It's a big debate right now regarding what weapon is best for 6p Mara builds.
What most people fail to understand, and that is mostly because they haven't had the chance to test a good kridershot (2600+ dps) it's the fact that are 2 different play styles.
1. Playing with Buriza - Your sentries indeed hit harder, but you don't do much else but placing sentries and kite mobs around. You can't spam your main attack because that would make you hatred starved, so in the end all you do is place sentry, kite, shoot once, kite, kite, place another sentry and repeat. You can't replenish your hate fast enough in T6 with health globes to be able to spam whatever attack ability you are using.
2. Playing with Kridershot - Your sentries hit softer, but in return you can pretty much spam your main attack, which overall results in higher effective dps. Not to mention that YOUR firing rate is much higher than the sentries, and also you have a build-in CC if you're using the frost rune on ele arrow.
Me personally have tested all the variations of the build: With Nat slayer, with Buriza, with Cindercoat, with Magefists, with TnT(altough my tnt gloves were shit) and my conclusion is that overall the winner is Kridershot.
Right now I'm using 2 gear builds: 6 mara+3 nats, or 6 mara+frostburn gloves.
But in the end you should test it out yourself and see what's best for you.
just stop with the krider.
please.
like literally no debate for what is bis for optimal time.
I understand you like your krider but god no the time doesn't come for it to shine till 2.1
take ur build stack cold if u must and get rid of CA:lfb...if u must use a cold build
dear god I end up readin your comments late at night and I just wanna puke.
There goes Nitewatcher again. I've done plenty of testing (and so have others), on live Krider is just not optimal. Your sentries do like 90%+ of your damage, nerfing them by using krider just so you can fire elemental arrow yourself is just less damage overall and its not even close.
Again on 2.1 (and PTR) maybe different but on live this is the case.
Why do you guys feel the need to epeen just because somebody else has a different opinion?
Just because YOU don't seem to like it or make it work, doesn't mean it's shit.
As I said on every other post, who's no sure what to do, go test it for yourself and make up your own conclusion. (90% of the posts on the forums are buillshit anyway, people have no clue what are they talking about, but for some reason they feel the need to push their own ideas on the forums).
I don't think they're saying it's shit, they're just saying it's not best in slot currently as it stands right now on live. The reason people get frustrated when they hear kridershot users say it's BiS is because they're clearly just overrating it simply due to the fact it's kridershot and they want it to be awesome. It's a great wep, but it's not optimal on live atm compared to other options, that's all. It's a bit annoying that blizz didn't make it the obvious choice for most specs given how rare it is but what can you do :\. I wish it was almost overpowered just because it deserves to be when it's that rare and the affix does what it does. A buff to ele arrow really needs to happen at some point.
Why do you guys feel the need to epeen just because somebody else has a different opinion?
Just because YOU don't seem to like it or make it work, doesn't mean it's shit.
As I said on every other post, who's no sure what to do, go test it for yourself and make up your own conclusion. (90% of the posts on the forums are buillshit anyway, people have no clue what are they talking about, but for some reason they feel the need to push their own ideas on the forums).
I don't think they're saying it's shit, they're just saying it's not best in slot currently as it stands right now on live. The reason people get frustrated when they hear kridershot users say it's BiS is because they're clearly just overrating it simply due to the fact it's kridershot and they want it to be awesome. It's a great wep, but it's not optimal on live atm compared to other options, that's all. It's a bit annoying that blizz didn't make it the obvious choice for most specs given how rare it is but what can you do :\. I wish it was almost overpowered just because it deserves to be when it's that rare and the affix does what it does. A buff to ele arrow really needs to happen at some point.
Just because something is rare doesn't mean it should be optimal on most, or even some arbitrary value between some and most, specs. Being rare should make it a gamechanger not BiS.
Why do you guys feel the need to epeen just because somebody else has a different opinion?
Just because YOU don't seem to like it or make it work, doesn't mean it's shit.
As I said on every other post, who's no sure what to do, go test it for yourself and make up your own conclusion. (90% of the posts on the forums are buillshit anyway, people have no clue what are they talking about, but for some reason they feel the need to push their own ideas on the forums).
