead of its time like other blizzards game i dont feel that way. To me D3 was a safe bet, and not as visually stunning as i hoped it would be. Look at lost ark? that korean
arpg, thats what i expected from blizzard, being ahead and not behind.
How so? If you want to go "for its time" yes D2 is better than D3, but far as game play and what you get out of it D3 is far superior than D2. Basically if you could farm gear in hell mode in X spec then you are contributing or at least having fun doing something worthwhile. The same applies in D3 if you could farm TX in X spec the same logic applies, the issue is people think "well if I can't top GR's then X spec gear/abilities is useless". If you want the reinvent the wheel I'd start a new series not try on a series that already has an expected game play and feel from its predecessors.
Well, the problem isn't just the competitive gameplay. It's also public games, playing with friends, clan members and community members in D3. No one will play with you or want to invite you if you aren't playing spec X, and that's bad for the game as a whole. Sorry, I neglected to mention that the problem also affected casual and non competitive play
modes.
I actually thought of that for PVP. I wanted to play it with my brothers but It was so unfair. One cluster arrow and my brother was toast lol. However, I don't want PVP for the game because I've seen what it's like trying to balance a game based on two different play modes of PVP and PVE, it will never be balanced and the story of nurfing
and buffing skills just starts all over again.
I agree public games are somewhat troublesome, but from what I've seen over that years thats just a typical issue with the player base now a days (especially with blizzard games). It's all about efficiency and trolls.
As mentioned before in other threads you just need to find the right clan. Competitive Clans are going to be focused like this so I get that and have no issue if they want to take that approach. So people then play public games because they have no friends or can't stay in competitive clans (this is me in a nutshell). Part of this issue is this patch was designed to group play = win. Going forward I'm hoping solo play will be more worth while so there is a lot less concern dealing with trolls in public games. I've also found a relaxed clan where people just want to play so I recommend others running into non competitive issues to focus on that approach.
I still think if we have different ranking systems displaying people's Grift results with different specs would reduce the butthurt itemization. If there was a Grift ranking for wave of force I'd actually take the time to gather non "top BIS Grift gear" and see how far I could "chart" in that spec. I do realize then this approach would make new BIS gear for these alternative specs, but it sure would make people actually try and use different items or specs. The hope would be people would stop complaining about itemization for 2-3 items in one spec per class.
Slayerviper, I expected D3 to be a bit more scarier/exciting to get into random rooms and have "nope, turn around" moments. Visually i kinda hoped for more amazing maps, feels like most maps dont have the special touch of amazement you can expect from blizzard games.
And gameplay yes its better. but if you have do to the boring chores part to progress. its basicly playing with your mousehand only and left click and still be fine during it. And if gameplay can be done by bots so easy, means there is not much challenge if you have to use your brain.
And i really dont feel much ups and downs in emotion. I mean you find a green each few minutes. And have to clear your bag all the time of greens. Right now it feels like you fully geared in 10 hours or so after reaching 70 and then find only minor upgrades. Finding goblin pack gives you some feeling like "ok nice" feeling, but not that exciting if you can farm the same loot in 10 mins anyways. Just the loot and lack of "ohhh shit" monsters make it feel like your just driving the game on autopilot.
Maybe they should make it more random, reaching full bar in grift/rift, gives you something like a portal where you goto something like arena with slotmachine. Where you get a buff. debuff, special effect like arcane, poison map, and then random boss. And if your in a group, you get that for each player, so you get more buffs and debuffs and more bosses, to make it more chaotic and harder for bots to cheat.
We all know bots are not that great at handling arcane, poison detection and such. Make it more random so they cant handle it. And more exciting for players to do bossfights in rifts.
It went from one extreme to another. This game was terrible in vanilla with RMAH and Inferno mode, now its loot city. I always complain about the maps in D3 but everyone just told me to stfu and accept that they were "random enough". The bots isn't a good example as it was 10000000000000000000X worse in D2. I don't know why you are saying game play is so basic and boring yet saying D2 was so great. D2 was spam one button for one spell = Win. Yes its over a decade later and this game hasn't evolved that much if you consider the time span.
