the point system was there in the first diablo. I can see some of the things that the new diablo team is doing, somethings I like, somethings I don't. a lot of the things they are doing seem pretty dull, and expected. I know that every RPG is different but it seems like they are doing things in a way to follow some other RPG mold rather than that of diablo. rather than just throw out the old system there are ways to do things to give better feel and control over the players build, skills, and gears, I don't think you want to over simplify and leave it just to where you basicly hack and slash or to where things are so complicated and convoluted that people lose interest. Give a small amount of control in each aspect that has a basic understanding that everyone can easily learn and utilize, Allowing some control over the build is not a bad thing just the implementation was not the best...
You know a lot of people on this forum get flack just for mentioning WoW, but you have to admit that somethings they are doing are kinda similiar, and I think that those that really do love diablo and loved it for what it was have a right to voice their opinion on it. And I also know somethings people just voice their opinion because it's not another D2 which is that old gamer mentality of keeping what "worked." I'm all for new things, just not the way it seems that they are gearing the game in a different direction that follows a pretty dull mold IMHO.
there are ways of implementing these systems a little better. maybe even raising the amount of points given for each level, not so much that it out weighs the gear or skills but enough to add that final edge to a player and differentiate it from their peers who selected a different route. but do it in a simple way(just putting out idea's I don't know about balancing I'm just throwing stuff out there) Like making 2-3 different build routes that can infleunce your skills and gear and how you work them together. I think there is something still there and rather than getting rid of it I think there's room for growth rather than just changing molds.
I just think that maybe instead of throwing out a system try to improve it. because it is one of many big things that really give it the feel of diablo. so I don't like the idea of throwing it out, I rather think maybe they improve on it instead of saying "this other system works great in this other RPG lets implement it here."
Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but it does to me. anyway I'm tired of typing. those are my 2 cents.
For me it comes down to this...
Diablo: not an RPG. Does not necessarily require a complex stat system. May have one just for fun.
Diablo I: had a simple stat system that worked out fine. Whatever.
Diablo II: had a strange stat system that was imbalanced as hell and didn't work fine at all. Change it, revert to old, or thrash it.
Reverting to old is not possible because of skills. Thrashing would not harm Diablo. Changing may. Thrashing is safer. Hence, the developers stopped pretending that their Diablo game is little more than a mindless hacking game and simplified the system.
Yeah, they could have made a more complex system. Trust me, we don't need a more complex system, or else we'd be all playing DnD instead of Diablo right now. I don't want to sit and make calculations regarding where should I put the points to SURVIVE. I don't want to read guides along the lines of "put 3 points in Dex then 4 in Vit then 1 in Eng then...", either. If you can't do it well, don't do it at all. By the law of degradation, DIII will be worse than DII, hence do not make it anymore worse than DII already was by repeating DII's mistakes...
They worked... they just didn't make any difference. If I kicked them out of DI or DII the game would stay exactly the same for me. Actually, it would be more enjoyable (especially DII). So I support the whole chucking out idea.
And stats are not simple at all, I'm afraid. If they were, they wouldn't have so much trouble with them in DII. They're much more complex than items and skills because stats basically affect everything you do. They affect items, they affect skills, and making stats stagnant would make balancing the game 10x times easier, hence produce a 10x better game minus the customization stats offered (0 for me).
And I believe a developer can do everything they want, even if a few DII fanboys can't live without a singer barb or some other rubbish.
An introduction of something new is followed by:
a) improvement of that something;
revision of that something;
c) removal of that something.
All 3 are progressive steps on development. Sometimes you have to say "this doesn't work" and get it out of there.
you suggest that adding depth makes it overly complicated and not worth the effort...not anything what my post was about. My post simply stated that I believe there are elegant solutions that don't over complicate things that can add just that little bit of depth without straying to far from the path. I don't think that is too hard to achieve or even try or even speculate on.
