You list Sentry bonus at 15% throughout your calculations. If you're getting Sentry bonus on shoulders and chest shouldn't it be 30%? Ideal shoulder rolls being DEX, RCR, Sentry Damage and Area Damage. Chest rolls being DEX, 3 Sockets, Sentry Damage and some defensive stat. You also list Attack Speed over CDR in paragon points. Is this accurate? I know when fighting the RG it is preferable to shoot CA into the ground so you hit him with rockets instead. Is this also true with elite packs?
Thanks for putting in all this work and sharing it with us!
Yeah, I changed some things around last minute and still had 15% sentry in there, it should have been 30%. The relative values don't change that much, the numbers just go up by a little (a tiny bit more for Kridershot compared to the rest). Attack speed is better than CDR by a little, also you don't want to hit the ground because the rockets will always seek their target.
If i've read the xls correctly, you say that physical is 10% better because in the second link ( http://puu.sh/fmjnj/16126b7bcc.png ) you get 4045 vs 3655.
This result is based on "damage per number of target" and "rift composition". But why do rift composition is different for cold and phys ?
Just viewing the excel, it seems that the different rift composition is what give that 10% to phys, because phys has more than cold time fighting 4+ mobs.
The difference in time spent fighting stems from the fact that physical kills few targets quicker while cold kills many targets quicker. The benefit of cold decreases however the more targets you have, because the relative value of cluster rockets vs cluster impact becomes less and less, thus narrowing the gap between physical and cold. In fact, my previous calculations revealed an even greater advantage for physical and I subsequently changed the numbers to favor cold a little more. Maybe a few of the numbers are a little bit off, but the big picture remains largely the same; no matter which numbers I choose (as long as I don't completely revert all of them), be it +8% or 12%, in the end that will be decided upon by the actual RNG that creates your rift.
Ballistics / Custom Engineering / Awareness / Cull the Weak are mandatory
I suggest to add Steady Aim (preferably without Taeguk) / Single Out (what I used) / Night Stalker (preferably with 1h)
Archery (for 2h Xbow) and Ambush might be the next best options
Thanks Wudijo for the time and diligence you put into this. I am having a hard time with hexing pants and taeguk though, I'll need some serious burn-in time in order to get the rythm right. I am always afraid of using hatred while not having the hexing bonus, and then I am afraid of loosing taeguk.
Anyways, from your personal preference, would you say that it is easier to keep up taeguk with a bow or 2h xbow ?
I have a question about the damage comparisson spreadsheet btw.
On your second sheet, you have the columns for time spent fighting and Damage Comparison. For cluster, let's just look at 8 targets. For cold,the time fighting is 0,040, and for physical it's 0,050. Yet on the dmg comparison, you have 282,1 for Cold and 307,7 for physical.
Assuming these are dps numbers and maelstrom hits more targets than Shooting Stars, how can a higher time spent fighting and hitting less targets result in higher damage?
Also, for Evasive Fire, after 3 targets, your damage numbers for physical are winning. How is that possible, given that EF:Focus is a cold rune and cold gear would boost it's damage, considering the skill hits a SET number of targets?
Might just be my stupidity or incapability of interpreting this part of the sheet, but it did raise some flags in my eyes. Also, can rockets from your own CA procc Area Damage, or just the initial impact of SS/Maelstrom?
The point of the second page is not to measure dps, but total damage done during these indiviual time frames. If both had the same time spent (e.g. 0,05 at 8 targets), cold would be ahead (~350 vs ~307) (translation: more dps for cold). Same for evasive fire, and the numbers in that particular screenshot are physical values which change dynamically depending on which element you choose on the first page. Your rockets do proc area damage.
So according to your testing Ancient Calamity would be the best weapon? Ancient Krider damage is good, from what I tested, but it's a nightmare to use, you have to shoot EA to apply slow which is pain in the ass, especially with mobs that you wanna nuke down fast as possible. If one would play at your level then Spitfire Turret would show it's worth and maybe outdamage other options. Crossbow is safer option for sure.
I know it's early but in my opinion best hellfire amulet would be with awareness / steady aim, as these passive are best in slot all the time. With the next set coming 2.2 and reign on 1 handed crossbows (Calamity will be probably BiS) Custom Engineering won't be needed, Ballistics probably as well. But that's of course is a matter of RNG, what stats amulet will have.