I don't think they're saying it's shit, they're just saying it's not best in slot currently as it stands right now on live. The reason people get frustrated when they hear kridershot users say it's BiS is because they're clearly just overrating it simply due to the fact it's kridershot and they want it to be awesome. It's a great wep, but it's not optimal on live atm compared to other options, that's all. It's a bit annoying that blizz didn't make it the obvious choice for most specs given how rare it is but what can you do :\. I wish it was almost overpowered just because it deserves to be when it's that rare and the affix does what it does. A buff to ele arrow really needs to happen at some point.
Just because something is rare doesn't mean it should be optimal on most, or even some arbitrary value between some and most, specs. Being rare should make it a gamechanger not BiS.
having a rare item that most want to pursue being simply an arbitrary change to some skill rather than being optimal in efficiency due to its power is bad game design. rare items naturally deserve to be more powerful, having an item everyone receives as a standard that is optimal promotes no interest and gets boring very quickly as you have nothing to pursue unless you want to try a modified skill 'for shits a giggles'. if they gave everyone the most optimal setup straight away then this wouldn't be a good ARPG. a game designed around finding items means that if an item doesn't warrant its rarity then people are going to be annoyed, and rightly so.
having a rare item that most want to pursue being simply an arbitrary change to some skill rather than being optimal in efficiency due to its power is bad game design. rare items naturally deserve to be more powerful, having an item everyone receives as a standard that is optimal promotes no interest and gets boring very quickly as you have nothing to pursue unless you want to try a modified skill 'for shits a giggles'. if they gave everyone the most optimal setup straight away then this wouldn't be a good ARPG. a game designed around finding items means that if an item doesn't warrant its rarity then people are going to be annoyed, and rightly so.
Did I say it shouldn't be powerful? No. I said it shouldn't be BiS for most builds. It should be BiS for a build that is designed to take advantage of it.
I mean. The thing turns a rather powerful hatred spender into a hatred generator. Worst case scenario it's a 50% increase to baseline DPS. That's pretty powerful. Should it maybe be a little better? That depends. Is it BiS for a viable competitive build yet? I don't know, I'm not familiar with DH enough to make that call.
Point being that making the "rarest" item BiS for "most" builds is just as much flawed design as not making it optimal for something. It takes choice out of what items you use. There's a reason Thunderfury being essentially BiS as a 1H weapon for nearly every class and build (it's very very close to that situation) is a bad thing. No matter how rare the weapon is it's just removing player choice from the equation.
There's a reason Thunderfury being essentially BiS as a 1H weapon for nearly every class and build
I would strongly disagree.
Reason why TF is not very good is because of low dmg. Yes it got high dps displayed, but that's doesn't mean anything.
You want weapon with good range of dmg (thats numbers under HUGE dps number on weapon) 1500-2000 dmg for example (maces mostly)
Your abilities, which does % of weapon dmg, are based on average weapon dmg , not dps.
Thats why sunkeeper is best in most cases. I think it can roll up to 2050 or 2100 max dmg not sure exactly(ofc average weapon dmg is lower), while providing up to 30% elite dmg.
Same goes for Bows and Xbows. some have dmg range 1200-2600, some 2200-2600 for example. First one could have higher dps displayed, but i surely would want that low average dmg to be multiplayed by my skills.
TF is near BiS because of procs, and it does no less per hit damage than any other 1H weapon
(give or take a sunkeeper). Generally speaking a really good proc set will more than make up for slightly less damage numbers. Nevermind that difference between per hit damage and DPS stops mattering once afight takes longer than like 3 attacks.
People are getting confused here. The DPS displayed on a weapon is indicative of the damage dealt of that weapon. The DPS displayed is just the average of the damage range multiplied by the weapon attack speed. The only time you should not look at the DPS of a weapon and look only at the damage range only is when you're using a skill that doesnt take attack speed into effect.