And to say that it's overly complicated may not be the truth either. I don't know and I'm sure you don't have the proof either. So it's not a very good arguement to make, If you set limits on the amount of stats you can have from the beginning you set your items, skills, and equips accordingly...depending on how you start the process can make it substantially less complicated than you try to make it out. Regardless of your opinion unless you are a developer the statements made about the complexity and the work to implement new idea's are invalid.
Agreed that they aren't simple, but they do seem to be pretty important in a game like Diablo.
They made no difference in neither DI nor DII, hence they're not important at all. How can something that makes no difference be important?
Quote from "Doppelganger;367830 »
btw, i played singers, and i pwnt with them heavily. Also, best goldfinders ever.
Too bad the very presence of singers signals bad character design + bad balancing.
Quote from "Osky"" »
not anything what my post was about.
I really have no clue who you are. Doppel was very active in this thread and basically I was replying to him and anyone who'd care to read my post.
Quote from "Osky" »
I don't know and I'm sure you don't have the proof either. So it's not a very good arguement to make, If you set limits on the amount of stats you can have from the beginning you set your items, skills, and equips accordingly...depending on how you start the process can make it substantially less complicated than you try to make it out. Regardless of your opinion unless you are a developer the statements made about the complexity and the work to implement new idea's are invalid.
I have my own reasons for believing things. If you disagree with me, you will never understand my reasons no matter how well I describe them, so I don't. If you want to go around saying people have bad arguments, go back to debate school. This is a forum. We don't write essays here.
Make them important? Instead of, not even bothering. I know one thing, they shouldbe important, without a doubt.
But that isn't what we were talking about. You were saying they were very important. I said they're not important. Now you're saying they can be made important. So you're agreeing that they're not important? Or what?
I have my own reasons for believing things. If you disagree with me, you will never understand my reasons no matter how well I describe them, so I don't. If you want to go around saying people have bad arguments, go back to debate school. This is a forum. We don't write essays here.
lol....regardless of your personal and subjective opinion it's still simple to state adding a depth does not make things more complicated and can offer a more satisfying gameplay to a variety of people. I'm not saying that there is really anything essentially wrong with taking it out and making it auto I just think it would be more enjoyable to implement it more effectively. To say it's impossible or implausable, or even just a risk to great for them to take is just someone venting their own issues with the past diablos.
I'm saying if you want to ask a person to explain something, do not start attacking their post with "You have no argument" or similar rubbish. Because there's no point in that: you're already saying you will ignore what that person has to say. So stop talking to me or fix your attitude.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
Anyways, i don't see how not even bothering with them and putting all of your money on items, which imo were just as much broken, or even more so, then purely the attributes could help anything.
Personally, the game is all about skills, and if they fix the stash, it will be about items. That's where the game ends. It was never a very deep game, lol.
I'm saying if you want to ask a person to explain something, do not start attacking their post with "You have no argument" or similar rubbish. Because there's no point in that: you're already saying you will ignore what that person has to say. So stop talking to me or fix your attitude.
Okay then.
Quote from "Equinox" »
Reverting to old is not possible because of skills. Thrashing would not harm Diablo. Changing may. Thrashing is safer. Hence, the developers stopped pretending that their Diablo game is little more than a mindless hacking game and simplified the system.
I didn't know it was confirmed that the system was implemented and that blizzard released those details.
But either way, I mistook your original post direct at mine because it ran along the same lines as dopple. I don't care about making arguements and thats not really what I ment...I was intending to make an open ended discussion of possibilities and not people just try to point out it's flaws. There are many roads there isn't one thats right, it is after all just a game. I just wanted to see what people's opinions were of a different system that was simple and didn't offset the Equips or the Skills, but was still able to enhance and create a satisfying more unique and distinguished build.
The reason stats in D2 as of "now" are considered pointless, is because we veteran players know the requiremens of almost every type of weapon and armor in D2. So we create the "cookie cutter" method.
It took people a long time to understand how stats were used, and how not to waste stat points (considering a specific biuld.)
By taking away manual stats, we cut that time in half at least. From the start of D3 all that will ever matter is equipment?! How boring does that sound!!
Example:
I want to kill someone (duel) that has a better weapon and armor, but at his sacrifice of vatility to weild such things.