It's too early to make reliable assumptions about the Unhallowed Essence set. I've read about some players who tested it at Blizzcon and they said that they had some items to accompany the set (like a quiver that makes your Multishot hit twice if the target is below x% hp). Cold and Phys Krider are both pretty close, so you could probably choose whichever you like best. Also note that numbers for Frost Arrow and Nether Tentacles were calculated with the same assumptions in mind, which might favor one or the other in different rifts due to their differing mechanics. Also, Steady Aim is not necessarily best in slot with Taeguk (and Hexing Pants).
because everyone has a high dpi mouse that can easily sway his mouse left and right with a fast attackspeed weapon. apologies for having regular hands.
A little offtopic: My mouse is pretty old. Your comment made me google for it because I have never really paid much attention to it, it just felt like being from last decade. In fact, I found out that it is more than a decade old, and not even available anymore on sites like amazon (aside from some used pieces). I'm not into hardware so much, but from my limited research I realized it's indeed a pretty good mouse (Logitech MX518). I don't want to argue about this stuff and certainly didn't intend to attack you personally, yet I got it second-hand for a few bucks a few years ago, so I guess it's not that big of a deal nowadays.
Hands down the best mouse I have ever played with . My first one lasted more years than I care to remember , when it finally gave up the ghost , I decided to go for a much more expensive top of the range mouse . After a couple of months , gave up with it and ordered another Logitech MX518 , love the thing
No way Physical is better then Cold when you fight 5 targets.
Btw. You show some mad skills in video.
If you go back and take a look at it closer, he says that it is the best balance between AoE and Singletarget dps. I did some quick maths today and found that it matches single target damage with LfB and grenade passive, while blowing that out of the water with AoE dps. It's not as strong as Maelstrom in AoE, but edges it out in single target.
I saw his video and almost 100% of the time, before boss, he is fighting 5+ monsters. I know you can kill 3 monsters faster with Shooting Stars but you have more then 3 monsters to fight almost all the time. Also, some bosses spawn minions.
Also LfB > SS for single target because you use it with Cindercoat.
Wudijo, first of all I would like to thank you for all the DH content you share, your videos, posts etc. They are always an interesting read/watch and I think DH community grows with people like you
That Physical build is pretty interesing. I was testing different elemental builds and this one never came to my mind, so I will test it as soon as I can. It looks kinda powerful. I would like to ask you: since I'm trying to push my GRift level on Solo (I'm using Cold and I'm around 43), do you recommend me to keep focusing on Cold or starting to grind for physical? Or maybe lightning, which I haven't tested yet. Maybe I should grind for both
Thank you in advance, and grats for your achievements, well deserved!
You should only use physical if you have somewhat comparable items. Bracers are crafted, so it's only SoJ left to find (and maybe amulet if you don't use dex on it).
Interesting research. But I don't get it why a bow should do more damage than a 2-hand xbow? The average damage of a xbow is 30% higher and the additional speed can't compensate that I guess as the reapers wraps + preparation + wolf cry are a huge factor.
Can you please comment on that?
Reaper's Wraps is not a huge factor, and you regenerate more by shooting quicker. I was a little surprised about the results myself, but the damage / shot is actually pretty comparable, yet you gain a lot of attack speed. Unfortunately I still have to find an adequate bow to test it in the rifts.
I'm confused now, and i think, it will be hard to beat this one and to go for solo purpose in physical build when i have this one. Do you agreed ?
Also, would like to understand, cause i'm not sure, do you use Hexing Pants over PF ? It could be used in standard cold build ? How do you manage ressources ?
Again, many thanks for your help and time spent for us !
Yes I use Hexing Pants over Pride's, mostly because my Pride's is crap. It's only viable in solo GRs though, and the difference doesn't change for phys or cold. Resource management is not much different.
Also: Damn you, this Etrayu is pretty much unbeatable. Gz ^^ Use this one instead of a physical build, it's pretty much on par (unless you can find comparable 2h bow / xbows / Calamity)
I saw his video and almost 100% of the time, before boss, he is fighting 5+ monsters. I know you can kill 3 monsters faster with Shooting Stars but you have more then 3 monsters to fight almost all the time. Also, some bosses spawn minions.
Also LfB > SS for single target because you use it with Cindercoat.
You have to consider that the weak enemies die a lot quicker than the big guys, leaving me with 1-3 targets quite often. Watch out for that and you'll see that they survive a long time, probably 20-40% of the total fight length of each individual pull. Also, it's difficult to make LfB work in solo.
Interesting video. I read about physical being good on the official B.net forum but I didn't have the time to make a lot of testing myself because of university. I will give this build a try.
