Edit: Thread title is rather misleading in stating that the solution is different than those proposed by blizzard. In fact it 'can' be classified under their #5 solution, however so can millions of theories since they chose such a broad topic and I am proposing an exact solution instead of simply an idea. If someone capable can change the thread to "The Real Solution to Gear Swapping", I feel that would be a more appropriate title.
This thread is for finding a solution and NOT debating whether a solution is needed or not. Please refrain from the debate of whether something should be done and only focus on creating a solution since Blizzard has already acknowledge this as a problem and is finding a solution.
From all 5 options, which ones are best vary from opinion to opinion, but if the "issue" of gear swapping is to be addressed, I think it best to approach the issue as follows:
The issue is the action of swapping out gear.
The fix must be directly related to swapping out gear for added MF.
Therefore, upon swapping out a single item for one with MF, let us say 'X' will happen.
current proposition:
When an item is swapped with another item that has MF as an affix, 'X' will happen
Now, follow through with instance of when someone would swap out gear.
Most simply, people have been swapping out gear for either
1) To get an added MF/GF bonus
2) To upgrade an existing item
It is illogical to penalize an individual for finding an upgrade, thus, taking the idea posted by a Blue that over time, the rate of finding an upgrade will slowly decrease, we can come to the conclusion that swapping 1 item should not incur penalty AND the duration for which a penalty can be applied should exist for a miniscule amount of time as compared to the chances of finding an upgrade. This brings us to:
The action taken will affect after swapping more than 1 item with MF within a duration of Y minutes.
updated proposition:
When an item is swapped with another item that has MF as an affix, X will happen for every item with MF swapped within Y minutes of of the most recent item swap.
This is the core of the proposition, all that is left finding a time and an action. Taking the action from proposition 5 from Blizzard seems the most logical to deter people from swapping gear, as a loss of a NV stack is monumental with comparing a 4 stack and a 5 stack. Thus, our X will be 'loss of 1 NV stack'. This I believe is where the most debate may ensue, however this removes the problem of gear swapping entirely and other clauses within the final proposition make this safe to make.
Last is to find Y. I believe this should be 3-5 minutes. If you're finding more than 2 legit item upgrades constantly within 3-5 minutes that ALL have the magic find affix, well you sir or madam, should go by a lottery ticket. At this point, the number should be derived from the chances of getting 2 upgrades within this Y time that both have magic find as an added affix. I actually believe the timer could be like 10 or even maybe 30 minutes, but that is a little too excessive.
All in all we find ourselves to a final proposition that I believe to be a better and more solid solution to the issue being addressed:
Quote from name="Final Proposition" »
When an item is swapped with another item that has Magic Find as an affix, you will lose a stack of Nephalem Valor for every item with Magic Find as an affix swapped in within 3-5 minutes of the most recent item swapped
Example:
I swap my amulet for one with 35% magic find. I get the aforementioned debuff.
I swap my ring for one with 10% magic find. I lose a stack of NV if I have one.
I continue swapping out my gear 10000 times, each time with some % of magic find. I lose a stack of NV each swap, if I have one.
MF takes effect 180 seconds after gear is equipped.
Problem. Fucking. Solved. It would make using MF gear illegitimately completely ineffectual.
Yes, because adding a needless annoyance to a large portion of the playerbase who does not set-swap is a great solution. There are better ways than making me wait around 3 minutes if I equip an upgrade I just found.
Of course, this isn't a terrible suggestion either, I just think better alternatives exist. for example, the suggestion on this forum of waiting X minutes for MF increases to take affect, which doesn't penalize players for swapping gear in general.
MF takes effect 180 seconds after gear is equipped.
Problem. Fucking. Solved. It would make using MF gear illegitimately completely ineffectual.
Yes, because adding a needless annoyance to a large portion of the playerbase who does not set-swap is a great solution. There are better ways than making me wait around 3 minutes if I equip an upgrade I just found.
Of course, this isn't a terrible suggestion either, I just think better alternatives exist. for example, the suggestion on this forum of waiting X minutes for MF increases to take affect, which doesn't penalize players for swapping gear in general.
yes, because something that has no impact on you unless you're trying to exploit the system is annoying in any way to legit players.
'A better solution than Blizzards [sic] 5 for gear swapping'
Ok, great. Let's have a loo- HEY WAIT A MINUTE.