I've played since day one and I'll tell you its been a whole range of emotions. Things are too easy now and that won't change (the longer a series lasts for Blizzard the easier it gets to they can cater to casuals). If you really want those good feelings and oh shit moments play hardcore, that really gets you into this game on an emotional level.
The main issue is this game is just about scaling/gear check. So its not challenging to then suddenly becoming impossible. I really think you need a total re-work or new series to implement the Ai/Challenges you want. Far as an overall ARPG, this game has hit most of the notes and succeeded. I just think in terms of "game for its time" you need new genres or series. It's not like each expansion of WoW has been ground breaking and if anything has gotten worse with each patch/expansion.
I really think people just expect too much, Blizzard came out with genre defining games or at least prototype what games should be for genres back in the 90's and recently early 2000's with WoW, but they haven't released anything ground breaking in years. As mentioned in other threads Blizzard isn't close to what used to be let alone the same company. All I expect is a solid game that will get me bang for my buck. As far as game for its time, I'd look else where this company doesn't do that anymore. They just rehash what sells on the same three series they have had for twenty years. Now they mainly just focus on what genres are hot and morph them into Blizzard type games, eg. HoTS & Overwatch.
TL;DR
Off topic but this thread seems dead anyways. Blizzard doesn't "start" genres anymore they just copy whats popular and do a good job of it.
Eh...what?... Been playing WoW since the first day until recent times, and I can tell you that there is no diversity when it comes to builds and items. Sure, you have some very mediocre crap settings you can use before you get the tier sets, but after that there is close to no choices anymore. One build will allways be clearly stronger than the rest for each class (I give druids credits for diversity tho), and when it comes to items.. don't get me started. The items in WoW are interesting? Uhm ok..? The legendary cloak.. was that fun? The ring.. was that fun? No, those were items which gave little back. Other than that there might be some other unmentioned social items, but that does not serve any use.
Items in D3 is by far more interesting than WoW, so the situation is no way near as bad as you claim it to be. The only bad thing about D3 is it's community, which is filled with people thinking they are game experts and who does not see the double-moral here when they want diversity and still uses the "BIS" items instead of focusing on having fun.
If you want someone to blame for the troubles of D3, blame yourself(es).
Don't get me (us) wrong, we would like to make Diablo 3 as exciting as it could be, and we all have wild ideas on how to achieve that. But this is beyond the point here. And definitely comparing Diablo 3 to Wow is off-topic. Feel free to create your own topic on these lines, but I think we should not discuss these further here.
Whatever the itemization problems that diablo may have, the new type of affix seems to go into the right direction (assuming proper balancing). Quinn says it is not. Wyatt, and most of us here, after thinking it through, think that it is. That is all there is to it.
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That's one way they did it but not the biggest impact. The major impact came from the talent tree changes near the tail end of cataclysm. This allowed them to actually balance out all of the classes so that any spec was viable for competitive play. Cookie cutter builds by definition was not necessarily the hybrid builds. It was the talent system that allowed you to do that. Cookie cutter builds were called cookie cutter because (for example) one person on elitist jerks would post it and then everyone would use the same build because it was posted by someone in a top world guild. lol get it? Same shape every time? Cookie cutter? Nobody want's to play a game that has so many choices but you can only play one and be competitive. That's not very fun competition. But that is only my personal opinion. Some people like simple competition, but I don't. My view on it is that when the leader board for solo is filled with all one spec and one spec only that's simple competition versus what the leaderboards for most of the classes look like now on the ptr.
I'm not implying anything. Only stating what I already did in response to something someone else said about WoW not being a good comparison. Do you think I'm trying to imply something?