One thing that surprises me is people doing very high GR so easily. I would say my character is quite decent, but only cleared 44 and was a few seconds short of making a GR46. I die a lot more than you do though. When I watch your video I have the feeling that you actually have the time to dodge things when I mostly get one shoted by anything without being able to do anything about it once awareness has been used, perhaps my latency: I never play with less than 80-100ms <_<, I'd be curious to know how much you have and if it really impacts the playstyle that much.
mmm ok, but I think this bias the result. Basically cold deal less damage because it spent less time fighting big groups (big group=higher total damage), and this because it destroy them quicker. On the other hand it's true that if the % are the same for both spec, it is an advantage for cold, because the total damage the two build deal to a 15-target group should be the same, so value should be different between the two specs.
If I can suggest, another approach can be:
1-assign for every number of target, a total HP. For example 120M HP for 1 target, 30M for 15 target.
2-calculate the time need to kill the group with both spec
Note the scale of the value assigned at point 1 is not important because the scope is a comparison.
Instead, it is crucial the ratio between (example) 1 target and 10 target. This is also true in your model because I suppose that, if you assign 50% of time fighting, instead of 28% (as cold), fighting 5+ mobs, then the final results will change a lot.
The outcome would be mostly the same, no matter if I use hp numbers or assign time to the enemies. Calculating like this would add even more "fake credibility" to it because everything seems so perfectly calculated, yet the truth is, you can't calculate all the situations perfectly. I was just trying to get a good average and base my calculations on this. Additionally, I have tried to assign more time to 5+ targets, and yes, the physical advantage obviously decreases but probably by less than you'd expect (and there's only so much time you can take away from single / 2 / 3 target time because of RG and elites).
I saw his video and almost 100% of the time, before boss, he is fighting 5+ monsters. I know you can kill 3 monsters faster with Shooting Stars but you have more then 3 monsters to fight almost all the time. Also, some bosses spawn minions.
Also LfB > SS for single target because you use it with Cindercoat.
You have to consider that the weak enemies die a lot quicker than the big guys, leaving me with 1-3 targets quite often. Watch out for that and you'll see that they survive a long time, probably 20-40% of the total fight length of each individual pull. Also, it's difficult to make LfB work in solo.
It all comes down to map type, monster type and monster density you get. For many Grifts cold is still better. I finished 48 solo in 13 min 22 sec using Cold build, I did not use any Pylon for boss fight and I got rift full of Winged Assassins, Exarch, Archers with good density. I died few times. Boss was Choker I think, he is not hard but is much harder then Stonesinger. I also did not use teaguk but bane of powerfull so I lost some potential damage there. I don't have shoulder with Area Damage so lost some damage there also. That was good enough for 38th rank EU and I did not even push that hard. It was so so Grift from my 4th try. I did not record that exact run but I recorder easy GR47 few days later.
I can't think of big monster that gives you good progress and that is so dangerous for you. For example: Punisher, Executioner, Mallet lord, Unburied, Disentombed Hulks all give good progress and present 0 danger to you. If you get only 3 of them then why no push forward and find +2 monsters for more overall damage? Also best monster you can get are Bears and you find more then 5 of them always. Champion packs (most HP) also have boss + minions > 3.
At the end I would say we agree that Physical is better in some Greater Rifts but we don't agree Physical is better ~10% for almost all Greater rifts.
In my opinion "hidden" benefit of Haxing Pants is that you can keep Teaguk up more easy then with Prides Falls. At least it is case with me after 15 min testing. Maybe when I get used to this a bit more I will change my mind.
I did not suggest LfB for solo, it is just disaster for solo. Cold and Physical gives you guaranteed damage while LfB is too situational. I just said that for single target LfB is still better then Physical which is true.
I saw his video and almost 100% of the time, before boss, he is fighting 5+ monsters. I know you can kill 3 monsters faster with Shooting Stars but you have more then 3 monsters to fight almost all the time. Also, some bosses spawn minions.
Also LfB > SS for single target because you use it with Cindercoat.
You have to consider that the weak enemies die a lot quicker than the big guys, leaving me with 1-3 targets quite often. Watch out for that and you'll see that they survive a long time, probably 20-40% of the total fight length of each individual pull. Also, it's difficult to make LfB work in solo.
It all comes down to map type, monster type and monster density you get. For many Grifts cold is still better. I finished 48 solo in 13 min 22 sec using Cold build, I did not use any Pylon for boss fight and I got rift full of Winged Assassins, Exarch, Archers with good density. I died few times. Boss was Choker I think, he is not hard but is much harder then Stonesinger. I also did not use teaguk but bane of powerfull so I lost some potential damage there. I don't have shoulder with Area Damage so lost some damage there also. That was good enough for 38th rank EU and I did not even push that hard. It was so so Grift from my 4th try. I did not record that exact run but I recorder easy GR47 few days later.