For example a WD's ticks do not take into account attack speed, therefor you want a slow weapon with a high damage range. The same goes for DH's sentries in that the higher attack speed breakpoints do not grant you more cluster arrow or multishot shots per sentry cycle (until you get to unattainable breakpoints), only more standard sentry shots. This is why slow 2 hand crossbows are vastly superior to bows and 1 hand crossbows. Back on topic this is why Krider is vastly inferior.
I wonder why nobody ever talks about Calamity (shit I said it:o)
Is it because of its low drop rate or something ?
Im just asking, since a lot of thread skip this weapon when it comes to what's BiS or just a good weapon to use.
Because even given the very strong special (20% damage) the total damage too much lower than running with a 2h. We're talking about live.
On 2.1 the bug with the turret spenders will be fixed, hence 1h will become much more reliable (running with EA or Chakram) because the highest attack speed will still concur for more spender shots from sentries. Very likely 2h will still be optimal, but if the damage is decent for sure it could be a viable strategy, especially if you don't have any good 2h available (though the crafted one is good enough to start, given good rolls).
EDIT: i'm not entirely sure if a Rucksack will still be really needed in 2.1. We can get a new amulet to get Custom Engineering (if needed), and at the moment there's no elite/boss that takes me more than two turrets to kill. Maybe (and i repeat MAYBE) we will find that we can use another quiver or even - GASP - dual wield. Though i'm not much conviced about this.
Sentries deal more damage than the Demon Hunter himself/herself. We already know this and I believe everybody will accept this. There is also the fact that sentry attack speed gets bugged if EA and Chakram is equipped. Kridershot is a solid damage decrease for any M6 build out there for live servers.
Let's move ahead of time and consider the PTR build at hand.
Kridershot is subpar when compared to a 2h Xbow. The main reason is "Enforcer Gem" which gives insane amounts of Crit Chance to your pets. By utilizing the Enforcer Gem and a 2-hander xbow you can pretty much remove crit chance from gear and get more survival, utility or whatever else you need. Let's elaborate this a little bit so that this issue gets solved and won't resurrect again.
- What happens when you get all of your crit chance from 1 item (Enforcer)?
Simply, this means that you do not have to get crit chance from your gear which means +1 primary stat for you from every single piece of your items. You can use it to get more All Resistance, Life Regen, Life Percent... Considering a DH deals around 15% of the total damage in a Sentry build, trying to increase that minimal damage percent and giving up the additional survival which could help in higher Greater Rifts just makes no sense. No sense at all. Enforcer gem is so good for any pet build that increasing the pet damage will net you more damage in every case. BiS gear is decided considering the overall gear you have and the spec/build one uses. Ignoring the Enforcer and calculating damage without it is simply "weak" if not "idiotic" as M6 is a pet build. Let's move to another issue from here.
- Kridershot users can get a 3rd spender for free. Isn't that a good addition?
It would have been a good addition if Kridershot users get that 3rd spender for free. However, in the real world (real virtual world if I may), they don't get it for free. One can simply get Mark for Death instead of Elemental Arrow to the build and increase the damage even further. Getting a 3rd spender comes with a price and that price is quite costly.
- Kridershot is a rare drop. It should be better than a mere common 2-hander drop. I want this to happen so badly that I trick myself into believing that. Isn't that logical?
This actually makes sense. A rare drop should be a better item when compared to a common drop. However, Demon Hunter's current M6 build relies on pet damage and that damage relies on internal cooldowns which doesn't get affected by the attack speed. Since Kridershot damage relies attack speed more than a 2-h xbow, it just deals less damage. The fact that you want it to be true doesn't make it true. This rule actually applies most of the real life issues at hand. To make it more clear, you may want Rihanna to love you because she is a "rare" beauty. This is quite understandable but at the end of the day Rihanna most likely won't love you back and you'll end up with a "common" beauty. If Rihanna loved you back that would be awesome just like if internal cooldows were affected by attack speed it would have been awesome for Kridershot. Bitter truth is internal cooldowns are not affected by attack speed and Rihanna doesn't love you.
Well put, but you forget about a simple thing - your attacks are not coming only from turrets/pets.