I have more life, and i take more hits, I win the fight.
If they would more than double the differences in weapons and armors compared to D2, then using stats would be more exciting. We have mastered D2 in this concept, we know all the types of weapons and their requirments.
I say, keep the manual stats, but instead if this -30% Req on weapons and armor etc, I suggest that ANY weapon or armor has a completely UNIQUE requirement (strength,dex,lvl, etc.)
Example: Lets say me and 3 other people, are out questing, or just out killing shit....After killing many monsters an Ornate Plate hits the ground, its mine, I look at the stat req's....Strength requires 140, and a lvl of 47......Another teamate also grabs an Ornate Plate, the requirments on his are 120 Str, and a lvl of 59....
Same for every single item in the game, give weapons the godly ability to be light and powerful, or give me a weapon with extreme requirments to posses its power.
Depending on how strong you are, depicts how badass of a weapon you may weild. Sounds familiar doesnt it?
Conclusion-- Keep manual stats, but make every item be randomly configured to have different requirments to weild. Make the weapon selection and weapon requirements VAST.
Having an Ornate plate with a low requirments, but huge defence is great.
But by having an ornate that requires 200 strength, you unlock modifications in the aror that make it absolutely bullet proof.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you.
I just wanted to see what people's opinions were of a different system that was simple and didn't offset the Equips or the Skills, but was still able to enhance and create a satisfying more unique and distinguished build.
But I really dunno if that would actually work, especially the way DIII skills are... and from the size of that post, you can understand it isn't exactly a simple system.
The stat system is also unsymmetric. STR is not opposite to ENG, even though it sorta should be. DEX and VIT are dangling somewhere there. I liked the Rage of Mages stat system way better because it clearly had might and magic opposing each other, although they screwed up with ranged big time...
So what would a different system be? I can provide tons of different systems, but I really don't feel we need them.
4 stats seems simple. Just 4 stats. But it ended up being complex. So how simple is simple?
So what would a different system be? I can provide tons of different systems, but I really don't feel we need them.
4 stats seems simple. Just 4 stats. But it ended up being complex. So how simple is simple?
I agree with Equinox. A good point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you.
Shifter said it best. We and many others who played D2 a lot...we simply know the game inside and out. The stats now are basically automatic for us depending on the gear our build for whatever character were making will use.
Shifter said it best. We and many others who played D2 a lot...we simply know the game inside and out. The stats now are basically automatic for us depending on the gear our build for whatever character were making will use.
Which is why Blizzard is making it automatic. Diablo 2, the oldies knew the game inside and out, and basically nobody could get in without a shit load of studying the game. Blizzard is trying to make Diablo 3 so you can jump right in without worrying about making some stupid little mistake that could ruin your character.
Which is why Blizzard is making it automatic. Diablo 2, the oldies knew the game inside and out, and basically nobody could get in without a shit load of studying the game. Blizzard is trying to make Diablo 3 so you can jump right in without worrying about making some stupid little mistake that could ruin your character.
You inadvertently just proved the point every manual-stats person has been trying to make: Blizzard removing stats is a way of dumbing down the game for newer players. Thread over.
Btw, if you don't want to have to study a game in order to understand it and excel at it, why don't you go play a flash game or something? It sounds like you're saying success in D3 should be based on two things: time input, and mouseclicking skill. Yeehaw..
Hey, at least your vision (which coincides with Blizzard's, unfortunately) is still better than WoW, which lops off that pesky mouseclicking skill part.
Edit: Besides, if you thought D2 required a lot of studying to excel, you really ought to play more RPGs..
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
zsfh-maz of UsWest, 95 BvB king
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Edit: Besides, if you thought D2 required a lot of studying to excel, you really ought to play more RPGs..
And Diablo is not an RPG game so....