I can't think of big monster that gives you good progress and that is so dangerous for you. For example: Punisher, Executioner, Mallet lord, Unburied, Disentombed Hulks all give good progress and present 0 danger to you. If you get only 3 of them then why no push forward and find +2 monsters for more overall damage? Also best monster you can get are Bears and you find more then 5 of them always. Champion packs (most HP) also have boss + minions > 3.
At the end I would say we agree that Physical is better in some Greater Rifts but we don't agree Physical is better ~10% for almost all Greater rifts.
In my opinion "hidden" benefit of Haxing Pants is that you can keep Teaguk up more easy then with Prides Falls. At least it is case with me after 15 min testing. Maybe when I get used to this a bit more I will change my mind.
I did not suggest LfB for solo, it is just disaster for solo. Cold and Physical gives you guaranteed damage while LfB is too situational. I just said that for single target LfB is still better then Physical which is true.
So I did take a closer look at your video and I want to share my thoughts with you:
In your particular rift, you encountered a lot of small worthless monsters, like those skeletons, but also big valuable creatures like savage beasts and punishers, and indeed did you fight 5+ monsters for quite some time. However, it was an open space map and a pretty long rift, so the density wasn't the best overall. Nearly none of your elite packs had you fighting more than 3 or 4 targets at a time (see 2:45, 4:00, 6:00, 7:20), and those punishers and leftover skeletons easily account for 1/3 or even more of the fight length in most cases (see 0:50, 1:40, 4:30, 5:00, 7:05). You said you can just pull more monsters on those easy big guys, however oftentimes there are none, and even if there are, you might not be able to risk it due to map layout.
In addition to that, it took you about 1:50 to kill one of the easy go-to single-target-only RGs on tier 47, and you even managed to refresh your BotP exactly 5 seconds before he spawned. I've taken a look at your profile and can see that you items are comparable to mine, your gems are even higher than mine, and paragon is almost the same, so we can assume that we have pretty much exactly the same potential damage output (discounting your advantage in ancient items). You used Steady Aim to clear the rift, yet I can use Single Out / Taeguk / Shooting Stars and kill the RG in approximately the same time on tier 52 (+/- 10 sec), which is a little more than double the HP of tier 47, while not losing out on the trash (perhaps even gaining) and certainly not on elites.
You are right that for bad rifts with plenty of enemies like assassins, skeletons, ravenous dead, anarchs etc cold might come close (or in extreme cases even pull ahead), but as I said previously, those are not the rifts that you actually want to complete if you're going for a high rank or personal best. It is possible to go 50+ even with cold in those rifts, but at the top you will find those players who got a lot of big monsters in their rift, which strongly favors physical. So I guess the ~10% damage advantage still holds true in those cases where it matters.
Quote from Merano
Interesting research. But I don't get it why a bow should do more damage than a 2-hand xbow? The average damage of a xbow is 30% higher and the additional speed can't compensate that I guess as the reapers wraps + preparation + wolf cry are a huge factor.
Can you please comment on that?
Reaper's Wraps is not a huge factor, and you regenerate more by shooting quicker. I was a little surprised about the results myself, but the damage / shot is actually pretty comparable, yet you gain a lot of attack speed. Unfortunately I still have to find an adequate bow to test it in the rifts.
"So I did take a closer look at your video and I want to share my thoughts with you: In your particular rift, you encountered a lot of small worthless monsters, like those skeletons, but also big valuable creatures like savage beasts and punishers, and indeed did you fight 5+ monsters for quite some time. However, it was an open space map and a pretty long rift, so the density wasn't the best overall."
If you like I can help you with Excel project/calculator if you wish. I had all actual damage numbers (crit non cirt) in excel for pre patch sentry builds and combos. I think good calculation has to include monster type, HP, and amount of progress they give. The key here is progress per HP killed is not same for all monsters (it seems).I saw post on official forums about it not long time ago. Some guy listed all monsters and pregress % they give. 0.5% progress is not bad if you get it fast. That needs to be taken into account.
"Nearly none of your elite packs had you fighting more than 3 or 4 targets at a time (see 2:45, 4:00, 6:00, 7:20), and those punishers and leftover skeletons easily account for 1/3 or even more of the fight length in most cases (see 0:50, 1:40, 4:30, 5:00, 7:05)."
I don't know how you can see this because I can't see it when I look at my own video :). Few of the packs are offscreen all the time.