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It's funny because if grifts never existed this wouldn't even be a topic. Give people something to epeen about in ARPG and you get more crying, go figure. I would bring up how this game is many times better than D2 but people will just say that game is too old to compare to so I'll leave it at that.
we are not talking about what possibly could be or failed to be. That is the issue. Nobody of note IS talking about that.
instead the devs take a game, D3 version 2.3, take a few items from that game and give them a new stat that boosts skill damage by 100%.
and then because before they happened to add that boost, there was basically nothing at all, they think that they have "added to the game". Or they think that having a few items that boost damage is better than just one. and that adding it is the right way to go without question.
Then when Quin comes along and points out one of several reasons why this is not correct when viewing the issue in an abstract way, nobody understands. they have already convinced themselves that 2 items that do that is an improvement over 1. then they are unable to think any further.
who in their right mind would say "don't add items that boost skill damage..." I DARE you to answer this question honestly. WHO would say "dont do it. hmm?
I'll tell you who. The person who can want more from the game. More for it than "slap some damage on an item and the players will clap and cheer in January."
That's who would say don't do it. The smart and passionate ones. The ones who look at D3 and see that it could be better, and can expand upon this notion in a multitude of ways.
Diablo 3 is made by people who say "yea put it in, and any of the concerns brought up we can just say to the players "we feel you, we get you, we understand......" and that will handle all of the sloppy remainder of our careless "improvement"
This is actually reverse of what happens. You're right to a certain extent but that's not how the events play out. And it's also where the problem lies. With using wow as an example it wasn't just hybrid builds in the same sense of your previous example of frost-fire mage. It was a matter of choosing anything other than layout X makes you an idiot and every other choice can't come to raid with us. The same thing happened in season 4. Talent choices however should be on a situational basis and that will never change as long as new encounter mechanics come out (same with D3(new bosses, mobs, enemy abilities etc). I think where we are mis communicating is your stating the problem lies with one result instead of the problem being the system that caused several results that lead to one state of a game. The problem was that the talent trees made it impossible to balance the abilities themselves which lead the developers playing a constant battle of nerfing and buffing skills until they decided to just deal away with the system that caused half of the specs within a game to be very poorly represented simply because it didn't do the most damage.
Which leads us to the changes to the items we've been seeing. Diablo since day one has always tried to enforce a sense of diversity in builds as far as the skills and classes used. So you can see why there is no similar option to what happened in WoW (changing talent trees altogether). SO that leaves them with two options. They can keep repeating the same mistake they made in another game that caused a very similar problem by nerfing and buffing skills or they can change the items themselves and allow more class and set representation. The latter is the better option for everyone even though it destroys something that the top performers do on a regular basis: find the top build. In the end Quin and other builders will still be competitive with better representation of all of the classes and set. Because your skill, time and dedication as well as your build should decide who's the better player. Not whether you are playing "the right build" or not.
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The issue is the latter seems to be removing 90% of items/abilities from the game and have only leave the obvious choices. Then have everyone compete in Grifts because any sort of play outside of Grifts is irreverent. Might as go to the extreme and don't even have random loot just rewards at completion of grift levels (make it more like wow). Once we have stripped down to bare bones gear and abilities it will then only be about skill to compete in Grifts... wait where are we going with this, I thought this was supposed to be a fun game to kill monsters by various methods and modes... nope Diablo is and should now be an epeen competitive PvE. As a vet of the series I think this strays away from what this series has always been about; however you see a lot of these millennials talking about what the game should be and change to "get with the times". There are plenty of other games that allow you to compete in a balanced setting, the fact that Grifts were provided for some sort of measuring stick is a nice feature. Perhaps ladders should be adjusted for ranking so instead of solo wizard, how about solo channeling wizard or solo arcane orb wizard rankings.
Really this game needs PvP just add a player vs player damage/CC reduction of 90% or something absurd since were hitting for billions and let the players dictate/police standards and rules (Like D2). No balancing needed. Considering the effort going to try and balance PvE this simple little feature would add more replay value than any patch could.