Manual stat distribution means that your Wizard character can be as strong as a tank while a Barbarian can be made as fragile as a dry branch. That doesn't make any sense and defies the basic postulates of class distinction they want to achieve in 3. You will still be able to make a fully tanked-out Wizzard by wearing gear with high amounts of armour and vitality, as any class can experiment with any kind of gear now, and since most of the stat points will be coming from your gear (that probably means over 50%), but some classes should still have their own distinct predispositions for certain roles. Otherwise you're just picking your spells and character model. Bleh.
This feels like trying to explain to a child that something is harmful and the child keeps crying until it feels it on it's own skin. Hopefully the few of you will understand things a bit more clearly when you get a chance to play D3. The remark of who should be playing more RPGs is on YOU.
Btw, if you don't want to have to study a game in order to understand it and excel at it, why don't you go play a flash game or something? It sounds like you're saying success in D3 should be based on two things: time input, and mouseclicking skill. Yeehaw..
And why is it bad to want to make a game even for everyone? Allow new players to come into the game and enjoy the world Blizzard has made? Are you afraid a new generation of gamers may come in and, as your generation says, "Uberpwnzer" you?
Quote from "angelmaz" »
Hey, at least your vision (which coincides with Blizzard's, unfortunately) is still better than WoW, which lops off that pesky mouseclicking skill part.
Actually, I have played Diablo 2, for many years, and I have played WoW, for about a year, and from what I have seen, WoW is quite a bit more complex then Diablo 2.
Quote from "angelmaz" »
Edit: Besides, if you thought D2 required a lot of studying to excel, you really ought to play more RPGs..
Ok, Final fantasy, Breath of Fire, Dungeons and Dragons, Diablo 2, pick the one that is not like the others!
Yup, Diablo 2 is the oddball. (A good game, but athe oddball out of the group none-the-less.)
Quote from "Dimebog" »
Manual stat distribution means that your Wizard character can be as strong as a tank while a Barbarian can be made as fragile as a dry branch.
I think that's what they want... A wizard tank or something...
The problem with stats in D2 was how unbalanced they were. Vitality for example, it gave so little health per level that you needed to spend a hell lot of your stat points in it to have a decent health. Energy was only for mana and mana regeneration and had lots of that in the later levels, so nobody put anything there. The only use of Strength was to carry equipment, it didn't boost your physical damage much. And Dexterity = full block.
I think they should've balanced the stats a bit... I mean there are only 4, as Equinox said, and they are Blizzard... they should be able to do it.
I guess it's settled now, it's gonna be auto. It doesn't really bother me but I think it would've been better if they just fixed them
PS: I love Shifter's sig
EDIT: My god, I didn't know my sig was that big... I'm gonna shrink it
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You know a lot of people on this forum get flack just for mentioning WoW, but you have to admit that somethings they are doing are kinda similiar, and I think that those that really do love diablo and loved it for what it was have a right to voice their opinion on it. And I also know somethings people just voice their opinion because it's not another D2 which is that old gamer mentality of keeping what "worked." I'm all for new things, just not the way it seems that they are gearing the game in a different direction that follows a pretty dull mold IMHO.
there are ways of implementing these systems a little better. maybe even raising the amount of points given for each level, not so much that it out weighs the gear or skills but enough to add that final edge to a player and differentiate it from their peers who selected a different route. but do it in a simple way(just putting out idea's I don't know about balancing I'm just throwing stuff out there) Like making 2-3 different build routes that can infleunce your skills and gear and how you work them together. I think there is something still there and rather than getting rid of it I think there's room for growth rather than just changing molds.
I just think that maybe instead of throwing out a system try to improve it. because it is one of many big things that really give it the feel of diablo. so I don't like the idea of throwing it out, I rather think maybe they improve on it instead of saying "this other system works great in this other RPG lets implement it here."
Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but it does to me. anyway I'm tired of typing. those are my 2 cents.
Diablo: not an RPG. Does not necessarily require a complex stat system. May have one just for fun.
Diablo I: had a simple stat system that worked out fine. Whatever.
Diablo II: had a strange stat system that was imbalanced as hell and didn't work fine at all. Change it, revert to old, or thrash it.