"In addition to that, it took you about 1:50 to kill one of the easy go-to single-target-only RGs on tier 47, and you even managed to refresh your BotP exactly 5 seconds before he spawned.I've taken a look at your profile and can see that you items are comparable to mine, your gems are even higher than mine, and paragon is almost the same, so we can assume that we have pretty much exactly the same potential damage output (discounting your advantage in ancient items). You used Steady Aim to clear the rift, yet I can use Single Out / Taeguk / Shooting Stars and kill the RG in approximately the same time on tier 52 (+/- 10 sec), which is a little more than double the HP of tier 47, while not losing out on the trash (perhaps even gaining) and certainly not on elites."
It is not a secret cold is bad for single target. But in your video you got perfect boss for Physical build. You fought Stonesinger and he has health link with his adds. And there are total of 3 targets. I would kill him faster with same cold build on 52 then I killed Choker on 47. Using Single Out is only good for single target and don't forget there is a hard cap for crit chance at 75%. BotP at max is still less damage then Taeguk at lvl 60.
I think any good calculation must take into account HP of small monsters, Boss, and Big monsters and progress they give. To have a good approximation about time spent fighting 1, 2, 3 ,4 or 5 targets you need to take into account possible targets HP.
Simple calculation shows that if you fight 5 targets 40% of time, 4 targets 20% of time, 3 targets 10% of time, 2 targets 10% of time and 1 target 10% of time and if all targets give same progress per HP killed cold does more damage overall. But it seems that is not the case.
900*5*0.4+900*4*0.2+900*3*0.1+900*2*0.1+900*1*0.1=1800+720+270+180+90=3060% for cold
1200*3*0.4+1200*3*0.2+1200*3*0.1+1200*2*0.1+1200*1*0.1=1440+720+360+240+120=2880% for physical
Until someone (including me) pass 52 using other build I will consider your research as correct.
I have one last question Wudijo. In video we can see that you use Ballsitics passive on your Hellfire amulet. But we cant see other passives. My question is are you using Steady Aim or Single out passive in that video?
I've been running this build the last few days and enjoying it but I'm unsure about my weapon. I haven't played in months and now 2 hand x-bows seem to be the thing. Problem is my best weapon right now is a Danetta's Revenge at just under 3K (mainly due to +9% Dam and +6% IAS that I rolled into it to reach the old Sentry BPs). I have an Etrayu and a Kridershot both in the 2600 range. I've crafted around 20 Barbs the last few nights but they've all been crap. Should I just stick with the Danetta's for now or is this build intentionally trying to avoid super high IAS?
Why did you decide to stick with Cluster Arrow in general? Was it just the rockets and aiming requirements aren't as high?
Because why would you use anything else when it's simply subpar to CA?
Whats the math/proof behind other skills being subpar. After all he made a big splash previously going with elemental arrow lightning build, many demon hunters use multishot, I've see chakrams used. He said he spent a lot of time testing different skills/builds before accepting that CA was the best way, but I'd like to hear more of that reasoning.
If you like I can help you with Excel project/calculator if you wish. I had all actual damage numbers (crit non cirt) in excel for pre patch sentry builds and combos. I think good calculation has to include monster type, HP, and amount of progress they give. The key here is progress per HP killed is not same for all monsters (it seems).I saw post on official forums about it not long time ago. Some guy listed all monsters and pregress % they give. 0.5% progress is not bad if you get it fast. That needs to be taken into account.
"Nearly none of your elite packs had you fighting more than 3 or 4 targets at a time (see 2:45, 4:00, 6:00, 7:20), and those punishers and leftover skeletons easily account for 1/3 or even more of the fight length in most cases (see 0:50, 1:40, 4:30, 5:00, 7:05)."
I don't know how you can see this because I can't see it when I look at my own video :). Few of the packs are offscreen all the time.
It is not a secret cold is bad for single target. But in your video you got perfect boss for Physical build. You fought Stonesinger and he has health link with his adds. And there are total of 3 targets. I would kill him faster with same cold build on 52 then I killed Choker on 47. Using Single Out is only good for single target and don't forget there is a hard cap for crit chance at 75%. BotP at max is still less damage then Taeguk at lvl 60.
I think any good calculation must take into account HP of small monsters, Boss, and Big monsters and progress they give. To have a good approximation about time spent fighting 1, 2, 3 ,4 or 5 targets you need to take into account possible targets HP.
Simple calculation shows that if you fight 5 targets 40% of time, 4 targets 20% of time, 3 targets 10% of time, 2 targets 10% of time and 1 target 10% of time and if all targets give same progress per HP killed cold does more damage overall. But it seems that is not the case.
900*5*0.4+900*4*0.2+900*3*0.1+900*2*0.1+900*1*0.1=1800+720+270+180+90=3060% for cold
1200*3*0.4+1200*3*0.2+1200*3*0.1+1200*2*0.1+1200*1*0.1=1440+720+360+240+120=2880% for physical
Until someone (including me) pass 52 using other build I will consider your research as correct.