When an item is swapped with another item that has Magic Find as an affix, you will lose a stack of Nephalem Valor for every item with Magic Find as an affix swapped in within 3-5 minutes of the most recent item swapped
There's a whole class of solutions that interact with Nephalem Valor. For example, we could remove a stack of Nephalem Valor when you swap a piece of gear.
Dunno about you, but that sounds exactly the same. You've just gone into a bit more detail, which, y'know, Blizzard would do if they used this method.
It, as I stated, is a solution brought on by combining and tweaking #4 and #5. I see where the title is misleading. So yes, their #5 would fall under my solution because of how general and broad their statement is. I have thrown in a clause to the original post to hopefully clear up this misconception as I am unable to edit thread title.
MF takes effect 180 seconds after gear is equipped.
Problem. Fucking. Solved. It would make using MF gear illegitimately completely ineffectual.
Yes, because adding a needless annoyance to a large portion of the playerbase who does not set-swap is a great solution. There are better ways than making me wait around 3 minutes if I equip an upgrade I just found.
Of course, this isn't a terrible suggestion either, I just think better alternatives exist. for example, the suggestion on this forum of waiting X minutes for MF increases to take affect, which doesn't penalize players for swapping gear in general.
yes, because something that has no impact on you unless you're trying to exploit the system is annoying in any way to legit players.
Not sure what you read exactly...
It does affect me.
1. I find a new piece of gear that is an upgrade.
2. I equip it.
3. I have to wait 3 minutes for my MF to come back before I start farming again.
What about that don't you understand? I can... type.. more slowly if you need me to. And I have never once gear swapped before killing a pack; my gear has tons of MF and it is good enough to farm Acts I & II in. I am the type of player that should not be affected *in any way* by this change. Yeesh, do you just reactively get hostile or do you first try to understand what someone said to you (that is a rhetorical question BTW)?
MF takes effect 180 seconds after gear is equipped.
Problem. Fucking. Solved. It would make using MF gear illegitimately completely ineffectual.
Yes, because adding a needless annoyance to a large portion of the playerbase who does not set-swap is a great solution. There are better ways than making me wait around 3 minutes if I equip an upgrade I just found.
Of course, this isn't a terrible suggestion either, I just think better alternatives exist. for example, the suggestion on this forum of waiting X minutes for MF increases to take affect, which doesn't penalize players for swapping gear in general.
yes, because something that has no impact on you unless you're trying to exploit the system is annoying in any way to legit players.
Not sure what you read exactly...
It does affect me.
1. I find a new piece of gear that is an upgrade.
2. I equip it.
3. I have to wait 3 minutes for my MF to come back before I start farming again.
What about that don't you understand? I can... type.. more slowly if you need me to. And I have never once gear swapped before killing a pack; my gear has tons of MF and it is good enough to farm Acts I & II in. I am the type of player that should not be affected *in any way* by this change. Yeesh, do you just reactively get hostile or do you first try to understand what someone said to you (that is a rhetorical question BTW)?
Yeah, the idea that MF goes to zero on a switch isn't great.
However, making an MF upgrade take 3 minutes to active isn't bad. First, how often do you find a piece of armor that's an upgrade that also has MF? And how often does that MF make any serious difference? I think that was what blujay meant.
So, if I have 45% MF on a glove and a belt, and then swap out my ammy (which has 0 mf) with one that has 10% MF, I still have the 45% MF. I just don't get that extra 10 for 3 minutes.
I posit that you aren't finding enough upgrades a night to remotely suggest equiping one slows you down.
So, you're logic is that infrequent annoyances are ok, even when better alternatives exist? I posit that you have not thought this through.
I'm saying I should never be bothered to sit around for X minutes when equipping an upgrade. I don't care if that happens once a night or once a week. Better alternatives exist, so why chose an inferior one? Just make people wait for an MF *upgrade* to take affect. The concept is the same, it solves the same "problem" (I'm not convinced this is actually a problem, but meh), and it *never* punishes players who aren't MF swapping. I don't understand why it is even an argument.
So, if I have 45% MF on a glove and a belt, and then swap out my ammy (which has 0 mf) with one that has 10% MF, I still have the 45% MF. I just don't get that extra 10 for 3 minutes.
