As you can see Fists of Thunder - "Quickening" grants 15 extra spirit every critical hit, it doesn't say chance.
I will obviously be stacking critical hit to an extent because I will generate spirit faster which allows me to use my other abilties quicker. However due to that is it worth me taking "Sixth Sense" as a passive instead of "Seize the Initiative" ?
Guardian's Path > Sixth Sense unless you expect to get higher than 50% crit chance. Additionally, the armor you receive has to result in at least 15 * (% of non-dodgeable damage) you expect to take, otherwise the dodge is worth more than armor.
Simplified, if you expect a 50% split of dodgeable and non-dodgeable incoming damage, then the armor needs to provide you at least 7.5% damage reduction. I don't have armor -> DR equation on hand.
Guardian's Path > Sixth Sense unless you expect to get higher than 50% crit chance. Additionally, the armor you receive has to result in at least 15 * (% of non-dodgeable damage) you expect to take, otherwise the dodge is worth more than armor.
Simplified, if you expect a 50% split of dodgeable and non-dodgeable incoming damage, then the armor needs to provide you at least 7.5% damage reduction. I don't have armor -> DR equation on hand.
Except for the fact that guardians path only gives you bonus dodge if you dual wield. If you (like i likely will) go with a 2H weapon, that does NOT give you dodge.
Guardian's Path > Sixth Sense unless you expect to get higher than 50% crit chance. Additionally, the armor you receive has to result in at least 15 * (% of non-dodgeable damage) you expect to take, otherwise the dodge is worth more than armor.
Simplified, if you expect a 50% split of dodgeable and non-dodgeable incoming damage, then the armor needs to provide you at least 7.5% damage reduction. I don't have armor -> DR equation on hand.
Currently it seems that all damage is dodge-able. So your reasoning is currently wrong. However you are on a right track when you turn it around and talk about the diminished effect of armor. Armor actually loses value the more dodge you have.
If you have 0 dodge, and 50% damage reduction. With 100 attacks received at 10 damage per attack you migtate 500 damage.
Now add 50% dodge, and out of 100 attacks, 50 will actually hit, the rest is dodged. With 50% damage reduction you will migtate 50*10*50%=250 damage. To migtate the same amount of damage you did previously you would need 100% damage reduction. Aka doubling the amount of armor reduction.
Thats not true....... its actually a logical fallacy.
Dodge and Armor Do NOT negatively impact on another.
If you have 0% dodge and 50% reduction you mitigate 500 damage.
If you have 50% dodge and 0% reduction you mitigate 500 damage.
if you have 10% dodge and 10% reduction you mitigate 190 damage.
If you have 50% dodge and 50% reduction you mitigate 750 damage.
While you are correct that the amount of DIRECT damage that armor lowers in the end is less... you should not look at armor as a directly flat number blocked and more of a percentage. While 50% to 75% effective damage may appear small as its 25%... its actually HALFING all incoming damage. Going further and adding say a different mitigation of 5% would appear small but its reducting the damage throughput by a factor of 20%.
Diminishing returns make things appear weak... but it still reduces X by its factor.
Except for the fact that guardians path only gives you bonus dodge if you dual wield. If you (like i likely will) go with a 2H weapon, that does NOT give you dodge.
It's a good thing you told us that, or none of us might have known!
Also, Deleo's math is so very incorrect. Look up any number of tanking threads for WoW and look up how total dodge is determined.
Sixth sense just looks so weak unless you have VERY good crit and the monk has no skills to help out your crit chance (. Ocompared to other classes). I think that towards the end of the game as a monk you are going to be hungry for dexterity bonuses on your items. If you went for a lot of crit you might be missing out on a lot of dexterity bonuses and that would have you lacking in damage. Dexterity gives you damage and will increase your dodge. It's likely that if you took the stats you would of had for +crit and chose +dex instead you would end with a better dodge bonus (better than the 3-5% dodge bonus I'm expecting from sixth sense anyways). The barb and DH have much better options when it comes to crit builds. At least in the beta the only way to achieve exceptional dps with the monk is to have +dex on every item I don't think much will change in the later game either. If the ONLY reason you are assuming this crit monk build is to have faster spirit generation then I would use 'way of hundred fists' (spirited salvo) because it would be as if you had a +15% chance to crit (without wasting the stats on gear). If you are making a crit build for damage then I don't the monk is the class to do that with (think about this you don't any spirit spenders that could directly benefit from crit hits).
I also say you forgo quickening for something else, lightning flash will give you that defensive capability that you were seeking in 'sixth sense' if you like fists of thunder (I love fists of thunder). To save more spirit use 'strong spirit' on your exploding palm and much of the time EP will be almost free, unless you are using it for DoT damage. Since you wont be wasting a lot of spirit on exploding palm this way it leaves more to be spent on LTK.
I would say you can't have both pacisfism and Near death experience, at least I would handle that shit. Both those passive only become useful during very specific instances/situations (ex stun or when you die) this mean you are missing out on passives that are active the entire time. I would be okay with one passive that is situationally active but otherwise I want my passives to be helping me out ideally 100% of the time. And to be honest both of those passives seem weak, I mean if pacifism also decreased the time those kinds of attacks effected you that would be better, even if they decreased the damage reduction but also added a reduction to the time you affected it would be better. Chances are in inferno if you get stunned in the wrong place, even with 75% dmg reduction, you're a dead man. Near death experience seems like a waste for me because if you character is dieing then your build is wrong (at least for what gear you have and how you play) you shouldn't be dieing. The only time I'll use NDE if I know there is a specific mob or fight that I can almost win but I die just short of achieving the objective. I would use it temporarily just to get through the mob and then I would be on my merry way. The only was using both those skills would be justified is if you are thinking about playing hardcore.