I'll keep it short:
I don't want to do the calculations with actual monster hp, as it would probably result in nearly the same numbers, amounting to a lot of work for no good reason. It's probably true that hp values don't translate 1:1 to progress gain, however this difference is the same for any build and thus will only make a marginal difference (if any at all).
You can tell how many targets you were fighting most of the time, those skeletons usually come in packs of 3-5 and there were never more than 4 visible at a given time. With some experience you get a feel for how they move and when they will enter the screen.
Yes, Stonesinger undeniably is the best for everyone, but in the end it's 4 targets, not three, effectively negating the benefit of physical for the last 25%. Also, Single Out can go past the crit cap, thus I lost ~30% dps after the first split, which is why the kill time is so close to my average kill times for single target RGs (1:40 Stonesinger vs. ~2:00 others).
Your numbers for targets and time spent are way off. RG = ~2 min, which is ~13% by itself. Add some yellows and some big guys, and you get to 25-30+% time spent on single target easily, and you will have similar results 2-3 targets as well, hence why physical is stronger in most cases.
Quote from darwinn69Why did you decide to stick with Cluster Arrow in general? Was it just the rockets and aiming requirements aren't as high?
Because why would you use anything else when it's simply subpar to CA?
Whats the math/proof behind other skills being subpar. After all he made a big splash previously going with elemental arrow lightning build, many demon hunters use multishot, I've see chakrams used. He said he spent a lot of time testing different skills/builds before accepting that CA was the best way, but I'd like to hear more of that reasoning.
Most important reason is the range of Cluster Arrow when fired by your sentries. It basically shoots across the whole map, which other spells don't do.
Can you recalculate with switching Preparation to Mark of Death (Mortal Enemy)? If im right understand, u get back 8 hatred when impact and rocket hit marked target. Than with Pride's Fall helm CA cost 9.7!
And one more. From your math, you total gen (and spend) 14360 hatred. 8% RCR on quiver about same as 14360 * 0.08 / 900 ~ 1.276 hatred per second. Instead of RCR you can roll 1.5 hatred per second.
True, but I put about 2 days of work into this spreadsheet and testing before. Also: I explained why it's better. Also: Items. Also: Playstyle.
The difference in time spent fighting stems from the fact that physical kills few targets quicker while cold kills many targets quicker. The benefit of cold decreases however the more targets you have, because the relative value of cluster rockets vs cluster impact becomes less and less, thus narrowing the gap between physical and cold. In fact, my previous calculations revealed an even greater advantage for physical and I subsequently changed the numbers to favor cold a little more. Maybe a few of the numbers are a little bit off, but the big picture remains largely the same; no matter which numbers I choose (as long as I don't completely revert all of them), be it +8% or 12%, in the end that will be decided upon by the actual RNG that creates your rift.
Ballistics / Custom Engineering / Awareness / Cull the Weak are mandatory
I suggest to add Steady Aim (preferably without Taeguk) / Single Out (what I used) / Night Stalker (preferably with 1h)
Archery (for 2h Xbow) and Ambush might be the next best options
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The point of the second page is not to measure dps, but total damage done during these indiviual time frames. If both had the same time spent (e.g. 0,05 at 8 targets), cold would be ahead (~350 vs ~307) (translation: more dps for cold). Same for evasive fire, and the numbers in that particular screenshot are physical values which change dynamically depending on which element you choose on the first page. Your rockets do proc area damage.
It's too early to make reliable assumptions about the Unhallowed Essence set. I've read about some players who tested it at Blizzcon and they said that they had some items to accompany the set (like a quiver that makes your Multishot hit twice if the target is below x% hp). Cold and Phys Krider are both pretty close, so you could probably choose whichever you like best. Also note that numbers for Frost Arrow and Nether Tentacles were calculated with the same assumptions in mind, which might favor one or the other in different rifts due to their differing mechanics. Also, Steady Aim is not necessarily best in slot with Taeguk (and Hexing Pants).
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Btw. You show some mad skills in video.
Single Target
SS > LfB > Maelstrom
Multi-Target
Maelstrom > SS > LfB
I saw his video and almost 100% of the time, before boss, he is fighting 5+ monsters. I know you can kill 3 monsters faster with Shooting Stars but you have more then 3 monsters to fight almost all the time. Also, some bosses spawn minions.
Also LfB > SS for single target because you use it with Cindercoat.
Rockets are pretty much mandatory for solo. Fire is for groups
Reaper's Wraps is not a huge factor, and you regenerate more by shooting quicker. I was a little surprised about the results myself, but the damage / shot is actually pretty comparable, yet you gain a lot of attack speed. Unfortunately I still have to find an adequate bow to test it in the rifts.