Exactly. I wasn't the first to suggest that (I read it here in another thread), but it sounds like a great solution to me and it doesn't punish anyone, ever. I don't mind waiting 3 minutes for that extra 5% or whatever. I do mind sitting around doing nothing because I swapped a single piece of gear that had nothing to do with MF. I'm not saying it is a game breaking change for me, I just don't see why it should be implemented in a way that affects people who aren't swapping for MF.
EDIT: Oh, and on topic; no, this idea is awful. It is overly complex and I don't want you touching my NV, ever. Leave it alone, go for a simple and effective solution. The fact that it took you 10 paragraphs to explain this means it is almost certainly a bad idea.
I posit that you aren't finding enough upgrades a night to remotely suggest equiping one slows you down.
So, you're logic is that infrequent annoyances are ok, even when better alternatives exist? I posit that you have not thought this through.
Kill champ pack.
Find upgrade.
Equip.
Take a minute or two to get to another champ pack.
Take a minute or two to kill it.
MF penalty had little to no effect (unless you assume the occasional rare from a white mob).
This "amg I can't farm for 3 minutes" idea is the "not thought out" part. You just can't kill the last mob for 3 minutes, which I posit would take about or greater than 3 minutes to get from death of pack A to death of pack B.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Anything I say can't, and won't be used against me because if they understood my point, they'd have given up theirs." -Christopher Hitchens
I posit that you aren't finding enough upgrades a night to remotely suggest equiping one slows you down.
So, you're logic is that infrequent annoyances are ok, even when better alternatives exist? I posit that you have not thought this through.
Kill champ pack.
Find upgrade.
Equip.
Take a minute or two to get to another champ pack.
Take a minute or two to kill it.
MF penalty had little to no effect (unless you assume the occasional rare from a white mob).
This "amg I can't farm for 3 minutes" idea is the "not thought out" part. You just can't kill the last mob for 3 minutes, which I posit would take about or greater than 3 minutes to get from death of pack A to death of pack B.
Wow, I'm not sure how else to explain this to you. Have you never run into two champ packs within three minutes of one another? So, how about this analogy?
You have to decide on a route to work. You can take the freeway, or the side roads. The freeway is almost always congested and you will likely need to leave 5 minutes earlier to get to work on time. Which do you chose? Both will ultimately get you where you need to be without serious consequence, but one is obviously the better choice.
Based off of your comments here, I bet you choose the freeway. Answer my question; when presented with two options that accomplish the same goal, but one has a down side that the other does not, which do you chose? I can't believe you are actually arguing this. If you disagree with my assessment fine; tell me what I am wrong about.
If you go back and read what I actually wrote, I made it very clear (contrary to the hostility that ensured) that I didn't think that BluJay's proposition was terrible, I just thought it could be improved upon.
So, if I have 45% MF on a glove and a belt, and then swap out my ammy (which has 0 mf) with one that has 10% MF, I still have the 45% MF. I just don't get that extra 10 for 3 minutes.
Exactly. I wasn't the first to suggest that (I read it here in another thread), but it sounds like a great solution to me and it doesn't punish anyone, ever. I don't mind waiting 3 minutes for that extra 5% or whatever. I do mind sitting around doing nothing because I swapped a single piece of gear that had nothing to do with MF. I'm not saying it is a game breaking change for me, I just don't see why it should be implemented in a way that affects people who aren't swapping for MF.
In re-reading Blizzard's proposals, this is functionally the same as Option 3 - use the lowest MF from gear you've had in the last few minutes. It has the one exception of being easier to explain, as it's not an ongoing count, but only activated on gear swap. So, anytime you swap gear that increases MF, your MF counter in the detailed stays the same number, but highlights blue. Mousing over it gives a tooltip that it takes X seconds for any MF upgrade to take affect. Alternately, they could just make a status debuff icon that says something like "MF increase will activate in X seconds." It'd make it clear what was going on the very first time someone puts on MF gear, long before they get to the point of gear swapping.
EDIT: Oh, and on topic; no, this idea is awful. It is overly complex and I don't want you touching my NV, ever. Leave it alone, go for a simple and effective solution. The fact that it took you 10 paragraphs to explain this means it is almost certainly a bad idea.
Agreed. Do NOT go messing with my NV. It's even worse that the quote above you example seems to indicate it's additive (in that swapping one item removes one NV, and swapping a second removes two, for a total of three lost).