You have 2 choices: spam turrets while running like an headless chicken or actually attack the monsters and the second option is hands down the best one until you have enough gear to basically oneshot things, which also means you can run with pretty any build you can conceive.
In a GR optic anyway, you're fighting against time so your objective should be to have zero downtime. There's no "let's take away crit because i have the gem" but more like "i have the gem and i want all the crit i can". More attacks are just better.
Not saying that 2xbow are worse than other weapons - i actually agree that there is not much point in discussing that since if the mechanics stay like this, math proofs enough and there's no discussion at all. Still, it's worth discussing how other weapons will perform since not everyone has a perfect Buriza or another great 2h on the spot, especially thinking about Seasons - one must know how every weapon will do, what build performs bettr and how to play depending on the gear you have. RNG can screw you and make you never drop a 2h for what it counts.
Your entire Rihanna thing just makes your points to be taken less eriously if anything. You could have just stated "2h xbows are better because math" and no one would have had anything to say.
I agree with the 1st post, nothing else compares to the Kridershot. I have a 2,786k Kridershot. What separates Kridershotfrom everything else is that (which in every forum poster never seem to mention) EA it hits every enemy in its path, so even if its doing 30% less dmg as a previous posterhas stated, when it hits 2 or more mobs it an outright win.
I run with 2.5mil ele dmg with 43% plus dmg to EA which sits at 3.089mil dps, the EA just melts mobs, every thing else I I have tried does not come close in my experience (definitely far from best I know).
Im starting to side with nite, i got a mid roll (only 2820 dps) but its a killing machine. Most here havent put in the time like nite and myself to deserve the greatest bow in the game
Im starting to side with nite, i got a mid roll (only 2820 dps) but its a killing machine. Most here havent put in the time like nite and myself to deserve the greatest bow in the game
Im starting to side with nite, i got a mid roll (only 2820 dps) but its a killing machine. Most here havent put in the time like nite and myself to deserve the greatest bow in the game
Im starting to side with nite, i got a mid roll (only 2820 dps) but its a killing machine. Most here havent put in the time like nite and myself to deserve the greatest bow in the game
please.
like literally no debate for what is bis for optimal time.
I understand you like your krider but god no the time doesn't come for it to shine till 2.1
take ur build stack cold if u must and get rid of CA:lfb...if u must use a cold build
dear god I end up readin your comments late at night and I just wanna puke.
Again on 2.1 (and PTR) maybe different but on live this is the case.
I mean. The thing turns a rather powerful hatred spender into a hatred generator. Worst case scenario it's a 50% increase to baseline DPS. That's pretty powerful. Should it maybe be a little better? That depends. Is it BiS for a viable competitive build yet? I don't know, I'm not familiar with DH enough to make that call.
Point being that making the "rarest" item BiS for "most" builds is just as much flawed design as not making it optimal for something. It takes choice out of what items you use. There's a reason Thunderfury being essentially BiS as a 1H weapon for nearly every class and build (it's very very close to that situation) is a bad thing. No matter how rare the weapon is it's just removing player choice from the equation.
(give or take a sunkeeper). Generally speaking a really good proc set will more than make up for slightly less damage numbers. Nevermind that difference between per hit damage and DPS stops mattering once afight takes longer than like 3 attacks.
For example a WD's ticks do not take into account attack speed, therefor you want a slow weapon with a high damage range. The same goes for DH's sentries in that the higher attack speed breakpoints do not grant you more cluster arrow or multishot shots per sentry cycle (until you get to unattainable breakpoints), only more standard sentry shots. This is why slow 2 hand crossbows are vastly superior to bows and 1 hand crossbows. Back on topic this is why Krider is vastly inferior.
On 2.1 the bug with the turret spenders will be fixed, hence 1h will become much more reliable (running with EA or Chakram) because the highest attack speed will still concur for more spender shots from sentries. Very likely 2h will still be optimal, but if the damage is decent for sure it could be a viable strategy, especially if you don't have any good 2h available (though the crafted one is good enough to start, given good rolls).