Yes I use Hexing Pants over Pride's, mostly because my Pride's is crap. It's only viable in solo GRs though, and the difference doesn't change for phys or cold. Resource management is not much different.
Also: Damn you, this Etrayu is pretty much unbeatable. Gz ^^ Use this one instead of a physical build, it's pretty much on par (unless you can find comparable 2h bow / xbows / Calamity)
You have to consider that the weak enemies die a lot quicker than the big guys, leaving me with 1-3 targets quite often. Watch out for that and you'll see that they survive a long time, probably 20-40% of the total fight length of each individual pull. Also, it's difficult to make LfB work in solo.
My latency usually is 30-80ms, and it does make a difference for DH (probably less so now than with lightning, but still)
The outcome would be mostly the same, no matter if I use hp numbers or assign time to the enemies. Calculating like this would add even more "fake credibility" to it because everything seems so perfectly calculated, yet the truth is, you can't calculate all the situations perfectly. I was just trying to get a good average and base my calculations on this. Additionally, I have tried to assign more time to 5+ targets, and yes, the physical advantage obviously decreases but probably by less than you'd expect (and there's only so much time you can take away from single / 2 / 3 target time because of RG and elites).
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VIDEO here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzu8GFPdv20
I can't think of big monster that gives you good progress and that is so dangerous for you. For example: Punisher, Executioner, Mallet lord, Unburied, Disentombed Hulks all give good progress and present 0 danger to you. If you get only 3 of them then why no push forward and find +2 monsters for more overall damage? Also best monster you can get are Bears and you find more then 5 of them always. Champion packs (most HP) also have boss + minions > 3.
At the end I would say we agree that Physical is better in some Greater Rifts but we don't agree Physical is better ~10% for almost all Greater rifts.
In my opinion "hidden" benefit of Haxing Pants is that you can keep Teaguk up more easy then with Prides Falls. At least it is case with me after 15 min testing. Maybe when I get used to this a bit more I will change my mind.
I did not suggest LfB for solo, it is just disaster for solo. Cold and Physical gives you guaranteed damage while LfB is too situational. I just said that for single target LfB is still better then Physical which is true.
In your particular rift, you encountered a lot of small worthless monsters, like those skeletons, but also big valuable creatures like savage beasts and punishers, and indeed did you fight 5+ monsters for quite some time. However, it was an open space map and a pretty long rift, so the density wasn't the best overall. Nearly none of your elite packs had you fighting more than 3 or 4 targets at a time (see 2:45, 4:00, 6:00, 7:20), and those punishers and leftover skeletons easily account for 1/3 or even more of the fight length in most cases (see 0:50, 1:40, 4:30, 5:00, 7:05). You said you can just pull more monsters on those easy big guys, however oftentimes there are none, and even if there are, you might not be able to risk it due to map layout.
In addition to that, it took you about 1:50 to kill one of the easy go-to single-target-only RGs on tier 47, and you even managed to refresh your BotP exactly 5 seconds before he spawned. I've taken a look at your profile and can see that you items are comparable to mine, your gems are even higher than mine, and paragon is almost the same, so we can assume that we have pretty much exactly the same potential damage output (discounting your advantage in ancient items). You used Steady Aim to clear the rift, yet I can use Single Out / Taeguk / Shooting Stars and kill the RG in approximately the same time on tier 52 (+/- 10 sec), which is a little more than double the HP of tier 47, while not losing out on the trash (perhaps even gaining) and certainly not on elites.
You are right that for bad rifts with plenty of enemies like assassins, skeletons, ravenous dead, anarchs etc cold might come close (or in extreme cases even pull ahead), but as I said previously, those are not the rifts that you actually want to complete if you're going for a high rank or personal best. It is possible to go 50+ even with cold in those rifts, but at the top you will find those players who got a lot of big monsters in their rift, which strongly favors physical. So I guess the ~10% damage advantage still holds true in those cases where it matters.
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"So I did take a closer look at your video and I want to share my thoughts with you:
In your particular rift, you encountered a lot of small worthless monsters, like those skeletons, but also big valuable creatures like savage beasts and punishers, and indeed did you fight 5+ monsters for quite some time. However, it was an open space map and a pretty long rift, so the density wasn't the best overall."
If you like I can help you with Excel project/calculator if you wish. I had all actual damage numbers (crit non cirt) in excel for pre patch sentry builds and combos. I think good calculation has to include monster type, HP, and amount of progress they give. The key here is progress per HP killed is not same for all monsters (it seems).I saw post on official forums about it not long time ago. Some guy listed all monsters and pregress % they give. 0.5% progress is not bad if you get it fast. That needs to be taken into account.