You lose NV stacks on this idea on the sole action of swapping an item for another that has MF. Get an upgrade, fine! Get an upgrade with MF, fine! Get two upgrades, both with MF within 3 minutes of each other.. well then youre waiting 3 minutes to use one of them. The chances of finding two solid upgrades within 3 minutes of each other, both having magic find on it are miniscule to the point this does not affect anyone except people who plan to swap out gear to gain an added bonus to magic find.
You lose NV stacks on this idea on the sole action of swapping an item for another that has MF. Get an upgrade, fine! Get an upgrade with MF, fine! Get two upgrades, both with MF within 3 minutes of each other.. well then youre waiting 3 minutes to use one of them. The chances of finding two solid upgrades within 3 minutes of each other, both having magic find on it are miniscule to the point this does not affect anyone except people who plan to swap out gear to gain an added bonus to magic find.
No, I see how it's "not that big a deal" but I feel there are better ways then doing it then reducing the NV stack.
Just make the cooldown on MF apply to each piece, ie if you have 50% MF and you swap your glove with no MF for one with 5% MF, you sit on 50% for X minutes and then you're on 55% MF. 2-3 minutes-ish sounds right to me. For normal purposes this should be no real burden.
Personally I don't really care what they do, but I'd love to have a gear swap like D2:LOD had (well only a weapon swap, that'd be fine as well). Not even for MF gear necessarily, it was just a really handy feature.
So, if I have 45% MF on a glove and a belt, and then swap out my ammy (which has 0 mf) with one that has 10% MF, I still have the 45% MF. I just don't get that extra 10 for 3 minutes.
Best solution I've seen so far.
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This thread is for finding a solution and NOT debating whether a solution is needed or not. Please refrain from the debate of whether something should be done and only focus on creating a solution since Blizzard has already acknowledge this as a problem and is finding a solution.
From all 5 options, which ones are best vary from opinion to opinion, but if the "issue" of gear swapping is to be addressed, I think it best to approach the issue as follows:
The issue is the action of swapping out gear.
The fix must be directly related to swapping out gear for added MF.
Therefore, upon swapping out a single item for one with MF, let us say 'X' will happen.
current proposition:
Now, follow through with instance of when someone would swap out gear.
Most simply, people have been swapping out gear for either
1) To get an added MF/GF bonus
2) To upgrade an existing item
It is illogical to penalize an individual for finding an upgrade, thus, taking the idea posted by a Blue that over time, the rate of finding an upgrade will slowly decrease, we can come to the conclusion that swapping 1 item should not incur penalty AND the duration for which a penalty can be applied should exist for a miniscule amount of time as compared to the chances of finding an upgrade. This brings us to:
The action taken will affect after swapping more than 1 item with MF within a duration of Y minutes.
updated proposition:
This is the core of the proposition, all that is left finding a time and an action. Taking the action from proposition 5 from Blizzard seems the most logical to deter people from swapping gear, as a loss of a NV stack is monumental with comparing a 4 stack and a 5 stack. Thus, our X will be 'loss of 1 NV stack'. This I believe is where the most debate may ensue, however this removes the problem of gear swapping entirely and other clauses within the final proposition make this safe to make.
Last is to find Y. I believe this should be 3-5 minutes. If you're finding more than 2 legit item upgrades constantly within 3-5 minutes that ALL have the magic find affix, well you sir or madam, should go by a lottery ticket. At this point, the number should be derived from the chances of getting 2 upgrades within this Y time that both have magic find as an added affix. I actually believe the timer could be like 10 or even maybe 30 minutes, but that is a little too excessive.
All in all we find ourselves to a final proposition that I believe to be a better and more solid solution to the issue being addressed:
Example:
I swap my amulet for one with 35% magic find. I get the aforementioned debuff.
I swap my ring for one with 10% magic find. I lose a stack of NV if I have one.
I continue swapping out my gear 10000 times, each time with some % of magic find. I lose a stack of NV each swap, if I have one.
MF takes effect 180 seconds after gear is equipped.
Problem. Fucking. Solved. It would make using MF gear illegitimately completely ineffectual.
Yes, because adding a needless annoyance to a large portion of the playerbase who does not set-swap is a great solution. There are better ways than making me wait around 3 minutes if I equip an upgrade I just found.