EDIT: i'm not entirely sure if a Rucksack will still be really needed in 2.1. We can get a new amulet to get Custom Engineering (if needed), and at the moment there's no elite/boss that takes me more than two turrets to kill. Maybe (and i repeat MAYBE) we will find that we can use another quiver or even - GASP - dual wield. Though i'm not much conviced about this.
Let's move ahead of time and consider the PTR build at hand.
Kridershot is subpar when compared to a 2h Xbow. The main reason is "Enforcer Gem" which gives insane amounts of Crit Chance to your pets. By utilizing the Enforcer Gem and a 2-hander xbow you can pretty much remove crit chance from gear and get more survival, utility or whatever else you need. Let's elaborate this a little bit so that this issue gets solved and won't resurrect again.
- What happens when you get all of your crit chance from 1 item (Enforcer)?
Simply, this means that you do not have to get crit chance from your gear which means +1 primary stat for you from every single piece of your items. You can use it to get more All Resistance, Life Regen, Life Percent... Considering a DH deals around 15% of the total damage in a Sentry build, trying to increase that minimal damage percent and giving up the additional survival which could help in higher Greater Rifts just makes no sense. No sense at all. Enforcer gem is so good for any pet build that increasing the pet damage will net you more damage in every case. BiS gear is decided considering the overall gear you have and the spec/build one uses. Ignoring the Enforcer and calculating damage without it is simply "weak" if not "idiotic" as M6 is a pet build. Let's move to another issue from here.
- Kridershot users can get a 3rd spender for free. Isn't that a good addition?
It would have been a good addition if Kridershot users get that 3rd spender for free. However, in the real world (real virtual world if I may), they don't get it for free. One can simply get Mark for Death instead of Elemental Arrow to the build and increase the damage even further. Getting a 3rd spender comes with a price and that price is quite costly.
- Kridershot is a rare drop. It should be better than a mere common 2-hander drop. I want this to happen so badly that I trick myself into believing that. Isn't that logical?
This actually makes sense. A rare drop should be a better item when compared to a common drop. However, Demon Hunter's current M6 build relies on pet damage and that damage relies on internal cooldowns which doesn't get affected by the attack speed. Since Kridershot damage relies attack speed more than a 2-h xbow, it just deals less damage. The fact that you want it to be true doesn't make it true. This rule actually applies most of the real life issues at hand. To make it more clear, you may want Rihanna to love you because she is a "rare" beauty. This is quite understandable but at the end of the day Rihanna most likely won't love you back and you'll end up with a "common" beauty. If Rihanna loved you back that would be awesome just like if internal cooldows were affected by attack speed it would have been awesome for Kridershot. Bitter truth is internal cooldowns are not affected by attack speed and Rihanna doesn't love you.
You have 2 choices: spam turrets while running like an headless chicken or actually attack the monsters and the second option is hands down the best one until you have enough gear to basically oneshot things, which also means you can run with pretty any build you can conceive.
In a GR optic anyway, you're fighting against time so your objective should be to have zero downtime. There's no "let's take away crit because i have the gem" but more like "i have the gem and i want all the crit i can". More attacks are just better.
Not saying that 2xbow are worse than other weapons - i actually agree that there is not much point in discussing that since if the mechanics stay like this, math proofs enough and there's no discussion at all. Still, it's worth discussing how other weapons will perform since not everyone has a perfect Buriza or another great 2h on the spot, especially thinking about Seasons - one must know how every weapon will do, what build performs bettr and how to play depending on the gear you have. RNG can screw you and make you never drop a 2h for what it counts.
Your entire Rihanna thing just makes your points to be taken less eriously if anything. You could have just stated "2h xbows are better because math" and no one would have had anything to say.
I run with 2.5mil ele dmg with 43% plus dmg to EA which sits at 3.089mil dps, the EA just melts mobs, every thing else I I have tried does not come close in my experience (definitely far from best I know).
Always keen to hear what other have say.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/woody-1130/Zeus/30703893
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Chadwixx-1438/hero/2510402