So they decided to do something else with Primals.
However, there's no reason why something like this couldn't and even should done based on Ancients instead of Primals.
Read the following topic using Deckard's Cain voice and always replacing the word "Primal" with the word "Ancient".
We all agreed that Primals must be more than boring mainstat buffers. I was wondering if we could update the good old Runeword system by following, in order to increase the build variety:
There would roll a random rune in front of Primal's name, like "Tal Primal Ancient Warmonger".
Could be any other rune as well.
When a player equips a runeword consisting of Primals like TalEthUm, the character gets that Runeword, being for example, "+120% more damage to channeling skills" (or then that runeword would give a certain boost to one of the skills for every class, like to 150% to Disintegrate, 200% to Whirlwind, 100% Rapid Fire etc.)
NOTE! One rune (one Primal) can crossover multiple Runewords if the rune exists in both.
Propably set items shouldn't roll with a Rune (or should they?)
Primals could now roll without increased stats
but still near the highest stats and maybe with 2 stat rolls.
Primals could have now a slightly increased droprate.
Every salvaged Primal would now yield a imbueable Rune.
Combos and depth are endless. The propablity to roll the most optimal Primal gear with desired runes is very small so everyone would have to think by themselves what to do with the build. Imagine the Ourobros rolling with a good rune and you would equip it thanks to that. Not used legendaries would have chance to be used.
"There would be anyway one build that rules them all"
Was the most common complain I heard about. It's true, but taking how rare Primals are, it's extremely unlikely that you would ever get the desired combo of the most optimal Primal legendaries and runes imbued to them.
"It's just RNG on top of RNG"
We have basically 8 - 10 piece sets as every 6 piece sets have such a mandatory supporting legendaries. There's pretty much no viable Marauder6 without Bombardier's Rucksack or no viable UE DH without Yang's Recurve and so on. I'd love to have this mixed up. It'd so exciting to know, that our set-in-stone builds had a possibility to be overwhelmed any time by the drops. Now be basically wait for a better Ancient that has 1% more of something. And that's so boring.
The most important aspect with the Runeword Primal idea is that every single legendary would have a chance to be used. Currently one of our biggest issue with D3 is exactly that there's so mandatory legendaries so we don't have to think almost at all. Imagine Pandemonium Loop ring to drop with a rune that fullfills a runeword and then you actually might change your build with a Pandemonium Loop which now wouldn't be the case. After that, you would start to look gear that Fears the monsters and so on.
At least the idea is definitely something worth considering. The much praised D2 had so rare items that I never get them. And that's ok as it is what ARPG's are supposed to be: there should be always a small chanceto have something exciting behind the corner. Now we don't really.
Disclaimer: I'm really not a fan of of making Reaper of Souls a modern D2. For that reason, I have been very sceptical about bringing back Runewords, charms, the old skill tree...
However, I think that your proposal is a really elegant idea that certainly merits serious consideration by Blizzard! I would love to see the developers test this concept over a couple of PTRs or so, to give it enough time to evolve. Thanks for the huge amount of thought and work that you have put into this :-)
So an indirect buff to LoN builds? I think this is a great idea but how would one know what runes would go together? And what if the runes doesn't work together? Isn't that gonna make it counter productive?
Here are some of my ideas:
-Each primal ancient have a slot for a rune.
-Primal ancient need not to have increased stats but of higher rolls than normal ancients.
-Runes are dropped in-game and have the same drop rate as Primal ancients.
-Primal ancients can be converted into runes through kanai's cube with some ingredients(maybe one of each act materials)
-Likewise a normal ancient can be converted into primal using a rune and other materials(will reroll the stats of that item)
-Rune binding- certain item slots are bound and will combine the runes they in them.
Jewelries: necklace and 2 rings
Armor: helm, pants, chest and boots
Weapon: main-hand and off-hand
(2handed weapon could have 2 rune slots maybe but crusaders will have an advantage, so not sure how to make this work)
That's too many layers of RNG even for Blizzard... and they do love their RNG. I'd rather they just re-introduced runes themselves as they once were. Also, going with the idea that you can auto-fill the cube now, runes could be treated in the same way and the interface could just light up what's available with an auto-fill button so you can't mess up.