TLDR: To simply answer your question, +Dex gives you damage and dodge so your much better stacking for dex, forgetting crit, and it becomes obvious sieze the innitiative is the smarter choice then.
Gaining 15% dodge from another source (read: the passive) gives you 32% dodge.
Gaining 15% DR worth of armor gives you a final DR of 49%
Given an average of 1000 DPS incoming:
Base = 200 DPS dodged, 320 DPS Reduced = 480 DPS taken
Dodge = 320 DPS dodged, 272 DPS Reduced = 408 DPS taken (85% of base)
Armor = 200 DPS dodged, 392 DPS Reduced = 408 DPS taken (85% of base)
You don't prove anything with incorrect math.
Let r = resistance, A = armor, and v = monster level. Then
r = [A/50v]/[1 + A/50v]
r + rA/50v = A/50V
50vr + rA = A
50vr = A(1 - r)
50vr/(1-r) = A
r = .15
v = 61
A = 538 armor for 15% DR, or 538 dexterity.
For level 65, 573. Note these are minimum values; due to the way armor works, higher values are needed as your base is higher. For example, you would need 882 armor against a level 60 at 40% DR (which happens to be an even 2000 at 60) to achieve that 15% DR benefit.
So, you're making incorrect assumptions when there is available fact. Gotcha. Or equally useful, you're making irrelevant points. Completely correct and completely moot.
There is no real conclusion to your answer unless we know what gear you are wearing! that is pretty much it!
Yeah its hard to judge... because obviously every monk will be stacking Dex, however I will want a nice amount of crit so I get some nice procs from the generator. I won't know how much I will roughly want until I see it in practice sadly.
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As you can see Fists of Thunder - "Quickening" grants 15 extra spirit every critical hit, it doesn't say chance.
I will obviously be stacking critical hit to an extent because I will generate spirit faster which allows me to use my other abilties quicker. However due to that is it worth me taking "Sixth Sense" as a passive instead of "Seize the Initiative" ?
Cheers.
Simplified, if you expect a 50% split of dodgeable and non-dodgeable incoming damage, then the armor needs to provide you at least 7.5% damage reduction. I don't have armor -> DR equation on hand.
Except for the fact that guardians path only gives you bonus dodge if you dual wield. If you (like i likely will) go with a 2H weapon, that does NOT give you dodge.
Thats not true....... its actually a logical fallacy.
Dodge and Armor Do NOT negatively impact on another.
If you have 0% dodge and 50% reduction you mitigate 500 damage.
If you have 50% dodge and 0% reduction you mitigate 500 damage.
if you have 10% dodge and 10% reduction you mitigate 190 damage.
If you have 50% dodge and 50% reduction you mitigate 750 damage.
While you are correct that the amount of DIRECT damage that armor lowers in the end is less... you should not look at armor as a directly flat number blocked and more of a percentage. While 50% to 75% effective damage may appear small as its 25%... its actually HALFING all incoming damage. Going further and adding say a different mitigation of 5% would appear small but its reducting the damage throughput by a factor of 20%.
Diminishing returns make things appear weak... but it still reduces X by its factor.
Also, Deleo's math is so very incorrect. Look up any number of tanking threads for WoW and look up how total dodge is determined.
I also say you forgo quickening for something else, lightning flash will give you that defensive capability that you were seeking in 'sixth sense' if you like fists of thunder (I love fists of thunder). To save more spirit use 'strong spirit' on your exploding palm and much of the time EP will be almost free, unless you are using it for DoT damage. Since you wont be wasting a lot of spirit on exploding palm this way it leaves more to be spent on LTK.
I would say you can't have both pacisfism and Near death experience, at least I would handle that shit. Both those passive only become useful during very specific instances/situations (ex stun or when you die) this mean you are missing out on passives that are active the entire time. I would be okay with one passive that is situationally active but otherwise I want my passives to be helping me out ideally 100% of the time. And to be honest both of those passives seem weak, I mean if pacifism also decreased the time those kinds of attacks effected you that would be better, even if they decreased the damage reduction but also added a reduction to the time you affected it would be better. Chances are in inferno if you get stunned in the wrong place, even with 75% dmg reduction, you're a dead man. Near death experience seems like a waste for me because if you character is dieing then your build is wrong (at least for what gear you have and how you play) you shouldn't be dieing. The only time I'll use NDE if I know there is a specific mob or fight that I can almost win but I die just short of achieving the objective. I would use it temporarily just to get through the mob and then I would be on my merry way. The only was using both those skills would be justified is if you are thinking about playing hardcore.
TLDR: To simply answer your question, +Dex gives you damage and dodge so your much better stacking for dex, forgetting crit, and it becomes obvious sieze the innitiative is the smarter choice then.
Gaining 15% dodge from another source (read: the passive) gives you 32% dodge.
Gaining 15% DR worth of armor gives you a final DR of 49%
Given an average of 1000 DPS incoming:
Base = 200 DPS dodged, 320 DPS Reduced = 480 DPS taken
Dodge = 320 DPS dodged, 272 DPS Reduced = 408 DPS taken (85% of base)
Armor = 200 DPS dodged, 392 DPS Reduced = 408 DPS taken (85% of base)
You don't prove anything with incorrect math.
r + rA/50v = A/50V
50vr + rA = A
50vr = A(1 - r)
50vr/(1-r) = A
r = .15
v = 61
A = 538 armor for 15% DR, or 538 dexterity.
For level 65, 573. Note these are minimum values; due to the way armor works, higher values are needed as your base is higher. For example, you would need 882 armor against a level 60 at 40% DR (which happens to be an even 2000 at 60) to achieve that 15% DR benefit.
The correct final difference in absolutes is ~.51%.
Also, the correct way of looking at it is that you are gaining ~14% DR from armor passive and only 9% from dodge passive.