Of course, this isn't a terrible suggestion either, I just think better alternatives exist. for example, the suggestion on this forum of waiting X minutes for MF increases to take affect, which doesn't penalize players for swapping gear in general.
yes, because something that has no impact on you unless you're trying to exploit the system is annoying in any way to legit players.
Ok, great. Let's have a loo- HEY WAIT A MINUTE.
Dunno about you, but that sounds exactly the same. You've just gone into a bit more detail, which, y'know, Blizzard would do if they used this method.
Not sure what you read exactly...
It does affect me.
1. I find a new piece of gear that is an upgrade.
2. I equip it.
3. I have to wait 3 minutes for my MF to come back before I start farming again.
What about that don't you understand? I can... type.. more slowly if you need me to. And I have never once gear swapped before killing a pack; my gear has tons of MF and it is good enough to farm Acts I & II in. I am the type of player that should not be affected *in any way* by this change. Yeesh, do you just reactively get hostile or do you first try to understand what someone said to you (that is a rhetorical question BTW)?
However, making an MF upgrade take 3 minutes to active isn't bad. First, how often do you find a piece of armor that's an upgrade that also has MF? And how often does that MF make any serious difference? I think that was what blujay meant.
So, if I have 45% MF on a glove and a belt, and then swap out my ammy (which has 0 mf) with one that has 10% MF, I still have the 45% MF. I just don't get that extra 10 for 3 minutes.
So, you're logic is that infrequent annoyances are ok, even when better alternatives exist? I posit that you have not thought this through.
I'm saying I should never be bothered to sit around for X minutes when equipping an upgrade. I don't care if that happens once a night or once a week. Better alternatives exist, so why chose an inferior one? Just make people wait for an MF *upgrade* to take affect. The concept is the same, it solves the same "problem" (I'm not convinced this is actually a problem, but meh), and it *never* punishes players who aren't MF swapping. I don't understand why it is even an argument.
Exactly. I wasn't the first to suggest that (I read it here in another thread), but it sounds like a great solution to me and it doesn't punish anyone, ever. I don't mind waiting 3 minutes for that extra 5% or whatever. I do mind sitting around doing nothing because I swapped a single piece of gear that had nothing to do with MF. I'm not saying it is a game breaking change for me, I just don't see why it should be implemented in a way that affects people who aren't swapping for MF.
EDIT: Oh, and on topic; no, this idea is awful. It is overly complex and I don't want you touching my NV, ever. Leave it alone, go for a simple and effective solution. The fact that it took you 10 paragraphs to explain this means it is almost certainly a bad idea.
Oh my God I hope you are trolling....
Find upgrade.
Equip.
Take a minute or two to get to another champ pack.
Take a minute or two to kill it.
MF penalty had little to no effect (unless you assume the occasional rare from a white mob).
This "amg I can't farm for 3 minutes" idea is the "not thought out" part. You just can't kill the last mob for 3 minutes, which I posit would take about or greater than 3 minutes to get from death of pack A to death of pack B.
Wow, I'm not sure how else to explain this to you. Have you never run into two champ packs within three minutes of one another? So, how about this analogy?
You have to decide on a route to work. You can take the freeway, or the side roads. The freeway is almost always congested and you will likely need to leave 5 minutes earlier to get to work on time. Which do you chose? Both will ultimately get you where you need to be without serious consequence, but one is obviously the better choice.
Based off of your comments here, I bet you choose the freeway. Answer my question; when presented with two options that accomplish the same goal, but one has a down side that the other does not, which do you chose? I can't believe you are actually arguing this. If you disagree with my assessment fine; tell me what I am wrong about.
If you go back and read what I actually wrote, I made it very clear (contrary to the hostility that ensured) that I didn't think that BluJay's proposition was terrible, I just thought it could be improved upon.
Agreed. Do NOT go messing with my NV. It's even worse that the quote above you example seems to indicate it's additive (in that swapping one item removes one NV, and swapping a second removes two, for a total of three lost).
No, I see how it's "not that big a deal" but I feel there are better ways then doing it then reducing the NV stack.
Personally I don't really care what they do, but I'd love to have a gear swap like D2:LOD had (well only a weapon swap, that'd be fine as well). Not even for MF gear necessarily, it was just a really handy feature.
Best solution I've seen so far.