I actually thought of that for PVP. I wanted to play it with my brothers but It was so unfair. One cluster arrow and my brother was toast lol. However, I don't want PVP for the game because I've seen what it's like trying to balance a game based on two different play modes of PVP and PVE, it will never be balanced and the story of nurfing and buffing skills just starts all over again.
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I don't know which would take more time to balance, this topic problem or a PVP in the current game.
This game has no PVP and if it ever would get PVP it would need to be balanced seperatly for obvious reasons.
How so? If you want to go "for its time" yes D2 is better than D3, but far as game play and what you get out of it D3 is far superior than D2. Basically if you could farm gear in hell mode in X spec then you are contributing or at least having fun doing something worthwhile. The same applies in D3 if you could farm TX in X spec the same logic applies, the issue is people think "well if I can't top GR's then X spec gear/abilities is useless". If you want the reinvent the wheel I'd start a new series not try on a series that already has an expected game play and feel from its predecessors.
I'll have to check that game out.
I agree public games are somewhat troublesome, but from what I've seen over that years thats just a typical issue with the player base now a days (especially with blizzard games). It's all about efficiency and trolls.
As mentioned before in other threads you just need to find the right clan. Competitive Clans are going to be focused like this so I get that and have no issue if they want to take that approach. So people then play public games because they have no friends or can't stay in competitive clans (this is me in a nutshell). Part of this issue is this patch was designed to group play = win. Going forward I'm hoping solo play will be more worth while so there is a lot less concern dealing with trolls in public games. I've also found a relaxed clan where people just want to play so I recommend others running into non competitive issues to focus on that approach.
I still think if we have different ranking systems displaying people's Grift results with different specs would reduce the butthurt itemization. If there was a Grift ranking for wave of force I'd actually take the time to gather non "top BIS Grift gear" and see how far I could "chart" in that spec. I do realize then this approach would make new BIS gear for these alternative specs, but it sure would make people actually try and use different items or specs. The hope would be people would stop complaining about itemization for 2-3 items in one spec per class.
It went from one extreme to another. This game was terrible in vanilla with RMAH and Inferno mode, now its loot city. I always complain about the maps in D3 but everyone just told me to stfu and accept that they were "random enough". The bots isn't a good example as it was 10000000000000000000X worse in D2. I don't know why you are saying game play is so basic and boring yet saying D2 was so great. D2 was spam one button for one spell = Win. Yes its over a decade later and this game hasn't evolved that much if you consider the time span.
I've played since day one and I'll tell you its been a whole range of emotions. Things are too easy now and that won't change (the longer a series lasts for Blizzard the easier it gets to they can cater to casuals). If you really want those good feelings and oh shit moments play hardcore, that really gets you into this game on an emotional level.
The main issue is this game is just about scaling/gear check. So its not challenging to then suddenly becoming impossible. I really think you need a total re-work or new series to implement the Ai/Challenges you want. Far as an overall ARPG, this game has hit most of the notes and succeeded. I just think in terms of "game for its time" you need new genres or series. It's not like each expansion of WoW has been ground breaking and if anything has gotten worse with each patch/expansion.
I really think people just expect too much, Blizzard came out with genre defining games or at least prototype what games should be for genres back in the 90's and recently early 2000's with WoW, but they haven't released anything ground breaking in years. As mentioned in other threads Blizzard isn't close to what used to be let alone the same company. All I expect is a solid game that will get me bang for my buck. As far as game for its time, I'd look else where this company doesn't do that anymore. They just rehash what sells on the same three series they have had for twenty years. Now they mainly just focus on what genres are hot and morph them into Blizzard type games, eg. HoTS & Overwatch.
TL;DR
Off topic but this thread seems dead anyways. Blizzard doesn't "start" genres anymore they just copy whats popular and do a good job of it.