To have runewords as a subset of such a specific item is overkill that would make people ragequit. I don't want to have to find:
The best roll
The item needs to be primal
It needs to be the correct item
It needs to have the correct rune
Even Brevik has said that randomness was something they felt wasn't done right in D2 because there were great items that were too rare. He gave the case of someone just getting straight up lucky after an hour compared to someone with 50 hours playtime. It just breeds frustration.
^Well argumented. One option would be to forget Primals and just add the Runes or Relics into Ancients... or then we could have every other Ancient to be a Primal that would be guaranteed quality drop. I respectfully disagree with item needing to be the correct one. I'm very bored among the many others to have the very usual and mandatory supporting legendaries and that's why the whole idea is born. I think players are too obsessed to have the leaderboard top 100 builds but that's why we discuss the design direction: the community members enjoys different things. I want to dream that there could be always something exciting behind the corner, not only hunting for the 1% better another Ancient.
That being said, I would gladly welcome traditional runes, but personally I would like to have a possibilty to imbue one looted rune per each item and thus combining the runewords throughout the equipped gear.
Edit: It's worth noticing that character can have multiple runewords crossing the same rune if let's say Tir rune is in two runewords, it's needed only in one item if the other items form the rest of the two runewords.
Thank you. I appreciate it a lot. I'm glad that people can see the possibilities of the concept. Sure it needs some thinking but once implemented correctly, it is able to triple the criticized build variety.
i think, primals can't provide new powers, that would lock players from
playing some builds and would cause alot of frustration to them.
Now that Primals are for the different purpose, we have two different paths for more thoughtful itemization when using Relic or Rune system (6 piece sets with 3 to 5 supporting legendaries... well that's an issue to work on!):
1. Rune / Relic imbued to every at least ancient item as a random default roll.
2. Runes or Relics are a rare dropping loot that can be imbued into every at least ancient item through expensive cube recipe.
Pros and cons of both:
1. Imbued runes / relics rolling by default
+ A huge amount of builds before the very endgame as it takes some time to get the most desired item with the correct rune if we have a wide pool of Runes / Relics.
- Player is at the mercy of RNG. (But I find that exciting. We would have to think whether a new runeword is more profitable than the most powerful legendary. However, rune from the desired item should be able to transferred into a Primal version of the same item via Cube if you happen to have the Primal version.)
2. Looted Runes / Relics
+ Perfectly up to player to decide where to place his Rune. Exciting to wait rare Runes to drop.
- Doesn't affect on the build variety as much. Players would simply imbue these to their perfect Yang's Recurves and so on. (However, it still increases the possible build combos as in both systems, player would have some additional extra abilities thorughout their equipped gear. It takes some time to figure out the endgame combos)
Looted Runes are pretty much modernized D2 system whereas Rune Imbued randomly by default is actually a whole new system which has not much to do with D2 but could be something determing for D3 as Legendary Gems are. I would gladly welcome whichever or even both.
It sure will be interesting to see what the end of the year provides as I would be surprised if they didn't have any tweaks to provide to promote Necromancer. For many people, Necromancer never was a thing including me. Sure, I will buy it but after 5 years of release, not-expansion needs something to get people really excited. The game needs some Kanai's Cube-wide system that makes people to tell their friends "have you heard about the new Diablo 3 system? It's awesome!"
Based on these thoughts I made a hybrid that's improved on criticism and suggestions.
A new system besides Kanai's Cube and Legendary gems to increase the build variety and the excitement of the looting.
Every Ancient and every Primal would now roll with a random Relic imbued to them. OR traditional lootable runes and items having a socket for runes only.
Cube Recipe to remove unnecessary RNG:
-The Relic may be taken away from the item and used into another item by an expensive recipes. Costs 1 to 3 Consumables(?)
When a character equips correct Relics, it forms a Relic Revelation that gives player a certain legengary ability or a group of affixes.
One Relic can be part of multiple Relic Revelations!
Each Relic would have a small individual bonus regardless of the other Relics such as "5% additional chance to freeze on hit"
Every salvaged Primal would now yield a imbueable Relic.
Primals COULD have one extra Relic or something alike but only if community agrees.
The recipes would mean that people could upgrade their old items with high price.