"Nearly none of your elite packs had you fighting more than 3 or 4 targets at a time (see 2:45, 4:00, 6:00, 7:20), and those punishers and leftover skeletons easily account for 1/3 or even more of the fight length in most cases (see 0:50, 1:40, 4:30, 5:00, 7:05)."
I don't know how you can see this because I can't see it when I look at my own video :). Few of the packs are offscreen all the time.
"In addition to that, it took you about 1:50 to kill one of the easy go-to single-target-only RGs on tier 47, and you even managed to refresh your BotP exactly 5 seconds before he spawned.I've taken a look at your profile and can see that you items are comparable to mine, your gems are even higher than mine, and paragon is almost the same, so we can assume that we have pretty much exactly the same potential damage output (discounting your advantage in ancient items). You used Steady Aim to clear the rift, yet I can use Single Out / Taeguk / Shooting Stars and kill the RG in approximately the same time on tier 52 (+/- 10 sec), which is a little more than double the HP of tier 47, while not losing out on the trash (perhaps even gaining) and certainly not on elites."
It is not a secret cold is bad for single target. But in your video you got perfect boss for Physical build. You fought Stonesinger and he has health link with his adds. And there are total of 3 targets. I would kill him faster with same cold build on 52 then I killed Choker on 47. Using Single Out is only good for single target and don't forget there is a hard cap for crit chance at 75%. BotP at max is still less damage then Taeguk at lvl 60.
I think any good calculation must take into account HP of small monsters, Boss, and Big monsters and progress they give. To have a good approximation about time spent fighting 1, 2, 3 ,4 or 5 targets you need to take into account possible targets HP.
Simple calculation shows that if you fight 5 targets 40% of time, 4 targets 20% of time, 3 targets 10% of time, 2 targets 10% of time and 1 target 10% of time and if all targets give same progress per HP killed cold does more damage overall. But it seems that is not the case.
900*5*0.4+900*4*0.2+900*3*0.1+900*2*0.1+900*1*0.1=1800+720+270+180+90=3060% for cold
1200*3*0.4+1200*3*0.2+1200*3*0.1+1200*2*0.1+1200*1*0.1=1440+720+360+240+120=2880% for physical
Until someone (including me) pass 52 using other build I will consider your research as correct.
I've been running this build the last few days and enjoying it but I'm unsure about my weapon. I haven't played in months and now 2 hand x-bows seem to be the thing. Problem is my best weapon right now is a Danetta's Revenge at just under 3K (mainly due to +9% Dam and +6% IAS that I rolled into it to reach the old Sentry BPs). I have an Etrayu and a Kridershot both in the 2600 range. I've crafted around 20 Barbs the last few nights but they've all been crap. Should I just stick with the Danetta's for now or is this build intentionally trying to avoid super high IAS?
Whats the math/proof behind other skills being subpar. After all he made a big splash previously going with elemental arrow lightning build, many demon hunters use multishot, I've see chakrams used. He said he spent a lot of time testing different skills/builds before accepting that CA was the best way, but I'd like to hear more of that reasoning.
I don't want to do the calculations with actual monster hp, as it would probably result in nearly the same numbers, amounting to a lot of work for no good reason. It's probably true that hp values don't translate 1:1 to progress gain, however this difference is the same for any build and thus will only make a marginal difference (if any at all).
You can tell how many targets you were fighting most of the time, those skeletons usually come in packs of 3-5 and there were never more than 4 visible at a given time. With some experience you get a feel for how they move and when they will enter the screen.
Yes, Stonesinger undeniably is the best for everyone, but in the end it's 4 targets, not three, effectively negating the benefit of physical for the last 25%. Also, Single Out can go past the crit cap, thus I lost ~30% dps after the first split, which is why the kill time is so close to my average kill times for single target RGs (1:40 Stonesinger vs. ~2:00 others).
Your numbers for targets and time spent are way off. RG = ~2 min, which is ~13% by itself. Add some yellows and some big guys, and you get to 25-30+% time spent on single target easily, and you will have similar results 2-3 targets as well, hence why physical is stronger in most cases.
Most important reason is the range of Cluster Arrow when fired by your sentries. It basically shoots across the whole map, which other spells don't do.
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And one more. From your math, you total gen (and spend) 14360 hatred. 8% RCR on quiver about same as 14360 * 0.08 / 900 ~ 1.276 hatred per second. Instead of RCR you can roll 1.5 hatred per second.
I tested Physical yesterday and finished 48 easy in 12 minutes. For now it seems good.