Reverting to old is not possible because of skills. Thrashing would not harm Diablo. Changing may. Thrashing is safer. Hence, the developers stopped pretending that their Diablo game is little more than a mindless hacking game and simplified the system.
Yeah, they could have made a more complex system. Trust me, we don't need a more complex system, or else we'd be all playing DnD instead of Diablo right now. I don't want to sit and make calculations regarding where should I put the points to SURVIVE. I don't want to read guides along the lines of "put 3 points in Dex then 4 in Vit then 1 in Eng then...", either. If you can't do it well, don't do it at all. By the law of degradation, DIII will be worse than DII, hence do not make it anymore worse than DII already was by repeating DII's mistakes...
a) improvement of that something;
revision of that something;
c) removal of that something.
All 3 are progressive steps on development. Sometimes you have to say "this doesn't work" and get it out of there.
And stats are not simple at all, I'm afraid. If they were, they wouldn't have so much trouble with them in DII. They're much more complex than items and skills because stats basically affect everything you do. They affect items, they affect skills, and making stats stagnant would make balancing the game 10x times easier, hence produce a 10x better game minus the customization stats offered (0 for me).
And I believe a developer can do everything they want, even if a few DII fanboys can't live without a singer barb or some other rubbish.
you suggest that adding depth makes it overly complicated and not worth the effort...not anything what my post was about. My post simply stated that I believe there are elegant solutions that don't over complicate things that can add just that little bit of depth without straying to far from the path. I don't think that is too hard to achieve or even try or even speculate on.
And to say that it's overly complicated may not be the truth either. I don't know and I'm sure you don't have the proof either. So it's not a very good arguement to make, If you set limits on the amount of stats you can have from the beginning you set your items, skills, and equips accordingly...depending on how you start the process can make it substantially less complicated than you try to make it out. Regardless of your opinion unless you are a developer the statements made about the complexity and the work to implement new idea's are invalid.
Too bad the very presence of singers signals bad character design + bad balancing. I really have no clue who you are. Doppel was very active in this thread and basically I was replying to him and anyone who'd care to read my post.
I have my own reasons for believing things. If you disagree with me, you will never understand my reasons no matter how well I describe them, so I don't. If you want to go around saying people have bad arguments, go back to debate school. This is a forum. We don't write essays here.
lol....regardless of your personal and subjective opinion it's still simple to state adding a depth does not make things more complicated and can offer a more satisfying gameplay to a variety of people. I'm not saying that there is really anything essentially wrong with taking it out and making it auto I just think it would be more enjoyable to implement it more effectively. To say it's impossible or implausable, or even just a risk to great for them to take is just someone venting their own issues with the past diablos.
I didn't know it was confirmed that the system was implemented and that blizzard released those details.
But either way, I mistook your original post direct at mine because it ran along the same lines as dopple. I don't care about making arguements and thats not really what I ment...I was intending to make an open ended discussion of possibilities and not people just try to point out it's flaws. There are many roads there isn't one thats right, it is after all just a game. I just wanted to see what people's opinions were of a different system that was simple and didn't offset the Equips or the Skills, but was still able to enhance and create a satisfying more unique and distinguished build.
It took people a long time to understand how stats were used, and how not to waste stat points (considering a specific biuld.)
By taking away manual stats, we cut that time in half at least. From the start of D3 all that will ever matter is equipment?! How boring does that sound!!
Example:
I want to kill someone (duel) that has a better weapon and armor, but at his sacrifice of vatility to weild such things.
I have more life, and i take more hits, I win the fight.
If they would more than double the differences in weapons and armors compared to D2, then using stats would be more exciting. We have mastered D2 in this concept, we know all the types of weapons and their requirments.
I say, keep the manual stats, but instead if this -30% Req on weapons and armor etc, I suggest that ANY weapon or armor has a completely UNIQUE requirement (strength,dex,lvl, etc.)
Example: Lets say me and 3 other people, are out questing, or just out killing shit....After killing many monsters an Ornate Plate hits the ground, its mine, I look at the stat req's....Strength requires 140, and a lvl of 47......Another teamate also grabs an Ornate Plate, the requirments on his are 120 Str, and a lvl of 59....