The Relic removing cube recipe should be so expensive that there would be a time when player might use the weaker legendary just to get the Revelation bonus. Even the unused legendaries would have a chance to be used if they form a powerful Revelation.
NOTE! The Revelations are currently way out of balance! They must be weighted carefully.
Instead of making multiple Topics, I use this one to introduce the changes for the Relic system. Feel free to prefer the original idea, so do I. Why I'm designing such a compromise system, it's what Blizzard have to do all the time. They have to please huge casual audience and at the same time the core players. Following changes are thanks to different forum criticism.
The Cube Recipe to remove a Relic costs up to 3 consumables.
Why? It would be too hard on players who have worked hard for their gear just to swipe all the work with new build system. With an expensive recipes players could imbue Relics into their beloved gear and on the other hand, fresh seasonal players would have myriad amounts of builds in front of them when they wouldn't have the consumables to simply shift the Relics for the desired gear. Consumables are also something you can't labor work on like bounty mats, using it would make the Relic system more of what ARPG should be.
Each Relic would have a small individual bonus regardless of the other Relics such as "5% additional chance to freeze on hit"
A traditional idea from a member called RDS. It would multiply the different build options. When character would have a Revelation that asks for two of the same Relic type, for example the chance to freeze on hit bonus would be then 10%. And the Relics would be for a use even without the Revelations.
The more I think of it, the more I accept that this alternation suits well for D3. Ancients are acquirable pretty early but only very endgame players with consumables can truly use the Relics where they want. No more season over in one week.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Did you happen to read the Relic alternative from the bottom of the first page? With that I'm trying to make the runeword system modernized and fitting to Diablo 3's atmosphere. You could change the Relic from an item to another but it's made so expensive, that it would be done mostly in the very endgame. I suggested that cube recipe would demand even 3 Consumables so shifting Relics wouldn't be lighthearted.
Consumables are one of the Diablo 3's nicest material as it is not something we have to work with the overalls weared like we do with the bounties. It's the only more traditional material that drops when it drops. That's why I prefer using those and still prefer using always-rolled Relics for each Ancient in order to make the Revelations (runewords) possible for casuals too. That's the way Diablo devs want always to keep the game, available for everyone.
TL,DR; Everyone could form Revelations (runewords) but only the ones who get consumables could force the Relics where they want. The lifetime of the build making would be much more interesting.
^ Well they could allow the trading but probably they won't. I understand that there would be one build that's the best one but that doesn't take away that if there's another dimension in build making like Runewords (or Revelations), there's a lot more combinable options. Just like with cube. Not everyone uses the same cubed powers like Leaderboard number one. The more options how to make at least gr 80 build, the better. D3 is infinite when it comes to GR's so there's always the one build but still people play different builds if they are viable enough.
Even if all Relics would be handed to players, it would increase the build variety if they're at least slightly balanced. Someone would prefer to play with Orlash ("Orlash will now accompany you") and someone would prefer having all the followers following. You got the point. When devs would introduce new runewords each patch, they would have a chance to be used in every build whereas they now bring new item affecting 1 or 2 builds. Hard to balance for sure.
Good points both Shapookya and MKIII. It's good that point of views are shared. I'm all in for everything new that adds another build dimension besides the Cube. And now we can even _dream_ of something new as soon we are going to pay for the content.
The one thing with the Revelations would be that if there were enough of them, there would be always couple of Revelations formed even with Relics that just happened to roll. So they would make a nice bonus anyway on top of the current builds. Of course there would be some Revelations that actually form a build like too revolutionary 6 relic "you may use legendary gems on every socket" revelation.
But so it is, some people like to farm for their builds like LoN Crusaders. And some players want the build finished as soon as possible. I like to anticipate whether something exciting would drop behind the corner on top of my gr80 build and 1% better version of the very same item is not exciting.
Based on hardcore players telling me it would be too harsh to lose all the Relics on death, I made an Imbue alternative, which could cost for example a consumable.
Personally I think this might be too much of what D3 already is but I'm trying to follow criticism here so I made a quick graphical sketch to present the fixed idea. It would be still one Relic per item, meaning that imbuing a Relic would replace if there was an old one, and perhaps the imbuing would cost that Consumable. Notice that player hasn't find half of the relics to Bracers slot but has some of the other Relics for belt and ring slots.