Same for every single item in the game, give weapons the godly ability to be light and powerful, or give me a weapon with extreme requirments to posses its power.
Depending on how strong you are, depicts how badass of a weapon you may weild. Sounds familiar doesnt it?
Conclusion-- Keep manual stats, but make every item be randomly configured to have different requirments to weild. Make the weapon selection and weapon requirements VAST.
Having an Ornate plate with a low requirments, but huge defence is great.
But by having an ornate that requires 200 strength, you unlock modifications in the aror that make it absolutely bullet proof.
Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you.
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13004
But I really dunno if that would actually work, especially the way DIII skills are... and from the size of that post, you can understand it isn't exactly a simple system.
The stat system is also unsymmetric. STR is not opposite to ENG, even though it sorta should be. DEX and VIT are dangling somewhere there. I liked the Rage of Mages stat system way better because it clearly had might and magic opposing each other, although they screwed up with ranged big time...
So what would a different system be? I can provide tons of different systems, but I really don't feel we need them.
4 stats seems simple. Just 4 stats. But it ended up being complex. So how simple is simple?
I agree with Equinox. A good point.
Battle not with monsters
lest ye become a monster
and if you gaze into the abyss
the abyss gazes into you.
Which is why Blizzard is making it automatic. Diablo 2, the oldies knew the game inside and out, and basically nobody could get in without a shit load of studying the game. Blizzard is trying to make Diablo 3 so you can jump right in without worrying about making some stupid little mistake that could ruin your character.
You inadvertently just proved the point every manual-stats person has been trying to make: Blizzard removing stats is a way of dumbing down the game for newer players. Thread over.
Btw, if you don't want to have to study a game in order to understand it and excel at it, why don't you go play a flash game or something? It sounds like you're saying success in D3 should be based on two things: time input, and mouseclicking skill. Yeehaw..
Hey, at least your vision (which coincides with Blizzard's, unfortunately) is still better than WoW, which lops off that pesky mouseclicking skill part.
Edit: Besides, if you thought D2 required a lot of studying to excel, you really ought to play more RPGs..
"Because "half-assed" is not a "style"." - DragoonWraith, champion of character customization and legimitate art direction in D3
Manual stat distribution means that your Wizard character can be as strong as a tank while a Barbarian can be made as fragile as a dry branch. That doesn't make any sense and defies the basic postulates of class distinction they want to achieve in 3. You will still be able to make a fully tanked-out Wizzard by wearing gear with high amounts of armour and vitality, as any class can experiment with any kind of gear now, and since most of the stat points will be coming from your gear (that probably means over 50%), but some classes should still have their own distinct predispositions for certain roles. Otherwise you're just picking your spells and character model. Bleh.
Manual stats = limitations. Manual stats = small item pools. Manual stats = imbalance.
This feels like trying to explain to a child that something is harmful and the child keeps crying until it feels it on it's own skin. Hopefully the few of you will understand things a bit more clearly when you get a chance to play D3. The remark of who should be playing more RPGs is on YOU.
And why is it bad to want to make a game even for everyone? Allow new players to come into the game and enjoy the world Blizzard has made? Are you afraid a new generation of gamers may come in and, as your generation says, "Uberpwnzer" you?
Actually, I have played Diablo 2, for many years, and I have played WoW, for about a year, and from what I have seen, WoW is quite a bit more complex then Diablo 2.
Ok, Final fantasy, Breath of Fire, Dungeons and Dragons, Diablo 2, pick the one that is not like the others!
Yup, Diablo 2 is the oddball. (A good game, but athe oddball out of the group none-the-less.)
I think that's what they want... A wizard tank or something...
I think they should've balanced the stats a bit... I mean there are only 4, as Equinox said, and they are Blizzard... they should be able to do it.
I guess it's settled now, it's gonna be auto. It doesn't really bother me but I think it would've been better if they just fixed them
PS: I love Shifter's sig
EDIT: My god, I didn't know my sig was that big... I'm gonna shrink it